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View Full Version : If LOC was legal, would you?


blackrifle242
11-19-2009, 9:07 PM
I have been hearing allot about incorp. and what it might bring. So my question is if there were no gun free zones and LOC were legal, how many people would carry and how often. Sorry the poll went south before I could save it. :(

SCREW THE POLL!! I MESSED UP!! :eek:

Digital_Boy
11-19-2009, 9:23 PM
I hate simplistic all or nothing polls.

Letitrip
11-19-2009, 9:25 PM
I voted everyday, but in reality, I would not do it every single day.

There are times that are good for things while other times that are bad for that exact thing. LOC is one of those things.

technique
11-19-2009, 9:30 PM
LOC is legal for me....

I voted no.
To me any OC isn't an option.
I don't want people knowing I am
armed, period.

Think about it. If you put your self on the other side. Be the BG!
You walk in to a store to rob it...You shoot the first person with a gun you see...be it a person shopping in the store or an armed security guard.

I would rather CC and not be captain obvious.

GM4spd
11-19-2009, 9:31 PM
Openly carrying an unloaded firearm is like using a condom with a hole in
it. Why????? Neither one offers any real protection! Pete

Amacias805
11-19-2009, 9:33 PM
not great choices .... because i definitely wouldn't carry everyday, but i would carry from time to time

Theseus
11-19-2009, 9:34 PM
Are you kidding? Everywhere! When I carried I did so everywhere. . . banks, hospitals, doctors offices, even a Chuck E Cheeses!

blackrifle242
11-19-2009, 9:35 PM
I screwed up sorry!!!!!! My poll sucks!!!!!! By the way GM4spd, the question was about loaded open carry (LOC) and Not unloaded open carry (UOC) And yes your analogy is a good one.

Matt C
11-19-2009, 9:36 PM
Openly carrying an unloaded firearm is like using a condom with a hole in
it. Why????? Neither one offers any real protection! Pete

Great rhetoric, except the poll is about LOADED open carry, hence the L.

Knauga
11-19-2009, 9:38 PM
I think it should be allowed, I just wouldn't do it. I would rather leave something to the imagination ;)

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 9:39 PM
Openly carrying an unloaded firearm is like using a condom with a hole in
it. Why????? Neither one offers any real protection! Pete
I agree with that. While I understand the desire of the UOC community to make a point about our 2A rights, I won't do it.

However, the poll is regarding loaded OC.

I voted yes, but in reality, I'm a bit closer to Tech's position... while I probably would still LOC in many situations, I would prefer to simply CC.

The Director
11-19-2009, 9:41 PM
I would never open carry. I just don't want the attention. What I do want to be able to do want to do is carry concealed whenever I feel the need to and keep a pistol in the glove box for emergencies.

I suppose that's pretty much what we all want....:)

Meplat
11-19-2009, 9:45 PM
It is, and I do.

blackrifle242
11-19-2009, 9:48 PM
I am one that would also rather CC but if LOC was legal then I would have one in the car (that is if they allowed LOC in a car). I am always afraid of driving with my 22 month old daughter in the car and someone trying to carjack. Kind of like Brian's story on 640. Granted the guy would have got a 4" benchmade in his throat the minute he demanded my car using force. My daughter is my life and NOTHING will stop me from protecting her.

tombinghamthegreat
11-19-2009, 9:54 PM
I would

five.five-six
11-19-2009, 9:55 PM
condition one baby

Amacias805
11-19-2009, 10:14 PM
Are you kidding? Everywhere! When I carried I did so everywhere. . . banks, hospitals, doctors offices, even a Chuck E Cheeses!

where you ever told to leave banks,

Theseus
11-19-2009, 10:18 PM
where you ever told to leave banks,

I have only been asked to leave one business and that was Chuck E Cheese's and that was after being there for more than an hour and we were leaving anyway. On the contrary many of the businesses I interacted with were not only comfortable with it, but encouraged my business. . . Even the laundry mat that is the center of my legal battle.

glockwise2000
11-19-2009, 10:23 PM
I voted yes. But not every single day I guess.

pullnshoot25
11-19-2009, 10:31 PM
I would hit it and never quit it.

CABilly
11-19-2009, 10:32 PM
Yes, but not always. Depends on where I was going, what I was doing, etc.

JDoe
11-19-2009, 10:35 PM
I voted everyday because it was better than never but would prefer to CC most of the time.

nick
11-19-2009, 10:50 PM
It would depend on the situation. In the woods, yes, I'd LOC. If I had the option to CC, then that's what I'd do in the city. If I didn't have the option to CC, I'd LOC.

