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IrishPirate
11-20-2009, 1:30 PM
I haven't been able to get through to BCSO yet, and i can't find anything online to tell me if there are any county ordinances against Unloaded Open Carry in Butte, CA. Any other Butte residents know what the scoop is?? I got a hold of Chico PD and they're UOC friendly, so the last hurtle is Butte County. I know Butte is a pretty gun friendly county so I'm pretty sure I'll get good news, but I learned long ago to stop assuming things. any info would be helpful (links to BC website with info would be GREAT!!) THANKS

gotgunz
11-20-2009, 1:33 PM
So my question would be why not just get the ccw, that they issue quite regularly?

Rather than run the risk of pissing somebody off that could deny any future ccw application.

And before everybody jumps on the "it's my right" bandwagon or claim that they want to protect themselves let me remind you that Butte Co. issues to nearly anybody unless the applicant give them a reason not to.

Sounds like a foolish stunt to me that could be solved with a valid ccw.

Liberty1
11-20-2009, 1:37 PM
I got a hold of Chico PD and they're UOC friendly...

Interesting, there was another member here who would disagree with you...

You should pm brother CitaDel he is near Redding. If you can get you LTC (CCW) I'd say do that as loaded carry is preferable to unloaded (even if it is concealed for now). If not then consider LUCC (CitaDel will explain) until "bear" is secured in the courts.

wildhawker
11-20-2009, 1:43 PM
This seems to be a reasonable suggestion.

Expanded UOC in CA at this time will not end well.

So my question would be why not just get the ccw, that they issue quite regularly?

Rather than run the risk of pissing somebody off that could deny any future ccw application.

And before everybody jumps on the "it's my right" bandwagon or claim that they want to protect themselves let me remind you that Butte Co. issues to nearly anybody unless the applicant give them a reason not to.

Sounds like a foolish stunt to me that could be solved with a valid ccw.

cmth
11-20-2009, 1:43 PM
Last time I heard about Chico PD they gave a UOCer the felony hot stop and took his weapon into evidence. Never heard how that got resolved. Good to see that they have come around.

Buck'emDown78
11-20-2009, 1:52 PM
So my question would be why not just get the ccw, that they issue quite regularly?

Rather than run the risk of pissing somebody off that could deny any future ccw application.

And before everybody jumps on the "it's my right" bandwagon or claim that they want to protect themselves let me remind you that Butte Co. issues to nearly anybody unless the applicant give them a reason not to.

Sounds like a foolish stunt to me that could be solved with a valid ccw.

Yup, couldnt agree more! Sounds very foolish to UOC in a county you may very well likely get approved for CCW. Other than establishing your "inalienable" rights to UOC (a mere stunt to most), I have never really gotten why people are so enthralled by carrying a firearm in the open with no bullets immediately inside. Might as well carry a big rock that you can throw quicker than fumbling for your nearest magazine not on you. Minus badge and duty, its so much more tactical and sound to have a firearm concealed WITH ammo living in Butte Co.

IrishPirate
11-20-2009, 3:57 PM
well, for starters...CCW is something I'm looking into. why not do it? right now because of the cost. It might seem nominal to some, but for me, it's something that i can't afford right now. And yes, I'm definitely on the "it's my right" bandwagon as you call it. it's everyone's right. I happen to be very proud of my right to bear arms and of the fact that i'm a law abiding citizen. I dont think it's a foolish stunt at all, i think you're an ignorant person for coming to this forum and talking about our second amendment right that way. i think you should be ashamed for suggesting anything other than "good for you" on THIS forum. Personally, i can load my weapon and have it ready to fire in under 3 seconds, and i feel safe with that time, and if i want to exercise a right guaranteed to me by the constitution, then that's what i'll do. Pro gun rights activists always proclaim that the more people we have backing us, the better our results will be. Well if you decided to back those who are UOCing, maybe we can get the law changed to drop the Unloaded requirement. maybe when the general public sees people who UOC as normal, law abiding citizens, they'll think twice about allowing laws that restrict our gun rights.

so, does anybody have an answer to my original question?

