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View Full Version : I don't wan't to get involved, I just want to sell guns


AntiBubba 2.1
11-09-2005, 4:31 PM
Today I returned to Old Sacramento Armoury to see if they would be putting flyers out for Sac County's call for the RKBA ballot initiative in 2006. I was in on Monday, but the counter guy wasn't optimistic-he said the owner never gets involved in anything political. Well, the counter guy was right. He took my flyer in to the owner's office. The owner never emerged, but the answer was "NO!"

No.

A lot of words come to mind, but the foremost one is "TREASONOUS". If you sell guns, you ARE involved. If you want to avoid controversy you should open an Arts & Crafts shop. I really liked that place, but I'll never spend a penny there again.

And I hope you won't either.

Old Sacramento Armoury (Sacramento's Oldest Gun Store)
2215 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95816

(916) 446-7079

oldsacarmoury@comcast.net



If you've been there before, let them know why you won't be returning.

If you've never stopped in, let them understand why you never will.

blacklisted
11-09-2005, 4:43 PM
Today I returned to Old Sacramento Armoury to see if they would be putting flyers out for Sac County's call for the RKBA ballot initiative in 2006. I was in on Monday, but the counter guy wasn't optimistic-he said the owner never gets involved in anything political. Well, the counter guy was right. He took my flyer in to the owner's office. The owner never emerged, but the answer was "NO!"

No.

A lot of words come to mind, but the foremost one is "TREASONOUS". If you sell guns, you ARE involved. If you want to avoid controversy you should open an Arts & Crafts shop. I really liked that place, but I'll never spend a penny there again.

And I hope you won't either.

Old Sacramento Armoury (Sacramento's Oldest Gun Store)
2215 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95816

(916) 446-7079

oldsacarmoury@comcast.net



If you've been there before, let them know why you won't be returning.

If you've never stopped in, let them understand why you never will.

Looks like they don't want the business of citizens of this state. Maybe a bulk of their business is law enforcement.

C.G.
11-09-2005, 5:01 PM
The two local shops refused RKBA flyers as well "it is against company policy."

jnojr
11-09-2005, 5:08 PM
This really doesn't surprise me. Not in California.

Enjoy your guns while you've got 'em. I've come to the conclusion that, barring a favorable SCOTUS decision, gun rights are going to disappear from California. And, honestly, it's getting hard for me to care... it won't affect me.

BigMac
11-09-2005, 9:14 PM
Kinda an odd policy. Head in the sand comes to mind and even before I got into the gun business I saw this alot. The guy that owns that place was the best friend of the guy that established my shop. I have never met him and dont know anything about him.

I have a big door I put up flyers on. I keep looking for a place to hang a big cork board I have for putting up stuff like that. I get flyers from the NRA the, elk hunters foundation, machine gun shoots or whatever. .

Turbinator
11-09-2005, 9:53 PM
Aren't these the same guys who sell other firearms under a different name? New Helvetica Co. or something like that?

Turby

Ravenslair
11-10-2005, 9:17 AM
That is too bad. I used to like going there. Have you checked with River City Gun Exchange to see if they will post them?

2358 Fruitridge Road
Sacramento, CA 95822
916-428-0377
dleong2_at_sbcglobal.net

I recently went there a few days ago. They seem like the kind that would support it.

chickenfried
11-10-2005, 9:37 AM
A poster on thehighroad, reports a similar attitude at calguns.net favorite gun shop :p, LA Guns.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165094

C.G.
11-10-2005, 9:47 AM
Kinda an odd policy. Head in the sand comes to mind and even before I got into the gun business I saw this alot. The guy that owns that place was the best friend of the guy that established my shop. I have never met him and dont know anything about him.

I have a big door I put up flyers on. I keep looking for a place to hang a big cork board I have for putting up stuff like that. I get flyers from the NRA the, elk hunters foundation, machine gun shoots or whatever. .

And that is part of the reason why I would drive 2 hours to do business at your place:) ; the other is that my local shops don't know diddly and don't care that they know diddly.:(

Trader Jack
11-10-2005, 6:17 PM
Kinda an odd policy. Head in the sand comes to mind and even before I got into the gun business I saw this alot. The guy that owns that place was the best friend of the guy that established my shop. I have never met him and dont know anything about him.

