PDA

View Full Version : Question about getting arrested for importation of Hi-Caps and Tracers?


wilit
11-18-2009, 8:00 PM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

NiteQwill
11-18-2009, 8:07 PM
Why does it matter if one pleads a felony to a misdemeanor... loss of gun rights may occur if one is not successful in pleading down. No bueno.

I'm guessing that charges on importing would be based on intent.

tgriffin
11-18-2009, 8:10 PM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

Man I REALLY hope this is hypothetical. If it isnt and the person is caught dead to rights, they are pretty fuxored.

sac550
11-18-2009, 8:16 PM
It is a wobbler and the first offense should result in a misdo plea offer, if not a misdo filing. If the DA won't offer a misdo, your attorney can request the Judge 17b the violation to a misdo. A misdo 12020 conviction doesn't prohibit you from possessing a firearm.

wilit
11-18-2009, 8:16 PM
Man I REALLY hope this is hypothetical. If it isnt and the person is caught dead to rights, they are pretty fuxored.

Don't know all the details, but for the intents of the intarweb, we'll say its hypothetical.

As far as intent, lets say, personal use.

sac550
11-18-2009, 8:20 PM
Also..If someone did get stopped and arrested for this they should be very concerned about police doing a follow-up search warrant at their house in the the days or weeks to follow. So if you had something you shouldn't, like a non-reg AW to go with those mags, you should get rid of it.

Shotgun Man
11-18-2009, 8:21 PM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

You are correct by acknowledging the offense is a wobber:


12020. Manufacture, importation, sale, possession; Exceptions

(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:



But as far as getting it reduced to a misdemeanor that is a highly geo-political determining factor.

In LA or SF, most judges cannot fathom why someone would have a gun or a magazine.

five.five-six
11-18-2009, 8:31 PM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

I would probably plead stupidity


it is perfactly legal to import magazine parts... even parts for those 1,000 round magazines

IIRC, it is also legal to bring back those mags you have had since 1999, even those that you have had for 3 years and 1 day for that matter

bwiese
11-18-2009, 8:33 PM
The tracers are likely the bigger worry.

Corbin Dallas
11-18-2009, 8:35 PM
Hypothetically speaking I would hope that someone has deep pockets and some friends in high places to help them out in a pinch.

Hypothetically speaking of course...

bwiese
11-18-2009, 8:38 PM
Wilit, whoever it is that you might know, he needs legal help bigtime.

He should call one of the Right People.

five.five-six
11-18-2009, 10:05 PM
I know tracers are a no-no, but what's the PC on those say?

wilit
11-18-2009, 10:39 PM
Wilit, whoever it is that you might know, he needs legal help bigtime.

He should call one of the Right People.

Already working on getting them in touch with one of "the right people". Just wondering what options might be available as far as charges on the high and low end.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 10:59 PM
I know tracers are a no-no, but what's the PC on those say?
PC says that he's seriously fuxored :(
12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons: (1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns. (2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.
I heavily snipped that since we're only discussing tracers and not other types of explosives.
12302 is a list of exemptions... military and LEO.
12303. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, possesses any destructive device, other than fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both such fine and imprisonment.
12303.1 covers transport on any vehicle that carries passengers for hire... I'm going to assume that this person would hypothetically use their own vehicle and not go Greyhound.
12303.2 covers malicious or reckless possession
12303.3 covers use with intent to injure, intimidate, or destroy property
12303.6. Any person, firm or corporation who, within this state, sells, offers for sale, or knowingly transports any destructive device, other than fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years.
So it looks like at least one felony charge, good for 2-4 years for transportation if he was caught on the road charged on 12303.6, and the basic 12303 doesn't state that it's a felony, but normally felonies are minimum 1 year and misdo's are max 1 year.

It's probably going to depend on the DA, the guy's background, quantities.... a lot of things as to whether 12303.6 would be charged or bargainable or not
If he's lucky, he'll get off on mere possession. If not, he's looking at transportation, and potentially second charge under 12303.6 of "sale" if quantities are sufficient to warrant suspicion along with the results of the search of the home (IE, he had 10k rounds when arrested, but a search of the home turned up only a few hundred, it might be presumed that he had already sold a batch)... but I would imagine that would be quickly plead down or dismissed on motion without a DOJ officer actually making a buy.