Liberty1
11-20-2009, 4:13 PM
well, for starters...CCW is something I'm looking into. why not do it? right now because of the cost....



Cost is a concern I agree. The legal situation is that it is not a Right in CA just yet. What we don't want is for you to face possible criminal charges that could result in a loss of gun rights.

Things are changing but at the speed of the court process. Hang in there. Please pm CitaDel for info in your neck of the woods.

so, does anybody have an answer to my original question?

http://library6.municode.com/11433/home.htm?infobase=16065&doc_action=whatsnew

IrishPirate
11-20-2009, 4:17 PM
Cost is a concern I agree. The legal situation is that it is not a Right in CA just yet. What we don't want is for you to face possible criminal charges that could result in a loss of gun rights.

Things are changing but at the speed of the court process. Hang in there. Please pm CitaDel for info in your neck of the woods.



http://library6.municode.com/11433/home.htm?infobase=16065&doc_action=whatsnew

will do. I dont want to lose my rights either, that's why I'm a cautios LAC and i started this thread. I plan on actually visiting the CLEO of Chico PD and BCSO and getting their actual word (hopefully written) on the matter. I'll PM CitaDel if i can find him/her. thanks

Liberty1
11-20-2009, 4:30 PM
I plan on actually visiting the CLEO of Chico PD and BCSO and getting their actual word (hopefully written) on the matter.

Does't really matter what they say the law is what it is. The latest memo over at californiaopencarry.org is the best yet.

LUCC is the recommended "no drama" self defense choice right now. Yes I love OC. I think it is the superior method of carry for most circumstances (except in my tux at the opera I like my little .380) but I can't recommend it right now at least until it's a court protected right and or "bear" is better defined.

gotgunz
11-20-2009, 4:48 PM
well, for starters...CCW is something I'm looking into. why not do it? right now because of the cost. It might seem nominal to some, but for me, it's something that i can't afford right now.

This is completely understandable. Given the current economy everybody is probably watching their money closer than they did in recent years.


And yes, I'm definitely on the "it's my right" bandwagon as you call it. it's everyone's right. I happen to be very proud of my right to bear arms and of the fact that i'm a law abiding citizen.

So what you are saying is that you're on the bandwagon just because you can regardless of what the legal eagles have suggested. Which is to refrain from UOC until incorporation? p.s. I would think that everybody is proud of their rights and that they are law abiding citizens.



I dont think it's a foolish stunt at all, i think you're an ignorant person for coming to this forum and talking about our second amendment right that way. i think you should be ashamed for suggesting anything other than "good for you" on THIS forum.

So says the man with an unloaded gun? I wasn't talking about the right in any manner; merely the potential outcome that has been discussed to death on Calguns as well as proven through recent court cases (although in SoCal). I am more ashamed that there are gun owners who seem to be our own worst enemies in efforts, which seem futile at times, to make changes. Nothing brings the anti's to action quicker than a group of people wearing guns in plain view scaring the crap out of the sheeple.



Personally, i can load my weapon and have it ready to fire in under 3 seconds, and i feel safe with that time,

I have a timer, willing to prove this theory? No offense and I don't know the true value of your skills but every time I hear somebody make this claim I have a picture of them doing so with the gun already in their hand and the first round going into their foot.



Pro gun rights activists always proclaim that the more people we have backing us, the better our results will be. Well if you decided to back those who are UOCing, maybe we can get the law changed to drop the Unloaded requirement. maybe when the general public sees people who UOC as normal, law abiding citizens, they'll think twice about allowing laws that restrict our gun rights.

I will never back a practice that, in my "ignorant" opinion, does nothing more than scare anti's to push for more restrictions. Scared soccer moms have a very powerful voice in our society and anything we do to further their efforts can only hinder us later. I'll just keep carrying concealed; by doing so (which is an option for you in Butte Co.) I go about my day LOADED and nobody is the wiser.

Regardless of cost, if your ability to protect yourself was important you would fork over the small amount of $$ and get the ccw. By the tone of your reply I am left to assume that you are only out to make a statement and maybe having a loaded gun is not in our best interest after all.

