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fcastle
12-03-2009, 5:03 PM
Hello Fellow CalGunners,

I have a problem and I would like your thoughts and feedback on it.

I have a brand new PTR-91 KFM4 (that's the 16" barrel with the 6-position M4 type stock). I have fired only commercial 308 ammo through it, and even with commercial ammo, after only 15-20 rounds, the empty brass do not eject. They get stuck in the chamber. And by stuck, I mean so bad that I have to kick the bolt open.

By the way, when it does eject, it ejects perfectly. My point is the thing doesn't even pull the empties out of the chamber, and I've checked the bolt over, too. That's all good- the bolt seems correctly spaced, the rollers are good, etc.

I've thoroughly cleaned the chamber with the proper HK chamber brush, even had it professionally cleaned using sonic wave bath, which is a technique that cleans the gun thoroughly. Still the problem persists- after the first 15-20 (or 25) rounds, the problem is back- empty brass does not eject- they don't even want to come out of the chamber!

I contacted PTR and they said, well, certain ammo does not work through our rifles. They cite ammo that has a lacquer finish doesn't work (but I only used commercial ammo!). They sent me a nice list of ammo do's and don'ts, and they claim that you can only use 308 ammo, no 7.62, no surplus, etc. They haven't offered any further explanation than that.

Now, I'm not an expert on HKs or the G3, but it seems to me that a 'battle rifle' copy of the famous G3 should be able to handle less than pristine commercial ammo. I do know, however, that the original G3s were tough as nails and could fire anything you fed through them. I'm told the HK91s are the same and do not have these problems.

So, fellow CalGunners- what is your opinion? What should I do? I would appreciate any and all comments or ideas.

Thanks very much,

NSR500
12-03-2009, 5:41 PM
How old is your PTR? There was a batch with tight chambers out there.

NSR500
12-03-2009, 5:44 PM
Nevermind... I just re-read your post and you day that it is new. But the problem sounds like the problem a batch of older one had. I'd push to have it sent back so they can check the chamber and flutes.

fcastle
12-03-2009, 6:20 PM
Thanks NSR.

I don't know how old it is- I bought it in June '09, and it was probably with the vendor for a while, but I don't know how long.

By brand new what I meant was that it was not used.

NSR500
12-03-2009, 6:54 PM
Try some milsurp or steel cased ammo in your PTR to see if it has a problem. Commercial brass is thinner/softer so maybe it is expanding really tight into the chamber.
I've seen properly chambered and functioning CETME ejecting brass even without an extractor.

Barney Gumble
12-03-2009, 7:15 PM
Read this thread: http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110771

97F1504RAD
12-03-2009, 8:08 PM
What brand of commercial .308 re you using. I would get some American Eagle or Remington UMC and try that. If the rifle still malfunctions on those two brands then get back in touch with PTR and tell them it will not function with those brands since those are two of the brands they suggest. The problem is the chamber in the newer PTR's does not have the flutes cut as deeply as a HK91/G3. The barrels are made by TC and have very tight tolerances. This also appears to be sporadic with which rifles it effects and which it doesn't. Also the rifle will shoot 7.62x51 just not some brands here is a link to that info.

I know before i purchased mine I sent them a email asking if 7.62x51 could be shot out of the rifle and was told yes but that certain brands do cause issues.
What are the first 4 digits of your serial number? Is it a AWXXXX series?

http://www.ptr91.com/techinfo.html#ammunition

Sig357
12-03-2009, 9:55 PM
Milsurp runs great in my ptr. However, it does not like commercial ammo.

a1fabweld
12-03-2009, 10:40 PM
That sucks. I have a friend who had similar problems with a batch of German surplus about a year ago. The cases wouldn't get lodged in there though like yours. Fortunately for me, all 4 of my PTR's have fed & ejected 100%.

lehn20
12-03-2009, 10:43 PM
It should run anything and everything. If not, sent it back.
It is a battlerifle. I refuse to believe in only certain ammo should be used. BS IMO.

97F1504RAD
12-04-2009, 7:29 AM
Actually the PTR is not considered a "Battle Rifle" They market it as a Target Rifle. Not saying I agree but that is what they have chosen to do. And they have made a few manufacturing mistakes that seem to prevent them from running anything and everything.

Here is the ammo warning that comes with the rifel and is posted on the site.