Mayhem
11-19-2009, 11:09 PM
There are times I would like to LOC times I would Like to CCW there are also times I would feel more comfortable UOC (keep in mine I'm thinking unchambered) and Times I would feel it best to not carry. It all depends on where I'm going, and what I'm doing or planing to do.

Liberty1
11-19-2009, 11:40 PM
Here I am, Captain Obvious!!! (you can see that I believe greatly in the power of visual deterrences) read on for a more involved explanation: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

blackrifle242
11-19-2009, 11:59 PM
Liberty1 that was an outstanding piece of literature. Thank you for sharing that. I have taken your points and now have a better perspective on the subject. I have heard the "you will be a target" argument many times and I see your point on that issue. Thanks again

CalNRA
11-20-2009, 12:54 AM
I would.

Well, there are those occasions...like your inlaw's house. That is best dealt with CCW.

a1c
11-20-2009, 6:36 AM
I would while at home, hiking or camping in wilderness areas or forests. I wouldn't in town or most other public places.

SteveH
11-20-2009, 6:47 AM
Yes. Yes i would.

Glock22Fan
11-20-2009, 7:14 AM
I would.

Well, there are those occasions...like your inlaw's house. That is best dealt with CCW.

I guess you've met my inlaws :D

"A 223? Who needs a gun that can fire 223 rounds a minute?"

"Why does Sarah Palin (or anyone else) need a machine gun to hunt moose?"

FeuerFrei
11-20-2009, 7:33 AM
Affirm your rights everyday!
LOC everyday = excercise 2nd amend.
Saying what you think = 1rst amend.

Use it or loose it!

Eckolaker
11-20-2009, 8:09 AM
LOC is legal for me....

I voted no.
To me any OC isn't an option.
I don't want people knowing I am
armed, period.

Think about it. If you put your self on the other side. Be the BG!
You walk in to a store to rob it...You shoot the first person with a gun you see...be it a person shopping in the store or an armed security guard.

I would rather CC and not be captain obvious.


Okay, I am the BG. I walk in to the store and notice 4 out of 6 patrons are all carrying and now I likely suspect the clerk behind the counter has a loaded Mossberg 500.

Now who do I shoot first? Or do I have a sudden change in heart?

To each their own, but I will still treat all concealed weapon carriers with scrutiny until they prove otherwise. As I do not know if you are concealing your weapon due to malicious intent or if you are doing so for your own safety.

I also maintain the position women should be able to conceal a small pistol in their purses without a permit.

oldrifle
11-20-2009, 8:13 AM
I can't vote because my answer is "sometimes". I would LOC in certain situations but in most situations I would not.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-20-2009, 8:16 AM
I would hit it and never quit it.


CLASSIC! Good for when talking about guns too. :)


To Liberty!: That's an outstanding essay on the value & utility of LOC. Plus 1,000 on that.

But, I would carry every day for another reason. This country has gotten too far away from having what Teddy Roosevelt called the "Barbarian Virtue." We've gotten too far away from the "I can do it myself" way of thinking. I myself am cursed with a brother who fully & truly believes that self defense is immoral. He fully & truly believes that stopping bad guys is the job of the cops AND NO ONE ELSE. That to even have the means of doing so is wrong.

He's not alone in this way of thinking. Regarding the most recent attack on the Maersk Alabama, an idiot at the UN (a redundancy, I know) said that carrying guns on ships should be discouraged by the member states because that only "encourages" violence. There are many people in this country (in office & not) who believe this same way. I can see how that could (and did!) "encourage" violence against pirates, but to promote the idea that self defense does anything but discourage violence from pirates is just flat nuts. And, just as having the means of self defense discourages pirates, it discourages your average street thug as well. This is an idea that needs wider distribution.

The value of LOC is not just to keep me safe from harm (though that IS a laudable goal, of course) but to lessen the threat to society at large. If the idea that 'protecting oneself is a good idea' catches on, becomes widespread, then thugs all over will start to think about other ways to get their bling/dope/whatever.

This is partly why I'm so disappointed to see no real effort on the part of the "Right People" to push for unrestricted LOC as the Minimum Constitutional Standard. It isn't just that CCW will come with restrictions that some can't/won't put up with (and are, IMHO, impermissible). It's that LOC could do far more than just keep individuals safe. It could radically alter thinking in general.