May the force be with you. Let me know if you want to borrow my timer.

jeffm223
11-20-2009, 5:07 PM
I find it hard to believe that Chico PD would be OK with UOC when the current Chief is on record as saying that citizens - non-LEO - shouldn't be allowed to carry guns. He made this statement after an incident where a permit holding person who's piece got spotted during a city council meeting was disarmed in the lobby. What made it even worse was that the guy was spotted by an ex Chico PD officer who then disarmed the man, even though he is no longer a sworn officer. They made him go lock his gun in the car, then leaked the incident to a local paper the next day. The story was transparently slanted toward getting guns banned during council meetings. So no, I doubt you will have any luck with getting this in writing.
The good news is that for the next 2 months at least we have Sheriff Reniff, who is the best Sheriff in CA IMHO. Hustle out and get your CCW - you will get it if you're not a crook - and skip the retarded UOC stuff.

Kid Stanislaus
11-20-2009, 9:26 PM
And yes, I'm definitely on the "it's my right" bandwagon as you call it. it's everyone's right. I happen to be very proud of my right to bear arms and of the fact that i'm a law abiding citizen.

The people here on Calguns who are handling the lawsuits that can undermine "may issue" in California have asked us all to hold off on UOC until the lawsuits have worked their way thru the courts. Is it REALLY such a burdon on anybody's "individualism" that they can't hold off until the legalities get worked out? Why does there ALWAYS have to be a small handful of people who just cannot find it in their hearts to be team players? BTW, if it really IS a matter of the money, PM me ASAP.

IrishPirate
11-20-2009, 9:45 PM
The people here on Calguns who are handling the lawsuits that can undermine "may issue" in California have asked us all to hold off on UOC until the lawsuits have worked their way thru the courts. Is it REALLY such a burdon on anybody's "individualism" that they can't hold off until the legalities get worked out? Why does there ALWAYS have to be a small handful of people who just cannot find it in their hearts to be team players? BTW, if it really IS a matter of the money, PM me ASAP.

I do plan on holding off, i started this thread just to get info...it was research. I would only do it if i knew 100% that i wouldn't get thrown in jail. I do not now, nor do i plan on soon, practicing UOC. I hope, along with all of you, that it will be a non-issue soon. I'm with the majority all the way, they have my full support. I have to appologize to gotgunz, i was pissed off about something else, just happened to be on the site at the time, and i took it out on your comment. It wasn't fair, you ARE right, and i am the one who was being ignorant. I'm truely sorry, it was wrong of me to say what i did.

gotgunz
11-20-2009, 11:02 PM
I have to appologize to gotgunz, i was pissed off about something else, just happened to be on the site at the time, and i took it out on your comment. It wasn't fair, you ARE right, and i am the one who was being ignorant. I'm truely sorry, it was wrong of me to say what i did.

Consider it a done deal. We all have our moments and god knows I have an ex-wife so I know what it is like to be pissed, LOL.

No harm, no foul.

IrishPirate
11-21-2009, 6:50 PM
Still, I'm really sorry about it, it was totally uncalled for. You did have sound advice, I should have been listening to it. Even if we had different views, I shouldn't have been a dick like that. You're a god guy for understanding....and yeah, it was wife related (not ex, current) :banghead:

Meplat
11-21-2009, 9:51 PM
I admire your courage, but I question your judgment. I understand your frustration with government ignoring the constitution. But, is it not better, and more satisfying, to assert your rights right under their noses with out them knowing? I carried concealed for 30 years before we got a sherif with her head screwed on straight and I got my CCW. During that time I was 'caught' three times. I did not fit the 'profile' of any kind of criminal, and had no record. I walked away with my gun and my dignity every time. Now, I would not expect that to happen in LA or SF but in a county like Butte? I doubt you would have much of a problem. CCW with or without permit is a much better option. That way the authorities are not being openly challenged and are more likely to look the other way. It is just one hell of a lot safer than UOC.