Dr Rockso
11-18-2009, 11:08 PM
There is really no way that they could convict on the mags unless he admitted to importing or assembling them. My guess is that if he's dumb enough to risk his freedom over some hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracer ammo, he was dumb enough to do just that.

adamsreeftank
11-18-2009, 11:46 PM
The tracers can have a separate charge for each round. That can add up quickly.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 11:52 PM
The tracers can have a separate charge for each round. That can add up quickly.
Ouch. Opportunity to plea down, but unlikely to clear all 20 of them if they charged him with transport.

The reason I keep bringing up transport is I can't see a case where the home was searched without other circumstances, and the OP specifically mentioned importation (unless they were purchased online).

pullnshoot25
11-18-2009, 11:54 PM
1) Possession of a hi-cap is not illegal.
2) It is none of a cops damn business where the magazine came from nor why you have it.
3) Don't talk to cops
4) Keep it real.

Don't mess with tracer ammo.

I'm tired, have a good night.

jdogg2000
11-19-2009, 9:37 AM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

Just curious, how did LE "catch" this person importing the magazines? Followed across the border after a gun show? Pretty difficult to prove importation except for a scenario like that.

Quser.619
11-19-2009, 11:34 AM
Just curious, how did LE "catch" this person importing the magazines? Followed across the border after a gun show? Pretty difficult to prove importation except for a scenario like that.

+1..?

Jicko
11-19-2009, 11:44 AM
There is really no way that they could convict on the mags unless he admitted to importing or assembling them. My guess is that if he's dumb enough to risk his freedom over some hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracer ammo, he was dumb enough to do just that.

Paying with a creditcard, and having it sent into the state "complete" is good enough proof for "importation".

Also, for 20 rounds of tracers... that is 20 individual "destructive device"
felonies.... (just the same as having 20 frag grenades...)

Dr Rockso
11-19-2009, 11:50 AM
Paying with a creditcard, and having it sent into the state "complete" is good enough proof for "importation".

Also, for 20 rounds of tracers... that is 20 individual "destructive device"
felonies.... (just the same as having 20 frag grenades...)

I imagine 20 frag grenades would be a hell of a lot more fun. Not enough fun to be worth time in a PMITA prison, though.

oaklander
11-19-2009, 11:54 AM
PM sent to Wilit with instructions for contact.

Wilit, whoever it is that you might know, he needs legal help bigtime.

He should call one of the Right People.

shooting4life
11-19-2009, 1:05 PM
Is the tracer charge for loaded rounds only or the projectile itself unloaded?

five.five-six
11-19-2009, 4:04 PM
PC says that he's seriously fuxored :(


UR not kidding :(

u said fuxored :rofl:

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 4:21 PM
u said fuxored :rofl:
I used to be l334, but the script kiddies haxored my box and fuxored me :D

Rob454
11-19-2009, 5:03 PM
I don't see why people are fascinated with tracers. They're fun for about 30 minutes then.........

shooting4life
11-19-2009, 5:18 PM
They are fun because you cannot have them

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 5:40 PM
They are fun because you cannot have them
+1

At the company that I worked for from 1996 to 2006, my boss specifically requested that I continue to smoke inside of the office.

He is an ex-smoker... gave up smoke and alcohol the same day... but it didn't bother or tempt him, so he asked me to not take it outside simply because he disagreed with the principle of nanny laws.

wilit
11-19-2009, 7:25 PM
Just curious, how did LE "catch" this person importing the magazines? Followed across the border after a gun show? Pretty difficult to prove importation except for a scenario like that.

Exactly. Again, don't know all the details, but it sounds like he was followed after making a purchase at a well known out of state gun show and followed transporting said items across the border.

sac550
11-19-2009, 7:37 PM
The tracers can have a separate charge for each round. That can add up quickly.

This is not true. Under 654 you can only be convicted and due time on one count. It just like if you are arrested for having 3 pieces of rock cocaine. You are not charged with 3 counts of 11350.