The article that mentioned the idiot from the UN also said that US shippers are ignoring the "advice" & leading the way in arming their ships. Which brings to mind the calls from overseas gun grabbers who urge that we in the US stop fighting the issue & start thinking like the UN & "rest of the world" (IE; allow ourselves to be disarmed). While I think that the rest of the world & the US should think alike, I would greatly prefer that the rest of the world start thing like US, rather than the other way around. The first step on that path is to get all of us on the same page. The way that begins is with unrestricted LOC, so that the message (we are free & free people can do for themselves) gets out there with every gun openly carried. That's how we'll prevent the UN's way of 'thinking' from gaining further hold in this country. My brother is lost, but the children (THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) who haven't been hopelessly brainwashed can still be educated.

The Raisuli

Untamed1972
11-20-2009, 8:45 AM
Are we talking LOC is that is the only option? IE no shall issue CCW?

If CCW were not an option, yes I would....everyday whenever possible. There are times when I would not be able to though, like when I am at work. Which sucks because I am out and about ALOT and alone when I am working, sometimes in not so great areas. But there is nothing I can do about that. Would take an act of Congress to change that policy.

But in all my off duty times I totally would. Now if CCW is shall issue I would prolly do that more, and only occasionally OC on those hot summer days and such.

I mean the reality is.....you never gonna know each morning when you get up if the today is the day you're gonna need to defend your life. So I think you either make the choice to always be prepared or not. Cuz you know that murphy is gonna bite you in the arse that one day when you're in a hurry and you don't strap up. It needs to be just part of your routine, like grabbing your wallet and keys.

paul0660
11-20-2009, 8:55 AM
Since you nixed school zones, I said yes. I also pulled some teeth out and stuck them under my pillow because I am a little broke this month.

383green
11-20-2009, 9:09 AM
I voted "every day", but I'd do it a lot less frequently than that (but certainly not "never"). I'd prefer CCW if I had the choice, but in any case I don't think that a lawful open carrier should be at risk of prosecution if their weapon accidentally becomes concealed, nor do I believe that a lawful concealed carrier should be at risk of prosecution if their weapon accidentally becomes exposed.

Untamed1972
11-20-2009, 9:17 AM
I also maintain the position women should be able to conceal a small pistol in their purses without a permit.


What makes women entitled to exercise a freedom w/o a permit then men would not be able to?

Sounds rather sexist and discriminatory to me.

Roadrunner
11-20-2009, 9:21 AM
There is a time and a place for LOC. Personally, I carry my 1911 when I go hiking in the hills. I'm not concerned about human encounters but there are predators prowling about and I prefer to not be their next meal.

383green
11-20-2009, 9:23 AM
Here I am, Captain Obvious!!! (you can see that I believe greatly in the power of visual deterrences) read on for a more involved explanation: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

Thanks for sharing that! The author's reasoning makes a lot of sense to me.

mcsoupman
11-20-2009, 9:24 AM
I would.

Well, there are those occasions...like your inlaw's house. That is best dealt with CCW.

Are you kidding, that might be best place to LOC if you know what I mean! :43:

SgtDinosaur
11-20-2009, 9:30 AM
I would probably do what I did in Alaska. LOC in the boonies, CCW in town.

Eckolaker
11-20-2009, 9:34 AM
What makes women entitled to exercise a freedom w/o a permit then men would not be able to?

Sounds rather sexist and discriminatory to me.

Only if you think it is.

Personally, I hate the idea of having permits at all. It does promote privilege over rights.

It also further perpetuates the FUD that you need a permit to own a firearm period, which you constantly see in Hollywood movies and TV.

Canute
11-20-2009, 10:09 AM
I wouldn't say "never", but I have a much stronger preference for CCW.

rod
11-20-2009, 10:29 AM
Depends on what I'm wearing. Usually, I like to CCW, but sometimes I have to LOC. When I go out to eat somewhere that serves alcohol, I have to LOC as required by VA state law.

Untamed1972
11-20-2009, 11:16 AM
Only if you think it is.

Personally, I hate the idea of having permits at all. It does promote privilege over rights.

It also further perpetuates the FUD that you need a permit to own a firearm period, which you constantly see in Hollywood movies and TV.

I'm just wondering why you specifically single out women as being deserving to carry a concealed weapon w/o a permit (which would lead one to believe you think men should need a permit)? Why not just say, you're against permits period?

Quser.619
11-20-2009, 11:25 AM
Like most, I think that I prefer the decision be left up to me, the law abiding citizen w/ everything to lose. I'd like to be able to LOC & CCW when I decide when that's best. Either/or is barely acceptable, but both should be allowed. I'm tired of having my rights infringed by laws that equate everyone else w/ the least or worst of our society

technique
11-20-2009, 11:56 AM
Okay, I am the BG. I walk in to the store and notice 4 out of 6 patrons are all carrying and now I likely suspect the clerk behind the counter has a loaded Mossberg 500.

