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Bucky G
11-19-2009, 8:10 AM
I got my Saiga 5.45 yesterday and the factory butt stock seems way too flimsy
I feel like I could put my thumb through it if I squeezed too hard
It can't weigh more than a couple ounces, it's no wonder people convert em.
Are they all like that?

What about the inexpensive plastic Kvar stock sets, are they super flimsy like the one that comes on the Saiga?

thedrickel
11-19-2009, 9:17 AM
They're all like that. Anything from KVAR would be a huge improvement over the OEM stock.

Caseless
11-19-2009, 11:20 AM
There are solid and robust Saiga Russian stocks, so you don't need to do any conversion work.
Disclaimer: Mag lock or Solar Tac pistol grip wrap is mandatory for the setups pictured below. I was trying on different styles of mag locks when I photoed these.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2ugzcxc.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/xfvm9j.jpg

killshot44
11-19-2009, 11:29 AM
Bucky, first off, good on you for getting your Saiga. And in the 5.45 no less!

I bought mine with no intention of converting the trigger placement and bought the RAAI Factory skeleton stock (shown in the picture above, resting on the cooler, complete rifle) from Krebs ($65 was the cheapest you can get it anywhere) http://www.krebscustom.com/PartsPages/KalashnikovParts.shtml they also have a good price on OEM 10rd Saiga magazines...

Of course this stock adds an "evil" feature, so you're gonna need a magazine lock. I recommend the one from Assault Planet for unconverted Saigas. Good luck!

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 12:35 PM
Nice, thanks!
I already got a magazine lock from solar tac but I'll need to convert to use it I think

killshot44
11-19-2009, 1:46 PM
Nice, thanks!
I already got a magazine lock from solar tac but I'll need to convert to use it I think

If you use/like that skeleton stock you don't need to convert. The Assault Planter lock is 29.95 and bolts on in 30 seconds. (Return that Solar Tech BB)

Just my .02;)

stix213
11-19-2009, 2:55 PM
There are solid and robust Saiga Russian stocks, so you don't need to do any conversion work.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2ugzcxc.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/xfvm9j.jpg

I really like the Dragunov style stock personally, its the one I use on my 7.62x39 Saiga. Just an FYI you have to go fixed mag since it is considered an evil feature thumbhole stock, though it is still considered sporting so doesn't trigger 922r. Mine is in my sig pic :)

Henry Hill
11-19-2009, 3:22 PM
http://i29.tinypic.com/xfvm9j.jpg

Where can I get this? No conversion necessary? :eek:

Got a picture with it installed?


Just an FYI you have to go fixed mag since it is considered an evil feature thumbhole stock, though it is still considered sporting so doesn't trigger 922r. Mine is in my sig pic :)

Why would the thumb hole stock not trigger 922r compliance but a PG would? THey are both 'evil' features, arent they?

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 3:33 PM
If you use/like that skeleton stock you don't need to convert. The Assault Planter lock is 29.95 and bolts on in 30 seconds. (Return that Solar Tech BB)

Just my .02;)

thanks!
think I might go that way

I'll keep the solar tac just in case I convert... besides it's just too sexy too return

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 3:35 PM
http://i29.tinypic.com/xfvm9j.jpg

Where can I get this? No conversion necessary? :eek:

Got a picture with it installed?


I like that one too... really sexy

Henry Hill
11-19-2009, 3:40 PM
I like that one too... really sexy

:eek:

need to confirm sexiness with a pic of it installed!

stix213
11-19-2009, 3:47 PM
Why would the thumb hole stock not trigger 922r compliance but a PG would? THey are both 'evil' features, arent they?

922r is a federal law, while the assault weapon 'evil' features list is a California state law. The list of features that are considered 'unsporting' under federal 922r overlaps but is not identical to the California assault weapon features list. Thumbhole stock is considered an assault weapon feature by state law, but is considered a sporting feature under federal 922r.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

This can lead to the interesting predicament of having a Saiga with a detachable 10 round mag and thumbhole stock being officially an illegal assault weapon suitable for sporting purposes :) We should really fire every single person in government with crap laws like these, seriously.