I have a big door I put up flyers on. I keep looking for a place to hang a big cork board I have for putting up stuff like that. I get flyer's from the NRA the, elk hunters foundation, machine gun shoots or whatever. .

Trader Sports in San Leandro will post the flyer's as well.
There are many gun dealers that will not make waves for fear of losing there permit to sell. Trader Sports is not that way. I have heard that the owner "Tony" will fight tooth and nail for his rights to sell firearms.
However they are not without sin (in my opinion) I stopped by there last week and there two young gold teeth hip hoppers who reeked of marijuana. You could smell it all over the store and there was no question where it was coming from. They were buying shotgun shells, sboats no less and had to be showen hot to load a pump shotgun.

Whats my point? They never should have been sold that ammo and should have been asked to leave but from what I saw the money from the sale was more important.:mad:

Stevil
11-10-2005, 9:25 PM
Kinda an odd policy. Head in the sand comes to mind and even before I got into the gun business I saw this alot. The guy that owns that place was the best friend of the guy that established my shop. I have never met him and dont know anything about him.

I have a big door I put up flyers on. I keep looking for a place to hang a big cork board I have for putting up stuff like that. I get flyers from the NRA the, elk hunters foundation, machine gun shoots or whatever. .

Where is your shop?

Turbinator
11-10-2005, 10:38 PM
BigMac runs Irvington Arms in Fremont, CA. Give him a go, he's a nice guy always ready for a chat and seems very helpful, from what I've seen on this board.

Turby

acegunnr
11-11-2005, 8:11 AM
+1 For Big Mac

He sold me my Yugo SKS (calguns group buy) and took the time to show me how to break it down, cosmoline and all.

jdberger
11-11-2005, 11:06 AM
+1 for BigMac. He even lets my young-uns hang out.

Rascal
11-11-2005, 1:43 PM
+3 for BigMac.
Would rather travel 100 miles to do business with Martin then support idoits like Fresno Guns. :)

dwtt
11-11-2005, 1:52 PM
If you do go to Irvington Arms, you'll have to like big black dogs.

jdberger
11-11-2005, 1:55 PM
That thing keeps licking my kids. I think that he's tasting them.:o

bwiese
11-11-2005, 2:20 PM
Trader Sports in San Leandro will post the flyer's as well.
Whats my point? They never should have been sold that ammo and should have been asked to leave but from what I saw the money from the sale was more important.:mad:

I've heard Tony C. (owner) has been sued several times for "lookism".

Bill Wiese
San Jose

jdberger
11-11-2005, 2:31 PM
I've heard Tony C. (owner) has been sued several times for "lookism".

Bill Wiese
San Jose

What's 'lookism'? (sorry if I'm being dense, here):confused:

blacklisted
11-11-2005, 5:10 PM
Second, about the kind of people Trader Sports sells stuff to. I don't think I posted this anecdote on this forum yet, so here goes. I was at Traders, buying something, and the paperwork took about 45 minutes to do, so I spent a lot of time at the counter waiting.

A gentleman comes in, stands next to me. Black guy, tight jeans, loose-fitting black leather jacket, dark shades, baseball cap, a tad too much gold jewelry. Cross between a tough guy hired killer from a spy movie, and a drug dealer from the ghetto. Staff asks: "What can we help you with". Customer reaches inside his leather jacket, pulls out a smallish pistol, puts it on the counter, says he needs a box of ammo for it. Staff takes one look at the pistol, says "This is caliber suchandsuch", gets one box of rounds, puts it on the counter. Customer picks up the box of rounds, opens it; pick up the gun, pops the mag out, and starts loading the mag right there. Staff: "Would you please not load the gun while you are still in the store". Customer takes the gun (without mag), puts it back inside his jacket, continues to load the mag. Staff gets quite firm: "Sir, I meant would you please leave the ammo in the box until you are outside the store". Customer gets an angry look, puts the mag into his pocket, pulls out a twenty, hands it to the clerk, waits for his change, and leaves. As far as I remember, the customer didn't say anything else in this exchange. His drivers license was never checked, but he didn't look like he might be under 21.

