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five.five-six
11-19-2009, 8:00 PM
so... I own a condo... the common area is my property right? there is a school down the street :(

can I concealed carry on the grounds of my condo, as I am an owner? how about open carry? do I have to stay away from the school?

I am soooo confused

MudCamper
11-19-2009, 8:17 PM
As I understand it, the publicly accessible areas of the condo are not private for purposes of 12025 (concealed) and 12031 (loaded), so you cannot load or conceal there. In order for them to be private, the public must be barred from access by a wall or fence.

With regard to school zones, you are legal to UOC on your private property according to the letter of the law (626.9), BUT the judge in Theseus' case ruled otherwise, declaring private property open to the public not to be private. This is literally a case of legislating from the bench. It's a really bad call on his part, but beware - it can therefore happen to you.

KylaGWolf
11-19-2009, 8:22 PM
Unless those grounds are fenced in I wouldn't open carry outside your condo unless you are over 1000' away from the school. As Mudcamper stated it could be considered public property and not private. see I am lucky the apartment complex I live in is gated so I can sit in the courtyard with my gun and be perfectly legal. I wouldn't CCW at all unless you are legally able to do so.

five.five-six
11-19-2009, 8:25 PM
the school wall is ~ 300 yards from my house, the school building is over 1/2 mile

Mayhem
11-19-2009, 9:19 PM
It is in my understanding that You don't need have your private property fenced or walled off but instead have the power to challenge some ones presence there (hey get off my property) and press trespassing. But if they are on the sidewalk in-front of your property you loose that power and if you step onto the side walk you are now in Public.

However In apartment complexes and Condo you pretty much loose that power outside your unit (beyond your porch and patio).

Now if your Condo complex is fenced and gated you may be able to get by the Public Private issue with the school zone. I would be very careful with this I wouldn't UOC LOC or CCW unless you have a good legal opinion or two backing you up and about 5k to 10k to prove your case if you are challenged.

I would assume in a Fenced and Gated complex You may be able to get around a 626.9 charge for UOC However You would most likely not be exempt you from CCW laws (12025), or Loaded firearm laws (12031). Without the fence and gate 626.9 would apply at least until Theseus wins his appeal setting case Law and thats IF he wins appeal after all this is California and the Left coast.

Best bet Don't do it, at least until you have better laws and case laws to back you up.

The school zone extends 1000 feet from the schools property - parking lot included (K-12) I would do some map and GPS work from the closest edge of the schools property and add about 15 feet just to be safe Be Aware of School parking lots that are not attached to the school grounds like a parking lot across the street from the school.

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 9:27 PM
It is in my understanding that You don't need have your private property fenced or walled off but instead have the power to challenge some ones presence there (hey get off my property) and press trespassing. But if they are on the sidewalk in-front of your property you loose that power and if you step onto the side walk you are now in Public.
The GFSZ statute 626.9 does not specify your private property, it specifies "place of business, place of residence, or private property" as being exempt from the 1000ft requirement.

Theseus was on a sidewalk in front of a laundromat on 100% private property (with no legal right to evict another LAC). The DA and judge, as pointed out above, ignored the wording of the statute and unlawfully arrested, tried, and convicted him.

GuyW
11-19-2009, 10:04 PM
so... I own a condo... the common area is my property right?

Wrong....
.

KylaGWolf
11-19-2009, 10:05 PM
the school wall is ~ 300 yards from my house, the school building is over 1/2 mile

Then unless that common area is fenced in I wouldn't take that gun out they will measure to the edge of the school property and they will nail you for 626.9.

Librarian
11-19-2009, 10:18 PM
It is in my understanding that You don't need have your private property fenced or walled off but instead have the power to challenge some ones presence there (hey get off my property) and press trespassing.
That is generally considered the right answer - it's called a 'possessory interest'. As a condo owner, one usually has something like 'an undivided 1/250 interest' in those common areas.

You get to pay condo fees to maintain that stuff, but you don't get to throw other residents out, and generally enforcement of trespassing kinds of problems runs through the facility manager. You almost certainly DO have that 'possessory interest' inside your unit, but not hallways, laundry rooms, the grass, the pool area and whatnot.