List of features that trigger 922r:

* large capacity magazine
* Folding/telescoping stocks
* Pistol grips
* Ability to accept a bayonet
* Flash suppressors / hiders
* Integrated, military-style bipods
* Grenade launchers
* Night sights

SJgunguy24
11-19-2009, 3:51 PM
http://i29.tinypic.com/xfvm9j.jpg

Garbage, I hope I didn't offend any garbage out there. The conversion is not much more expensive that putting that TAPCO T6 on your rifle.

stix213
11-19-2009, 3:54 PM
Garbage, I hope I didn't offend any garbage out there. The conversion is not much more expensive that putting that TAPCO T6 on your rifle.

Tapco has pics here of the telescoping one, not the folding one:
http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=STK07160BLACK

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 3:55 PM
922r is a federal law, while the assault weapon 'evil' features list is a California state law. The list of features that are considered 'unsporting' under federal 922r overlaps but is not identical to the California assault weapon features list. Thumbhole stock is considered an assault weapon feature by state law, but is considered a sporting feature under federal 922r.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

This can lead to the interesting predicament of having a Saiga with a detachable 10 round mag and thumbhole stock being officially an illegal assault weapon suitable for sporting purposes :) We should really fire every single person in government with crap laws like these, seriously.

List of features that trigger 922r:

* large capacity magazine
* Folding/telescoping stocks
* Pistol grips
* Ability to accept a bayonet
* Flash suppressors / hiders
* Integrated, military-style bipods
* Grenade launchers
* Night sights

you guys got this stuff wired :D

Henry Hill
11-19-2009, 3:59 PM
922r is a federal law, while the assault weapon 'evil' features list is a California state law. The list of features that are considered 'unsporting' under federal 922r overlaps but is not identical to the California assault weapon features list. Thumbhole stock is considered an assault weapon feature by state law, but is considered a sporting feature under federal 922r.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

This can lead to the interesting predicament of having a Saiga with a detachable 10 round mag and thumbhole stock being officially an illegal assault weapon suitable for sporting purposes :) We should really fire every single person in government with crap laws like these, seriously.

List of features that trigger 922r:

* large capacity magazine
* Folding/telescoping stocks
* Pistol grips
* Ability to accept a bayonet
* Flash suppressors / hiders
* Integrated, military-style bipods
* Grenade launchers
* Night sights

Thanks for clearing this up!!!

CA :TFH::TFH:

I found that skeleton stock : http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_38&products_id=495

Looks nice, but not 150$ nice

SJgunguy24
11-19-2009, 4:01 PM
Tapco has pics here of the telescoping one, not the folding one:
http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=STK07160BLACK

My point is, it takes a couple hours,a new stock and a G2 FCG and your done. The rifle is shorter, has it's balance restored, and the trigger is 1000 itmes better. It's also not gonna look goofy with the trigger 3" behind the mag anymore.
The bolt on grip is for the laziest of the lazy IMO and is only for those who are too scared to do the conversion or haven't done their homework yet.

Caseless
11-19-2009, 4:08 PM
Thanks for clearing this up!!!

CA :TFH::TFH:

I found that skeleton stock : http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_38&products_id=495

Looks nice, but not 150$ nice

That's the ACE brand stock. I bought the OEM Russian folder. It cost way more than $150.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=147397942
It just sits in the safe,now. Since I found out the folder setup is a no-no on a Saiga 12, even with a mag lock.:chris:

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 4:09 PM
My point is, it takes a couple hours,a new stock and a G2 FCG and your done. The rifle is shorter, has it's balance restored, and the trigger is 1000 itmes better. It's also not gonna look goofy with the trigger 3" behind the mag anymore.
The bolt on grip is for the laziest of the lazy IMO and is only for those who are too scared to do the conversion or haven't done their homework yet.

I seen your conversions, top notch

If you use a standard ak stock, you have to cut the tang flush at the rear of the receiver right?
do you have to buy that fifty dollar internal stock mount deal to mount the stock then?

SJgunguy24
11-19-2009, 4:13 PM
I seen your conversions, top notch

If you use a standard ak stock, you have to cut the tang flush at the rear of the receiver right?
do you have to buy that fifty dollar internal stock mount deal to mount the stock then?

Nope just slide right in there. The tang is part of the original design.

Caseless
11-19-2009, 4:20 PM
The bolt on grip is for the laziest of the lazy IMO and is only for those who are too scared to do the conversion or haven't done their homework yet.
I like to keep the bolt hold open feature on the Saiga 12. :balloon:

SJgunguy24
11-19-2009, 4:26 PM
I like to keep the bolt hold open feature on the Saiga 12. :balloon:

That's easy enough with a conversion, just need to cut the hammer a bit. Or if there's enough parts re use the OE hammer.
I have modified the selectors as a bolt hold open in my guns. The factory BHO don't do a very good job IMO. Any slight bump or jar will slam the bolt home.