Now who do I shoot first? Or do I have a sudden change in heart?

To each their own, but I will still treat all concealed weapon carriers with scrutiny until they prove otherwise. As I do not know if you are concealing your weapon due to malicious intent or if you are doing so for your own safety.

I also maintain the position women should be able to conceal a small pistol in their purses without a permit.


Well, for some perspective...
I have lived in a free state for about 2 months now.
It is legal to LOC...how many people have I seen LOC? 0
Haven't seen a single person with an exposed weapon at all.

I woulds say that is largely due to the shall issue status of the state.
Out of the 10 or so shooting buddies I have made here, 8 CCW.
The majority of guys on the local board here CCW as well.

I was talking to a county sheriff the other day at the range,
he was admiring my pistol. He asked if it was my carry weapon, and
I said no and told him I hadn't received my CCW yet....
He said well you can always LOC it until you do...
Talk about culture shock!


Point is...LOC is legal for me...I have yet to walk into a situation
where there were several exposed firearms...in my experiences there
I haven't seen any. Here, the chances of me even running into more
than 1 LOCer are slim, let alone your hypothetical.

secretasianman
11-20-2009, 12:46 PM
I would LOC If it were legal, I won't get arrested within 1000ft of a K-12 school (they're all over the place), and if CCW are not Shall Issue.

Turo
11-20-2009, 12:57 PM
Heck yeah! Although I think ccw would be better at school, just so the hippies don't hassle me. Then again, I don't think any of them have the balls to walk up to a dude with a gun and tell 'em off.

Heck I already piss 'em off enough when my mode of transportation through campus is gas-powered instead of a bicycle.

PEBKAC
11-20-2009, 4:31 PM
I'd get a 2 point sling for an AR, load it up, strap it on, and never look back.

If only if only...:rolleyes:

Shotgun Man
11-20-2009, 5:57 PM
It is a poorly constructed poll.

Realistically, I would think at least most civilians would carry some of the time.

I could not vote because there is no true answer.

BTW, "everyday" should be "every day." Although "everyday" is a word-- an adjective, (as in my everyday gun)-- in the sense you are using it, it is an adverbial phrase and should be two words, (as in I carry every day.)

dustoff31
11-20-2009, 6:20 PM
Well, for some perspective...
I have lived in a free state for about 2 months now.
It is legal to LOC...how many people have I seen LOC? 0
Haven't seen a single person with an exposed weapon at all.

I woulds say that is largely due to the shall issue status of the state.
Out of the 10 or so shooting buddies I have made here, 8 CCW.
The majority of guys on the local board here CCW as well.

I was talking to a county sheriff the other day at the range,
he was admiring my pistol. He asked if it was my carry weapon, and
I said no and told him I hadn't received my CCW yet....
He said well you can always LOC it until you do...
Talk about culture shock!


Point is...LOC is legal for me...I have yet to walk into a situation
where there were several exposed firearms...in my experiences there
I haven't seen any. Here, the chances of me even running into more
than 1 LOCer are slim, let alone your hypothetical.

More or less the same story for AZ, at least where I live.

In fact, most all the Open Carriers seen around here are visitors from CA.

freakshow10mm
11-20-2009, 6:34 PM
Michigan is an open carry state. We don't differentiate versus unloaded or loaded and the thought of carrying an unloaded gun just doesn't make sense to me.

I open carry about 90% of the time. In the "pistol free zones" it's illegal to carry concealed but if one has a CPL they can open carry. Walk into a bar, tuck your shirt behind your gun, go to the bathroom, walk out, pull your shirt over your gun. Go on with life.

I open carry in town and in the woods on my in-law's farm. The cops up here, both local and state, are well versed in carry laws. We even have state preemption that says a local unit of government can't regulate the manner in which firearms are carried.

Another virtue of open carry being legal is if I am carrying concealed and print, open carry is legal and it's no big deal.

technique
11-20-2009, 6:59 PM
Another virtue of open carry being legal is if I am carrying concealed and print, open carry is legal and it's no big deal.

I'm convinced thats why, more or less there is a LOC law in shall issue states...

If I (one who likes loose fit jeans, and lets em sag a bit:D) bend over to get something off the bottom shelf at the supermarket...my CC weapon for that time period becomes exposed to the public..LOC laws protect me. I didn't just "brandish" a weapon...

