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Bucky G
12-02-2009, 6:47 PM
Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 5469 (d)
"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon"
means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp
in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and
index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed
portion of the trigger while firing.

who's definition is that in italics?
is that written into the code or is it somebody else's interpretation?

because a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon and grip that allows the thumb to be wrapped around it are two different things

Requiem
12-02-2009, 6:50 PM
Oh boy... Heeere we go...

Bucky G
12-02-2009, 6:50 PM
hehehe just checking before I buy one :p

SJgunguy24
12-02-2009, 7:00 PM
This was figured out waaaaay before you got on Calguns.

Bucky G
12-02-2009, 7:11 PM
I'm sure it was
what do you mean by figured out?

SJgunguy24
12-02-2009, 7:12 PM
Legal definition of a pistol grip.

nn3453
12-02-2009, 7:34 PM
Please do a search. This one has been asked a million times ever since OLLs first gained popularity.

Librarian
12-02-2009, 7:48 PM
Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 5469 (d)
"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon"
means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp
in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and
index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed
portion of the trigger while firing.

who's definition is that in italics?
is that written into the code or is it somebody else's interpretation?

because a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon and grip that allows the thumb to be wrapped around it are two different things

To answer your question, that's the definition in California's Code of Regulations: Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, 5469



BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE
CAPACITY MAGAZINES
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS
This database is current through 11/20/09 Register 2009, No. 47
5469. Definitions.

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

(b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12276.5(i), Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12276.1, 12280 and 12285, Penal Code.



It's law.

five.five-six
12-02-2009, 7:50 PM
I <3 pistol grips

9mmepiphany
12-02-2009, 9:23 PM
because a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon and grip that allows the thumb to be wrapped around it are two different things

you're misreading the definition in italics.

i can't figure out where you got the above bolded section. the only reference to thumb is to delineate the web of the hand

AndrewMendez
12-02-2009, 9:28 PM
stuff like THIS is what we should STICKY so folks can find it easy! Left there unlocked with the Original post having all the pertaining details and how they are interpreted and regulated.

Can you imagine all the stickys???
Too many stickys = people not reading them as often

Bimmer2
12-25-2009, 9:03 PM
I've got a OLL with a Raddlock, so this is simply my curiosity...

I searched, and I found this thread, so I'm posting here. Please don't tell me to search or rant about how newbies should do searches.

d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

If I understand this, any buttstock configuration which puts the web of the hand above the exposed trigger is NOT a pistol grip.

I've got a MagPul MIAD with the fattest backstrap on it. The fatter backstraps don't just make the grip fatter, they also move the web of the hand DOWN.

Why doesn't somebody just design a new "non-pistol grip" that would move the web of the hand UP a bit from USGI? Wouldn't that NOT be an illegal "pistol grip"?

Bimmer

aplinker
12-25-2009, 9:15 PM
If there were no way to grip it, at all, with the web of the hand below the "magic line" then it would be GTG.

The issue with ARs is that line is quite high.

Look through MMG's .pdf he submitted on behalf of the MMG, look at the modded MMGs (a la Hopi IIRC) and also the Hammerhead to see how they dealt with the issue. Those are legal.

You can also find my thought experiment (search ghirardelli) on another way to do it.

I've got a OLL with a Raddlock, so this is simply my curiosity...

I searched, and I found this thread, so I'm posting here. Please don't tell me to search or rant about how newbies should do searches.

d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

If I understand this, any buttstock configuration which puts the web of the hand above the exposed trigger is NOT a pistol grip.

I've got a MagPul MIAD with the fattest backstrap on it. The fatter backstraps don't just make the grip fatter, they also move the web of the hand DOWN.

Why doesn't somebody just design a new "non-pistol grip" that would move the web of the hand UP a bit from USGI? Wouldn't that NOT be an illegal "pistol grip"?

Bimmer

tankerman
12-25-2009, 9:43 PM
:banghead::90::beatdeadhorse5::banghead::90:

Dude, you cranked out 400+ posts in the last 2-3 months, maybe slow down and start reading some threads.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 9:52 PM
This thread makes me have butterflies in my stomach

tomd1584
12-25-2009, 9:53 PM
I dont know why we have stickies, cuz it doesnt seem like anyone reads them.

