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Thrasher416
12-03-2009, 3:06 PM
I've been itching to build an ak for a long time and now I have the money. I have no experience building from parts kits but I've read up as much as I could about it on past threads here and akfiles. I'm planning on putting together a Romy G kit as a featureless build but I need some questions answered.

1. Whats the best way to finish the metal parts? Blueing or Duracoat, etc? I'd like to have the classic Ak blueing but if its too much trouble I'd settle for paint.

2. Is it better to finish the metal before or after the rifle's put together?

3. Are pre-1980 Romy G kits superior to the ones manufactured later?

4. Since I've never built a rifle before would a bending a flat be too much trouble? Would buying a NDS receiver make things a lot easier?

69Mach1
12-03-2009, 3:50 PM
Romanians are parkerized, not blued. You can if you want to. The finish is applied after the build is done. Romy G kits should be in better shape. If it's your first build, an NDS3 or NDS1 is recommended. Go to a build party. Lots of experienced builders can help you. Bending a flat may take up most of your day.

L.A. Brigade
12-03-2009, 4:01 PM
NDS3 $55 shipped.

http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm

wash
12-03-2009, 4:07 PM
Gold plate, you know you want it.

Thrasher416
12-04-2009, 5:19 PM
Thanks for the quick replies.

Wash, I agree with you 100%.:D Unfortunately, my wallet doesn't. :(

grammaton76
12-04-2009, 5:25 PM
NDS receiver is absolutely a no-brainer. UNLESS you're actually going to FULLY heat-treat the receiver, not just the spot treatment some guys like to try and get away with. And even then, you should probably just go NDS unless you really know what you're doing.

With the price of parts kits now, a $55 NDS isn't very expensive, and sure as heck beats putting wear and tear on a parts kit (potentially) stripping down a screwed-up flat build and reinstalling.

BTW, just in case there's any doubt - rivet build. Don't mess with screws.

CSACANNONEER
12-04-2009, 5:28 PM
Using a pre-made receiver, you should be able to build it in one day, at a build party. Building from a flat, figure two full days to complete your rifle. With a flat build, there is a greater sense of accomplishment.

DB2
12-04-2009, 8:45 PM
+ 1 on an NDS.

Don't try a flat on your first build. You want a gun that works.

CSACANNONEER
12-04-2009, 8:49 PM
+ 1 on an NDS.

Don't try a flat on your first build. You want a gun that works.

BS! If you saw how bad my first build looked and how well it shoots, you'ld change your mind. I've seen some pretty ugly flat builds and they all have worked great. After all, we are talking about AKs.

Thrasher416
12-04-2009, 11:59 PM
Grammaton76, I'd definitely do a rivet build, good that you mentioned that though.

I would like to do a flat build, but I did wonder about the spot heat treating though. Has anyone noticed any significant difference between a spot heat treated receiver and a fully heat treated one?

Also, unless I knew someone in the North Bay willing to help me, waiting several months between build parties with an incomplete rifle would probably drive me insane.:banghead:

JeffM
12-05-2009, 12:30 AM
My first was a flat build and is by far my favorite. After over 2k rounds there is no noticeable wear to the FCG holes that were spot heat-treated. It's a proven technique that works. I did however have to re-harden the ejector after noticing peening after the first range session. It's been a perfect shooter ever since.

But if you don't have the time to dedicate to the fitting required on a flat build, a "100%" receiver is the way to go. I'd recommend these: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=242486 over any other receiver out there. I thought NDS receivers were great, and they are, but these receivers are true to spec, not reverse engineered. It makes the gun go together much easier.

And yes, Pre-80 Romy G kits are nicer overall kits.

I laud anyone willing to host a build party now. I've been involved in several as a builder and adviser, but I'd never let my tools be abused like they are at BPs. They can cost thousands of dollars in broken equipment and other tertiary costs. But if you have the opportunity to go to one, especially with the more established builders here, go and build with their help and tools.

grammaton76
12-21-2009, 3:16 PM
Grammaton76, I'd definitely do a rivet build, good that you mentioned that though.

I would like to do a flat build, but I did wonder about the spot heat treating though. Has anyone noticed any significant difference between a spot heat treated receiver and a fully heat treated one?

I've noticed a very significant difference. Saw a guy's AK pistol, which had been transported in a soft case in his trunk, have a bend in the receiver from something relatively light (tire iron, I think) resting on top of it. If you feel the flats which receivers are made of, it isn't very hard stuff unless it's been heat treated to harden it. And spot heat treatment just doesn't cover anything but the FCG holes.

Thrasher416
12-22-2009, 1:11 AM
Since you resurrected this thread I think I should update.

I bought a 1979 Romy G kit from another Calgunner and just folded an AK builder flat the other day. Also, I found out I cannot buy a 100% receiver because I'm only 19:mad:. So far the receiver and parts kit look great, I'm just working on grinding the rails and de-milling the kit. The receiver is already pretty sturdy, I have step down rails on it also which I heard makes it more rigid. Unless someone took a hammer to it I don't think it's going to bend or warp.

This heat treatment question is still bugging me though, is there a way I could heat treat the WHOLE home-built receiver myself, or would that be too intensive and time consuming?

Brendan Sullivan
12-22-2009, 3:10 PM
Heat treating an entire receiver, you have to have a complicated rig that will support and evenly heat the entire thing or areas that receive differing amounts of heat and support will cause warping. Yes, doing the whole receiver is possible, but it's not worth the cost unless you already have access to the tools.

Again, for first builds, the completed receivers are best, but you aren't the only chap who's ever started on a flat. Be thankful you had a Romy G and not a virgin kit to start on.

Just know what your limitations are with the non-hardened receiver and take comfort in having built it yourself.

SJgunguy24
12-22-2009, 3:25 PM
With a demilled kit and a 100% receiver, an experienced builder can have a working gun in a few hours.
Take your time and have a couple people you can call if you run into a problem. Make sure the rivets are done right, if your using a bolt cutter rivet tool. Don't try to set the rivet with the first bite, go a little at a time. If you have the AKbuilder jig or something similar, follow the directions.

hk404me
02-10-2010, 8:24 PM
Thrasher416,

Take a look here about entire receiver heat treating:

http://www.gunco.net/forums/f43/new-zero-warp-heat-treat-method-vid-29575/

I am looking for details on how everything goes together once the flat is bent and heat treated. I have attempted a bunch of searches on AK builds and AK details and haven't come up with much. There was one youtube video, but that's about it. Hopefully, this info would help you out also.

hk404me

hk404me
02-11-2010, 5:50 AM
Thrasher416,

Found this site this morning while doing a search. It is a picture with explanation of the parts involved in the receiver.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62406&highlight=receiver

Hopefully, it will help in your build.

hk404me

OneApart
02-11-2010, 6:06 AM
I would like to do a flat build, but I did wonder about the spot heat treating though. Has anyone noticed any significant difference between a spot heat treated receiver and a fully heat treated one?
:

As far as heat treating is concerned, it is better to fully heat-treat the receiver vs. spot treat. The only problem with doing it yourself is you need a fairly large+hot heat source (hard to control in your backyard for most of us)....

There is temperature sensing paste out there (will burn away at a certain degree mark) which will allow you to control the amount of heat, but if you try and do the whole receiver with a torch you will most likely end up with a warped pretzel of a receiver with some hard spots, and some soft. (also keep in mind you run the risk of overheating it, and it becoming brittle and cracking).

For ease of build, an NDS receiver would save time, but there is nothing like doing it yourself.

If you are considering bending a flat, I have an AK-Builder Bending jig for sale (sorry for the plug everyone)

Good luck with the build !!!

1988
02-11-2010, 8:01 AM
NDS receiver is absolutely a no-brainer. UNLESS you're actually going to FULLY heat-treat the receiver, not just the spot treatment some guys like to try and get away with. And even then, you should probably just go NDS unless you really know what you're doing.

With the price of parts kits now, a $55 NDS isn't very expensive, and sure as heck beats putting wear and tear on a parts kit (potentially) stripping down a screwed-up flat build and reinstalling.

BTW, just in case there's any doubt - rivet build. Don't mess with screws.

+1 on the fully heat-treated receiver.

Technically, I'd prefer to have a fully treated receiver. If you see an AK shooting in slow motion, you'd see how the gun twists and turns under stress.

Most of us can build an AK, but there are AKs and there are better built AKs.... ;)

grammaton76
02-11-2010, 2:11 PM
To fully heat treat a receiver, your best bet is to buy a kiln. Then you're going to need to quench it appropriately. Trying to do it in the back yard (what, overclock a bbq grill or something?) just isn't the same.

Alternatively, after you've already made the receiver 100% you may be able to have a local metal shop heat-treat it for you. Some of them probably have some kilns around - you'd just have to remain on premises until the job is done, as they (probably) don't have an FFL.

Thrasher416
02-12-2010, 3:22 PM
Thanks for the advice guys, but I think I should update where I'm at on this.

As I mentioned earlier, I cannot buy a NDS receiver because I am under 21 years old. Apparently Long Guns are the the only firearms I can buy (if someone finds info debunking this, please let me know).

I bent an AK Builder flat and ground the top rails, and demilled my parts kit at Duraglock's party last month. I currently have all the rivets needed to complete it, and I am ordering a US made slant brake and Piston for 922r compliance. The only thing I need are the receiver bolt rails, if anybody has a set for sale please send me a pm.

As for the heat treatment issue, I'm not too concerned about it anymore. I spoke with a number of people with flat builds that were only spot treated and they had fired thousands of rounds through the rifles with no warping or any other problems. The general consensus seems to be that the barrel will wear out long before the receiver does, at which point it would have to be demilled again anyway.

Thanks again for the advice and the links, the full heat treatment thing just looks like too much of a trial and error thing plus expensive. I might look into the shop kiln though, I think there is a place in Santa Rosa.

grammaton76
02-16-2010, 5:02 PM
As for the heat treatment issue, I'm not too concerned about it anymore. I spoke with a number of people with flat builds that were only spot treated and they had fired thousands of rounds through the rifles with no warping or any other problems. The general consensus seems to be that the barrel will wear out long before the receiver does, at which point it would have to be demilled again anyway.

There's a difference between being worried about the receiver not holding up to use (that's not what the heat treatment guys are talking about) vs the receiver getting bent from things being set on top of your rifle, or it being dropped, etc.

I've seen an AK pistol on a non-treated receiver get an imprint you could see in the metal just from bumping around in its owner's trunk (dent was NOT there prior to him driving to the range with it). It fired just fine and I have no doubt it'd be safe to fire (but with it bending that easily, I could see it becoming unreliable due to binding on the bolt carrier over time) - this is just a matter of overall durability. I would, for example, not feel comfortable transporting it in a trunk in a soft case unless it were fully heat treated.

If you're going to be extra careful about only using a hard case, and consider it just a plinking gun, it's not as big a deal. I just expect more out of my guns, and doing it right at the start would save you some hassle in the long run.