I'm walking back out to my car after my purchase and a gust of wind once again exposes my CCW...I'm again covered.

freakshow10mm
11-20-2009, 7:09 PM
MI is one of the few that has never ever banned carrying a pistol, either openly or concealed. Open carry has never been regulated and concealment has required a license since 1925 (thank the KKK). Also in MI brandishing is "waiving or displaying in a threatening manner" and is held that "a pistol openly carried in a holster is not brandishing" by AG opinion. In MI, the AG's opinion is treated as case law as that is how the law is to be enforced.

JagerTroop
11-21-2009, 12:58 AM
I voted everyday, but in reality, I would not do it every single day.

There are times that are good for things while other times that are bad for that exact thing. LOC is one of those things.

+1

My thoughts exactly

KylaGWolf
11-21-2009, 5:48 PM
Openly carrying an unloaded firearm is like using a condom with a hole in
it. Why????? Neither one offers any real protection! Pete

They were asking if you would LOADED Open Carry. And for now UOC is the only legal option. BTW if you practice you can load a magazine in to your gun pretty darn quick so not quite as useless as you think.

KylaGWolf
11-21-2009, 5:53 PM
I agree with that. While I understand the desire of the UOC community to make a point about our 2A rights, I won't do it.

However, the poll is regarding loaded OC.

I voted yes, but in reality, I'm a bit closer to Tech's position... while I probably would still LOC in many situations, I would prefer to simply CC.

Now given a choice I would rather CCW or LOC and would do so every single chance that I could :). But unfortunately our state seems to think that UOC is the only option at this time.

While yes I also carry UOC for my 2A rights. My main reason doing so is because it is still my best chance of protecting myself if the situation warrants it. See I can load my gun and shoot faster than I can get away from a situation. I can't run so if I get in to a situation where I have to defend myself in that way loading that unloaded gun and using it is my best chance. So all those that think that UOC is just for show are wrong.

SJgunguy24
11-21-2009, 5:56 PM
Hell yeah, everyday.

technique
11-21-2009, 5:58 PM
So all those that think that UOC is just for show are wrong.

But, that would be a point made by some advocates of UOC...
They say it is a show as well as a deterrent (by show, open) to a would be criminal that may...Say, take advantage of someone like you. By your descrition, disabled.
I mean that as respectfully as possible!:)

Can you elaborate?

radioman
11-21-2009, 6:29 PM
I voted yes, but not every day or everywhere. like going to my mom's, or at work, maybe keep it in my desk. going out to dinner, hell yes.

bigcalidave
11-21-2009, 9:53 PM
I'm convinced thats why, more or less there is a LOC law in shall issue states...

If I (one who likes loose fit jeans, and lets em sag a bit:D) bend over to get something off the bottom shelf at the supermarket...my CC weapon for that time period becomes exposed to the public..LOC laws protect me. I didn't just "brandish" a weapon...

I'm walking back out to my car after my purchase and a gust of wind once again exposes my CCW...I'm again covered.

That's the only reason I would want LOC laws as well. And while camping, hunting, fishing, etc. There is really no reason, where CCW is legal, to walk around with your gun on your hip. If CCW is not provided for, then I understand. And somehow, if LOC becomes legal, we become shall issue CCW VERY FAST... OMG everybody has a gun!

Window_Seat
11-21-2009, 10:29 PM
'Scuse me for sounding like a broken record, but I would like to see LOC (especially), CCW, etc. become protected activies before I do so in places where the right is rabidly hated and taken away. We are on our way to that being a reality here, but it won't happen overnight.

Erik.

Seesm
11-21-2009, 10:34 PM
Not me...

I think concealed is the safest way ALWAYS... (In a badguys head) "So is that lady or the guy there armed? ....Hhhmm I better be a good person cuz they may kill me for watever I do bad to them"

pullnshoot25
11-21-2009, 11:13 PM
Not me...

I think concealed is the safest way ALWAYS... (In a badguys head) "So is that lady or the guy there armed? ....Hhhmm I better be a good person cuz they may kill me for watever I do bad to them"

Or, the far more effective way...

'HOLY ****, Granny has the booming rolling stick, I better steer clear of her Welfare!"

The whole "surprise" thing is a crap theory.

Seesm
11-21-2009, 11:37 PM
Or, the far more effective way...

'HOLY ****, Granny has the booming rolling stick, I better steer clear of her Welfare!"

The whole "surprise" thing is a crap theory.

Your saying the surprise deal is a crap theory? Nah your kidding yourself sorry.

I know your a heavy pusher of uoc and that is fine but the bad person will come after you prior to me (cuz they think your dangerous and they have no clue I have a gun) if I have a ccw...