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 4:35 PM
Where can I get this? No conversion necessary? :eek:
Yes and no...

Conversion in terms of relocating the trigger, no, but for 922(r) compliance, you still need to change parts.
But if that buttstock is US-made, then you only need to switch to domestic magazines... just don't put an imported PG on it.


To strengthen your original stock until you decide/can affort to convert, I would imagine that some of the self-expanding insulating foam from Home Depot would do the trick to add a little weight and reinforce the sides... but I have not tried this, so I don't know if the pressure will push the sides out, or if the chemicals will damage the stock's material... Experiment at your own risk ;)

Shotgun Man
11-19-2009, 5:19 PM
I got a birch replacement made by IZHMASH. The price was dear-- $135. But it's a nice-looking stock. I like the cheek comb and it has a nice buttpad. Nice bulging, muscular lines. The new stock endeared me to my Saiga.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/greg_9/saiga-1.jpg

killshot44
11-19-2009, 7:08 PM
Thanks for clearing this up!!!

I found that skeleton stock : http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_38&products_id=495

Looks nice, but not 150$ nice

Krebs Customs sells a Saiga factory-made Skeleton Stock for a cool $69 bones. :willy_nilly:

(man, some folks get pretty sensitive around here)

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 7:52 PM
I got a birch replacement made by IZHMASH. The price was dear-- $135. But it's a nice-looking stock. I like the cheek comb and it has a nice buttpad. Nice bulging, muscular lines. The new stock endeared me to my Saiga.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/greg_9/saiga-1.jpg

that's a beauty!

the reason I'm on the fence about converting it is I live in the middle of a huge state park
there's a lot of private land I hunt here but I'm driving off road or on my horse through state park as often as I'm not
as long as my rifle's not loaded I'm cool, not sure I want to push my luck with the pistol grip and all the evil looking stuff coz the rangers do pull you over out here and check you out

SJgunguy24
11-19-2009, 7:59 PM
that's a beauty!

the reason I'm on the fence about converting it is I live in the middle of a huge state park
there's a lot of private land I hunt here but I'm driving off road or on my horse through state park as often as I'm not
as long as my rifle's not loaded I'm cool, not sure I want to push my luck with the pistol grip and all the evil looking stuff coz the rangers do pull you over out here and check you out

You don't need a pistol grip to put the trigger where it belongs. None of my Saigas have pistol grips.

Shotgun Man
11-19-2009, 8:18 PM
that's a beauty!

the reason I'm on the fence about converting it is I live in the middle of a huge state park
there's a lot of private land I hunt here but I'm driving off road or on my horse through state park as often as I'm not
as long as my rifle's not loaded I'm cool, not sure I want to push my luck with the pistol grip and all the evil looking stuff coz the rangers do pull you over out here and check you out

Thanks. I honestly believe it's one of the prettiest guns I own.

Bucky G
11-19-2009, 8:29 PM
You don't need a pistol grip to put the trigger where it belongs. None of my Saigas have pistol grips.

yes they do :p

LX Kid
04-07-2010, 6:50 AM
Thought I'd share a pic of mine! Here's the thread for those interested.
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63865&page=1&pp=35

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/LX_Kid/Guns/S6002109.jpg http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/LX_Kid/Guns/S6002110.jpg http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/LX_Kid/Guns/S6002111.jpg

rrr70
04-07-2010, 7:27 AM
I'm not sure if it was already mentioned, but (AFAIK) under 922r Saiga have 14 import parts. If you change one (like stock or forend) you have to change three more so not to have more than 10 imported parts.

http://jobson.us/922r/

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530

Sinestr
04-07-2010, 8:09 AM
I'm not sure if it was already mentioned, but (AFAIK) under 922r Saiga have 14 import parts. If you change one (like stock or forend) you have to change three more so not to have more than 10 imported parts.

http://jobson.us/922r/

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530

My understanding from other reading I've done, is that changing the forearm/handguard alone would not trigger 922r, so long as there was not a forward pistol grip on it. Changing the forearm alone makes it un-sporting :confused:

Cokebottle
04-07-2010, 7:25 PM
My understanding from other reading I've done, is that changing the forearm/handguard alone would not trigger 922r, so long as there was not a forward pistol grip on it. Changing the forearm alone makes it un-sporting :confused:
The standard pistol grip (and I believe, thumbhole stock) make it unsporting.

