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View Full Version : OK, You are pissed. Now what are you gonna do?


jdberger
11-09-2005, 2:23 PM
OK, apparently 65,000 of us aren't enough to stop a bunch of power-drunk idiots from trying to take away our 2A rights. Now what are you gonna do?


Spin? "Well, this will never stand up in court anyway"
Whine?
Abandon Ship?
Insurrection? "From my cold dead fingers"?
Strike back?


I'm rooting for the last option. We can, with some work, mount a guerrilla campaign against Chris Daly (see my avatar - it's ok to hate him), the other Supes that co-sponsored this Proposition and their staffs.

The premise is simple, let folks know that they are against the ownership of guns and are thus unarmed and easy prey. And do it very PUBLICLY.

I'm thinking simple signs pasted up outside their offices and residences proclaiming something to the effect of:

This Person is Unarmed, Feel Free to Burglarize

(Willing to change the wording if folks see legal complications).

Another option as far as wording is concerned is:

The Guy Who Lives Here Refuses to Own A Gun
(and has lots of neat stuff)
Just thought you might want to know

So, I get a bunch of these made up in flourescent yellow and then I need a bunch of folks to start pasting them all over the City.

People doing this have to be willing to get arrested. I don't know how the cops will react, but they might take you in on a vandalism charge. Our defense would be 1A (political speech). There might be a fine involved.

Anyone have any helpful suggestions? Constructive criticism?

If your comment is something like "Oh Man, that isn't gonna do any good" go sit on your hat. As gun owners in California, we don't need anymore pessimism and apathy. We need action and people willing to take action.

jnojr
11-09-2005, 2:28 PM
How about, instead of printing up silly signs, you start to do something constructive, like work to get the RKBA initiative qualified for the ballot?

This is why California is in such deep ****... too many people "get angry" and think that writing letters is an appropriate response. Guess what? The liberals in sacramento don't care! Write all the letters you want... they have secure, safe seats for life. Post signs outside of their house... they'll just have you arrested for trespassing.

If we can get this initiative passed, crap like Prop H will be gone for good. But if you're content with griping and ranting, and can't be bothered to actually put forth some effort, then things are just going to get worse and worse.

PanzerAce
11-09-2005, 2:36 PM
Jnojr, you make a good point, but if Prop H proved anything other than that SF people are on the average morons, it proved that you need to lay all of the ground work for political crap like this as far ahead as possible. Media blitzes work sometimes, but the long lasting stuff is far more effective. So while helping with the RKBA initiative is good, it cannot (easily) suceed on its own. There most be something other than talking heads to get people to think about the issue.

hmmm, only planned on writing 1-2 sentences about it. :P

jdberger
11-09-2005, 2:45 PM
OK. I'm in.
What do you need me to do? Collect signatures? Cold call people? I'm in. Where do I go? Who do I call?

And the sign is supposed to be silly and a little offensive. It is not so much aimed at the Supes, but at the people who walk by. It is a mark of shame.

And I'm not so sure about the trespassing thing. I'm not jumping anyone's gate. I'm posting a political message on a public thoroughfare.

Propaganda works. It can redefine the dabate. They say it is about murder, we say it is about safety. How better to illustrate that by pointing out that if criminals know that you are not armed, that you are an easy target.

ldivinag
11-09-2005, 2:47 PM
OK. I'm in.
What do you need me to do? Collect signatures? Cold call people? I'm in. Where do I go? Who do I call?



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67

jdberger
11-09-2005, 3:11 PM
Thank you.

But I still think that the sign canpaign is neither silly, nor a bad idea.

jnojr
11-09-2005, 3:17 PM
Jnojr, you make a good point, but if Prop H proved anything other than that SF people are on the average morons, it proved that you need to lay all of the ground work for political crap like this as far ahead as possible. Media blitzes work sometimes, but the long lasting stuff is far more effective. So while helping with the RKBA initiative is good, it cannot (easily) suceed on its own.

OK... we can't go back in time and "do more" in the past. How about "doing more" now?

The RKBA initiative can't succeed on it's own, you're right... if nobody actually gets off of their *** and works, it's guaranteed to fail.

So, your choices...