Cokebottle
11-21-2009, 11:43 PM
Your saying the surprise deal is a crap theory? Nah your kidding yourself sorry.

I know your a heavy pusher of uoc and that is fine but the bad person will come after you prior to me (cuz they think your dangerous and they have no clue I have a gun) if I have a ccw...
That's under the current laws, and current enforcement (or harassment depending on how you see it) of those carrying UOC.

IF LOC were legal, and if GFSZ were not an issue, so you could legally carry loaded anywhere that you may currently legally carry concealed, the number of people carrying would increase dramatically.

See the example above of the BG walking into a bank. He knows the security guard has a gun, so his plan would be to take him out first.
If he going to take that first step when one, two, or five customers are carrying? Suddenly, the current assumption of a 1:1 fight (BG operating under the assumption that no cutomers are CCW, which is a fair assessment given restrictions)... that 1:1 assumption changes to a known 2:1, 3:1, or 5:1 fight. If he takes that first step and shoots the security guard, or one of the armed customers, the others will take him out before he gets close to the teller.

technique
11-21-2009, 11:57 PM
That's under the current laws, and current enforcement (or harassment depending on how you see it) of those carrying UOC.

IF LOC were legal, and if GFSZ were not an issue, so you could legally carry loaded anywhere that you may currently legally carry concealed, the number of people carrying would increase dramatically.

See the example above of the BG walking into a bank. He knows the security guard has a gun, so his plan would be to take him out first.
If he going to take that first step when one, two, or five customers are carrying? Suddenly, the current assumption of a 1:1 fight (BG operating under the assumption that no cutomers are CCW, which is a fair assessment given restrictions)... that 1:1 assumption changes to a known 2:1, 3:1, or 5:1 fight. If he takes that first step and shoots the security guard, or one of the armed customers, the others will take him out before he gets close to the teller.

I understand your theory of "increased numbers" once legal....but as you have been told by myself and another from AZ...and even reports of CGers traveling to "free states" where OC is legal.

Dude...thats kind of a fantasy. Thats not how it actually is.
I am actually actively LOOKING for OCer's in my area. I have joined OCDO to find em....dude, that section is DEAD!!!

But I can tell you for sure....there ARE a ridiculous amount of CCWs issued.
I have family at the PO (they know what they are because the CC)

Now, I'm not saying that in theory if in fact a lot of people did OC, that your hypothetical scenario isn't possible....it very well could be. I'm just saying..Where are these people?

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 12:27 AM
I understand your theory of "increased numbers" once legal....but as you have been told by myself and another from AZ...and even reports of CGers traveling to "free states" where OC is legal.
The "newness" will take care of the numbers.
Free states, for a large part, have either always been free states or have been for a decade or two.

Looking at another interest of mine... motorcycling... "free states" (no helmet law) have probably 50% of riders wearing a helmet. What's the first thing a California rider does when he crosses into Arizona? He pulls off, usually before Quarzite, and the helmet goes on the sissy bar.

The only thing that would keep that from happening with LOC would be suppression of the new law by the press. Forum members are a minority of the gun owning public. Heck, look how many "Oh wow, I have an unregistered AW" threads we have... 10-20 years after the bans. The media does not spread good news to the gun owning community, and it's not hard to overlook the bad news. We are going to be responsible for getting the word out ourselves... same as with the OLL issue. How long did that take to get off the ground once the legalities were ironed out?

Once the novelty of legal LOC wears off, the numbers will drop, but by that time, the BGs will have gotten the message that people do carry.

hollabillz
11-22-2009, 2:25 AM
Okay, I am the BG. I walk in to the store and notice 4 out of 6 patrons are all carrying and now I likely suspect the clerk behind the counter has a loaded Mossberg 500.

Now who do I shoot first? Or do I have a sudden change in heart?

To each their own, but I will still treat all concealed weapon carriers with scrutiny until they prove otherwise. As I do not know if you are concealing your weapon due to malicious intent or if you are doing so for your own safety.

I also maintain the position women should be able to conceal a small pistol in their purses without a permit.

CC = malicious intent? FYI, once you start insulting people who disagree with your point of view, your credibility goes to ****. And the senseless logic works the other way around: CC'ers could assume LOC'ers are all criminals with malicious intent because who knows if they're about to commit a gruesome crime where being identified with a firearm would be the least of their worries. The only way I know you're not about to start a bloody, kamikaze rampage is if you're CC'ing. Why would a lunatic go to the trouble of hiding their weapon? :rolleyes:

I will now go back to doing what every other sensible member of this forum does when you repeat the same illogical insult about LOC vs CC. (It's not pay close attention to you.) :)

Maestro Pistolero
11-22-2009, 3:07 AM
The poll choices suck. If you can answer it that definitively, you haven't thought it through. It IS legal where I live and I occasionally LOC, in CERTAIN circumstances. I'll leave it at that.

cadurand
11-22-2009, 5:34 AM
Your saying the surprise deal is a crap theory? Nah your kidding yourself sorry.