Now... something to keep in mind.
The Saiga has only 14 parts because it is not supplied with a pistol grip or muzzle brake.
ADDING a pistol grip not only triggers 922(r), but it also adds a counted part... if the pistol grip is imported (stock AK), it then had 15 counted parts.

The factory stock is imported, but because the stock Saiga is "sporting", 922(r) does not apply. You can change the buttstock and fore-end to standard AK parts and still have no issues unless you add a pistol grip.

Triggering 922(r) with a domestic pistol grip still requires the exchange of 4 more parts. Normally this would be the FCG (3 parts), and the gas piston. That allows for the use of imported magazines and furniture.

If 922(r) is triggered with a domestic thumbhole stock, then yes... only 3 additional parts need to be changed.
A domestic fore-end (if you like Tapco) is one. A new gas piston is 2.
Though there are differences between the OEM FCG and the standard AK FCG, I believe there is at least one part that is identical that can satisfy the requirement... or a domestic buttstock and stick with domestic magazines and you have your 4 parts.

Remember, it's not about domestic parts count... it's about imported parts count. Adding a domestic pistol grip does not help you... nor does adding a domestic muzzle brake.
Some people get into trouble with this on their conversions, thinking that they can run standard AK furniture with a US pistol grip and FCG... but the only counted parts in that conversion are the FCG, so it's still short by one part.

Cokebottle
04-07-2010, 7:27 PM
Thought I'd share a pic of mine! Here's the thread for those interested.
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63865&page=1&pp=35

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/LX_Kid/Guns/S6002109.jpg
Very nice.

I do hope that photo was taken outside of California. Without a magazine lock, that buttstock is illegal on a centerfire, semi-auto rifle.

gemini1
04-14-2010, 5:48 PM
The standard pistol grip (and I believe, thumbhole stock) make it unsporting.

Now... something to keep in mind.
The Saiga has only 14 parts because it is not supplied with a pistol grip or muzzle brake.
ADDING a pistol grip not only triggers 922(r), but it also adds a counted part... if the pistol grip is imported (stock AK), it then had 15 counted parts.

The factory stock is imported, but because the stock Saiga is "sporting", 922(r) does not apply. You can change the buttstock and fore-end to standard AK parts and still have no issues unless you add a pistol grip.
Triggering 922(r) with a domestic pistol grip still requires the exchange of 4 more parts. Normally this would be the FCG (3 parts), and the gas piston. That allows for the use of imported magazines and furniture.

If 922(r) is triggered with a domestic thumbhole stock, then yes... only 3 additional parts need to be changed.
A domestic fore-end (if you like Tapco) is one. A new gas piston is 2.
Though there are differences between the OEM FCG and the standard AK FCG, I believe there is at least one part that is identical that can satisfy the requirement... or a domestic buttstock and stick with domestic magazines and you have your 4 parts.

Remember, it's not about domestic parts count... it's about imported parts count. Adding a domestic pistol grip does not help you... nor does adding a domestic muzzle brake.
Some people get into trouble with this on their conversions, thinking that they can run standard AK furniture with a US pistol grip and FCG... but the only counted parts in that conversion are the FCG, so it's still short by one part.


Sorry I'm not (yet) an AK person. So let me make sure I read this right.
If I have a saiga and do not want to go with the conversion crowd, I can replace/install an original AK buttstock and fore-end (without the pistol grip) and I'm good to go? no 922r to worry about?

Cokebottle
04-14-2010, 7:14 PM
Sorry I'm not (yet) an AK person. So let me make sure I read this right.
If I have a saiga and do not want to go with the conversion crowd, I can replace/install an original AK buttstock and fore-end (without the pistol grip) and I'm good to go? no 922r to worry about?
Correct... but you can't run high-capacity magazines without triggering 922(r).

Generally, California's "evil features" trigger 922(r), however, not all evil features trigger it, and there are other non-evil features that trigger it.
I believe a bayo lug is an item that triggers it, and I don't believe a flash hider triggers it, but I'm not 100% certain.
922(r) is a hella confusing song and dance, so for anything other than basic modifications, I would personally make sure I was compliant.