AFAIK, the customer commited at least two felonies: concealed carry and brandishing (I'm assuming he does not have a CCW, because CCWs are so extremely rare in the bay area, and the few people who have CCWs probably act very very differently). Given his looks, I would also guess that he probably commited a few others, for example felon in possession, possession of unregistered handgun, having obtained the handgun without a DROS, and a few controlled substance crimes - but that's profiling, so let's ignore that laundry list.

Should Trader's have sold him the ammo? Good question. The more I think about it, the more I tend towards the following answer: they should not. Because anyone who demonstrates such flagrant disrespect for the law (and for the safety of others) should not be given the opportunity to do harm using the gun. I think the correct reaction should have been for the staffer to hold the customer (which is easy, the staffers at Trader's are all armed), call the police, and report the customer for the actions I described above. In the case of the two hip-hop-happy gentlemen buying shotgunshells described above, the Trader's staff should have also refused to sell them the shells until they sober up; whether the police should be called is a tougher question, I don't see how they committed a serious crime, running around stoned and happy isn't a crime in my book, they were not in possession of any gun other than handling a pump shotgun under supervision of the store clerk, and I don't see anything that disqualifies them from buying ammo, so sending them home would probably have been appropriate.

Most likely, many people will strongly disagree with my view. Bring it on ...

I don't know what the best way is, but I think that calling efforts to ensure that our rights are protected "political" is probably the worst way to go about this.

blacklisted
11-11-2005, 5:13 PM
Second, about the kind of people Trader Sports sells stuff to. I don't think I posted this anecdote on this forum yet, so here goes. I was at Traders, buying something, and the paperwork took about 45 minutes to do, so I spent a lot of time at the counter waiting.

A gentleman comes in, stands next to me. Black guy, tight jeans, loose-fitting black leather jacket, dark shades, baseball cap, a tad too much gold jewelry. Cross between a tough guy hired killer from a spy movie, and a drug dealer from the ghetto. Staff asks: "What can we help you with". Customer reaches inside his leather jacket, pulls out a smallish pistol, puts it on the counter, says he needs a box of ammo for it. Staff takes one look at the pistol, says "This is caliber suchandsuch", gets one box of rounds, puts it on the counter. Customer picks up the box of rounds, opens it; pick up the gun, pops the mag out, and starts loading the mag right there. Staff: "Would you please not load the gun while you are still in the store". Customer takes the gun (without mag), puts it back inside his jacket, continues to load the mag. Staff gets quite firm: "Sir, I meant would you please leave the ammo in the box until you are outside the store". Customer gets an angry look, puts the mag into his pocket, pulls out a twenty, hands it to the clerk, waits for his change, and leaves. As far as I remember, the customer didn't say anything else in this exchange. His drivers license was never checked, but he didn't look like he might be under 21.

AFAIK, the customer commited at least two felonies: concealed carry and brandishing (I'm assuming he does not have a CCW, because CCWs are so extremely rare in the bay area, and the few people who have CCWs probably act very very differently). Given his looks, I would also guess that he probably commited a few others, for example felon in possession, possession of unregistered handgun, having obtained the handgun without a DROS, and a few controlled substance crimes - but that's profiling, so let's ignore that laundry list.

Should Trader's have sold him the ammo? Good question. The more I think about it, the more I tend towards the following answer: they should not. Because anyone who demonstrates such flagrant disrespect for the law (and for the safety of others) should not be given the opportunity to do harm using the gun. I think the correct reaction should have been for the staffer to hold the customer (which is easy, the staffers at Trader's are all armed), call the police, and report the customer for the actions I described above. In the case of the two hip-hop-happy gentlemen buying shotgunshells described above, the Trader's staff should have also refused to sell them the shells until they sober up; whether the police should be called is a tougher question, I don't see how they committed a serious crime, running around stoned and happy isn't a crime in my book, they were not in possession of any gun other than handling a pump shotgun under supervision of the store clerk, and I don't see anything that disqualifies them from buying ammo, so sending them home would probably have been appropriate.

Most likely, many people will strongly disagree with my view. Bring it on ...

I completely agree with this.

Charliegone
11-11-2005, 5:28 PM
First off I would ask the dude if he had a concealed carry. It seems odd that the guy would just take a pistol out and not know what kind of caliber it is. Isn't he the rightful owner? A lawful person would have been much more cautious not to mention more knowledgable towards his/her weapon. If he couldn't show proof of his ccw I would have refused. Not to mention a lesson on the "law."

