PDA

View Full Version : moving a problem for CCW???


IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 2:56 PM
I live in Chico now (Butte Co.) but I'm buying a house in Roseville (Placer Co.) in March/April and i was wondering, If i decide to get my CCW before I move, will this be a factor in Butte giving me one? would the issue even come up if I dont bring it up myself? Knowing Butte's nearly "shall issue" policy, I'd like to take advantage of it before I move to Placer where i hear mixed reviews.

Blademan21
11-22-2009, 3:18 PM
I believe this question has been asked before. The answer is,the county you reside in is where you must apply for your CCW. Your CCW will have your residence address. Others please correct me if I am wrong. That is the way it works in my county,San Bernardino.

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 3:25 PM
I know that, but i want to know if i'm planning on moving only months after applying for a CCW, are they likely to deny me since i'll no longer be a resident of Butte?

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 3:41 PM
If you currently have one, it becomes invalid after 30 days.
If you have an application in process and it has not yet been issued, I believe you may request a voluntary withdrawal so you won't have a denial on file.

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 5:23 PM
So once you get a CCW you have to stay in that county, or get another one once you move? it isn't a county license, so why should i have to get a new one if i move to a new county?

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 5:37 PM
So once you get a CCW you have to stay in that county, or get another one once you move? it isn't a county license, so why should i have to get a new one if i move to a new county?
Correct.
The permit is valid state-wide, but your current permit must be issued (and renewed every 2 years) by the SO of your county of residence.

It didn't used to be that way, but it was changed after some SOs began issuing to anyone who applied as a protest over the SOs who would not issue to "Joe Public". IIRC, it was the SO of Yolo who triggered the change in the law.

Quiet
11-22-2009, 7:22 PM
If you currently have one, it becomes invalid after 30 days.
If you have an application in process and it has not yet been issued, I believe you may request a voluntary withdrawal so you won't have a denial on file.

Correction.
It's 90 days, not 30.
Everything else is correct.


Penal Code 12050
(f)(2) When the licensee changes his or her address, the license shall be amended to reflect the new address and a new license shall be issued pursuant to paragraph (3).
(3) If the licensing authority amends the license, a new license shall be issued to the licensee reflecting the amendments.
(4)(A) The licensee shall notify the licensing authority in writing within 10 days of any change in the licensee's place of residence.
(B) If the license is one to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, then it may not be revoked solely because the licensee changes his or her place of residence to another county if the licensee has not breached any conditions or restrictions set forth in the license or has not fallen into a prohibited class described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. However, any license issued pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license.

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 9:08 PM
(B) If the license is one to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, then it may not be revoked solely because the licensee changes his or her place of residence to another county if the licensee has not breached any conditions or restrictions set forth in the license or has not fallen into a prohibited class described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. However, any license issued pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license.

actually this says right here that it wont be revoked just because i move to a new county. the 90 day expiration is just if i say i need it because i live in chico and it's a scary place or something like that. If my reasoning doesn't tie me to my place of residence (which in all honesty it doesn't) then it's still good until it would normally expire, i would just need to change the address on it.

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 9:18 PM
No, it does....
Penal Code 12050
(f)(2) When the licensee changes his or her address, the license shall be amended to reflect the new address and a new license shall be issued pursuant to paragraph (3).
(3) If the licensing authority amends the license, a new license shall be issued to the licensee reflecting the amendments.
(4)(A) The licensee shall notify the licensing authority in writing within 10 days of any change in the licensee's place of residence.
(B) If the license is one to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, then it may not be revoked solely because the licensee changes his or her place of residence to another county if the licensee has not breached any conditions or restrictions set forthThis covers your current county reissuing the replacement with your new address. THIS cannot be denied.
However, any license issued pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license.Your replacement license issued by the original county will expire 90 days after you move to the new county.

For reference, here is 12050(a)(1)(A) and (B):
12050. (a)(1)(A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) The chief or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a resident of that city, and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county in which the city is located is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Nothing in either of these sections says anything about "good cause" being related to a specific area of your daily life.
The PC doesn't address what "good cause" is... that's why there is such disparity between the opinions of the various SO's and their issue policies.