A) Do nothing.
B) Moan and gripe on the Internet.
c) Put forth some other reasonable idea.
D) Join the effort that's happening now.

jnojr
11-09-2005, 3:21 PM
I would do exactly nothing. Maybe moan and complain a little about how silly the politicians and voters of SF are. Then wait, for many years, until this sillyness has gone through the courts. Most likely, it will not survive through the courts.

"Most likely"? What if it does? And even if it doesn't, they'll just pass another law. If the courts tell 'em they can't do this in a city or a county, they'll go statewide. ban another class of firearms. Get rid of the HSC and replace it with something else that's a lot harder and more expensive to get. expand the "drop test" laws.

They will keep coming back over and over and over. The Legislature isn't going to get any better. The courts aren't going to help us as things stand now. Our choices are to amend the Constitution, move, or just say goodbye to our guns.

In the very very unlikely case that this measure holds up in court: In that case, the people of SF seem to be allowed to pass this particular law, and it will take effect. And gun owners either have to stop owning guns, or move to another city (it's not like that's very far, as the city of SF is only 7 miles long in the longest direction), or rent a storage locker in San Mateo or Marin county, or risk becoming felons.

And then San Mateo and Marin County will pass bans. And then LA, Riverside, Sacramento, and San Bernardino. What then? rent a locker in Nevada and visit your guns once a year?

jnojr
11-09-2005, 3:23 PM
Thank you.

But I still think that the sign canpaign is neither silly, nor a bad idea.

It would be a "feel good" thing to do... you feel better for having done it, and you take some pics to share. We all look and say "Ha ha!" But does anything change? No... Chris daly and his liberal friends are going to just keep dreaming up new gun laws. We just showed them that they're free to do that... failing to pass 77 tells the liberals that they have nothing to fear.

And if they fail next year, they'll try again the year after that. Every year, they'll make a little more progress towards eliminating our rights.

jdberger
11-09-2005, 3:38 PM
It would be a "feel good" thing to do... you feel better for having done it, and you take some pics to share. We all look and say "Ha ha!" But does anything change? No... Chris daly and his liberal friends are going to just keep dreaming up new gun laws. We just showed them that they're free to do that... failing to pass 77 tells the liberals that they have nothing to fear.

And if they fail next year, they'll try again the year after that. Every year, they'll make a little more progress towards eliminating our rights.

I'm not suggesting that the sign campaign should be done in isolation. I'll support and volunteer for the RKBA initiative.

But what the sign campaign does, beyond the 'feel good' part is energize the base, get publicity and help to educate the public.

No takers?:confused:

PanzerAce
11-09-2005, 3:47 PM
Jnojr, I really didn't want to put it like this, but you seem to leave me no choice. NOTHING YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHEIVE WILL SUCCEED WITHOUT A PR CAMPAIGN TO MATCH. That is, If people were to vote on the RKBA RIGHT NOW, it would probaly fail. However, if you start a multi pronged PR effort (those silly signs, editorials, commercials, ads in papers/magazines) you are far more likely to succeed. and considering that alot of the stuff that would really work is expensive compared to what an individual can pay for, signs that catch peoples attention are probaly going to be the most effective way (basically, you can cover alot more ground for the same amount of money. And actually, I would post signs along roads, in store windows (easy for those who have defended their stores with a gun). That way, people will actually see the signs every day, and if they are on the fence, the idea that we should have the RKBA will work its way into their heads.

So, to summarize, We need a decent PR effort a good amount of time (atelast 6 months I would say) BEFORE the initiative would go to the people. You could look at it this way: for every Abrams tank in the field, there is a massive amount of infastructure to make it succeed. We need the same thing in the form of a PR effort for the RKBA to succeed.

jnojr
11-09-2005, 6:11 PM
Jnojr, I really didn't want to put it like this, but you seem to leave me no choice. NOTHING YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHEIVE WILL SUCCEED WITHOUT A PR CAMPAIGN TO MATCH. We need a decent PR effort a good amount of time (atelast 6 months I would say) BEFORE the initiative would go to the people.

It won't "go to the people" for another year. But if nobody collects signatures, it will never "go to the people".

So, start a PR campaign if you want. Or don't. It isn't my rights that are at risk here. It's yours. If you want to sit on the sidelines and critique without rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty, you're the one who's going to ultimately pay the price.

PanzerAce
11-09-2005, 7:14 PM
It won't "go to the people" for another year. But if nobody collects signatures, it will never "go to the people".

So, start a PR campaign if you want. Or don't. It isn't my rights that are at risk here. It's yours. If you want to sit on the sidelines and critique without rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty, you're the one who's going to ultimately pay the price.

What Im saying is that if you dont have a good PR campaign ahead of time, and it goes to the voters, it will be defeated, and then gun grabbers will have even more free reign to try and take our guns. I intend on helping any way I can; in fact, I have gotten most of the people on the UCM campus to agree at the very least that the RKBA is needed. Really I guess what I am trying to achieve is to lay a frame work so that when the RKBA goes the voters, your average joe will vote for it, even if he has a rational reason or not. After all, if the gun grabbers can play on peoples emotions rather than reason, then so can we.

Ok, thats it. Since its clear we both have the same goal (RKBA in Cali), lets just shake and be friends ok? you get the sigs, and ill do my damndest to make sure people know why we need to vote for it. :o

*holds out had for a shake* :o

SixDemonBag
11-09-2005, 11:29 PM
I think that jnojr and jdberger have valid points and both methods of attack can work....even at the same time.

The sign idea is great because it is a fast attention grabber and drives home a point. It is neither offensive or abrasive and can be laughed at if all else fails. This election has proven how dumb the residents of SF are and they need to be hit over the head with something for them to get it.

After the reality sets in, then the RKBA initiative comes into play. This will put and end to the stupidity of things like prop H once and for all.

Both sides of the card need to be played here, there needs to be people "street level" delivering a clear, direct statement to the un-educated public and then leading them to the meat and potatoes of the operation.

Above all, we must not fight amongst ourselves over minor things, we must unite, organize and mobilize. A few words of change on calguns isn't going to achive the goal we seek. We have to work together in a efficient, professional manner in order to achive a common goal.

My 2¢.

jdberger
11-10-2005, 10:29 AM
Treelogger,

That was amazingly well said. Though I am a pretty die-hard conservative-libertarian, I'm going to emulate your example and make some calls and write some letters to my Democrat legislators.

Scarman
11-10-2005, 6:02 PM
Well stated Treelogger.

shopkeep
11-14-2005, 3:07 AM
What I REALLY want to see is the figures of how many San Francisco gun owners voted this election. I bet you the percentages are pretty low.

The state of California will NOT rest until a police state is created to build their liberal socialist utopia. We have NO CHANCE of effecting change within the Senate or the Assembly... consistant Gerrymandering, liberals in San Francisco, and Liberals in LA have captured the state government.

We live in a single party state folks! Our ONLY chance to protect our rights are through initiatives and other grassroots methods. And we _HAVE_ to have near 100% voter turn out too! I know most if not all of us on this board in SF voted against prop H but I also know that _MANY_ SF gun owners did not vote, TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

The time to act if you want to keep your guns is _NOW_. Don't just read about the RKBA initiative or those out there, the initiative is ON and signature gathering begins later this month!!!

You'd think for something as critical as RKBA someone in this community would take more note... *COUGH* NRA * !!! or the CRPA. There are only 44 volunteers according to the site!!!! That means each volunteer will have to gather AT LEAST 18,950 signatures (over 125 signatures per day) for the measure to get on the ballot!!! Folks this is our chance to fight now get up and DO SOMETHING DAMMIT!

jdberger
11-14-2005, 10:22 AM
125 signatures a day?

Oh no...that's too hard. I'm out <sarcasm>;)

For those of you who are thinking the same thing, think about how long it took to end slavery, to codify women and minorities right to vote, to end Prohibition...

Change is incremental, but it must me unrelenting....

dwtt
11-14-2005, 8:34 PM
What I REALLY want to see is the figures of how many San Francisco gun owners voted this election. I bet you the percentages are pretty low.
!
Only 39% of voters voted in SF. Of those, 42% voted no. I'm pretty sure that the gun owners in SF who voted were opposed to H, but there are a lot of ignorant people who were also against Ahrnold who likely voted for H.

shopkeep
11-14-2005, 8:36 PM
Not to get too off track here, but Chris Daly and Mark Leno are both little turds. Hopefully they both get AIDs and bite the dust sooner rather than later.

jdberger
11-16-2005, 12:06 PM
Not to get too off track here, but Chris Daly and Mark Leno are both little turds. Hopefully they both get AIDs and bite the dust sooner rather than later.