I know your a heavy pusher of uoc and that is fine but the bad person will come after you prior to me (cuz they think your dangerous and they have no clue I have a gun) if I have a ccw...I don't understand this logic and why we keep applying it to criminals.

First, if I were going to say rob a 7-11 with a gun and upon entering the store I saw 1 or 2 people openly carrying firearms I'd probably wait for them to leave. Or find another 7-11 to rob with hopefully less armed people inside of it.

I don't think criminals are looking for a shootout at every opportunity. I think criminals want to avoid getting shot just as much as anyone else.

Liberty1
11-22-2009, 12:36 PM
This link, "the OC argument", addresses quite well some of the tactical considerations of OC. http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

So far in OC states the "fear" of gun grabs and being shot first is unfounded. And an OCer in Virginia recently successfully engaged an armed robber who started shooting in a convenience store. (still looking for that link:()

technique
11-22-2009, 12:49 PM
So far in OC states the "fear" of gun grabs and being shot first is unfounded. And an OCer in Virginia recently successfully engaged an armed robber who started shooting in a convenience store. (still looking for that link:()

But, I though...Shootings don't happen when a gun is visible. Yet an OCer stopped exactly what "doesn't happen". A CCer could have done the same in the same situation...

No matter what the argument always goes in circles on both sides! And thats just how it seems to me. I have seen UOC contradict themselves all over the damn place, sometimes in the same breath...I have seen the opposition do the same!

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-22-2009, 1:04 PM
Some days open, some days concealed. All depends on the circumstance.

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 1:07 PM
But, I though...Shootings don't happen when a gun is visible. Yet an OCer stopped exactly what "doesn't happen". A CCer could have done the same in the same situation...
True, but that could have been a case where the BG wasn't aware that others in the store were carrying. If the OCer is standing behind a counter or is around a corner, the BG doesn't know that he's carrying... the gun is concealed from the BG.

If the BG actually sees a gun, if he is working alone, he is more likely to move on to an easier target.

Nothing is absolute. Some BGs are stupid and will open up on a room full of cops.

I'm with you on UOC. It may have a deterrent effect on BGs who don't know that LOC is not legal, or the BG may assume that the person carrying is authorized to LOC... point being that either UOC or LOC introduce a variable to the situation that the BG was not expecting when he targeted the establishment.

CC lacks that deterrent impact. The BG either does or does not consider the possibility of CC when planning his crime. The BG that does consider it will tend to wait until the establishment is less occupied, or may tend to work more quietly.

Liberty1
11-22-2009, 1:12 PM
But, I though...Shootings don't happen when a gun is visible. Yet an OCer stopped exactly what "doesn't happen". A CCer could have done the same in the same situation...

There are no absolutes. Obviously the BG did not see it. I will comment that OC does require a greater level of situational awareness then CC. I still find the "OC argument" compelling. There is also anecdotal evidence the OCed firearms warded off suspicious characters something CC really doesn't do unless the CCer takes some kind of "furtive" movement or convincing eye contact like this :eek:. ;)

What I do hope for is a body of law which allows these discussions to continue where the decision as to how to carry etc... is left up to personal discrimination.

thefurball
11-22-2009, 2:23 PM
If the options are 'yes' or 'no', then yes, yes I would.

I sleep with it every night. Why wouldn't I carry it every day?

Frijolito1988
11-22-2009, 2:27 PM
Never out in public. Only place I will open carry is with other gun guys in a controlled enviroment, at the range, gun oriented bbq , its uselless in public. CC all the way .

Seesm
11-22-2009, 3:12 PM
I don't understand this logic and why we keep applying it to criminals.

First, if I were going to say rob a 7-11 with a gun and upon entering the store I saw 1 or 2 people openly carrying firearms I'd probably wait for them to leave. Or find another 7-11 to rob with hopefully less armed people inside of it.

I don't think criminals are looking for a shootout at every opportunity. I think criminals want to avoid getting shot just as much as anyone else.

I see your point... but I do think you need to be FAR more aware if you OC (LOC or UOC) with CC not as much but of course you still do...

berto
11-22-2009, 4:19 PM
Why show my hand?

pullnshoot25
11-22-2009, 5:44 PM
Damn. Some of you guys are real ninny-muggins.

thebronze
11-22-2009, 5:51 PM
LOC is legal for me....