If that chaps your ***, be advised that if you cant afford the CCW process you damn sure cant afford to defend yourself against the charges some DA is going to throw at you for UOC. Discreet CCW is the least risky!


well, for starters...CCW is something I'm looking into. why not do it? right now because of the cost. It might seem nominal to some, but for me, it's something that i can't afford right now. And yes, I'm definitely on the "it's my right" bandwagon as you call it. it's everyone's right. I happen to be very proud of my right to bear arms and of the fact that i'm a law abiding citizen. I dont think it's a foolish stunt at all, i think you're an ignorant person for coming to this forum and talking about our second amendment right that way. i think you should be ashamed for suggesting anything other than "good for you" on THIS forum. Personally, i can load my weapon and have it ready to fire in under 3 seconds, and i feel safe with that time, and if i want to exercise a right guaranteed to me by the constitution, then that's what i'll do. Pro gun rights activists always proclaim that the more people we have backing us, the better our results will be. Well if you decided to back those who are UOCing, maybe we can get the law changed to drop the Unloaded requirement. maybe when the general public sees people who UOC as normal, law abiding citizens, they'll think twice about allowing laws that restrict our gun rights.

so, does anybody have an answer to my original question?

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 11:15 AM
I admire your courage, but I question your judgment. I understand your frustration with government ignoring the constitution. But, is it not better, and more satisfying, to assert your rights right under their noses with out them knowing? I carried concealed for 30 years before we got a sherif with her head screwed on straight and I got my CCW. During that time I was 'caught' three times. I did not fit the 'profile' of any kind of criminal, and had no record. I walked away with my gun and my dignity every time. Now, I would not expect that to happen in LA or SF but in a county like Butte? I doubt you would have much of a problem. CCW with or without permit is a much better option. That way the authorities are not being openly challenged and are more likely to look the other way. It is just one hell of a lot safer than UOC.

If that chaps your ***, be advised that if you cant afford the CCW process you damn sure cant afford to defend yourself against the charges some DA is going to throw at you for UOC. Discreet CCW is the least risky!

believe me, i know i couldn't afford a lawyer, that's why i was making sure i knew the laws before I decided to UOC. I've had to hire a lawyer before and it wasn't fun.

I know Butte is a good county for CCW, but I doubt that cops would rather I carry a loaded gun concealed than an unloaded one in plain view. If for some reason i did get caught carrying concealed w/o a permit, I doubt very much in this day and age they would just let me walk away. I'll hold off on concealed carry until i get a permit, and i'll hold off on UOC until we get "incorporation" as others have mentioned.

Liberty1
11-22-2009, 12:22 PM
I'll hold off on concealed carry until i get a permit, and i'll hold off on UOC until we get "incorporation" as others have mentioned.

Are you aware of LUCC (locked unloaded concealed carry) which is legal? Also feel free to exercise that at least and or the "trunk shotgun" option. At least then you're not entirely disarmed. Do your research...

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 12:33 PM
I am aware of LUCC, but that seems about as useful as carrying a big rock. LUCC just seems like a term someone came up with to make the law sounds more gun friendly. they took the "you have to keep your gun locked up to transport it" and turned it into "you can keep your gun locked up so that you can conceal it while you transport it" that makes ALOT less sense than UOC in terms of self defense.

now that i really think about it though, on the plus side, my taurus pt145 pro has the slide lock, hex key safety feature. if i were to lock it, keep it unloaded, and have the mag nearby, would that satisfy the LUCC requirements??

chico.cm
11-22-2009, 12:48 PM
IrishPirate: good question.
However, Chico pd is in no-way gun friendly. BCSO is. It is $200 to get a permit. Go to Chico Rod and gun for the class ($40?) then about $150 for the permit. I would NEVER UOC or ULC or any other acronym. If you can't afford the $200, wait and save your money. Lawyers cost a hell of alot more!
No offense to you, but you should have a monthly budget to shoot at least a couple hundred rounds a month if you plan on carrying. It's our obligation to hit where we aim EVERYTIME--especially when ccw.

GrizzlyGuy
11-22-2009, 1:04 PM
I am aware of LUCC, but that seems about as useful as carrying a big rock. LUCC just seems like a term someone came up with to make the law sounds more gun friendly.