HOWEVER for purposes of 12025 (concealed) and 12031 (loaded), courts seem to be requiring the fence or other barrier. Principal case is People v Overturf. See the Calguns Foundation Wiki here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California#A_.22Public_Place.22 ).

cmth
11-19-2009, 11:19 PM
Buy a couple hours of an attorney's time and get a real legal opinion. It would go a long way to keeping your butt out of jail. We can go back and forth over definitions and cases but none of us are lawyers. That being said, my personal opinion is that a fenced/gated common area that the general public does not have access to, should meet the definition of private property under 626.9 and Overturf. But I am not a lawyer, and free advice is always the worst kind. Don't call me to bail you out.

Mayhem
11-19-2009, 11:24 PM
The GFSZ statute 626.9 does not specify your private property, it specifies "place of business, place of residence, or private property" as being exempt from the 1000ft requirement.

Theseus was on a sidewalk in front of a laundromat on 100% private property (with no legal right to evict another LAC). The DA and judge, as pointed out above, ignored the wording of the statute and unlawfully arrested, tried, and convicted him.

The law exempts private property not controlled by the school. however The DA and Judge in Theseus case are trying to redefine private property exemption in 626.9 to the same standard as 12025 and 12031. So until Theseus gets his case overturned on appeal creating case law to define the law I would be careful. Until then I would consider open Condo/Apartment complex could be considered as public as home depot or a laundromat parking lot.


That is generally considered the right answer - it's called a 'possessory interest'. As a condo owner, one usually has something like 'an undivided 1/250 interest' in those common areas.

You get to pay condo fees to maintain that stuff, but you don't get to throw other residents out, and generally enforcement of trespassing kinds of problems runs through the facility manager. You almost certainly DO have that 'possessory interest' inside your unit, but not hallways, laundry rooms, the grass, the pool area and whatnot.

HOWEVER for purposes of 12025 (concealed) and 12031 (loaded), courts seem to be requiring the fence or other barrier. Principal case is People v Overturf. See the Calguns Foundation Wiki here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California#A_.22Public_Place.22 ).

In The People v Overturf The appellant owns and manages a three-building apartment complex.

People v. Overturf (1976) 64 Cal App 3d Supp 1 (the driveway at an apartment complex). The locations in each case were private property, but places where the public ordinarily had access in order to do business.

If he had fenced off his section He may have been covered. If it was a single family home he may have been protected.

However if you own and live in a duplex and you rented out the second unit unless you put up a fence to separated your half from the rented half you would not be protected by the exception. Essentially you loose power IF the public and or tenants and/or their guest have legal access, ie you no longer have the power to challenge people at will.

Think of it this way if a LEO is standing on my front lawn and he does not have PC or a Warrant I can tell him to leave. You loose that power with an apartment complex, unless you have a defined boundary separating your area from other tenants and common area's like a fenced patio or porch.

In my posted "No trespassing violators will be shot survivors will be shot again" unfenced front yard of my owned single family home I should be covered unless I step on the sidewalk.

longarmshortlegs
11-22-2009, 5:18 PM
Just Googled this topic and this link came up. Silly me.

So hypothetically beating a brain-dead-but-life-functions-still being-sustained-by-machinery, horse, if my apartment complex was gated at the parking entrances by a six foot steel bar fence, and the only way inside by foot is through one unlocked double door and one locked door, and premise is has surveillence cameras to deter tresspassers.....

would CCW be legal?

Cokebottle
11-22-2009, 5:21 PM
So hypothetically beating a brain-dead-but-life-functions-still being-sustained-by-machinery, horse, if my apartment complex was gated at the parking entrances by a six foot steel bar fence, and the only way inside by foot is through one unlocked double door and one locked door, and premise is has surveillence cameras to deter tresspassers.....

would CCW be legal?
Only with written permission from the property owner.

Not the manager... the actual owner.

jazman
11-22-2009, 5:48 PM
Good grief. If I owned a place where I thought I had to carry a gun in a common area I'd move no matter what the law. If you feel that unsafe where you live, get out of there, it's not worth it. (If you just want to carry your gun or parse semantics, please excuse and ignore this post).