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 7:38 PM
Exactly. Again, don't know all the details, but it sounds like he was followed after making a purchase at a well known out of state gun show and followed transporting said items across the border.
DOJ has jurisdiction for surveillance outside of California? I'm asking, not questioning.

Leaving a gun show and returning to California is PC for a stop and search?
I'm questioning, not asking ;)

sac550
11-19-2009, 7:43 PM
DOJ has jurisdiction for surveillance outside of California? I'm asking, not questioning.

Leaving a gun show and returning to California is PC for a stop and search?
I'm questioning, not asking ;)

Yes it is and the minute you enter CA you can be stopped an arrested. Outside of CA they are just watching you. Doesn't matter if they have jurisdiciton or not because you weren't stopped in another state. If you get caught for this an you live near Sacramento I suggested you hire Chris Wing, Jonnny Griffin or Sean Northam as your defense attorney.

G17GUY
11-19-2009, 7:49 PM
Exactly. Again, don't know all the details, but it sounds like he was followed after making a purchase at a well known out of state gun show and followed transporting said items across the border.


Dang, Reno? This is going to be interesting. Hopefully everything works out ok.

Hopefully he took the mags apart.

G17GUY
11-19-2009, 7:52 PM
I suggested you hire Chris Wing, Jonnny Griffin or Sean Northam as your defense attorney.

Why?

How about the CGF?

sac550
11-19-2009, 8:25 PM
Why?

How about the CGF?

Because there is something to be said about local attorney's that know the court system, Judges and DA's. DA's that know and like a defense attorney are more likely to give a better deal to a defendant then to a defense attorney from out of the area. Sacramento, Placer and El Dorado are small town good old boy court houses. Chris Wing is the best attorney in Northern CA. Ask any DA, Judge or cop in the are who they would hire if arrested and they would say Chris Wing. Nobody better at an investigation and cross exam. Also he has many many friends at the local DA'S offices and police stations, so he gets a lot of backdoor info on cases and a deals from DA's most wouldn't. You will often see him eating lunch with Judges from the area. When you are in a trial court arguing motions in limine, or at a prelim asking a DA to 17b your case, it helps if the Court and DA like your attorney. An "A" hole attorney get no love in a court room, which hurts the client.

G17GUY
11-19-2009, 8:27 PM
Because there is something to be said about local attorney's that know the court system, Judges and DA's. DA's that know and like a defense attorney are more likely to give a better deal to a defendant then to a defense attorney from out of the area. Sacramento, Placer and El Dorado are small town good old boy court houses. Chris Wing is the best attorney in Northern CA. Ask any DA, Judge or cop in the are who they would hire if arrested and they would say Chris Wing. Nobody better at an investigation and cross exam. Also he has many many friends at the local DA'S offices and police stations, so he gets a lot of backdoor info on cases and a deals from DA's most wouldn't. You will often see him eating lunch with Judges from the area. When you are in a trial court arguing motions in limine, or at a prelim asking a DA to 17b your case, it helps if the Court and DA like your attorney. An "A" hole attorney get no love in a court room, which hurts the client.


Oh i c :)

series8217
11-19-2009, 8:29 PM
Why?

How about the CGF?

CGF is for defending people who were doing something legal and get in trouble wrongfully.

G17GUY
11-19-2009, 8:39 PM
CGF is for defending people who were doing something legal and get in trouble wrongfully.

You don't think that they should help out good folks who don't know the law in its entire convolution?

I think the reno gun show fiasco is crap.

BigDogatPlay
11-19-2009, 9:03 PM
Hmmmmm... seems to me there was a thread opened the other day by someone who said they saw someone taking a stop just west of the stateline coming back from the show in Reno.

So, hypothetically, if the CaDOJ agents working the Reno show... and yes, they do with the help and support of BATFE and Nevada officials, observe standard caps transfer, and they observe the transferee and the standard caps get into a car with California plates and maintain surveillance until the car crosses the state line going west, they have probable cause to believe a felony is being committed... and hence they would have PC to stop and search on the spot.

Whomever becomes unfortunate enough to become the reality out of that hypothetical is going to be well and truly screwed. One could hope that a good lawyer and a reasonable ADA would work it down to a misdemeanor or two, but I have to believe that CaDOJ will be insistent that the rip be for felonies.