Here's the whole code:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12050.php

IrishPirate
11-28-2009, 3:06 PM
i get what you're saying, but when i read it (several times over) it still all says to me that if i move out of county, and the previous county was not the reason why i got the ccw, then it will not expire. I'll make sure to ask before i take a class; however, when it says "if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license", that tells me that it only applies if i said i need it because where i live right now puts me in greater danger, and i need a gun to protect myself because of the area that i live in. If my reasons are not specific to the area i live in, which they aren't, then the basis for issuance is not not my place of residence.
My reasons include: I travel long distances at night to see my parents, I use a bike for one of my main forms of transportation and have no place to lock my gun or keep the ammo seperate, I go camping, hiking, fishing, hunting and need to protect myself from animals. I've been camping, hiking, fishing, and hunting and came accross illegal pot fields on multiple occasions and with the regularity that i do so, i feel i need some means of protecting myself should the next one be guarded. there's other reasons too, but like these, non of them have anything to do with my place of residence.

Cokebottle
11-28-2009, 3:15 PM
It's obscure language for sure, but the fact remains that it will expire.
The statute simply prohibits your current county from denying to issue a replacement permit with your new address... but that replacement permit will expire.

Additionally, depending on the county you are moving to, you may not qualify to apply for a new permit for a year.

However, any license issued pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license.
Your permit was issued under:
12050. (a)(1)(A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
...so your permit will be subject to the expiration clause.

Cokebottle
11-28-2009, 3:23 PM
Also, keep in mind that it is a 3-8 month process to even get the permit in the first place.
It's not like a driver's license where you pass a couple of tests and get your temporary on the spot.

You go through an interview, then if you survive that, you take the class and submit your final paperwork.
The SO will then contact your personal and business references, they'll come to your home, chat with your wife, chat with your neighbors, etc....
After all of that is done, you may or may not be issued a permit.

If you're moving in March or April, it'll be a waste of money... you probably won't even have the permit by then even if you begin the process next week.

Librarian
11-28-2009, 4:40 PM
For non-LEO, pretty much all the bases for issuance would be residence in a particular county.

Retired LEOS and judges and prosecutors and such other exceptions receive their CCW on the basis of status, not residence.

MrClamperSir
11-28-2009, 7:16 PM
Also, keep in mind that it is a 3-8 month process to even get the permit in the first place.
It's not like a driver's license where you pass a couple of tests and get your temporary on the spot.

You go through an interview, then if you survive that, you take the class and submit your final paperwork.
The SO will then contact your personal and business references, they'll come to your home, chat with your wife, chat with your neighbors, etc....
After all of that is done, you may or may not be issued a permit.

If you're moving in March or April, it'll be a waste of money... you probably won't even have the permit by then even if you begin the process next week.

Butte Co. is 6-8 weeks and no interview.

Rick530
11-29-2009, 3:11 PM
Butte Co. is 6-8 weeks and no interview.

No interview? really? wow. Just class, paperwork then wait?

IrishPirate
11-29-2009, 3:30 PM
No interview? really? wow. Just class, paperwork then wait?

yup, that's why Butte is such a good CCW county.

I guess I'm still hung up on the language of the law. To me, basis for issuance would be the reasons i state. Obviously if i have to live in a county to get the permit issued to me by that county then there is somewhat of a residency basis, but the reason for me getting the CCW isn't because of the county i live in. If all the counties require you to be a resident of the county when you first apply, then it's kinda a mute point that residency would be the basis. It's just a requirement, not the basis for issuance. I've looked at it every way i can think of and that's the only way i see it. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just not able to see it any other way. Is there something more concrete that would say definitely one way or another???

Librarian
11-29-2009, 4:05 PM
The law is 12050:
12050. (a) (1) (A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof

[1] that the person applying is of good moral character,

[2] that good cause exists for the issuance, and

[3] that the person applying satisfies any one of the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E),

[[ numbers added ]]
may issue to that person a license
to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person ... and sub-paragraph (D) is (D) For the purpose of subparagraph (A), the applicant shall
satisfy any one of the following:
(i) Is a resident of the county or a city within the county.
(ii) Spends a substantial period of time in the applicant's
principal place of employment or business in the county or a city
within the county.
There's your basis for issuance.

See further down at (2)(A)(ii) (ii) If the licensee's place of employment or business was the
basis for issuance of the license pursuant to subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (1) ...