AntiBubba 2.1
11-11-2005, 5:48 PM
I can certainly understand that a gun shop might not want to draw negative attention. When all the ammo in the state has been serialized, and guns with removable mags has been banned, and shooters are mentioned in the same breath with child molestors-should I try again?

Sorry, but for me, meekly climbing into the boxcar hoping they'll let me go is not an option. Koretz isn't going to leave Old Sac open because they didn't make any waves.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

BigMac
11-11-2005, 6:00 PM
My dog loves small kids, they taste GREAT! I had a little girl in here today that was probably less than two years old. She was eating goldfish crackers her mom was giving her while I was looking at the shotgun she just inherited. Kody walks over to the little girl and VERY gently licks the crumbs off of her. Since my dog is ALOT bigger than she is she starts crying. The poor dog thought he hurt her.

So what is this RKBA flyer anyway. I live under a rock I need to know what your talking about.. Can someone e-mail me a copy?
If it wasn't for the boards I really would be living under a rock:D

C.G.
11-11-2005, 6:35 PM
My dog loves small kids, they taste GREAT! I had a little girl in here today that was probably less than two years old. She was eating goldfish crackers her mom was giving her while I was looking at the shotgun she just inherited. Kody walks over to the little girl and VERY gently licks the crumbs off of her. Since my dog is ALOT bigger than she is she starts crying. The poor dog thought he hurt her.

So what is this RKBA flyer anyway. I live under a rock I need to know what your talking about.. Can someone e-mail me a copy?
If it wasn't for the boards I really would be living under a rock:D

Check your PMs. Sent you one.

PanzerAce
11-11-2005, 8:49 PM
treelogger, I would actually say that BOTH the first and second are near and dear to our heart. After all, without the first, this board would almost certainly not be here.

Stevil
11-11-2005, 9:19 PM
You know that's a real shame as the Old Sac Armory is the only source for second-hand guns in Sacto and has the nicest bunch of knowledgeable guys workin' there, an unusual experience for a Sacto gun store.

I'd be interested in the explanation as-to-why, I'm sure it has to have reason behind it... I'm not attempting to be an apologist, I actually go to NRA Member Council meeting every month so I'm an advocate. Of course you'll catch more monkeys with honey than vinegar, why don't you try getting a meeting with the owner?

jdberger
11-11-2005, 11:18 PM
Treelogger,

I'm gonna have to beat you up a little. Nothing personal.

Regarding a gunshop not wanting to 'get involved' in the RKBA fight:

It is in their interest to get involved. Should members of the press be involved in 1A issues? Sure they should. The customers of gunshops have a right to expect that the establishments they frequent are interested in furthering their collective interests. By abstaining, they hurt themselves financially and hurt their customers. Customers should show their displeasure by voting with their wallets and encourage their friends to do the same.

Regarding Traders and the 'gang bangers':

Lots of gun owners don't know crap about the guns they own. To revisit the 1A analogy, just cause you are illiterate doesn't abrogate your right to free speech.

I worked in a pawnshop for a time and most of my customers were ignorant about gun laws. I did my best to educate them. I let them know if they were illegally carrying or even if they had an illegal weapon. I gave advice when I could. Some folks just didn't know the law.

I also learned that some of the sketchier folks were law abiding citizens who were immersed in a bizzare (to me) culture. You are right about the profiling.

That said, I don't often patronize Traders. All those people snapping slides and dry-firing and sweeping the counter with the muzzles of guns kinda freaks me out.

Mr331
11-12-2005, 1:46 PM
I can certainly understand that a gun shop might not want to draw negative attention. When all the ammo in the state has been serialized, and guns with removable mags has been banned, and shooters are mentioned in the same breath with child molestors-should I try again?

Sorry, but for me, meekly climbing into the boxcar hoping they'll let me go is not an option. Koretz isn't going to leave Old Sac open because they didn't make any waves.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


+1

Hanging a sign is not "getting involved" or "waving a red flag". It is merely information for the customers to look at.

Has anyone been to Wild Sports or Great Outdoors with a sign yet?

Anonymous Coward
11-12-2005, 6:53 PM
Treelogger,

I'm gonna have to beat you up a little. Nothing personal.