Mayhem
11-23-2009, 8:46 AM
Good grief. If I owned a place where I thought I had to carry a gun in a common area I'd move no matter what the law. If you feel that unsafe where you live, get out of there, it's not worth it. (If you just want to carry your gun or parse semantics, please excuse and ignore this post).

Jazman In most cases on this board it's not about wither you feel you have to carry a gun, It's about wither you have the right to and exercising that right.

five.five-six
11-23-2009, 3:11 PM
I am the V.P. on my H.O.A. B.O.D, does that halp?

GuyW
11-23-2009, 3:43 PM
I am the V.P. on my H.O.A. B.O.D, does that halp?

Not unless it helps you get 100% of the unit owners to sign off on you OCing...
.

five.five-six
11-23-2009, 3:56 PM
that could be arranged

:devil2:

Cokebottle
11-23-2009, 4:04 PM
I am the V.P. on my H.O.A. B.O.D, does that halp?
I'm the P, and FWIW, you can get away with more when you're not on the board.

I bring a work truck home for two days while on call duty, leave MY truck at work, slap my parking permit in the work truck (still a 1-ton, nothing bigger than my old Duramax), and the management office gets letters about me "working out of my home"... when we have at least 3 landscapers "operating" out of here.

five.five-six
11-23-2009, 4:08 PM
yea, I know. everyone else keeps the trash under the stairs... not me.. everyone hates me...

I just had 8 driveways repaved, only 1 car towed.... and I am a dick....because I did not sack a $80,000.00 project to save some idiot a $300 tow

Cokebottle
11-23-2009, 4:14 PM
yea, I know. everyone else keeps the trash under the stairs... not me.. everyone hates me...

I just had 8 driveways repaved, only 1 car towed.... and I am a dick....because I did not sack a $80,000.00 project to save some idiot a $300 tow
I don't even answer the door anymore at 12-5am when someone discovers they were towed for a parking permit or fire lane violation.
Glad they don't have my phone number, but I have the upstairs ringer turned off anyways.

BowenBret
12-23-2009, 10:40 PM
dose it possible to transfer all this....


__________________
Compound Interest Formula (http://compoundinterestformula.net)

five.five-six
12-23-2009, 10:43 PM
dose it possible to transfer all this....


__________________
Compound Interest Formula (http://compoundinterestformula.net)


interesting first and last post

Meplat
12-23-2009, 11:02 PM
I prefer:

Trespassers will be violated

Survivors will be shot

:43:



In my posted "No trespassing violators will be shot survivors will be shot again" unfenced front yard of my owned single family home I should be covered unless I step on the sidewalk.

joelogic
12-23-2009, 11:18 PM
yea, I know. everyone else keeps the trash under the stairs... not me.. everyone hates me...

I just had 8 driveways repaved, only 1 car towed.... and I am a dick....because I did not sack a $80,000.00 project to save some idiot a $300 tow

It costs $80,000 to pave 8 driveways? I should get into paving. ;)

Theseus
12-23-2009, 11:30 PM
I did find a case in reference to loaded where a gated apartment community loaded is A OK because it is not a "public place".

five.five-six
12-23-2009, 11:39 PM
It costs $80,000 to pave 8 driveways? I should get into paving. ;)

these are big driveways, they serve 8-12 garages each...

Glock22Fan
12-24-2009, 8:40 AM
Trespassers will be shot
Survivors will be shot again

longarmshortlegs
12-24-2009, 1:45 PM
I did find a case in reference to loaded where a gated apartment community loaded is A OK because it is not a "public place".

Where it is!?

Theseus
12-24-2009, 3:52 PM
Where it is!?

Dang it. . . I seem to have lost the case reference. IIRC though it was not a loaded case, I believe it was a drunk in public case. Even though a 2nd floor walkway was visible to the public, since the property was gated from the public it was not considered a public place.

Since it isn't a public place it should be copacetic to load up and rock on. . . But I can't find the stupid case.