Paragraph (C) allows the CLEO to issue to a person who has been deputized or appointed as a peace officer
pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 830.6 by that sheriff
or that chief of police or other head of a municipal police
departmentThat would be another basis to issue.

So the text of the code suggests there are 3 bases to issue in 12050:
(2)(C) deputized or appointed peace officers
(2)(D)(i) residency
(2)(D)(ii) 'substantial period of time'


ETA 12027 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12027) explains about retired LEO - they don't actually get CCW from a CLEO, but carry legally on the basis of retired status, as evidenced by Any peace officer described in this paragraph who has been honorably retired shall be issued an identification certificate by the law enforcement agency from which the officer has retired.

IrishPirate
11-29-2009, 4:35 PM
well i work 72 hours or more per week in Butte couty as a Fireman with CalFire and even though that's not a reason why i need/want a CCW, it would satisfy me getting a CCW in Butte (i think).

(2)(A)(ii) poses the wording as a question, saying "If the licensee's place of employment or business was the basis for issuance..."

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It can be interpreted different ways because it still says to me that these are either requirements you must satisfy before that county will even be able to be the county you can get a CCW from, or they give examples of instances that could be the basis for you getting your CCW. To me, basis in this context means the reason why they issued me a CCW. They aren't going to issue me one just because i live in Butte. They're going to issue me one when i show them that i have a reason/reasons to carry a gun, and those reasons would be my basis for getting a CCW. I might be arguing semantics, but that's the way it sounds to me. I know i gotta deal with what the CLEO of each county says, but this is the argument that i'd present, and I just can't see where they can really refute it ( though i won't be surprised if they try)

Please, anything else that points directly to yes or no would be really helpful. I want to truely understand why everyone seems to say no, and right now i just dont see it.

Librarian
11-29-2009, 4:51 PM
well i work 72 hours or more per week in Butte couty as a Fireman with CalFire and even though that's not a reason why i need/want a CCW, it would satisfy me getting a CCW in Butte (i think).

That looks like a (2)(D)(ii) basis for issuance.


(2)(A)(ii) poses the wording as a question, saying "If the licensee's place of employment or business was the basis for issuance..."

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It can be interpreted different ways because it still says to me that these are either requirements you must satisfy before that county will even be able to be the county you can get a CCW from, or they give examples of instances that could be the basis for you getting your CCW. To me, basis in this context means the reason why they issued me a CCW. They aren't going to issue me one just because i live in Butte. They're going to issue me one when i show them that i have a reason/reasons to carry a gun, and those reasons would be my basis for getting a CCW. I might be arguing semantics, but that's the way it sounds to me. I know i gotta deal with what the CLEO of each county says, but this is the argument that i'd present, and I just can't see where they can really refute it ( though i won't be surprised if they try)

Butte County cannot issue a CCW unless you meet either of (2)(D)(i) or (2)(D)(ii).

You cannot get a CCW anywhere unless you meet the local CLEO's investigation for 'good character' and meet that official's idea of 'good cause'.

But to get a CCW from Butte County Sheriff, you either live or work in Butte.



Please, anything else that points directly to yes or no would be really helpful. I want to truely understand why everyone seems to say no, and right now i just dont see it.

If that isn't clear enough, please hire a lawyer - who will, I assure you, tell you substantially the same thing after lightening your wallet.

ETA - let me amplify that last about 'lawyer'. I'm not lying to you, and I'm quite sure I'm not wrong.

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last five years or so learning how to read PC and case law. For a layman, I'm pretty well educated in that stuff, and I'm careful to note where I have any uncertainty.

But I'm not a lawyer, and even if I were, I wouldn't be your lawyer; since that's true, there's no reason for you to accept my assertions any more than those of any other anonymous yahoo on the internet.

So, if you don't want to believe me, and you can't see it in the PC, then you really need a paid expert opinion that you can trust.

IrishPirate
11-30-2009, 8:04 PM
i'm not trying to offend you by questioning you, i'm just trying to make sure that i understand the law. I too have a pretty good understanding of how to read PC and i've spent a significant amount of time doing so also (though i'm not going to claim it's as much as you have, 5 years is impressive).
i understand that living or working in a county is a requirement for that county to issue you a CCW. What i'm confused on is why they would make that the basis for issuance, and then write an exemption for a CCW expiring when you move out of county. If you had to be a resident of the county for it to be valid, then there would be no exception when you move out of county, and there is! The CCW will not expire unless the basis for issuance was also residency. Residency is a requirement to be issued a permit, but you need a basis (reason) for issuance to show "good cause". To me, as long as none of your reasons involve "i need one because i live in this area and i'm constantly threatened", you would satisfy the exeption and your CCW would not automatically expire when you move out of the county that issued it to you.