818gtiguy
12-25-2009, 9:58 PM
:banghead::90::beatdeadhorse5::banghead::90:

Dude, you cranked out 400+ posts in the last 2-3 months, maybe slow down and start reading some threads.

:iagree:

IsaacGlass
12-26-2009, 12:18 AM
:banghead::90::beatdeadhorse5::banghead::90:

Dude, you cranked out 400+ posts in the last 2-3 months, maybe slow down and start reading some threads.

tankerman great avatar :thumbsup: and plus 1

Bucky G
12-26-2009, 11:50 AM
:banghead::90::beatdeadhorse5::banghead::90:

Dude, you cranked out 400+ posts in the last 2-3 months, maybe slow down and start reading some threads.

maybe in your zest of posting 7,000 plus replies you fail at reading original posts... really it's not that hard

So read mine again, I was asking where the quote came from that says "means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
because it's not in PC 12276.1... I know because I bothered to read it

I just wanted to know if that quote was from DOJ document or whether it was somebody else's interpretation of a law

I did find it in Bill Lockyer's letter to Robinson Armament, without the help of internet commandos that jump on people's butts instead of reading before replying.

thanks!

http://images.slashdot.org/articles/08/08/14/142201-1.png

Fate
12-26-2009, 3:21 PM
maybe in your zest of posting 7,000 plus replies you fail at reading original posts... really it's not that hard

So read mine again, I was asking where the quote came from that says "means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
because it's not in PC 12276.1... I know because I bothered to read it

I just wanted to know if that quote was from DOJ document or whether it was somebody else's interpretation of a law

I did find it in Bill Lockyer's letter to Robinson Armament, without the help of internet commandos that jump on people's butts instead of reading before replying.
Hmm. Pity you didn't even bother to read your own thread. Librarian posted it back up in post #9. It's in Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, 5469

Here it is again in its entirety, but not quoted. Maybe you'll read it this time.

CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE
CAPACITY MAGAZINES
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

5469. Definitions.

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

(b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12276.5(i), Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12276.1, 12280 and 12285, Penal Code.

818gtiguy
12-26-2009, 4:03 PM
Hmm. Pity you didn't even bother to read your own thread. Librarian posted it back up in post #9. It's in Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, 5469

Here it is again in its entirety, but not quoted. Maybe you'll read it this time.

CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE
CAPACITY MAGAZINES
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

5469. Definitions.

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

(b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12276.5(i), Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12276.1, 12280 and 12285, Penal Code.

You just got "schooled"!:p

Bimmer2
12-26-2009, 4:21 PM
If there were no way to grip it, at all, with the web of the hand below the "magic line" then it would be GTG...

Look through MMG's .pdf he submitted on behalf of the MMG, look at the modded MMGs (a la Hopi IIRC) and also the Hammerhead to see how they dealt with the issue. Those are legal.

You can also find my thought experiment (search ghirardelli) on another way to do it.

Yes, something like this is what I'm thinking of...

No offense to the whoever invented the Hammerhead, but it's ugly and looks like it's not comfortable. It looks like a geometric building block, not something to be held in the human hand.

The Ghirardelli (not "Ghiradelli"?!) looks interesting. There ought to be a way to replace only the pistol grip with one angled backwards more, and perhaps replace the trigger itself to slightly change the angle...

Bimmer

tankerman
12-26-2009, 8:15 PM
Yep, that's me "Internet Commando".
Go ahead, reinvent the 'wheel' for us since it sounds like you've got everything figured out bro. :thumbsup:

Guess those other +/- 1,000 threads on this same subject didn't address your 'unique' ideas and questions.:rolleyes:

Regards,
Mr. Internet Commando.
maybe in your zest of posting 7,000 plus replies you fail at reading original posts... really it's not that hard

So read mine again, I was asking where the quote came from that says "means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
because it's not in PC 12276.1... I know because I bothered to read it

I just wanted to know if that quote was from DOJ document or whether it was somebody else's interpretation of a law

I did find it in Bill Lockyer's letter to Robinson Armament, without the help of internet commandos that jump on people's butts instead of reading before replying.

thanks!

killshot44
12-27-2009, 1:50 PM
Poor Bucky. No Christmas spirit 'round here.

Bucky G
12-27-2009, 4:58 PM
Poor Bucky. No Christmas spirit 'round here.

lol

I'm cool
the inerweb is serious bizness :D