Worse than that, LUCC with a handgun is often not legal at all. For example, if you are on foot/skis/horse/bicycle/skateboard/wind surfer/skates and your destination/purpose doesn't fit one of the 12025 exemptions (12026, 12026.1, 12026.2, or 12027) it is illegal since you'd be in violation of 12025.

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 1:12 PM
No offense to you, but you should have a monthly budget to shoot at least a couple hundred rounds a month if you plan on carrying. It's our obligation to hit where we aim EVERYTIME--especially when ccw.

i absolutely agree, which is one reason why I'm going to start reloading. practice is important. "you're only half as good as your best day at the range in a real gun fight"

Worse than that, LUCC with a handgun is often not legal at all. For example, if you are on foot/skis/horse/bicycle/skateboard/wind surfer/skates and your destination/purpose doesn't fit one of the 12025 exemptions (12026, 12026.1, 12026.2, or 12027) it is illegal since you'd be in violation of 12025.

but isn't locked and unloaded the way that they always say to carry a gun? and isn't it the only way to legally transport in most situations? how would it be illegal to lock you unloaded gun in a case and carry it concealed to wherever you're destination is if it's not illegal to leave an unloaded handgun locked up in you car 24/7????

GrizzlyGuy
11-22-2009, 3:41 PM
but isn't locked and unloaded the way that they always say to carry a gun? and isn't it the only way to legally transport in most situations? how would it be illegal to lock you unloaded gun in a case and carry it concealed to wherever you're destination is if it's not illegal to leave an unloaded handgun locked up in you car 24/7????

No, see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3281716&postcount=57) and here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3186235&postcount=3), then read the linked statutes. When you are in or on a motor vehicle, things get a lot better thanks to 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) and LUCC is fine.

Storing 24/7 in your car is a gray area, as 12026.1 applies to transporting a firearm and not storing one. While transporting, it would be covered by this in 12026.1:

The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.

IrishPirate
11-22-2009, 5:21 PM
what about this little gem from 12026.1

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.

doesn't this mean you can carry a gun with you as long as it's locked up "in accordance with this chapter"??

GrizzlyGuy
11-22-2009, 5:29 PM
what about this little gem from 12026.1

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.

doesn't this mean you can carry a gun with you as long as it's locked up "in accordance with this chapter"??

You'll see confusing text like that in a variety of the sections that list exceptions to some other section. It basically means 'these are exceptions to some other nasty law, these aren't nasty laws in and of themselves, so chill out if you don't need these exceptions in the first place'.

For example, if you were legally OC-ing, nothing said in 12026.1 could make it illegal. But it doesn't mean that you can always carry a concealable weapon locked up in a container (and therefore concealed).

Meplat
11-22-2009, 5:51 PM
I'm sorry, but all I see in all of this is don't transport to a prohibited place. Self defense is a lawful purpose. Transporting to places of business and private property are specifically exempted. To and from the vehicle is protected. If you clam up they have to prove where you are going and what your 'intent' is.

My take is; locked container, good to go.

:43:



No, see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3281716&postcount=57) and here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3186235&postcount=3), then read the linked statutes. When you are in or on a motor vehicle, things get a lot better thanks to 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) and LUCC is fine.

Storing 24/7 in your car is a gray area, as 12026.1 applies to transporting a firearm and not storing one. While transporting, it would be covered by this in 12026.1:

GrizzlyGuy
11-22-2009, 5:58 PM
If you clam up they have to prove where you are going and what your 'intent' is.

My take is; locked container, good to go.

:43:

Absolutely, if you do this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) instead of trying to be Mr. Nice Guy, you have virtually zero worries. :D

Meplat
11-22-2009, 6:06 PM
We are in total agreement.

It has been hard for me to accept, it goes against my nature, but what I have learned on Cal-Guns and what I have been advised by my lawyer has convinced me that the best course of action is respectful silence.




Absolutely, if you do this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) instead of trying to be Mr. Nice Guy, you have virtually zero worries. :D