Regarding a gunshop not wanting to 'get involved' in the RKBA fight:

It is in their interest to get involved. Should members of the press be involved in 1A issues? Sure they should. The customers of gunshops have a right to expect that the establishments they frequent are interested in furthering their collective interests. By abstaining, they hurt themselves financially and hurt their customers. Customers should show their displeasure by voting with their wallets and encourage their friends to do the same.

Regarding Traders and the 'gang bangers':

Lots of gun owners don't know crap about the guns they own. To revisit the 1A analogy, just cause you are illiterate doesn't abrogate your right to free speech.

I worked in a pawnshop for a time and most of my customers were ignorant about gun laws. I did my best to educate them. I let them know if they were illegally carrying or even if they had an illegal weapon. I gave advice when I could. Some folks just didn't know the law.

I also learned that some of the sketchier folks were law abiding citizens who were immersed in a bizzare (to me) culture. You are right about the profiling.

That said, I don't often patronize Traders. All those people snapping slides and dry-firing and sweeping the counter with the muzzles of guns kinda freaks me out.

Big +1 on this!

If we really want others to be accepting on our views on self-defense and sporting use of firearms, we cannot turn around and be discriminate based on looks. What do you think what the average walmart shopper thinks when I go to the sporting goods counter and buy 1000 rounds of ammo? Am I being thought of differently than you guys see the guy at traders? :(

If a customer violates laws and saftey rules (presumably without knowing - remember that not guilty presumption) then this can be seen as an opportunity to educate - not to get mad or refuse service.

Sorry, when a discussion goes this way this always gets to me. :(

jdberger
11-12-2005, 10:09 PM
On the other hand, in the example I gave above (wannabe gangsta enforcer carrying pistol in his jacket, and loading it in the store), the threat level is much higher (we are talking a loaded pistol being concealed), the rules are much better known and much simpler (anyone should know that you don't run around with a loaded concealed gun), and it is much more likely that the person knew full well that he was badly violating the rule. I think in this case calling the police would have been the right answer.


Why wouldn't carrying a loaded concealed weapon be legal? Everyone does it on TV and in the movies.

And again, your 'wannabe gangsta enforcer' label isn't necessarily fair.

An anecdote for ya: When I worked in the aforementioned pawnshop, I had a customer named Tony. I knew that was his name 'cause it was spelled out in four huge pave' diamond rings on his left hand T-O-N-Y. Tony would occasionally pawn a ring or a watch and get a couple thousand and return in a few days and redeem his item, always paying in small bills. Almost never anything over a $20. Money was in shoeboxes, neatly wrapped in bundles of $20 and then bundles of $100. He used to buy high end stuff like that, too.

One day I was out with some friends and I ran into Tony. He had 3 cell phones (the old Motorola flip) and walkie-talkie. He was running the ten or fifteen guys that solicited me as I was walking down the block....



to a basketball game. Tony was a ticket scalper (a legal if sketchy profession in Arizona). I felt like crap, cause I had judged him all wrong.

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery....

nick1911
11-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Rights are created by politics, and are restricted by politics. For example, the 1st and 2nd amendments (the latter being near and dear to the heart of us in this forum) were created by a whole lot of politicans, a little more than 200 years ago (it so happens that they were unusually good politicians, who got a lot more stuff right than was usual back than, otherwise they would have been forgotten by now, or how many Italian or German politicians of around 1770 do you still remember). Some other politicians passed the AWB about 15 or so years ago. If we want to have the silly handgun roster law removed, it will be done by politicians, after the political process has convinced them to do it. Unless it turns out to be that it is overturned by a court, and guess who appoints and confirms the judges.

Sorry, but "political" is not just a swearword, it is also a description of the system we live in.
I'm going to have to take issue with this. Privileges are created and restricted by politics. Rights are created by whatever god or creator you may believe in. I will agree with you that they are most certainly restricted by politics however. Luckily for us, many of our rights were enumerated by politicians in the Bill of Rights (etc), but they weren't created by them.

-Nick

jdberger
11-14-2005, 9:18 AM
+1 to Nick

AntiBubba 2.1
11-14-2005, 7:49 PM
The River City Gun Exchange on Fruitridge has a good selection of used guns-and unlike OSA they don't have a big glass case up front with droolworthy guns marked "Law Enforcement Only", and at bargain prices...:mad: