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View Full Version : need CA FFLs that'll handle interstate intrafamily transfers of nonRostered handguns


bwiese
12-01-2009, 1:11 PM
I'm looking to collect a list of FFLs throughout California that will assist Californians in legal interstate intrafamily transfers of non-Rostered handguns.

As has been posted elsewhere before (stickied somewhere), it is entirely legal for someone outside outside CA to infrequently give his lineal relative(s) in CA non-Rostered, non-exempt handguns using the services of a California FFL.

Quite a few FFLs do not realize this, however. Knowledgable DOJ BoF staff have also confirmed this with some folks, (though I've heard some line DOJ BoF "phone clerks" may not know this).

The basics of intrafamily exemption, again:

12078(c) PC declares intrafamily exemption to CA FFL use for transfers inside CA;
12078(c) PC also defines authorized exempt lineal relationships;
12132PC defines various exemptions to Unsafe Handgun ("Roster") laws;



authorized lineal relations are defined to be between any of grandparent/parent/child/grandchild only (sorry, no brothers/uncles)


CA FFL is NOT required if both parties are CA residents within CA; direct handover is allowed




as long as recipient has valid HSC and files reg papers with DOJ (+$19/fee) within 30 days of
receipt of gun. In this case, both parties must be CA residents and within CA


use of CA FFL IS required if gun comes into CA from family member in another state - but that
is only to keep the *Feds* happy


it's good idea for supplying family member to write a simple "gift etter" identifying themselves, describing
his/her relationship to the recipient, along with the handgun's make/model/serial# ("I want my son
John Smith to have this nice Colt Python revolver, Serial# 12345"). A copy of this gift letter may be
useful to keep in files if any questions in an audit.


such transfers are *NOT* PPTs: thus FFLs' service fees are not mandated/restricted!


California FFLs should not opt out of this business, it's clearly legal, helps gunnies, offers profits, etc. Just educate your employees on this so they understand everything.

Speaking/writing as CGF board member, we will come in to help if you're following the rules and somebody says you shouldn't be doing this - they're just plain wrong.

Please PM me if you're willing to do this work. Ultimately everyone will do this (just like OLL sales) but we need some early leaders around the state to help out.

halifax
12-01-2009, 2:10 PM
PM sent

kemasa
12-01-2009, 2:13 PM
PM sent.

bwiese
12-01-2009, 2:20 PM
Thank you gentlemen for stepping up. More are welcome.

tenpercentfirearms
12-01-2009, 9:19 PM
No need for a PM. I am down. I will try and get some others too.

I take it we run it as a curio/relic/olympic/exempt transaction?

I think I will make a word document form that will help with this project.

Should we also encourage them to send it from their own address instead of a dealer? I know I would for it to also be sales tax exempt as well.

I don't have any blood, up and down the tree relatives out of state!

halifax
12-02-2009, 2:26 AM
No need for a PM. I am down. I will try and get some others too.

I take it we run it as a curio/relic/olympic/exempt transaction?

I think I will make a word document form that will help with this project.

Should we also encourage them to send it from their own address instead of a dealer? I know I would for it to also be sales tax exempt as well.

I don't have any blood, up and down the tree relatives out of state!

The first one I did a couple of years ago went like this:

Father in TX wanted to give his son in CA a couple of handguns his father had given him.

Called DOJ and talked with an agent at the Firearms Division (now BOF). The agent walked me through it.

Get a letter from the father explaining the circumstances.

Use the Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt section.

Type "SB15 Exempt" in the comments box.

Save all documentation.

Simple as that.

These handguns did come through a TX FFL because the father didn't want to deal with the shipping.

tenpercentfirearms
12-02-2009, 5:39 AM
The first one I did a couple of years ago went like this:

Father in TX wanted to give his son in CA a couple of handguns his father had given him.

Called DOJ and talked with an agent at the Firearms Division (now BOF). The agent walked me through it.

Get a letter from the father explaining the circumstances.

Use the Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt section.

Type "SB15 Exempt" in the comments box.

Save all documentation.

Simple as that.

These handguns did come through a TX FFL because the father didn't want to deal with the shipping.

Nice!

GM4spd
12-02-2009, 5:57 AM
If I am reading this correctly---I have four sons,one in TX,one in NC, and
one in NY(California one doesn't count). I can have the out of state sons
"gift" me a non rostered handgun? The process just has to go thru FFLs and
the proper fees paid,correct? Pete

halifax
12-02-2009, 7:27 AM
If I am reading this correctly---I have four sons,one in TX,one in NC, and
one in NY(California one doesn't count). I can have the out of state sons
"gift" me a non rostered handgun? The process just has to go thru FFLs and
the proper fees paid,correct? Pete

Correct. No High Capacity mags, No assault weapons.

halifax
12-02-2009, 8:20 PM
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

:mad:

ugimports
12-02-2009, 8:21 PM
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

:mad:

<snip>
Please PM me if you're willing to do this work. Ultimately everyone will do this (just like OLL sales) but we need some early leaders around the state to help out.

I just followed directions :) We're willing to do these too...

CHS
12-02-2009, 8:25 PM
Bill, you and I already talked about this at the Thanksgiving Shoot-n-que, but not only is Riflegear.com willing to do this, we already HAVE done this on a couple occasions.

tenpercentfirearms
12-02-2009, 9:21 PM
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

:mad:

You might not have noticed this is not the most popular forum on the boards. A better response would be had in 2nd Amendment.

jksupplyco
12-02-2009, 9:23 PM
I'm in..

but Wes could have spoken for me..

halifax
12-03-2009, 4:45 AM
You might not have noticed this is not the most popular forum on the boards. A better response would be had in 2nd Amendment.

Or "off topic" ;)

kemasa
12-03-2009, 9:02 AM
This is the FFL forum. I suspect that others would be willing to do the transfers, but they might have not responded. They can check with the CA DOJ to confirm that it is legal, but some people there know more than others. I confirmed how to do the transfer quite some time ago.

bwiese
12-03-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the help guys.

The DOJ instruction to mark transaction as "SB15 exempt" should, I believe be more complete.... add "12078(c) intrafamily transfer, 12133PC Roster exempt".

There are many reasons "SB15 exempt" can occur (LEO sale, probate, single-action, single-shot, etc.) and it makes sense to clarify. (What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)

CHS
12-03-2009, 12:34 PM
(What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)

Well, luckily for all of us, 2 years later there won't BE a roster :)

halifax
12-03-2009, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the help guys.

The DOJ instruction to mark transaction as "SB15 exempt" should, I believe be more complete.... add "12078(c) intrafamily transfer, 12133PC Roster exempt".

There are many reasons "SB15 exempt" can occur (LEO sale, probate, single-action, single-shot, etc.) and it makes sense to clarify. (What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)

Trouble is the comment field is very short.

kemasa
12-03-2009, 12:59 PM
Write it on the 4473. The main thing is to document it in case you are questioned.

You can also staple the letter to the DROS form.

I would not be worried about losing the letter since there are many other documents which can not be lost and the letter should be kept with them.

My personal opinion is that it is better to just keep the documentation than to include the information on the DROS comment field. I was told by the CA DOJ quite some time ago to just do it as a SB15 exempt. They did not say that there were any requirements for documenting it. The main thing is to be able to show what you did and why.

CHS
12-03-2009, 3:48 PM
Write it on the 4473. The main thing is to document it in case you are questioned.


Why on earth would you write it on the 4473? The BATFE doesn't care about Californias handgun roster.

ontargetrange
12-03-2009, 8:21 PM
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

:mad:

Actually there are many more -- we just don't have time to read all of the activity going on within CalGuns -- one of my guys told me about this thread and I can say out loud right now we support and will support and have supported in the past -- we even give family members a copy of the form for the inside Kalifornia transfer and explain about the $19. This usually results in surprised looks and extreme happiness by both parties.

We have in the past done the out of state family transfer and agree that a letter from the family member makes the ATF happy -- not "required", but they like paperwork trails.

Send them our way and If and I MEAN IF they can show me they are a CALGUNS supporter I will do the whole transfer for $40 which includes the DROS fees --- better bring a printout

CHS
12-03-2009, 8:33 PM
We have in the past done the out of state family transfer and agree that a letter from the family member makes the ATF happy -- not "required", but they like paperwork trails.


You mean the DOJ. ATF doesn't care about roster issues.

kemasa
12-04-2009, 11:05 AM
The reason to put it on the 4473 is to document it. It is part of the required firearm transaction forms and there is a space to put comments there. Just because it is a Federal form does not mean that the CA DOJ can't look at it. The bound book is a Federal form too, do you think that the CA DOJ can't look at that???

rbetts
12-04-2009, 10:06 PM
Bill, I am in also. I'd gladly perform an intra family transfer. Heck I do them now with little fanfare,

Rob

PolishMike
12-04-2009, 10:10 PM
Ill do em once I open up in Feb/March

scoutpup99
12-06-2009, 9:13 PM
Add me to the list Bill. Been handling these since I started.

redneckshootist
12-13-2009, 1:02 PM
you can add norse armory in woodland to the list bill

FortCourageArmory
12-13-2009, 7:13 PM
We're already in. We've done several in the last few months. We ask for and retain any "gift letters", we note "Intrafamilial Transfer" on the DROS form (in the comments section of the DROS tab) and we do the registration as a Curio/Relic/Exempt handgun. We'll do more of them just like we do internet transfer and PPTs. It's just another service Fort Courage provides.

Bill, PM me if there's anything more we can do to help.

Saym14
12-18-2009, 1:40 PM
is a step father a legal father under this definition?

halifax
12-18-2009, 2:08 PM
Did he adopt you? Is there some reason your mother can't do it?

Saym14
12-19-2009, 8:07 AM
Did he adopt you? Is there some reason your mother can't do it?

no , not adopted. mother just complicates things, he has to transfer to her and then her to me.

since they are legally married. isnt he legally by step father whether adopted or not?

ke6guj
12-19-2009, 10:54 AM
yes, he may be legally your step-father, but does he meet the legal definition of your "parent", and are you legally his "child"?


12078(c)(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

CHS
12-19-2009, 12:35 PM
yes, he may be legally your step-father, but does he meet the legal definition of your "parent", and are you legally his "child"?

How on earth was brother/sister exempted from "immediate family member". I can't think of any more "immediate" family members than identical twins, for instance.

JoshuaLuke
01-10-2010, 1:57 PM
Are there any FFL's willing to do this in Orange County? My parents live in Kansas, and I really want a stainless CZ 75B. I would be very grateful to anyone willing to do this!

freakshow10mm
01-10-2010, 2:41 PM
I know several other FFLs that have done it and will do it, but I am not going to speak on their behalf.

CHS
01-11-2010, 12:59 PM
Are there any FFL's willing to do this in Orange County? My parents live in Kansas, and I really want a stainless CZ 75B. I would be very grateful to anyone willing to do this!

From above:

Bill, you and I already talked about this at the Thanksgiving Shoot-n-que, but not only is Riflegear.com willing to do this, we already HAVE done this on a couple occasions.

Suchar-Enterprises
02-12-2010, 1:57 PM
Suchar Enterprises has always handled these types of transfers. As a previous member noted... "We don't awlays have time to monitor every topic here on CalGuns..."

Count me in.

Tavern Keeper
02-12-2010, 2:58 PM
Have been and will continue to handle transaction.

Lee Williams
Tunn Tavern Arms
Manteca

jstotts
02-25-2010, 8:50 PM
Did this ever become a sticky or a FAQ? I could use some help finding someone in the IE (Riverside area) to do this.

RHT447
03-15-2010, 11:58 AM
So, am about to do my first interstate intrafamily handgun transfer. It will involve more than one handgun. I understand that gifted handguns are roster-exempt, but I don't see where the purchaser is exempt from the one handgun DROS per 30 days in this case. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
RHT447

ke6guj
03-15-2010, 12:02 PM
there is no 1-in-30-day exempton for intrafamily transfers that go through an FFL, so you'll need to have the FFL hold onto the additional handguns long enought to clear the 30-day wait on each handgun. Or use a C&R FFL + COE to be exempt from the 1-in-30 rule.

Suchar-Enterprises
03-15-2010, 4:32 PM
Assuming the person has a C&R FFL+COE that's only vaild for C&R guns. Interfam transfers are not exempt from the C&R rule.

ke6guj
03-15-2010, 4:38 PM
Assuming the person has a C&R FFL+COE that's only vaild for C&R guns. incorrect. The PC exemption to the 1-in-30 rule is not limited to just C&R handguns. The exemption is valid for modern handguns as well.

Suchar-Enterprises
03-15-2010, 5:13 PM
You're correct ke6guj. I just checked and apparently DOJ didn't word the PC to specify only C&R guns. My apologies for any confusion.

Rudolf the Red
03-15-2010, 7:20 PM
I am in on this. I will do anything legal.

kemasa
03-16-2010, 11:03 AM
The DOJ does not word the PC, the elected politicians do. The DOJ tries to figure out how to enforce it, like a police officer. BTW, it was a DOJ person who told me that a C&R FFL & COE exempt the 1per30 for modern handguns.

Saym14
04-08-2010, 11:14 AM
so is there a final list compiled somewhrere?

brianm767
09-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Any Fresno area dealers in on this yet? I asked at a local dealer and they were not aware of this, and said if the gun was coming in from out of state, and was to go through a FFL, then the gun definitely has to be on the roster, and since the gun in question is not, it is not legal, I was told to have her bring it here to Cali, hand me the gun, then do the intrefamily form on Ca DOJ sight, and I know that's wrong per fed regs.

Actually Fresno to Lodi area FFL works for me, I'm often up that way

tenpercentfirearms
09-18-2010, 5:11 PM
Any Fresno area dealers in on this yet? I asked at a local dealer and they were not aware of this, and said if the gun was coming in from out of state, and was to go through a FFL, then the gun definitely has to be on the roster, and since the gun in question is not, it is not legal, I was told to have her bring it here to Cali, hand me the gun, then do the intrefamily form on Ca DOJ sight, and I know that's wrong per fed regs.

Actually Fresno to Lodi area FFL works for me, I'm often up that way

Just drive down to Taft! :43:

kemasa
09-19-2010, 7:20 AM
I have asked the question of the CA DOJ (quite some time ago) and they tell you how to do it. So, you might suggest that the FFL calls the CA DOJ to be educated.

tenpercentfirearms
09-19-2010, 10:38 AM
I have asked the question of the CA DOJ (quite some time ago) and they tell you how to do it. So, you might suggest that the FFL calls the CA DOJ to be educated.

Great point. Do you remember the name of the agent by chance? If not, no biggie. Consumers just ask the FFL to call the DOJ BOF field agents and see what they say.

halifax
09-19-2010, 12:40 PM
The first time I did it the agent walked me through the process including having me process multiple handguns on the same day to the same customer.

But, that appears to have been bad information :eek:

there is no 1-in-30-day exempton for intrafamily transfers that go through an FFL, so you'll need to have the FFL hold onto the additional handguns long enought to clear the 30-day wait on each handgun. Or use a C&R FFL + COE to be exempt from the 1-in-30 rule.

The DROS software didn't object and neither did the DOJ. I guess I got lucky.

kemasa
09-20-2010, 11:02 AM
I am not sure of who I talked to, but there are a couple that I trust more than others. I don't want to post names though.

Santa Cruz Armory
06-02-2011, 5:52 AM
Tagged for later reading.

ke6guj
06-02-2011, 11:21 AM
did you really necropost a 6-month old thread just to TAG it?

kemasa
06-02-2011, 11:43 AM
Perhaps some people are not aware of the thread tools or bookmarks :-).

Sacramento Black Rifle
06-02-2011, 12:09 PM
Good to go!

NDFMF
06-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Count Golden Bear Arms in.

EBR Works
06-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Count me in as well..

gdict
06-07-2011, 11:30 AM
incorrect. The PC exemption to the 1-in-30 rule is not limited to just C&R handguns. The exemption is valid for modern handguns as well.

Where it gets really strange is that modern handguns are 1in30 exempt with 03/COE, but NOT exempt of HSC/Safety demo. Only C&R are...