Not nice and unnecessary.:mad:



But, is there anyone who can draw (as in illustrate)? I need a cartoon for a poster. Please send me a PM if you are willing to donate your time and energy toward this cause that we all feel so strongly about.

Regards,

Josh

Kestryll
11-16-2005, 12:45 PM
Not to get too off track here, but Chris Daly and Mark Leno are both little turds. Hopefully they both get AIDs and bite the dust sooner rather than later.

Whether you like them or not or whether you disagree with their position or agree this is both uncalled for and unneccessary.
As well as being counter to the rules and spirit of the calguns board.

Charliegone
11-16-2005, 4:09 PM
Sheesh Berger. Everytime I see your avatar I wanna punch the screen.:D

jdberger
11-16-2005, 11:01 PM
Sheesh Berger. Everytime I see your avatar I wanna punch the screen.:DThe F*in machine won't let me change it. It's starting to make me a bit nutso, too...

bountyhunter
11-17-2005, 4:14 PM
How about, instead of printing up silly signs, you start to do something constructive, like work to get the RKBA initiative qualified for the ballot?

This is why California is in such deep ****... too many people "get angry" and think that writing letters is an appropriate response. Guess what? The liberals in sacramento don't care! Actually, kalifornia is in deep s--- because the people with their heads up their rears outnumber the rest..... and it only takes 50.1% to pass a ballot intiative.

Don't take this as a persoanl failing.

Democracy is the only game where being outnumbered can not be overcome by any other means.

And we are definitely outnumbered..... and you are into wishful thinking if you believe they will change to our side.

jdberger
11-17-2005, 4:20 PM
Actually, kalifornia is in deep s--- because the people with their heads up their rears outnumber the rest..... and it only takes 50.1% to pass a ballot intiative.

Don't take this as a persoanl failing.

Democracy is the only game where being outnumbered can not be overcome by any other means.

And we are definitely outnumbered..... and you are into wishful thinking if you believe they will change to our side.

So you are willing to join us? Add yourself to our numbers. Collect signatures? Prosletyze. Recruit your friends and neighbors? Help swing the tide?

Here is the sign-up: http://rkba.members.sonic.net/

Hope to see you there.

jdberger
11-28-2005, 3:31 PM
I HAVE PETITIONS!!

Send me a PM and if you are in the East Bay I can deliver them to you. Have your friends and family sign them. Drop them off at the gun stores you frequent. Please, we need help with this.

Thanks,

jdberger

shopkeep
11-28-2005, 6:09 PM
Yes, speaking of petitions... whether or not you share my strong sentiments towards marvelous individuals like Mark Leno and gang... I will have them tommorrow evening. So anyone in Sacramento that hasn't contacted me yet please do so so that you can pick them up. Lets get the ball bouncing.

P.S. While I do agree that it's mean spirited and not neccessarily very mature to call people names (and for that matter make juvenile remarks), it is a protected first amendment right. Therefore I stand by what I said about Mark Leno and Chris Daley previously... well maybe I hope Chris will fall into a pothole in a road and break his neck because the road repair funds went to court fees instead :D !

jdberger
11-28-2005, 6:26 PM
Yes, speaking of petitions... whether or not you share my strong sentiments towards marvelous individuals like Mark Leno and gang... I will have them tommorrow evening. So anyone in Sacramento that hasn't contacted me yet please do so so that you can pick them up. Lets get the ball bouncing.

P.S. While I do agree that it's mean spirited and not neccessarily very mature to call people names (and for that matter make juvenile remarks), it is a protected first amendment right. Therefore I stand by what I said about Mark Leno and Chris Daley previously... well maybe I hope Chris will fall into a pothole in a road and break his neck because the road repair funds went to court fees instead :D !

forgiven...:rolleyes:

Good luck with the petitions.