"However, any license issued pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for issuance of the license."

this is refering to my actual physical address, not the county i live in. the whole thing says, in lay-man's: If you were given a permit under these conditions and you move out of the county that gave you your permit, it will expire in 90 days if the reason you got the permit was because of the place that you lived.

now, i'm not saying that the CLEO isn't going to say "you're getting this permit because you live in Butte, and that's the reason why we're issuing it". if that happens, then yeah, it'll expire when i move. But, if they say "you're getting this permit because of (insert my reasons here), and that's the reason why we're issuing it", then my residency is not my basis for issuance. It's simply a requirement to have the CLEO of Butte Co's signature validate it.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Thanks for helping me though, Librarian. Any more insight is still welcomed.

Cokebottle
11-30-2009, 8:17 PM
What i'm confused on is why they would make that the basis for issuance,
Residency would be the typical primary reason for issuance.

Occupation MAY be a legitimate primary reason for issuance, and if that is the case, then it could be argued that as long as you work in the county, and work is the causative factor of "good cause", there may be a path for the permit not expiring

However, someone on the forum was recently issued a permit, and part of their "good cause" was risks related to their job. The permit actually had a restriction that they could only CCW while on the job, and not as a general course of daily life.
I don't recall the county of issue or who the forum member was.

In the case of that particular permit, it is obvious that the location or conditions of work, rather than the location of residence, was the primary reason for issue.

It sounds like Butte County is very CCW friendly. It might behoove you to make an appointment for a FTF with the Sheriff and explain the situation, desire to retain the right to CCW, and express your concerns that the SO of your new county may not be willing to issue for good cause based on your occupation in Butte Co.
That MIGHT get you a pass under special circumstances...
however, the problem is going to repeat itself in 2 years when you have to renew.
At that point, the renewal will go through your SO since you will then be a resident of the new county... and if he is not as CCW-friendly as Butte, he may see the current effort as a disrespecting of his authority and deny renewal.

IrishPirate
12-01-2009, 4:43 PM
From what i gather, Placer county (where I'm moving) is CCW friendly...they just require the CLEO interview. I've thought alot about a FTF with the Sheriff, even before i started this thread. I'll try to set one up as soon as possible, maybe even do one with the Placer Sheriff too. Seems like an easy way to get all the right answers and have my argument fall on the ears of those who make the decisions. Thanks for giving me some ammo to in there with everyone. I really appreciate the insight.

Cokebottle
12-01-2009, 5:26 PM
Smart move.
A FTF with the Placer CLEO would also put his mind at ease that you aren't attempting to "go over his head" or "behind his back" to get a Butte-issued permit. He may very well tell you not to worry about getting the Butte permit and to come see him in the spring unless you feel that strongly about the need for the permit issued in January for February (which I would certainly respond in the affirmative to support your good cause).

IrishPirate
12-02-2009, 11:31 AM
Thanks cokebottle, I think you're right. I think Butte allows 4 guns to be rostered while Placer only allows 3. Not sure though so that will be something to get a definite answer on. Thanks again.

Cokebottle
12-02-2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks cokebottle, I think you're right. I think Butte allows 4 guns to be rostered while Placer only allows 3. Not sure though so that will be something to get a definite answer on. Thanks again.
I'd be happy with 3... mine, my wife's, and our backup.
Important to have the wife's on there (assuming she's also permitted) in case she hands you her purse to hold while she's in a dressing room, goes into the post office, etc....
Some things that we do as 2nd nature every day can be problematic when a CCW is involved.

IrishPirate
12-03-2009, 11:23 AM
i actually never thought about that...Thanks for the heads up, thats something i'd never think about since, you're right, it is second nature to just hold her purse for whatever. I'll keep that in mind if she gets her CCW too. Personally, I think there shouldn't be a limit, but since there is, it'd be nice to have the max available. 3 will do, but 4 is always better. thanks again.