Ammunition:
PTR 91 INC, Rifles are newly manufactured and are made to exacting standards and close tolerances. These rifles are made to function with commercial factory.308 cal ammunition. We do not recommend the use of reloads or of surplus ammunition. If surplus ammunition is used beware that this ammunition varies from manufacturer to manufacture, lot to lot, year to year, components used and processes in manufacturing. All this ammunition is not made to exact specification. We have found that some of this ammunition has caused problems in our rifles because they use a tar like sealant in their water proofing. When this ammunition is used in our rifles the sealant melts and coats the chamber. This causes failures to extract and to chamber. Afterwards any ammunition that is used will have the same problem if the chamber and the bore are not cleaned thoroughly. We have found surplus ammunition from the following countries/manufactures that have caused this problem in our rifles. That we know of at this time.


South African

Winchester white boxes marked 7.62,

Venezuela Cavim

Austrian (Hirtenberger)

Some lots of German

British (under powered) will not cycle action

Indian (Over powered)

If you have used this ammunition and have had problems you need to clean the chamber and the bore out thoroughly before using any other ammunition. Then try commercial .308 like Federal 150gr fmj or Remington 150 gr fmj to function test the rifle.


Note: If a rifle is returned to us for repair due to extraction and feeding problems and it is determined that it is caused by the use of these types of ammunition, the owner will be charged gunsmith time, ammunition cost and returned shipping.




Also DSA has this same warning on the FAL's so it's not just PTR.

http://www.dsarms.com/ammowarn.asp

Whiterook
12-04-2009, 8:53 AM
Id send it in, I built a g3 clone on virgin fmp parts kit and it eats anything I feed it including 150 american eagle and 150 wolf. And I will put it up against any ranch mini 14 in a shell winging contest.:eek:

wash
12-04-2009, 9:26 AM
Wow, a fluted chamber and you still get stuck cases?

I thought the beauty of the HK was that it would eat anything (and chew up the brass).

I've had good success with South African 7.62x51 in my FAL's, it seems to burn pretty clean.

Barney Gumble
12-04-2009, 9:44 AM
Wow, a fluted chamber and you still get stuck cases?

I thought the beauty of the HK was that it would eat anything (and chew up the brass).

I've had good success with South African 7.62x51 in my FAL's, it seems to burn pretty clean.

Yes but it's not an HK.

sd1023x
12-04-2009, 10:02 AM
Thats a lame excuse blaming ammunition for function of the weapon. SA and Hirtenberger is some pretty nice surplus. I have a JLD Axxxx and I have shot nothing but hirtenberger and SA it is one of my go to battle rifles.

Think it is BS when a manufacturer excludes an entire range of ammunition, maybe one or two brands it didn't like, I'd understand, but saying all surplus? On their website they advertise the caliber as 7.62mm NATO/.308. That is obviously false.

97F1504RAD
12-04-2009, 3:54 PM
Thats a lame excuse blaming ammunition for function of the weapon. SA and Hirtenberger is some pretty nice surplus. I have a JLD Axxxx and I have shot nothing but hirtenberger and SA it is one of my go to battle rifles.

Think it is BS when a manufacturer excludes an entire range of ammunition, maybe one or two brands it didn't like, I'd understand, but saying all surplus? On their website they advertise the caliber as 7.62mm NATO/.308. That is obviously false.

That is one of the older model ones that does not have the same barrel or issues with ammo that the new ones have. They switched barrel makers and TC Contender is now making the barrels they have not cut the flutes deep enough for one thing and they also say it is a match grade barrel according to them. Also can you please show me where on PTR's site they market it as being a 7.62x51 rifle? I think the onnly place you see 7.62 is in the description of the PTR91F all others say .308

sd1023x
12-04-2009, 6:21 PM
That is one of the older model ones that does not have the same barrel or issues with ammo that the new ones have. They switched barrel makers and TC Contender is now making the barrels they have not cut the flutes deep enough for one thing and they also say it is a match grade barrel according to them. Also can you please show me where on PTR's site they market it as being a 7.62x51 rifle? I think the onnly place you see 7.62 is in the description of the PTR91F all others say .308

I'm aware of the issue with awxxxx ptr's v axxxx ptr's. Just chiming in BS. And yeah, PTR91F. I just checked my model, not all the other models. But sadly, until they take it upon themselves to fix this, I couldn't recommend a PTR to one of my friends.

buffybuster
12-04-2009, 6:27 PM
If it was manufactured with the H&K spec fluted chamber, it should not even need an extractor for the cases to come out of the chamber. The delayed roller blowback action with the correct fluted chamber will operate for quite a few rounds without an extractor...

97F1504RAD
12-04-2009, 8:40 PM
I'm aware of the issue with awxxxx ptr's v axxxx ptr's. Just chiming in BS. And yeah, PTR91F. I just checked my model, not all the other models. But sadly, until they take it upon themselves to fix this, I couldn't recommend a PTR to one of my friends.

Then make sure not to recommend any DSA rifles either since they have the same ammo warnings as well.

I think having an ammo warning on any of these so called battle rifles is really stupid. However many firearms manufactures have similar warnings about using certain ammo. I think it is just being overblown with the
PTR because people believe it is a battle rifle. Not to mention that it seems to be differrent from one rifle to the next. I think one thing people are overlooking is that PTR has not marketed it as a battle rifle but has in fact marketed them as a Target Rifle.

And it is still a awesome rifle regardless. IT would be nice if someone could cut the flutes to the proper depth which is what the issue seems to be.

lehn20
12-06-2009, 4:41 AM
Target rifle or battle rifle, who cares~! People paid big money for it, so it better run whe you pull the trigger!!!

Same goes for 1911s.. Who wants to buy a 3K 1911 and then have to send it out for a reliability package. Its insane!!!!!!!!!!!

tiger222
12-06-2009, 8:30 AM
it sounds like the chamber is underflutted ~ do you have a pic of the spent brass? There should be lots of carbon streaks on the casing. What you can do is get an AR15 chamber brush, put a few 2" square cleaning patches on it and then some jb paste or similar and install it only a cleaning rod, then into an electric drill and polish the chamber. Then clean out the chamber and flutes with an HK chamber brush and rod, from the jb paste and try again. If that doesn't work, I'd send the rifle back to PTR and ask for a new barrel.

HK germany has never made a bad barrel that I've come across, clone makers generally can do it, but seem to miss the mark alot.

fcastle
12-06-2009, 8:25 PM
Thanks everyone. I really appreciate everyone's input.

Here are some answers to your questions. The serial number on my rifle is AWxxxx, so it seems to be the newer generation with the Thompson barrels.

For those of you who asked- I thoroughly scrubbed the chamber using a .50 cal brass brush, as well as the HK chamber brush. I even had the darn thing professionally cleaned, sonic washed, etc. None of that has not done any good- the problem persists.

I mean, to use only a small selection of perfect commercial ammunition in a 'battle rifle' seems crazy and many of you agreed. The fact that they claim this is a 'target rifle' to me says that they know of the problem and they're trying to avoid the problem by renaming it something else. But the problem is there and no marketing magic is going to correct it.

I would love to send the rifle back, but I do not have a return authorization from PTR. They sent me a fluff email with their ammo 'disclaimer' and I wrote back that their response was unacceptable. Name one original or surplus battle rifle that comes with an ammo disclaimer- just one. And no, DSA and PTR do not count. A true 'target' rifle, I would understand, but a copy of the venerable G3/HK91 needing special ammo seems completely unreasonable.

I've asked them politely to fix the problem, but they have not responded to my request. Who knows if they will... ?

BTW- I have just recently spoken to several reputable and well-known HK gunsmiths and they unanimously said that the problem is the under-fluting of the chamber in the 'newer' TC barrels. There is even talk among these guys that PTR is aware of this problem. But since they're choosing to re-market their product with a different name (target rifle) only indicates their disinterest in correcting the problem.

At this point, I have to say that I am deeply disappointed with PTR. This sort of thing reminds me of Coharie Arms and their nonsense. PTR is better than this (aren't they?).

Here is the best part- my rifle has the 16" barrel. The only commercial barrels available with the correct fluting specification are 17.7" or 17.75" which means that I'd have to change the cocking tube, as well as the forearm handle, not to mention the labor and shipping costs. All in all, it's going to cost a good $700-$1100 to do this, depending whom I send it to.

What would you guys do if you were in my place? Spend a total of nearly $2000 (the rifle cost + 'repair' costs) to get a PTR to 'run properly' or sell it and get a used HK911, etc?

Confused and disillusioned,

HKS

Barney Gumble
12-07-2009, 11:32 AM
I suspect this has been covered in detail on hkpro.com. Have you read everything you can there on this topic?

That said, why can't you buy the longer barrel and have it cut down?

Alternatively you could just sell your rifle and get a 91F. Yes it's a longer barrel but it's not a big difference and you can always get an HK collapsible stock if you want to shorten it up a little.

97F1504RAD
12-07-2009, 8:02 PM
What brands of ammo have you used so far?

And it has been covered in great lengths over at hkpro.com

In fact a new PTR owner posted today and her is what he has to say. His seems to be eating anything he puts in it just about.

http://hkpro.com/forum/showpost.php?p=846832&postcount=1

fcastle
12-09-2009, 8:41 PM
I've used the following:

MagTech (brand new); stops working after 10-15 rounds
Winchester; stops working after 10-15 rounds
Federal; works pretty well
American Tactical Imports 7.62x51: stopped after 8 rounds

Mind you, I have to clean the hell out of the chamber before switching ammunition.

At this point, I am beyond frustrated. PTR doesn't seem to think that this is a problem.

So, yes, I can get a brand new barrel with the correct specifications and cut it down, get it installed, etc., but why should I have to do that, when in fact, it's PTR's (vendor's) fault? A new barrel is ~$200, then to get it installed is anywhere between $250-450 depending on who gets to work on it, as well as possibly having to get a new cocking tube, forearm, etc., we're talking over $700.

Now I ask you- is this fair?

NSR500
12-09-2009, 9:03 PM
A competent HK gunsmith can rebarrel that rifle without having to mess with the cocking tube, or anything else.

high_revs
12-09-2009, 9:06 PM
I have a PTR-91F (18" barrel). The only problems I had was that it was ejecting hard. It was putting dents on the brass. Granted, I was using .308 loads (loads I put together learning to reload). It's only 147gr bullet too. I only took a few shots but will try my PRV Partizan, maybe the blackhills or Federal Gold Match and see what happens. I do want to replace that stock first. Only shooting irons here too. The trigger is nothing to be desired!

sd1023x
12-09-2009, 9:45 PM
I've used the following:

MagTech (brand new); stops working after 10-15 rounds
Winchester; stops working after 10-15 rounds
Federal; works pretty well
American Tactical Imports 7.62x51: stopped after 8 rounds

Mind you, I have to clean the hell out of the chamber before switching ammunition.

At this point, I am beyond frustrated. PTR doesn't seem to think that this is a problem.

So, yes, I can get a brand new barrel with the correct specifications and cut it down, get it installed, etc., but why should I have to do that, when in fact, it's PTR's (vendor's) fault? A new barrel is ~$200, then to get it installed is anywhere between $250-450 depending on who gets to work on it, as well as possibly having to get a new cocking tube, forearm, etc., we're talking over $700.

Now I ask you- is this fair?

wasn't someone on hkpro offering to cut the flutes deeper?

Barney Gumble
12-10-2009, 12:03 AM
I don't see why this is so hard.

PTR91 sent you a list of ammo that should work. Test out the ammo on the list and if more than a couple of those brands fail, send the rifle back. If it shoots that ammo fine, IMHO you're stuck with the rifle. Sell it and get something else that you like better.

redcliff
12-10-2009, 4:39 AM
I think the fact that PTR is manufacturing a 16" barrel/m4 stocked rifle with a tight target chamber is ridiculous. I don't know what the OP can do other than get it to fail with recommended ammo and try to get PTR to fix the barrel fluting problem.

My registerred HK and SAR models eat anything I throw at them and ask for more.

BTW case denting is pretty normal on these type rifles as they try to throw the emptys into the next zip code. HK used to sell a port buffer if I recall to help prevent brass damage, or at least to keep brass marks off your rifle.

97F1504RAD
12-10-2009, 7:39 AM
I've used the following:

MagTech (brand new); stops working after 10-15 rounds
Winchester; stops working after 10-15 rounds
Federal; works pretty well
American Tactical Imports 7.62x51: stopped after 8 rounds

Mind you, I have to clean the hell out of the chamber before switching ammunition.

At this point, I am beyond frustrated. PTR doesn't seem to think that this is a problem.

So, yes, I can get a brand new barrel with the correct specifications and cut it down, get it installed, etc., but why should I have to do that, when in fact, it's PTR's (vendor's) fault? A new barrel is ~$200, then to get it installed is anywhere between $250-450 depending on who gets to work on it, as well as possibly having to get a new cocking tube, forearm, etc., we're talking over $700.

Now I ask you- is this fair?

You need to use American Eagle and/or Remington UMC myabe even some WOLF as I hear it works well, and then see if those ammos work. The list you gave has one of the ammos they suggest NOT using whihc is the Winchester. If those give you trouble then call PTR and tell them it won't eat those and send the rifle back.

I have a PTR-91F (18" barrel). The only problems I had was that it was ejecting hard. It was putting dents on the brass. Granted, I was using .308 loads (loads I put together learning to reload). It's only 147gr bullet too. I only took a few shots but will try my PRV Partizan, maybe the blackhills or Federal Gold Match and see what happens. I do want to replace that stock first. Only shooting irons here too. The trigger is nothing to be desired!

You can get a trigger job from Bill Springfield and it is a huge improvement. Well worth the money. I think it is 55.00

high_revs
12-10-2009, 1:52 PM
You can get a trigger job from Bill Springfield and it is a huge improvement. Well worth the money. I think it is 55.00

Yep, he worked on my 3 AR triggers. Am figuring out what else to send him next for a batch (ptr and marlin 795 are ones for sure).