The lesson here, hypothetical or not, is to not even think of ever going to the Reno show and buying stuff you aren't supposed to bring back into California. It's just not worth it.

B Strong
11-20-2009, 5:10 AM
So if one were to get arrested for importing some fully assembled AR hi-caps and 20 rounds of tracers, how hosed would that person be? What would be the chances of pleading down from a felony to a misdemeanor?

Depending on the jurisdiction, the individual may face anything from dismissal to prison time, depending.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but there's only one high-cap prosecution that I know abot, and that involved drugs and an AW as well, and the one time that I know of where a cop found tracers on a guy (non-criminal situation all the way) the officer told him to "get rid of them" -the guy asked if he could get rid of them "one at a time?" and the cop laughed and told him "not around here..."

If the situaqtion you're asking about involves any other type of suspected criminal activity, the guy could very well get dragged into court and put through the ringer.

A box of tracers and some high-caps definetely aren't worth the agita.

series8217
11-20-2009, 9:05 PM
You don't think that they should help out good folks who don't know the law in its entire convolution?


I don't think CGF should defend criminals, whether they are criminals by ignorance or bad intentions. I think CGF should assist in cases where the outcome can help law-abiding gun owners in California.

Ding126
11-21-2009, 8:17 AM
Too bad if this is a true situation..which I believe it is. A smarter person could of thought of disassemble or even UPS or USPS. I mean if your gonna break the law you should be a bit smarter about it

I agree..I don't think this is a case where CGF would get involved. I don't think they do cases on darwinism

Mitch
11-21-2009, 9:24 AM
You don't think that they should help out good folks who don't know the law in its entire convolution?

Hmm, dude goes out of state just to buy some stuff he can't find for sale in California? Sounds to me like he knew exactly what he was doing.

bwiese
11-21-2009, 11:19 AM
DOJ has jurisdiction for surveillance outside of California? I'm asking, not questioning.

All sortsa "joint operations" can exist.

Many LAPD Gun Unit guys are sworn as US Marshals too so they can range out of LA area.

yellowfin
11-21-2009, 11:31 AM
All sortsa "joint operations" can exist.

Many LAPD Gun Unit guys are sworn as US Marshals too so they can range out of LA area.Don't you have those guys shut down yet?

SteveH
11-21-2009, 2:48 PM
The magazine importation aspect must be the most violated aspect of Cali AW laws. I cant go to a Cali 3-gun match with out seeing a 22 year old kid with a 45 round PMAG. Yep, sure its a spring for a 30 rounder you owned when you were 10 years old, right.

G17GUY
11-21-2009, 3:45 PM
Hmm, dude goes out of state just to buy some stuff he can't find for sale in California? Sounds to me like he knew exactly what he was doing.

You're probably right.

ZUMNDAD
11-21-2009, 8:12 PM
Hence the fact I will NOT be going to the Vegas show. You KNOW they will be looking for Cali plates and monitoring what you haul out of the show.

bigcalidave
11-21-2009, 9:26 PM
Almost certainly doing something other than bringing mags and tracer rounds in. OR they were only going after the tracers. With the screwed up status of high caps and rebuild kits in this state they could have a hell of a time going that route. Tracers are NOT defensible. The guy would have no legal reason to buy tracer rounds and drive right into CA. Maybe the tracers are sold there as bait? trying to catch someone? one station over the border, and someone at the gun show recording CA plates and watching the people that buy the tracer rounds?
Obviously, you drive to reno, have a friend rent a car, go to the gun show, stay in a hotel, ditch the car and wear a disguise as you walk to your parked car. Then they don't know who you are. I drive to reno ALL THE TIME and I've never had to do more than nod at the guys in the border stops.

edit, I don't drive there to go to gun shows. The internet is cheaper. I drove there for work.

oaklander
11-21-2009, 9:29 PM
I guess I won't be getting that grenade launcher I've always wanted. Yet.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/MK19-02.jpg

Hence the fact I will NOT be going to the Vegas show. You KNOW they will be looking for Cali plates and monitoring what you haul out of the show.

bigcalidave
11-21-2009, 9:33 PM
You need that for home defense in your city, huh oak?