I voted no.
To me any OC isn't an option.
I don't want people knowing I am
armed, period.

Think about it. If you put your self on the other side. Be the BG!
You walk in to a store to rob it...You shoot the first person with a gun you see...be it a person shopping in the store or an armed security guard.

I would rather CC and not be captain obvious.

+ 1,000,000 on that!

AGrey
11-22-2009, 6:30 PM
It couldn't be one or the other with me.

I would carry LOC without a doubt during the times I go fishing with my girlfriend in some pretty shady neighborhoods. But around my neck of the woods, I wouldn't see the point majority of the time

sammy
11-22-2009, 7:05 PM
I am not going to vote here because no one is would do either. In my neighborhood I can safely say that I would not carry 95% of the time. The oppisite could be said traveling to work, at work and back.

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-23-2009, 12:04 AM
Why show my hand?

That's always been my philosophy. No sense in playing gun poker with my hand showing.

Dr Rockso
11-23-2009, 12:08 AM
Given the choice between CC and OC I'll conceal every time. I really don't see any particular advantage of OC. Now if the choice is OC or nothing, I might OC very occasionally in rare circumstances.

AndrewMendez
11-23-2009, 12:30 AM
I am one that would also rather CC but if LOC was legal then I would have one in the car (that is if they allowed LOC in a car). I am always afraid of driving with my 22 month old daughter in the car and someone trying to carjack. Kind of like Brian's story on 640. Granted the guy would have got a 4" benchmade in his throat the minute he demanded my car using force. My daughter is my life and NOTHING will stop me from protecting her.

That pretty much sums up the entire situation.

Spearo
11-23-2009, 3:04 AM
I would LOC very conservatively. Probably only while fishing, hiking, and hunting.
If someone sees you OC, and still decides to go after you, they are very determined.

I would strongly prefer concealed carry. You have the element of surprise. The criminals don't know what is coming. Plus, you don't get the sheep all riled up.:)
1911 in condition 1, tucked in the small of your back... makes me all warm and fuzzy thinking about it.

Kharn
11-23-2009, 7:09 AM
I'd like to have open carry (loaded, of course), not worrying about a 5" 1911 printing or having to settle for something smaller would be a relief.

ChrisO
12-21-2009, 10:11 AM
I would do it every day...

Python2
12-21-2009, 10:21 AM
LOC in Rural areas, yes. LOC in Urban areas, no. I just cannot imagine myself packing a Kimber exposed doing the tango in San Francisco.

Sionadi
12-21-2009, 12:12 PM
LOC anywhere and everywhere.

I find that OC is a very good deterrent to criminals. You say they will shoot me first because i have a firearm in plain view, i think most criminals wont dare to rob the store because a OCer is present.

A criminal will also think a CCer is unarmed until he shows otherwise and will treat them as someone that is unarmed and helpless.

Dangerpin
12-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Poll needs an "Occasionally" answer.

I'm not sure I would use the option, but would love to have the option and know that others had the option.

Meplat
12-21-2009, 1:04 PM
Stupid poll. Where is the sometimes?

Meplat
12-21-2009, 1:19 PM
I voted never because I have a CCW. I do LOC when I am hunting.

If I did not have a CCW I would LOC, maybe, at times. But I have to admit I would probably LCC more.

HowardW56
12-21-2009, 1:24 PM
I hate simplistic all or nothing polls.

I agree.... It is idiotic to think that could realistically answer 100% that they would or wouldn't...

Hopi
12-21-2009, 1:25 PM
Stupid poll. Where is the sometimes?

Like a seatbelt, if you don't wear it all the time...what's the point?

Meplat
12-21-2009, 1:29 PM
Good point it would probably deter a lot of crime. I have never been in a hunting camp or field where polite respect was not the order of things. But on the other hand the determined criminal would know in advance that he needed to back shoot or bushwack you. Only works with wide participation, so the low lives know there is always another righteous upstanding citizen just around the corner. :43:

LOC anywhere and everywhere.

I find that OC is a very good deterrent to criminals. You say they will shoot me first because i have a firearm in plain view, i think most criminals wont dare to rob the store because a OCer is present.

A criminal will also think a CCer is unarmed until he shows otherwise and will treat them as someone that is unarmed and helpless.

Meplat
12-21-2009, 1:33 PM
Like a seatbelt, if you don't wear it all the time...what's the point?

Oh, I'll have it all the time. It's just that in some circumstances I would rather carry concealed, the law be damned.:43: