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OHOD
11-18-2009, 6:01 PM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Hunter
11-18-2009, 6:04 PM
Why do you think this is illegal?

Tweak338
11-18-2009, 6:07 PM
Not illegal, they were probably Pre-2000 magazines.
Lots of people have Pre-ban High caps.

Shotgun Man
11-18-2009, 6:08 PM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?


Maybe you're trolling, but possession of the large capacity mags is not regulated.

OHOD
11-18-2009, 6:08 PM
Why do you think this is illegal?

I thought magazines with greater than 10-rounds were illegal in California. How did I go wrong?

thy95
11-18-2009, 6:08 PM
U could have high cap mag if u own them before 2000.

OHOD
11-18-2009, 6:09 PM
Maybe you're trolling, but possession of the large capacity mags is not regulated.

Not trolling, just legitimately want to know since I'm a noob around here.

We Are Apocalypse
11-18-2009, 6:10 PM
Unless it was an M1A with evil features and a magazine lock he has done nothing wrong if he owned those magazines before 2000.

Ding126
11-18-2009, 6:10 PM
I laugh when people come up to me when I'm using my 20 & 30 rnd mags in my Hk91...They either show concern and just want to FYI or they think they know everything and think I'm the dumb one...

I just keep to myself and go on with my session...( can you say RAW )

OHOD
11-18-2009, 6:11 PM
Unless it was an M1A with evil features and a magazine lock he has done nothing wrong if he owned those magazines before 2000.

Standard M1A with a Harris bipod, that's it.

The Director
11-18-2009, 6:12 PM
Possession of hi capacity magazines is not illegal.

dilligaffrn
11-18-2009, 6:12 PM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5

9. If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

OHOD
11-18-2009, 6:22 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5

9. If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

Thanks, now I can piece together the rest of the story.

bodger
11-18-2009, 6:44 PM
I know this has been covered on this forum a lot.

BUT:

I have an S&W model 659 purchased in 1987 with two mags that hold more than ten rounds.

If I were to purchase another Smith and Wesson now that would accept those mags, and in fact I use those mags in that gun, I am not a criminal?

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 6:48 PM
nope, as long as your new one has no evil features, you owned the mags before 2000... legal. Im curious about an LEO buying a hi-cap and then selling it now? I'm pretty sure that is illegal correct?

bohoki
11-18-2009, 6:53 PM
when it comes to law if you don't know, don't guess

and even if you think you know keep your mouth shut

Turo
11-18-2009, 6:53 PM
nope, as long as your new one has no evil features, you owned the mags before 2000... legal. Im curious about an LEO buying a hi-cap and then selling it now? I'm pretty sure that is illegal correct?

Only if it is sold to someone that is not LE. They could also be someone with a hi-cap mag permit. The mags could also be sold as parts kits to anyone.

when it comes to law if you don't know, don't guess

and even if you think you know keep your mouth shut

+1

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 6:54 PM
when it comes to law if you don't know, don't guess

and even if you think you know keep your mouth shut


care to elaborate?

bodger
11-18-2009, 6:54 PM
nope, as long as your new one has no evil features, you owned the mags before 2000... legal. Im curious about an LEO buying a hi-cap and then selling it now? I'm pretty sure that is illegal correct?


Thanks. That's what I thought. But you know what? I also have two ten round mags that work in that S&W and those are the ones I take to the range.

I don't trust LEOs to know wtf the laws are in this state.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 6:56 PM
Was he actually firing 20 rounds? Are you sure they weren't 10/20s?

A 10/100 drum mag is legal.

QuarterBoreGunner
11-18-2009, 6:56 PM
*sigh*

So much fear over standard capacity magazines. Relax people...

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 6:57 PM
*sigh*

So much fear over standard capacity magazines. Relax people...

All it takes is for someone to get it wrong once and their "relaxing" in a federal prison... so there is every reason to fear and ask questions.

OHOD
11-18-2009, 7:00 PM
All it takes is for someone to get it wrong once and their "relaxing" in a federal prison... so there is every reason to fear and ask questions.

Thank you very much.

QuarterBoreGunner
11-18-2009, 7:01 PM
All it takes is for someone to get it wrong once and their "relaxing" in a federal prison... so there is every reason to fear and ask questions.Any evidence to back this up; any one ever been prosecuted? And why would it be federal prison? They're no federal restrictions on magazines.


This is a tired subject. It may be trite, but use the freaking search function. Seriously people, this has been covered soooooooo many times it's absurd.

bodger
11-18-2009, 7:02 PM
Thank you very much.

Another poster asked if they were 10/20.
Nope, legitimate 20 round magazines with 20 rounds shooting from his rifle. I know for a fact he got them after 2000.

He is my friend and I don't want him to get in trouble.

Thanks,
Joanne

OOPS. Too late. :D

*sigh*

So much fear over standard capacity magazines. Relax people...


Yeah, I do enjoy the relaxed atmosphere here in CA when it comes to firearms. :D

bubbagump
11-18-2009, 7:06 PM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Ignore the people who are making you feel bad about this.

Now you know Hi-Caps are not illegal :)

jkasandiego
11-18-2009, 7:08 PM
I thought magazines with greater than 10-rounds were illegal in California. How did I go wrong?

You need to mind your own business;)

OHOD
11-18-2009, 7:10 PM
Ignore the people who are making you feel bad about this.

Now you know Hi-Caps are not illegal :)

Thank you.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 7:10 PM
You just implicated him in a felony on a forum watched by DOJ/BATF where your IP address (and now your first name) are available.

I'm not quoting your message in the event you might want to edit it.

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 7:11 PM
Someone wanna post the picture of obama with the "big brother is watching you" text??

ZRX61
11-18-2009, 7:15 PM
The only time I questioned it is when I saw someone with an AR with those 100rd(?) mags that have a drum on each side of the gun... & for it to be legal he must have bought the mags when he was about 6 or 7yo...

QuarterBoreGunner
11-18-2009, 7:19 PM
^unless it was modified to only 10 rounds.

Sniper3142
11-18-2009, 7:22 PM
What should I have done?

Minding your own business unless you KNOW the law is a good start.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Yes... you were wrong. Possession and use of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds is LEGAL.

If your friend aquired them legally, he can use them when and where he wants.

If he didn't aquire them legally... I suspect it won't end well. :(

ZRX61
11-18-2009, 7:22 PM
^unless it was modified to only 10 rounds.

Drums were transparent, they were full....

Ducman
11-18-2009, 7:25 PM
This >>>> MYOB

The Director
11-18-2009, 7:28 PM
You just implicated him in a felony on a forum watched by DOJ/BATF where your IP address (and now your first name) are available.

I'm not quoting your message in the event you might want to edit it.

:TFH:

bohoki
11-18-2009, 7:52 PM
care to elaborate?

i guess if you intent is to truly look out for you fellow man you could just ask him if that is legal

but just a piece of advice no good deed goes unpunished

its a part of murphy's law

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 7:59 PM
All it takes is for someone to get it wrong once and their "relaxing" in a federal prison... so there is every reason to fear and ask questions.

And just what would the Fed's care about a California State law? :TFH:

oaklander
11-18-2009, 8:16 PM
AFAIK, there have been no successful prosecutions for "high-cap" mag possession. The reason is obvious, since mere possession is not a crime, and the DA would have to PROVE that you DID NOT have the magazines from before the ban.

Also - it's a state crime, not a federal crime.

All it takes is for someone to get it wrong once and their "relaxing" in a federal prison... so there is every reason to fear and ask questions.

Turo
11-18-2009, 8:19 PM
The only time I questioned it is when I saw someone with an AR with those 100rd(?) mags that have a drum on each side of the gun... & for it to be legal he must have bought the mags when he was about 6 or 7yo...

I had hi-cap mags when I was 7 years old, not long before the ban came into effect. Another explanation can arise from the idea that it is not illegal to change the capacity of hi-cap magazines. For example, there's no law prohibiting me from replacing all the parts of a pre-ban 20 round magazine with parts from a 30 round magazine.
I'm not saying that it's fairly easy for him to acquire +10 round magazines after 2000, I'm just saying that there are legal avenues that he may have taken.

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 8:21 PM
And just what would the Fed's care about a California State law? :TFH:


yes yes i mistyped, but the point is offender will be behind cold steel bars... (please dont get mad if i got the metal type of the bars wrong too!!) and then once behind bars, big bubba will be behind you..... federal or county... you are F'd

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 8:25 PM
I'm not saying that it's fairly easy for him to acquire +10 round magazines after 2000, I'm just saying that there are legal avenues that he may have taken.
Legal avenues?

How so?

You can convert a pre-ban 20 into a 30, rebuild high-caps, and even import parts kits, but you can never have in your possession more assembled high-caps than you had at the beginning of the ban.

No, mere possession is not a crime, but importation or manufacture is.
If I were to purchase a parts kit legally, I would be fine, but if I were to assemble them, I would be guilty of the crime of manufacturing. The crime isn't in having them, it's in obtaining them.

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 8:27 PM
I havent dealt alot with mil-surp mags or anything like that. Are there markings or labels that can be used to determine when and where they were made? Whats to keep someone from buying mag kits that are mil-surp from the 80's and just claiming to have had them the whole time?

Shotgun Man
11-18-2009, 8:27 PM
yes yes i mistyped, but the point is offender will be behind cold steel bars... (please dont get mad if i got the metal type of the bars wrong too!!) and then once behind bars, big bubba will be behind you..... federal or county... you are F'd


"Mistyped"?

Mistyping means that your fingers mistakenly switched some letters, much like misspelling.

You didn't mistype so much as you misstated.

In any event, it's a minor point.

Turo
11-18-2009, 8:33 PM
Legal avenues?

How so?


That sentence wasn't worded the best. I meant that legal avenues existed for the guy to have 100 round drum magazines, by way of the method I mentioned earlier in my post. Sorry for the confusion.

Another interesting tidbit though, is if you order say, 10 round magazines from an out of state store, and you open the box and inside are 2 30 rounders, you did nothing illegal, and are now in possession of hi-capacity magazines. The store made the mistake, and could possibly get in trouble, but only if you told ;).

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 8:35 PM
yes yes i mistyped, but the point is offender will be behind cold steel bars... (please dont get mad if i got the metal type of the bars wrong too!!) and then once behind bars, big bubba will be behind you..... federal or county... you are F'd

Show us a case where the only thing was possession of normal magazines without other charges. Possession in and of its self is not a crime. :TFH:

bwiese
11-18-2009, 8:35 PM
Another interesting tidbit though, is if you order say, 10 round magazines from an out of state store, and you open the box and inside are 2 30 rounders, you did nothing illegal, and are now in possession of hi-capacity magazines. The store made the mistake, and could possibly get in trouble, but only if you told

If you made efforts to return them, yes you have a defense.

If you kept them, you'd be a violator.

Stop spreading crap.

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 8:36 PM
I havent dealt alot with mil-surp mags or anything like that. Are there markings or labels that can be used to determine when and where they were made? Whats to keep someone from buying mag kits that are mil-surp from the 80's and just claiming to have had them the whole time?


Stop giving advice about things you don't know, Simple! :rolleyes:

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 8:38 PM
Show us a case where the only thing was possession of normal magazines without other charges. Possession in and of its self is not a crime. :TFH:

I am confused at what your asking, my post that you quoted was because I had MISSTATED something. I have no contention that possesion of hi cap mags is legal.

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 8:39 PM
Stop giving advice about things you don't know, Simple! :rolleyes:

Dude again, the thing you just quoted is a question... of course I dont know that is why I am asking here.

oaklander
11-18-2009, 8:41 PM
Since it is legal to rebuild OLD magazines with NEW parts, there is no problem in possessing NEW high-caps.

The problem is if you assembled a magazine, but weren't actually rebuilding an old high-cap.

I havent dealt alot with mil-surp mags or anything like that. Are there markings or labels that can be used to determine when and where they were made? Whats to keep someone from buying mag kits that are mil-surp from the 80's and just claiming to have had them the whole time?

Turo
11-18-2009, 8:41 PM
If you made efforts to return them, yes you have a defense.

If you kept them, you'd be a violator.

Stop spreading crap.

How so? I'm just talking about what's been hashed out on the forums here that I've read. If I'm wrong, please show me the PC where it says that keeping the magazines is illegal.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, just trying to learn :)

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 8:44 PM
Dude again, the thing you just quoted is a question... of course I dont know that is why I am asking here.

No, you stated that the person caught with normal capacity magazines would end up in jail with Bubba. Prove it. Show us the case history of all these cases. :TFH:

Seesm
11-18-2009, 8:45 PM
Wow and so it goes around again...

Easy stuff, if you had them prior to 1-1-2000 your golden (Possesion is NOT ILLEGAL)

If they are on a "feature" rifle build you can not run over 10 rds on it and you need a mag lock that needs a tool (bullet button).

On a "NON-Feature" build its ok to run your legally owned pre ban std sized 20-30 rd mags... Note these rifles were NOT meant to run low cap mags like the state of California mandates.

Now you can buy NEW mags (apart to re-build beat up old mags) I have done this... Just can not end up with say 20 mags if you only owned 10... match the #'s and your again GOLDEN.

Ahhhh.... Ok bed soon for me. :)

HkFan416
11-18-2009, 8:48 PM
Not trolling, just legitimately want to know since I'm a noob around here.

Man...your admitting your a noob and your going to confront someone? Thats retarded...that reminds me of the guy who told me that my saiga 12 was a destructive device...

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 8:48 PM
No, you stated that the person caught with normal capacity magazines would end up in jail with Bubba. Prove it. Show us the case history of all these cases. :TFH:

Ok (note i'm not mad so dont read this in an angry tone) I am just explaining how you may have gotten confused into thinking I said that. Go back to page three, someone made a post about "Everyone just relax and stop freaking out about hi-cap mags" to which I stated (in defense of the OP) its ok to "freak out" and ask questions, because if you dont ask questions and get the right info, you could end up in prison with bubba, that is where I said federal and meant county or state blah blah, so idk if you read that far back or didnt see my whole string of posts, but I never said that possesion would cause arrest. I know better than that.

HkFan416
11-18-2009, 8:50 PM
And lol at these threads since there's about 10 discussions a week about this topic.

Peter W Bush
11-18-2009, 8:54 PM
Did his father give it to him before the ban? I know people who were 12 when their father gave them a few extra hi caps just so theyd be legally allowed to use them.

JustGone
11-18-2009, 8:58 PM
Wow some people are really unnecessarily rude to this guy, instead of answering his question in a polite respectable manner they jump on him like insecure little bullies.

Sorry but I had to say something and I notice it happen quite often in other threads as well

Please guys educate a guy don't try to beat him down so you can feel better about yourselves because your so smart and know everything, therefore he should know everything and do exactly as you would do.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 9:00 PM
Another interesting tidbit though, is if you order say, 10 round magazines from an out of state store, and you open the box and inside are 2 30 rounders, you did nothing illegal, and are now in possession of hi-capacity magazines. The store made the mistake, and could possibly get in trouble, but only if you told ;).
You would still be guilty of importation and would need to immediately disassemble the magazines.

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 9:05 PM
Ok (note i'm not mad so dont read this in an angry tone) I am just explaining how you may have gotten confused into thinking I said that. Go back to page three, someone made a post about "Everyone just relax and stop freaking out about hi-cap mags" to which I stated (in defense of the OP) its ok to "freak out" and ask questions, because if you dont ask questions and get the right info, you could end up in prison with bubba, that is where I said federal and meant county or state blah blah, so idk if you read that far back or didnt see my whole string of posts, but I never said that possesion would cause arrest. I know better than that.

1st things first while logged in go to 'User CP' in the blue bar at the page top.

Then go to 'edit options' and scroll down to 'Thread Display Options' and change 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' to show 40 posts per page. After you do that you'll find you're now on page number 2.

Also there is no good reason to 'Freak Out' just relax and ask your questions.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 9:08 PM
I havent dealt alot with mil-surp mags or anything like that. Are there markings or labels that can be used to determine when and where they were made? Whats to keep someone from buying mag kits that are mil-surp from the 80's and just claiming to have had them the whole time?
Some mags are identified by date, and others (such as Glock) can be fairly reliably dated by construction design, however, it is not illegal to REmanufacture your existing mags. Followers wear, feed lips weaken and wear, springs weaken.
You can use rebuild kits to replace parts in your original mags, up to and including 100% of the parts. There is also no legal requirement to keep the parts that you removed (though it would not be unwise to do so). The only stipulation is that you are currently in possession of no more magazines than you were in possession of on the last day before the ban went into effect.

You could effectively order rebuild kits, assemble them, and purger yourself by claiming that you owned "the same number" of mags prior to the ban.
Expect to be caught in that lie through either further questioning (why did you have the mags but you never registered an AW?), or if they decide to question friends and family.

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 9:15 PM
1st things first while logged in go to 'User CP' in the blue bar at the page top.

Then go to 'edit options' and scroll down to 'Thread Display Options' and change 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' to show 40 posts per page. After you do that you'll find you're now on page number 2.

Also there is no good reason to 'Freak Out' just relax and ask your questions.


Good talk!

Thanks cokebottle, that clears everything else up.

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 9:22 PM
Some mags are identified by date, and others (such as Glock) can be fairly reliably dated by construction design, however, it is not illegal to REmanufacture your existing mags. Followers wear, feed lips weaken and wear, springs weaken.
You can use rebuild kits to replace parts in your original mags, up to and including 100% of the parts. There is also no legal requirement to keep the parts that you removed (though it would not be unwise to do so). The only stipulation is that you are currently in possession of no more magazines than you were in possession of on the last day before the ban went into effect.

You could effectively order rebuild kits, assemble them, and purger yourself by claiming that you owned "the same number" of mags prior to the ban.
Expect to be caught in that lie through either further questioning (why did you have the mags but you never registered an AW?), or if they decide to question friends and family.


I bought lots of mags for firearms I didn't own at the time but knew I might some time in the future. Plus during the Fed ban years you could make some pretty good money selling mags outside of California. Mags that cost $10.00 in the early '90's were selling for over $100.00 ten years latter. ;)

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 9:31 PM
I bought lots of mags for firearms I didn't own at the time but knew I might some time in the future. Plus during the Fed ban years you could make some pretty good money selling mags outside of California. Mags that cost $10.00 in the early '90's were selling for over $100.00 ten years latter. ;)
Not saying there wouldn't be a legitimate reason... but any hesitancy in the answer during interrogation would be read as "I'm lying"

Sgt Raven
11-18-2009, 9:38 PM
Not saying there wouldn't be a legitimate reason... but any hesitancy in the answer during interrogation would be read as "I'm lying"

If you're being interrogated then your best bet is to shut your mouth and let your lawyer do your talking. If Martha and Scooter had done that they wouldn't have gone to prison. ;)

Ducman
11-18-2009, 9:50 PM
Wow some people are really unnecessarily rude to this guy, instead of answering his question in a polite respectable manner they jump on him like insecure little bullies.

Sorry but I had to say something and I notice it happen quite often in other threads as well

Please guys educate a guy don't try to beat him down so you can feel better about yourselves because your so smart and know everything, therefore he should know everything and do exactly as you would do.

Tell that to the OP, He admitted that he is a complete NOOB, But went ahead and came up to someone telling him what he is doing is illegal.....:rolleyes:

Carnivore
11-18-2009, 9:51 PM
If you're being interrogated then your best bet is to shut your mouth and let your lawyer do your talking. If Martha and Scooter had done that they wouldn't have gone to prison. ;)

LOL just what I was thinking +10 million.

bden
11-18-2009, 10:02 PM
Another interesting tidbit though, is if you order say, 10 round magazines from an out of state store, and you open the box and inside are 2 30 rounders, you did nothing illegal, and are now in possession of hi-capacity magazines. The store made the mistake, and could possibly get in trouble, but only if you told ;).

If you made efforts to return them, yes you have a defense.

If you kept them, you'd be a violator.

Bill, I've read many of the threads on this topic, but don't remember reading anything about someone being required to make a good faith effort to return a "found" 11+ round mag. It makes sense that making such an effort would only bolster one's defense, but many past posts have more or less hinted rather strongly that simply "finding" an 11+ rounder is a case closed defense assuming the fuzz doesn't have any additional evidence to the contrary. Where'd those posters go afoul of the law (aside from obviously being shady and not recommended)?

Due to some of the heat in this post I'll throw in a :) just so everyone know's I'm a :D and not a :cuss:. :43:

Mstrty
11-18-2009, 10:06 PM
Wow some people are really unnecessarily rude to this guy, instead of answering his question in a polite respectable manner they jump on him like insecure little bullies.

Sorry but I had to say something and I notice it happen quite often in other threads as well

Please guys educate a guy don't try to beat him down so you can feel better about yourselves because your so smart and know everything, therefore he should know everything and do exactly as you would do.

I have to agree but I feel for CG members as well. This topic has been beaten to death a 1000 times before. A quick search could of answered not just most but ALL of the OP's questions. Some on here have the knowledge to answer the OP's questions but are so tired of this topic their tone is harsh. Others are only 90% correct in their response to the OP and we then spend 10 pages correcting the 10% of FUD. Ill sit back and read how this winds down or I'll go back and read some of the other 100 threads on the same subject. <sigh> now I'm the cynical one. .... Im going to bed.

bwiese
11-18-2009, 10:13 PM
If you're being interrogated then your best bet is to shut your mouth and let your lawyer do your talking. If Martha and Scooter had done that they wouldn't have gone to prison. ;)

If anyone is asking you provenance/timing of your hicap mag ownership and he's not in uniform, throw him against the wall, and frisk him for a wire.

Any formal conversation with LE on this should elicit, "Talk to my lawyer. 12020PC does not prohibit possession."

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 10:13 PM
And lol at these threads since there's about 10 discussions a week about this topic.
That's because the CalgunsDOJ has a 10 magazine thread limit :p

OHOD
11-18-2009, 10:13 PM
Tell that to the OP, He admitted that he is a complete NOOB, But went ahead and came up to someone telling him what he is doing is illegal.....:rolleyes:

Don't worry Ducman, you are guaranteed to be 100% more man than me.
It's okay honey, carry on. :rolleyes:

bwiese
11-18-2009, 10:14 PM
Bill, I've read many of the threads on this topic, but don't remember reading anything about someone being required to make a good faith effort to return a "found" 11+ round mag. It makes sense that making such an effort would only bolster one's defense, but many past posts have more or less hinted rather strongly that simply "finding" an 11+ rounder is a case closed defense assuming the fuzz doesn't have any additional evidence to the contrary. Where'd those posters go afoul of the law (aside from obviously being shady and not recommended)?

Due to some of the heat in this post I'll throw in a :) just so everyone know's I'm a :D and not a :cuss:. :43:

The whole BS of "finding" a hicap magazine, or that half the transaction (acquistion) of getting a hicap is legal, but the giving is illegal, is just stupid. I get tired of hearing it.

bden
11-18-2009, 10:17 PM
The whole BS of "finding" a hicap magazine, or that half the transaction (acquistion) of getting a hicap is legal, but the giving is illegal, is just stupid. I get tired of hearing it.

Thank you, I'll have to take another look at how it really works based on the lawman because I'd fallen for that apparent FUD.

chickenfried
11-18-2009, 10:37 PM
:rockon:
standard capacity magazines.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-18-2009, 10:49 PM
If you're being interrogated then your best bet is to shut your mouth and let your lawyer do your talking. If Martha and Scooter had done that they wouldn't have gone to prison. ;)

Another good trick when being interrogated about your large capacity magazines is to tell the police, "I bought all of these hi-cap mags in Reno and smuggled them into California back in 2005." Then sit back and see what they do. :p

technique
11-18-2009, 11:10 PM
Damn there is some straight ridiculous FUD in this thread...
This is what the CGN Wiki exists for people...use it!
Or for the love of Jebus just read the damn PC before you continuously
post bad info...

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 11:14 PM
Damn there is some straight ridiculous FUD in this thread...
This is what the CGN Wiki exists for people...use it!
Or for the love of Jebus just read the damn PC before you continuously
post bad info...
+1

Just because the probability of prosecution is very low doesn't mean it's not a crime if they came into your possession after the ban.

bden
11-18-2009, 11:41 PM
Good stuff in here...http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions Search "Calguns Wiki" on Yahoo, Google, or whatever to get there. It doesn't answer every conceivable scenario, but Tech's right, Wiki's great...use it.

I'm still a bit stumped on the "but I just found it" defense, and am confused by possible FUD in other threads on the same topic relating to statute of limitations for when the possible crime (importation/manufacture) is committed vs. discovered, but I'll try to stay content not knowing every possible angle relating to this stuff.

Turo
11-19-2009, 12:24 AM
The reason the "finding" idea exists is because it isn't specifically prohibited by the law.
CA Penal code reads:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Finding or receiving are not prohibited by the law, and therefore are not illegal.

Wallabing
11-19-2009, 4:41 AM
You keep to yourself. By trying to point him as a criminal, you become no better than the anti's yourself.

tenpercentfirearms
11-19-2009, 5:27 AM
The reason the "finding" idea exists is because it isn't specifically prohibited by the law.
CA Penal code reads:

Finding or receiving are not prohibited by the law, and therefore are not illegal.

Neither is crapping them out of your suitcase either. That is going to be my defense. I passed them. Here smell.

Seriously, trying to claim you found them sounds about like the most ridiculous thing you could ever say to someone investigating you for a crime. You would be much better off saying nothing.

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 6:09 AM
Neither is crapping them out of your suitcase either. That is going to be my defense. I passed them. Here smell.

Seriously, trying to claim you found them sounds about like the most ridiculous thing you could ever say to someone investigating you for a crime. You would be much better off saying nothing.
+10,000

Probability of finding any lost mags still in operable condition = small
Probability that they will be high-cap = smaller
Probability that said found mags will just happen to fit your gun = zilch

Sgt Raven
11-19-2009, 6:11 AM
Neither is crapping them out of your suitcase either. That is going to be my defense. I passed them. Here smell.

Seriously, trying to claim you found them sounds about like the most ridiculous thing you could ever say to someone investigating you for a crime. You would be much better off saying nothing.

More people talk themselves into jail than out of it. :rolleyes:

Turo
11-19-2009, 9:32 AM
Neither is crapping them out of your suitcase either. That is going to be my defense. I passed them. Here smell.

Seriously, trying to claim you found them sounds about like the most ridiculous thing you could ever say to someone investigating you for a crime. You would be much better off saying nothing.

I'm not advocating anyone claim their illegally-obtained +10 capacity magazines were found, I'm saying that in the (albeit slim) chance that while walking around someone who actually does find and keep a +10 capacity magazine after 1/1/2000, wouldn't be breaking any laws as spelled out in the penal code.

What I'm trying to say is that the idea that new +10 capacity magazines are completely unobtainable after 1/1/2000 is not entirely true. Nobody has to prove their innocence, and no crime is being committed by using said +10 capacity magazines.

Yes, the probability of somebody finding a +10 capacity magazine in CA after 1/1/2000 is slim, but it isn't impossible.

supersonic
11-19-2009, 9:42 AM
Except for safety issues..........mind your own friggin' business at the range!:rolleyes:

Sniper3142
11-19-2009, 9:46 AM
I actually remember a location where there was a VERY HIGH probability of finding several 30 rounders. I'd say the odds were around 75 - 85% at least.

Anyone who's been out to Camp Wilson at 29 Palms should remember the live fire areas along the mountains to the east. I remember the area being littered with everything you could imagine. Just watch out for the Unexploded ammo all over the place!

Of course, that was many years ago so who knows what someone would find there now. :(

Caseless
11-19-2009, 10:37 AM
Seeing a Beta-C mag in action during a 3 gun match makes my day.:thumbsup:

boxbro
11-19-2009, 11:22 AM
I laugh when people come up to me when I'm using my 20 & 30 rnd mags in my Hk91...They either show concern and just want to FYI or they think they know everything and think I'm the dumb one...

I just keep to myself and go on with my session...( can you say RAW )

So you have a featureless HK91 and no bullet button ?

QuarterBoreGunner
11-19-2009, 11:24 AM
That's the RAW part

Registered Assault Weapon

Being an old fart (myself included) has it's privileges.

bwiese
11-19-2009, 11:25 AM
That's the RAW part

Registered Assault Weapon

Being an old fart (myself included) has it's privileges.

Nine times over, bro :)

QuarterBoreGunner
11-19-2009, 11:26 AM
You're ahead of me by two.

You win the internet.

casting kid
11-19-2009, 11:51 AM
"What should I have done? "

Minding your own business unless you KNOW the law is a good start............

M1A Rifleman
11-19-2009, 11:57 AM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Waw waw waw, sad face.

YOUR WRONG. Stop spreading FUD. :mad:

oaklander
11-19-2009, 12:05 PM
OK - HERE'S THE GENERAL RULE FOR EDUCATING SOMEONE ABOUT THE LAW AT A GUN RANGE:

1) If you are absolutely CERTAIN that you know what you are talking about, it may be beneficial to POLITELY bring up issues relating to the legality of a given weapon. There is NO advantage to the gun rights movement by allowing people to do illegal things. We need to keep teaching each other the law.

2) If you do not know what you are talking about, please DO NOT spread FUD. "STFU" is the general term-of-art.

Here's an example. I was shooting my OLL AK and struck up a conversation with someone who had a rifle that was clearly configured illegally. I very POLITELY mentioned it to him. He was grateful for the information. I made sure to ask if it was a RAW before I spouted off, and I made sure that I was polite and helpful. He was grateful for the information.

What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

lazuris
11-19-2009, 12:07 PM
Why don't you keep your mouth shut and focus on your own stuff and leave others alone.

oaklander
11-19-2009, 12:09 PM
I agree with this generally, but there is some benefit in educating other gun owners, if you are certain that you know what you are talking about.

The problem here was (1) the OP was wrong on the law, and (2) he approached the situation wrong to begin with.

Why don't you keep your mouth shut and focus on your own stuff and leave others alone.

GearHead
11-19-2009, 12:14 PM
Another good trick when being interrogated about your large capacity magazines is to tell the police, "I bought all of these hi-cap mags in Reno and smuggled them into California back in 2005." Then sit back and see what they do. :p

Admitting you committed a crime, even though the statute of limitations has passed, is never a good idea.

hnoppenberger
11-19-2009, 12:22 PM
i dont know about all of YOU guys but i bought all my mags when i was 14 and obsessed with miltary stuff. TOTALLY legal and prove i didnt. quit all the *****in.

thebrassnuckles
11-19-2009, 12:51 PM
the hi-cap magazine laws say something to the effect of its illegal to:

import
trade(ie sell/buy, transfer)
manufacture


if you do none of those 2 things, you have not broken any laws.

so.. you could in theory, find a bag full of hi-cap mags and not be breaking a single law.

bugman
11-19-2009, 1:19 PM
Sometimes bad assumptions don't get you anywhere.

This reminds me of a time at the range over 2 years ago. This grumpy local cop asked me if I know the laws since I seem to be doing something not legal. He said I obviously have 30round AR15 mags, and I am freely removing them at will from my RAW AR15. Can't remember the exact words. I know he's a cop because his wallet with badge showing is sitting on top of his range bag. And I was assigned the lane next to him. He turned over towards me like he wants to burn a hole through me while asking the questions. I just answered "Hi officer, good morning! This toys are registered. Did you want to see a copy of the DOJ confirmation letter? And the magazines were all bought at the same time as the rifle in December 1999." I said this as I was reaching for the gun case with copy of DOJ RAW letter under the foam pad. He went silent and took a full 30 seconds (I had the copy of DOJ papers in my hands already) before he spoke again. "Move over a lane. Those damned things throw brass all over me when you shoot." Take note, no please or anything and just in the same grumpy voice. I arrived in the middle of a shooting session and I just shot 10 rounds so far. Nope, I was not sending hot brass towards him because I was making sure that i am seated forward so spent brass hits the side board between us. I gladly moved over, and while I was doing it I noticed other guys snickering at him. Just when I went back to get the last thing from the table, his wife said sorry about that. "It's perfectly fine Ma'am!" I said. Range master came and asked why I moved and told him that the officer asked me to over farther. He went away shaking his head. Cop and wife left after another 10 minute firing session, and he looked at me sideways with this irritated look as they passed me. Don't know what his attitude was all about. Just sad he assumed I was doing illegal stuff and asked questions like we were in interrogation room.

chickenfried
11-19-2009, 1:23 PM
You are a much bigger person than I.
I gladly moved over,

bugman
11-19-2009, 1:39 PM
Well, I just want to have fun shooting, and I just want to de-escalate the situation. I was irritated at first with how he came at me just like that, but watching the snickering and head shakes directed at him changed my mood. He was clearly affected by the embarrassment he caused on himself and to his wife. It was enough to cool me down.

And at 250lbs, I am probably literally much bigger than you. hahaha!:)

You are a much bigger person than I.

IsaacGlass
11-19-2009, 3:42 PM
Wow some people are really unnecessarily rude to this lady, instead of answering her question in a polite respectable manner they jump on her like insecure little bullies.

Sorry but I had to say something and I notice it happen quite often in other threads as well

Please guys educate a gal don't try to beat her down so you can feel better about yourselves because your so smart and know everything, therefore she should know everything and do exactly as you would do.

^^ I corrected that for you

IsaacGlass
11-19-2009, 3:42 PM
Tell that to the OP, She admitted that he is a complete NOOB, But went ahead and came up to someone telling him what he is doing is illegal.....:rolleyes:



^^ I corrected that for you too :D

Don't worry Ducman, you are guaranteed to be 100% more man than me.
It's okay honey, carry on. :rolleyes:

IsaacGlass
11-19-2009, 3:46 PM
That's the RAW part

Registered Assault Weapon

Being an old fart (myself included) has it's privileges.

And they say age doesnt matter. If I had a crystalball back in the mid 80's I would have bought a truck load of HK goodies :D

chuckdc
11-19-2009, 5:12 PM
I have a question, and it's kind of a nit to pick. Let's say my old man was in the military. He passed away before the ban came down. We have several footlockers full of his old gear in the garage. Would I be in deep kimchee if I found, say, some old M1 Carbine mags in there? M1 mags are standard-cap, and the usual Carbine is not an AW.

Note: I DONT have a Carbine at the moment, unfortunately.

bubbagump
11-19-2009, 5:13 PM
^^ I corrected that for you

:D

I was about to do the same thing...

We got a lot of tough guys on Calguns these days :rolleyes:

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 5:37 PM
I have a question, and it's kind of a nit to pick. Let's say my old man was in the military. He passed away before the ban came down. We have several footlockers full of his old gear in the garage. Would I be in deep kimchee if I found, say, some old M1 Carbine mags in there? M1 mags are standard-cap, and the usual Carbine is not an AW.
Assuming you legally own the contents of those footlockers on the conditions of the estate, then you're GTG. It doesn't matter when you "discovered" that you owned the mags... you know when you took possession of the footlockers and the mags were a part of the contents.

On the federal level, large-cap creates an AW (actually non-sporting) for 922(r) compliance issues, but that only applies to imported weapons, so if your new M1 is domestic, you're okay on that level.

The M1 Carbine would be legal with that magazine provided that it is "featureless"... this is one of the reasons that people are building featureless AK/AR platform rifles. The lack of a need for a BB is one thing, but the main issue is the ability to use large-caps.



That is assuming that you are being truthful about the contents of the footlockers and not using that as an opportunity to slap together some rebuild kits... perjury is a crime.

GammaRei
11-19-2009, 9:59 PM
For the OP since this thread has gone a long way since you started it, I think that I might have done the same thing if I was in your situation. That meaning (for the others chomping at the bit waiting to jump on this) that I would have as a law abiding gun owner to kinda step in and help another California gun owner to avoid legal issues. We do it all of the time here. You didn't know, and didn't give them any illegal advice on what to do but now know more so on the legal issues of the situation you experienced. Maybe since we have a flowchart for AW's we should have one for mags since many people don't know the laws on em.

- G

thebrassnuckles
11-20-2009, 7:30 AM
I have a question, and it's kind of a nit to pick. Let's say my old man was in the military. He passed away before the ban came down. We have several footlockers full of his old gear in the garage. Would I be in deep kimchee if I found, say, some old M1 Carbine mags in there? M1 mags are standard-cap, and the usual Carbine is not an AW.

Note: I DONT have a Carbine at the moment, unfortunately.

if you found that footlocker in a ditch on the side of the road yesterday you would be good to go. where in the lawbooks does it say that you can FIND hi-cap magazines?

i reiterate

do not:
trade(sell/buy/transfer)
import
manufacture

you would have violated none of the above.

all you did was get really lucky.

bohoki
11-20-2009, 9:02 AM
You would still be guilty of importation and would need to immediately disassemble the magazines.

its kind of like speeding then you already broke the law there is no way to unspeed?

possession isn't against the law?

so i dont see how dissassembling would do anything for you

dwtt
11-20-2009, 12:38 PM
As others have said, the shooter may have bought the magazines before the ban went into effect. I had the same thing happen to me, but for a different reason. Back in the early 1990s', 1992-1994 time frame, I bought a Colt Sporter HBAR and shot Hi-Power with it. Then I planned to get a M1A for Hi-Power and a shooting jacket and look like I knew what I was doing, but the M1A was expensive, ~$900. I saw an ad for a G-3 for $600 in Shotgun News and decided to get this rifle first than later get the M1A. In the same issue of Shotgun News, I saw an ad by Bachman Pawn for HK-91 and M-14 magazines so I ordered half a dozen of each to save on the shipping charges. Today I still have those M1A magazines, but no M1A. I'll get around to it some day.

On a side note, did anyone here buy those plastic Israeli Orlite magazines they sold in the late 1990s? They were the first plastic M16 magazines I had seen and didn't trust them to be as reliable or durable as aluminum ones but always wondered if I had passed up a good deal.

QuarterBoreGunner
11-20-2009, 12:40 PM
^ I have literally a pile of Orlites all NIB... never got around to trying them out but they sure were cheap back in the day.

Cokebottle
11-20-2009, 12:40 PM
As others have said, the shooter may have bought the magazines before the ban went into effect.
Read a bit further into the thread.
The OP indicated that she knows for a fact that they were purchased after 2000.
Ordinarily, I would say "Ya, MYOB", but in this case, the OP does actually have knowledge that the mags were not obtained legally.

The footlocker scenario... ya, he's GTG.

hawk81
12-13-2009, 12:59 PM
You are dead wrong!!! You should have ran away like a timid little girl.:D


What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Lone_Gunman
12-13-2009, 3:35 PM
I owned a beautiful M1A in 1999. I sold it in 2001 to buy an engagement ring. I still have a bunch of 20 rounders. Why? Because they were banned and I knew I might have a hell of a time replacing them if I ever got around to getting another M1A. I hope someday you will see me at the range with a new M1A and my evil hi-cap mags.

himurax13
01-11-2010, 9:10 PM
Some douchebag at private range was ranting and raving about the mags I had for my Sig P228. He said may god help you if the police find out. I just shrugged it off, so did the 4 police officers that were there. Jesus, what kind of idiot would be stupid enough to say that **** out loud. I could have made him look like an idiot but some people are just not worth it.

RideIcon
01-12-2010, 1:55 AM
I thought magazines with greater than 10-rounds were illegal in California. How did I go wrong?

how does this issue come up like 527,000 times in a single day?

Cokebottle
01-12-2010, 2:26 AM
how does this issue come up like 527,000 times in a single day?
This thread is 2 months old... himurax bumped it this morning.

too old for this
01-12-2010, 11:11 PM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.] Guys like him are just giving the anti-gun people ammo to use against us. Some gun laws are dumb, but if we don't try to follow them we could end up with some really dumb and ugly anti-gun laws. Sorry but that's the way life is. And if you don't like it here, you can always move to Texas -- I will not try to stop you.

Cokebottle
01-12-2010, 11:18 PM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.]
FUD.

The burden of proof is upon the state.
If they were purchased with cash, there is no paper trail that could be used by the state to prove that they were imported or assembled within the last 3 years (3 year statute of limitations on prosecution).

Additionally, purchasing mags is not a crime, only importation (purchasing from out of state), manufacturing (assembly of a parts kit), or offering for sale or lend.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 12:01 AM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.]

Please do not provide an answer unless you actually know the law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions).

randy
01-13-2010, 12:45 AM
I've had a few m1a's over the years, I've sold all of them now. I still have a bunch of mags. When I buy another rifle I'm still gtg on my old mags.

I have RAW's if I were to build an OLL I'd use my mags on a NEF gun.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 12:47 AM
I've had a few m1a's over the years, I've sold all of them now. I still have a bunch of mags. When I buy another rifle I'm still gtg on my old mags.

I have RAW's if I were to build an OLL I'd use my mags on a NEF gun.

I hate you. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_use_my_large_capacity_magazines.3F)

himurax13
01-13-2010, 6:52 AM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.]


And if you don't like it here, you can always move to Texas -- I will not try to stop you.

See its statements like these that just make me want to pimp slap some people at the range, especially at a private range. I am wondering why it seems that most people don't know that owning high cap mags in California is legal. Hell I bought a bunch of them when back in the early 90's when I was 20 (and I didn't even own a gun) because of the impending Assault Weapons ban that did absolutely nothing more than harrass law abbiding gun owners. Its not like I have any receipts for anything I own that is older than 2 years old at my house, much less 16+ years. :rolleyes:

Sniper3142
01-13-2010, 7:22 AM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.]

Just about Everything you just wrote is WRONG.

:(

I can go out today and purchase a brand new standard M1A and then LEGALLY use my 20 rounders in it.

THERE IS NO PROOF OF OWNERSHIP NEEDED for Large Capacity Magazines. And no, date stamps on magazine parts don't matter either since you can legally replace any or all parts with brand new parts.

TripleT
01-13-2010, 8:49 AM
THERE IS NO PROOF OF OWNERSHIP NEEDED for Large Capacity Magazines. And no, date stamps on magazine parts don't matter either since you can legally replace any or all parts with brand new parts.

+1 Simple as that...

Also, I know of a specific case of a lucky individual that bought a busted pallet of rusty ammo cans, for dirt cheap, at an auction and in one of the cans were a number of 20 round colt mags. So "finding" does happen but it sure as hell ain't going to sound plausible. The guy ended up giving them to his local S.O. :(

ap3572001
01-13-2010, 9:54 AM
Thi ssubject is getting old.......Hi capacity magazines....... There are TONS OF MAGAZINES HERE IN CA for Beretta 92FS, Browinng High Power, Sig p226, All kind of S&W Autos etc. If You own any one of them. Or buy any one of them, and happen to have few old magaines laying around . You are fine. If You have gun that most made AFTER THE BAN, Say last year. And You COULD NOT have the magazines before the ban, that may be questionable. Am I making any sense ???? I own a Browning High Power with a bunch of magazines that were made anytime for WWII to 1970's.

strangerdude
01-13-2010, 10:05 AM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

Are you the police, is it your range? Stay out of other peoples business, it's likely they are preban mags anyway.

Jicko
01-13-2010, 10:09 AM
10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.] Guys like him are just giving the anti-gun people ammo to use against us. Some gun laws are dumb, but if we don't try to follow them we could end up with some really dumb and ugly anti-gun laws. Sorry but that's the way life is. And if you don't like it here, you can always move to Texas -- I will not try to stop you.


too old for this
Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The city state of San Francisco
Posts: 20
iTrader: 0 / 0%


Please show the penal code as for the "requirement" of "proof of ownership"!

Please remove your post if you are not sure of what you said is correct.

Flopper
01-13-2010, 10:20 AM
Are you the police, is it your range? Stay out of other peoples business, it's likely they are preban mags anyway.

This.

A month ago some nosy POS raised a stink about my cousin and I shooting my AR pistol from the shoulder.

Other shooters should only worry about safety issues. Other than than: BUTT OUT!

groovebus
01-13-2010, 1:12 PM
M1As look much cooler with a 20 round mag. Like God intended... Same for the AR with a 30 round mag. That's just how it's suppose to be.

Midian
01-13-2010, 1:35 PM
So how does one know if your mag was built prior to 2000, say, if you get rousted at the range by a goodie-two-shoes?

It's just silly.

QuarterBoreGunner
01-13-2010, 1:38 PM
This thread is going circular.

CSACANNONEER
01-13-2010, 1:39 PM
I was wondering why threads like this were kept alive and then, I read this:

10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.] Guys like him are just giving the anti-gun people ammo to use against us. Some gun laws are dumb, but if we don't try to follow them we could end up with some really dumb and ugly anti-gun laws. Sorry but that's the way life is. And if you don't like it here, you can always move to Texas -- I will not try to stop you.

Now I understand that some people are just totally ignorant or incapable of understanding the law.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 1:42 PM
So how does one know if your mag was built prior to 2000, say, if you get rousted at the range by a goodie-two-shoes?

It's just silly.

I hate you. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large_capacity_magazin es.3F)

Look, I'm not opposed to looking out for fellow gun owners. If I'm at the range and I see someone putting 30 round mags in a bullet buttoned rifle, I'll casually ask him if he knows what he's doing. I've met guys who thought they were totally legal because they didn't understand that Bullet Button firearms cannot be used with magazines that hold more than ten rounds.

I didn't go up and start shouting "That's illegal and you're going to jail!" I inquired about their knowledge of the law, and if they were just playing Russian Roulette with their gun rights, **** 'em. If they honestly didn't know what they were doing was illegal, I am happy to let them know that what they're doing could lead to a less than pleasant experience in the future.

If someone approaches ME at the range and tells me what I'm doing is illegal, I'll happily explain all the reasons why that isn't the case. If, after I have explained to them why they are incorrect, they continue to insist that I am breaking the law, they can kindly go **** themselves to death with a rake. If they are law enforcement officers, rather than pursuing a course of rake-sex suicide, I will instead offer them the contact information for any number of attorneys who can explain the law, and exercise my right to remain silent.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 1:44 PM
I was wondering why threads like this were kept alive and then, I read this:



Now I understand that some people are just totally ignorant or incapable of understanding the law.

The more annoying aspect is the ardent refusal of these individuals to click on the links I and others provide over, and over, and over again. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

inbox485
01-13-2010, 1:56 PM
Here is a question:

If I have a pre-ban Glock magazine, and I replace all but the spring with XD parts and then finally replace the spring with an XD part, would that be considered importing or manufacturing if the XD parts were imported as a parts kit?

inbox485
01-13-2010, 1:59 PM
Sometimes bad assumptions don't get you anywhere.

This reminds me of a time at the range over 2 years ago. This grumpy local cop...

There are too many cops like that unfortunately. They take it very personally if they think they have something on you and come up empty handed.

Aldemar
01-13-2010, 2:58 PM
I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here?

hawk81
01-13-2010, 3:07 PM
Quit spreading fud.



10 plus mags were grandfathered in the law. But he has a new gun he damn well better have proof of ownership of the mags pre-2000 or he could be up a creek without a paddle [if not in jail.] Guys like him are just giving the anti-gun people ammo to use against us. Some gun laws are dumb, but if we don't try to follow them we could end up with some really dumb and ugly anti-gun laws. Sorry but that's the way life is. And if you don't like it here, you can always move to Texas -- I will not try to stop you.

wildhawker
01-13-2010, 3:13 PM
I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here?

You only need to have possessed the mag in CA prior to 2000. Read the wiki & FAQ pages.

QuarterBoreGunner
01-13-2010, 3:18 PM
I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here? From 1994, on the Federal level, no NEW standard capacity magazines could be made; but all that were already in existence were perfectly legal to sell/buy/own/use whatever, which made the market for those magazines absolutely insane, with absurd prices. In fact I recall selling factory Glock 17 mags prior to 2001 in my old store for close to $100; people were just bidding them up.

EDIT: don't know if it's true, but I hear rumors at the time, just previous to the 94 AW Ban going in, that some firearms manufacturers stopped producing firearms and concentrated on just cranking standard cap magazines out as fast as they could; probably not true of course, but it illustrates how absurd the law was.

In 2000 the State law took effect that banned the further transfer. On the Federal level the ban expired in 2004 and so new magazines could be manufactured; just not here.

Flopper
01-13-2010, 3:22 PM
I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here?

No. Only prior to 1/1/2000.

Answered by QBG.

Jicko
01-13-2010, 3:22 PM
Here is a question:

If I have a pre-ban Glock magazine, and I replace all but the spring with XD parts and then finally replace the spring with an XD part, would that be considered importing or manufacturing if the XD parts were imported as a parts kit?

If the final magazine does not work in the original firearm (original caliber)... you are manufacturing....that is not a "repair"....

Sniper3142
01-13-2010, 3:37 PM
If the final magazine does not work in the original firearm (original caliber)... you are manufacturing....that is not a "repair"....

You are correct on everything but that bolded part.

Caliber is meaningless. The magazine must work in the FIREARM it was originally designed for.

If I modify one of my 30 round .223/5.56mm AR magazines to function with the 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel rounds, it is STILL LEGAL since it will still function in the firearm (lower receiver).

;)

Cokebottle
01-13-2010, 3:48 PM
If I have a pre-ban Glock magazine, and I replace all but the spring with XD parts and then finally replace the spring with an XD part, would that be considered importing or manufacturing if the XD parts were imported as a parts kit?
No longer usable in the original weapon = manufacturing.
You could swap a 16rd body with a 30rd body as long as the floorplate or follower are compatible, but you can't legally convert it to operate with a different gun if it renders it unusable in the original gun.

Cokebottle
01-13-2010, 3:50 PM
I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here?
Clinton's ban did not prevent the sale/purchase/importation/use... it only prohibited manufacture of new magazines.
Californians could legally purchase existing (pre-ban) high-caps from anyone in any state same as any free-stater can today.

You could have legally received a high-cap on December 31, 1999. You could not have legally assembled a parts kit to make a "new" magazine after 1994.

Aldemar
01-13-2010, 4:12 PM
From 1994, on the Federal level, no NEW standard capacity magazines could be made; but all that were already in existence were perfectly legal to sell/buy/own/use whatever, which made the market for those magazines absolutely insane, with absurd prices. In fact I recall selling factory Glock 17 mags prior to 2001 in my old store for close to $100; people were just bidding them up.

EDIT: don't know if it's true, but I hear rumors at the time, just previous to the 94 AW Ban going in, that some firearms manufacturers stopped producing firearms and concentrated on just cranking standard cap magazines out as fast as they could; probably not true of course, but it illustrates how absurd the law was.

In 2000 the State law took effect that banned the further transfer. On the Federal level the ban expired in 2004 and so new magazines could be manufactured; just not here.

thanks for the clear answer

retired
01-13-2010, 4:35 PM
Are you the police, is it your range? Stay out of other peoples business, it's likely they are preban mags anyway.

And how about you stop being rude

DedEye
01-13-2010, 9:44 PM
Here is a question:

If I have a pre-ban Glock magazine, and I replace all but the spring with XD parts and then finally replace the spring with an XD part, would that be considered importing or manufacturing if the XD parts were imported as a parts kit?

This seems eerily similar to a question that has already been answered repeatedly (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_change_the_capacity_of_my_large_capacity _magazine_when_I_rebuild_it.3F).

PS: I hate you.

I keep hearing that you need to have purchased a standard-cap mag prior to 1/1/2000. Wasn't that during Clinton's AWB?

In other words, in California, you would have had to purchased prior to 1994 when the AWB went into effect.

What am I missing here?

You're missing the answer that was provided after this question was asked repeatedly before. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#How_is_the_California_large_capacity_magazine_ ban_affected_by_the_Federal_ban_.28from_1994-2004.29.2C_and_vice_versa.3F)

PS: I hate you, too.

I also hate everyone that keeps answering the questions people ask when the answers are already available from any of the dozen links in the thread. You're enablers (That includes you, Princess Anastasia! ;)).

lorax3
01-13-2010, 10:14 PM
PS: I hate you.


PS: I hate you, too.

I also hate everyone

Your posts lately have been cracking me up.

I think you are trying to push some Calguns wiki answer type page thing.:) If I didn't repost the same answer 10 times per day then I would have nothing constructive to post at all.

But in all seriousness, good work. I edited a little on the FAQ, and added some to the older CG wiki pages; I will add some more when I get a chance.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 10:24 PM
Your posts lately have been cracking me up.

I think you are trying to push some Calguns wiki answer type page thing.:) If I didn't repost the same answer 10 times per day then I would have nothing constructive to post at all.

But in all seriousness, good work. I edited a little on the FAQ, and added some to the older CG wiki pages; I will add some more when I get a chance.

I cannot overemphasize my gratitude for your assistance.

It may seem pedantic to constantly reference the FAQ, particularly after others have gone to the trouble to repeat the answers already in the thread, but we have to break the cycle of dependency that so many Calgunners seem to suffer. In addition, the FAQ will become a much more prominent fixture on the site in the future if my information is correct.

You can still post constructively by berating people for not referencing the FAQ ;).

QuarterBoreGunner
01-14-2010, 7:17 AM
That includes you, Princess Anastasia! We are not amused.
A little hungry maybe.

Okay yes, I hereby resolve in the future to refrain from re-posting ad nauseum answers to repeatedly asked and historically answered questions such as these; I will instead point the inquiry to the Wiki.

Seesm
01-14-2010, 6:32 PM
I am thinking he owned then (20 rd mags) prior to 12-31-99? (1-1-2000)

DedEye
01-14-2010, 8:09 PM
We are not amused.
A little hungry maybe.

Okay yes, I hereby resolve in the future to refrain from re-posting ad nauseum answers to repeatedly asked and historically answered questions such as these; I will instead point the inquiry to the Wiki.

It's not me that you're helping by doing so, it's all of us ;).

I am thinking he owned then (20 rd mags) prior to 12-31-99? (1-1-2000)

Discussed to DEATH. Seriously, 155 comments before yours and the OP's on the subject. That possibility was mentioned. A lot.

Therefore, I hate you. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)



(Link to the FAQ was just on principle.)

Cokebottle
01-14-2010, 8:20 PM
Discussed to DEATH. Seriously, 155 comments before yours and the OP's on the subject. That possibility was mentioned. A lot.
And the OP's comment in her 3rd or 4th message that the guy is a "friend" and she knows he got them after 2000.

bigcalidave
01-14-2010, 9:09 PM
Lol, dedeye is really cracking me up too... Ok I'm not answering anymore. Although I don't want to memorize your links so I'll just post silly little stories whenever I see another mag capacity question, bb magnet question, ca legal question, handgun roster question, etc....

DedEye
01-14-2010, 9:25 PM
Lol, dedeye is really cracking me up too... Ok I'm not answering anymore. Although I don't want to memorize your links so I'll just post silly little stories whenever I see another mag capacity question, bb magnet question, ca legal question, handgun roster question, etc....

This is the only link you need to memorize, or better yet, bookmark. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ)

From there, peruse the table of contents until you find the section that applies (such as Magazine Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)) then read the questions to find the one that is most like the question being asked. Click the link to the question, or simply right click the question in the table of contents and select "copy link location," and you'll have the URL direct to the relevant answer.

Don't forget to spread the love and let people know how much you hate them while answering.

racinginthestreets
01-14-2010, 9:35 PM
HERE ARE THE CODE SECTIONS THAT APPLY and nothing I write here is meant as anything more than my opinion on these code sections.

12020 (a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes
to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or
offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-
capacity magazine.

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

A couple of points;

1) It's NOT illegal to BUY a mag over 10 rounds even after 2000. Nowhere in the statute do you read "buy" or "purchase". The crime is with the person who sold the mag. Just read the statute.

2) It is NOT illegal to USE or POSSESS a mag over 10 rounds. Nowhere in the statute does it address "use" or "possession".

3) It is NOT illegal to Use an over 10 round mag in a weapon made AFTER 2000. NO law states that pre 2000 mags must be used in the weapon it came from. This means if you owned a pre 2000 hi-cap mag and bought a newer weapon that will accept this type of mag it can be used.

4) The burden is with the state agency to prove that the statute was violated. The charging officer would have to reasonably believe that you did not own these mags prior to 2000. How is that possible? No dates are on any mags that I know of, and even if you are rather young, and let's say that in the year 2000 you were 15 years old, no law states that one must reach a certain age in order to own a mag (a firearm yes, but not a mag). The only way that I see one would be charged is if the mag did not exist until after 2000 and can easily be proven as such, and this is probably in only a few instances.

The reason this topic comes up so much and stirs so much interest is that most of us want to comply with the law but we don't know the laws. This statute is reasonably clear as written, and if you call DOJ, your local sheriff's dept. or local police dept. they will probably confirm this information. However some may have to read the statute since many don't know it by heart. I don't know of any case that has resulted in a conviction for violation of this statute. If anyone has this information PLEASE post it.

DedEye
01-14-2010, 9:38 PM
HERE ARE THE CODE SECTIONS THAT APPLY and nothing I write here is meant as anything more than my opinion on these code sections.

12020 (a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes
to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or
offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-
capacity magazine.

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

A couple of points;

1) It's NOT illegal to BUY a mag over 10 rounds even after 2000. Nowhere in the statute do you read "buy" or "purchase". The crime is with the person who sold the mag. Just read the statute. WRONG

2) It is NOT illegal to USE or POSSESS a mag over 10 rounds. Nowhere in the statute does it address "use" or "possession".

3) It is NOT illegal to Use an over 10 round mag in a weapon made AFTER 2000. NO law states that pre 2000 mags must be used in the weapon it came from. This means if you owned a pre 2000 hi-cap mag and bought a newer weapon that will accept this type of mag it can be used.

4) The burden is with the state agency to prove that the statute was violated. The charging officer would have to reasonably believe that you did not own these mags prior to 2000. How is that possible? No dates are on any mags that I know of, and even if you are rather young, and let's say that in the year 2000 you were 15 years old, no law states that one must reach a certain age to own a mag (a firearm yes, but not a mag). The only way that I see one would be charged is if the mag did not exist until after 2000, and this is probably in only a few instances. WRONG

The reason this topic comes up so much and stirs so much interest is that most of us want to comply the law but we don't know the laws. This statute is reasonably clear as written, and if you call DOJ, your local sheriff's dept. or local police dept. they will probably confirm this information. JUST PLAIN BAD IDEA. However some may have to read the statute since many don't know it by heart. I don't know of any case that has resulted in a conviction for violation of this statute. If anyone has this information PLEASE post it.

Some of what you typed is accurate, and yet it somehow doesn't make me hate you any less than I do right now. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

racinginthestreets
01-14-2010, 9:45 PM
HERE ARE THE CODE SECTIONS THAT APPLY and nothing I write here is meant as anything more than my opinion on these code sections.

12020 (a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes
to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or
offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-
capacity magazine.

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

A couple of points;

1) It's NOT illegal to BUY a mag over 10 rounds even after 2000. Nowhere in the statute do you read "buy" or "purchase". The crime is with the person who sold the mag. Just read the statute.

2) It is NOT illegal to USE or POSSESS a mag over 10 rounds. Nowhere in the statute does it address "use" or "possession".

3) It is NOT illegal to Use an over 10 round mag in a weapon made AFTER 2000. NO law states that pre 2000 mags must be used in the weapon it came from. This means if you owned a pre 2000 hi-cap mag and bought a newer weapon that will accept this type of mag it can be used.

4) The burden is with the state agency to prove that the statute was violated. The charging officer would have to reasonably believe that you did not own these mags prior to 2000. How is that possible? No dates are on any mags that I know of, and even if you are rather young, and let's say that in the year 2000 you were 15 years old, no law states that one must reach a certain age to own a mag (a firearm yes, but not a mag). The only way that I see one would be charged is if the mag did not exist until after 2000, and this is probably in only a few instances.

The reason this topic comes up so much and stirs so much interest is that most of us want to comply the law but we don't know the laws. This statute is reasonably clear as written, and if you call DOJ, your local sheriff's dept. or local police dept. they will probably confirm this information. However some may have to read the statute since many don't know it by heart. I don't know of any case that has resulted in a conviction for violation of this statute. If anyone has this information PLEASE post it.

Anothercoilgun
01-14-2010, 9:45 PM
I thought magazines with greater than 10-rounds were illegal in California. How did I go wrong?

Buy why do you think greater then 10-round magazines are illegal? If that is written someplace and you can produce that statute, you would also so other words explaining purchase, possession, pre and post ban. A single sentence is not the whole picture.

DedEye
01-14-2010, 9:50 PM
Buy why do you think greater then 10-round magazines are illegal? If that is written someplace and you can produce that statute, you would also so other words explaining purchase, possession, pre and post ban. A single sentence is not the whole picture.

Why do you refuse to go to the last page of a thread and see that the topic has been beaten to death worse than the "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" threads? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

racinginthestreets
01-14-2010, 9:57 PM
Hey DedEye,

Simply writing something is WRONG without any substance to follow it is a waste of space. Why don't you try citing what makes it wrong. I did post the statute, do you have anything of substance to refute what I wrote?

DedEye
01-14-2010, 10:02 PM
Hey DedEye,

Simply writing something is WRONG without any substance to follow it is a waste of space. Why don't you try citing what makes it wrong. I did post the statute, do you have anything of substance to refute what I wrote?

Have you clicked any of the dozens of links I have provided? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

The answers within the FAQ explain why in some cases you are in fact half right, and other times simply wrong. I would provide you answers, but I'm trying to encourage people to be self reliant and use critical thinking with a base level of research.

I will grant you this in regards to the FAQ: the citations are lacking and/or nonexistent. If you would like to aid with improving that, I would be genuinely appreciative and would very happily work with you on adding the appropriate cites so that the FAQ is not only comprehensive in answers, but also as a resource for people who need something more authoritative than a Wiki article.

DedEye
01-14-2010, 10:06 PM
Also, since you asked, I'll expand on my "Wrong" responses to your post.

1) While it is not illegal to buy large capacity magazines in California, there is no such thing as a "halfway legal transaction." If the seller is breaking the law, you too would be breaking the law to buy from someone who was not legally eligible to sell large capacity magazines.

2) Large capacity magazines created after January 1, 2000 are not evidence of a crime, since, as you correctly mention, possession is not illegal. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_possession_of_a_large_capacity_magazine_ill egal.3F) If pressed on the subject of how someone can come to possess a large capacity magazine that didn't exist before 2000, read and heed this advice. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large_capacity_magazin es.3F)

3) It's just not a good idea to ask the DOJ or LEOs for legal advice, as they're oft liable to get the answers wrong.

JamesY
01-14-2010, 10:15 PM
I laugh when people come up to me when I'm using my 20 & 30 rnd mags in my Hk91...They either show concern and just want to FYI or they think they know everything and think I'm the dumb one...

I just keep to myself and go on with my session...( can you say RAW )

LOL. I know what you mean. I was once at a match and a guy asks me, "So what's your excuse for having those mags? How can you prove you had them before the ban?" I was using 30rd AR mags and I happen to look young (I'm 30). Apparently, he didn't care for the AR I was using since it has a happy button and I was using the 30rd mags in it. Anyway, I simply replied, "Well, this here registered assault weapon should be enough proof, don't you think?" He just turned around.

Another time, I was using same RAW lower with my 9mm AR conversion. Of course, I was using my legally-owned 32rd mags and several guys would come up, I'd hear behind me, "detachable mag this, illegal that," and I just usually ignore them. They probably don't know chit about RAWs. Or maybe I just look younger than I am which is a compliment :)

strangerdude
01-15-2010, 4:59 PM
And how about you stop being rude

How was I being rude? You don't tell me how to act, period.

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:00 PM
How was I being rude? You don't tell me how to act, period.

Haha, wrong answer Tex.

Respect moderators.

Their house, their rules.

Peter W Bush
01-15-2010, 5:15 PM
IBTL and IBTB

leelaw
01-15-2010, 6:12 PM
How was I being rude? You don't tell me how to act, period.

Guess again. Knock it off.

mattmcg
01-15-2010, 6:50 PM
when it comes to law if you don't know, don't guess

and even if you think you know keep your mouth shut

+1

It always cracks me up when someone feels empowered to try to inform somebody about a law that they are completely ignorant about. I have had a few folks approach me at ranges exactly in this manner and I simply ask them, "Can you quote to me which law I'm braking? Can you cite the specific CPC?"

99% cannot reference the law and I politely tell them that if they are unfamiliar with the law, they shouldn't go around making stuff up.

crosservice
01-17-2010, 12:02 AM
Rule #1 For Correcting People At The Range

You have no obligation to correct them and no indication that there's a reason to do so in the first place. At best you come off like a know-it-all prima donna, at worst you incur the endless, bottomless wrath of the gunsnob community. Rule #1 then should be "avoidance training is your best friend in a gun(law) confrontation" unless you're into that sort of thing.

beyaaah
01-17-2010, 9:52 AM
Scenario.... There are pre-ban 30 round mags in the side pouches of a case that contains a legal OLL with evil features. The EBR has an empty 10 round mag in the mag well and a bullet button. The mags are used for a rifle that is featureless that is carried in the same case.

Any laws broken here?

CSACANNONEER
01-17-2010, 10:03 AM
Scenario.... There are pre-ban 30 round mags in the side pouches of a case that contains a legal OLL with evil features. The EBR has an empty 10 round mag in the mag well and a bullet button. The mags are used for a rifle that is featureless that is carried in the same case.

Any laws broken here?

Not one!

Mitch
01-17-2010, 10:56 AM
Any laws broken here?

None until your buddy grabs a 30-rounder and shoves it into the bullet button rifle.

Some of these edges cases just don't make a lot of sense to me.

B Strong
01-17-2010, 10:56 AM
What should I have done?

I saw a guy using two 20-round .308 magazines today at the range. He was firing a brand new M1A, that was super sweet.

I mentioned to him that they are illegal and he shrugged it off.

Was I wrong and does he know something I don't?

If the M1A was featureless, he could have legally used any capacity mag.

bwiese
01-17-2010, 11:00 AM
Also, since you asked, I'll expand on my "Wrong" responses to your post.

1) While it is not illegal to buy large capacity magazines in California, there is no such thing as a "halfway legal transaction." If the seller is breaking the law, you too would be breaking the law to buy from someone who was not legally eligible to sell large capacity magazines.

2) Large capacity magazines created after January 1, 2000 are not evidence of a crime, since, as you correctly mention, possession is not illegal. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_possession_of_a_large_capacity_magazine_ill egal.3F) If pressed on the subject of how someone can come to possess a large capacity magazine that didn't exist before 2000, read and heed this advice. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large_capacity_magazin es.3F)

3) It's just not a good idea to ask the DOJ or LEOs for legal advice, as they're oft liable to get the answers wrong.

Great summary.

bomb_on_bus
01-17-2010, 11:04 AM
Not illegal, they were probably Pre-2000 magazines.
Lots of people have Pre-ban High caps.


All mine are pre 2000!

DedEye
01-17-2010, 3:59 PM
Scenario.... There are pre-ban 30 round mags in the side pouches of a case that contains a legal OLL with evil features. The EBR has an empty 10 round mag in the mag well and a bullet button. The mags are used for a rifle that is featureless that is carried in the same case.

Any laws broken here?

There is no "constructive possession" of assault weapons in California. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_.22constructive_possession.22_apply_to_Ca lifornia_assault_weapons_laws.3F)

gn3hz3ku1*
01-17-2010, 5:00 PM
this is the reason i just leave my highcaps at home.. i am def within the age range but dont want to explain to people...

plus i am 2 lazy to load that much anyhow :)

inbox485
01-17-2010, 7:20 PM
1) While it is not illegal to buy large capacity magazines in California, there is no such thing as a "halfway legal transaction." If the seller is breaking the law, you too would be breaking the law to buy from someone who was not legally eligible to sell large capacity magazines.

How is that? If the law prohibits the vendor/provider side of the transaction, with what statute could the receiver/buyer be charged?

383green
01-17-2010, 7:26 PM
How is that? If the law prohibits the vendor/provider side of the transaction, with what statute could the receiver/buyer be charged?

Criminal conspiracy, I think, and/or importation if the seller is out of state.

lorax3
01-17-2010, 7:46 PM
I have always found the 'conspiracy to sell large-capacity magazines' question interesting. Is that what you would be charged with?

Does Wharton's Rule (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Wharton's+Rule) play into it at all?

Wharton's Rule is a rule that prohibits the prosecution of two persons for conspiracy to commit a particular offense when the offense in question can only be committed by at least two persons
NOTE: Wharton's Rule does not apply when legislative intent is to the contrary (as when the legislation imposes a separate punishment for conspiracy to commit a particular crime).

Prostitution is always the example they use. Is it possible to sell a large-capacity magazine without a second party? We are not talking about offering for sale.

383green
01-17-2010, 8:13 PM
I have always found the 'conspiracy to sell large-capacity magazines' question interesting. Is that what you would be charged with?

Does Wharton's Rule (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Wharton's+Rule) play into it at all?

I parroted what I've often read from certain high-profile (and generally very knowledgeable posters) here, but I can't recall seeing definitive statements from the 2A-aware lawyers who lurk here. I didn't know about Wharton's Rule, and I'm interested in hearing how it applies to this.

Prostitution is always the example they use. Is it possible to sell a large-capacity magazine without a second party? We are not talking about offering for sale.

I seem to recall from my rich legal training (watching COPS ;)) that both prostitutes and johns get hauled away in handcuffs. Is this because both providing the service and making use of the service are outlawed (unlike large capacity magazines, in which only half of the transaction is explicitly restricted)? And is conspiracy off the table in that case due to Wharton's Rule?

inbox485
01-18-2010, 10:01 AM
The prostitution example doesn't work since every prostitution law I am aware of is worded to criminalize both parties. If the legislative intent was to criminalize the recipient, all they had to do would be include buy or receive in the transaction list. They didn't. My impression is that if somebody approached you offering to sell hi-caps, you could buy them legally. I could see there being a crime if you seek out the vendor, or if you instruct a vendor to ship them to you from out of state.

Anybody know what generic law(s) might cover soliciting another to commit a crime?

GrizzlyGuy
01-18-2010, 10:28 AM
Anybody know what generic law(s) might cover soliciting another to commit a crime?

Possibly 182 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/182.html) (conspiracy):

(a) If two or more persons conspire:
(1) To commit any crime...

inbox485
01-18-2010, 12:01 PM
Possibly 182 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/182.html) (conspiracy):

Sounds about right. Thanks.

racinginthestreets
01-18-2010, 4:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DedEye
1) While it is not illegal to buy large capacity magazines in California, there is no such thing as a "halfway legal transaction." If the seller is breaking the law, you too would be breaking the law to buy from someone who was not legally eligible to sell large capacity magazines.

How is that? If the law prohibits the vendor/provider side of the transaction, with what statute could the receiver/buyer be charged?

The buyer CANNOT be charged. The statute is clear and interpretation made beyond the specific wording of the statute is only left to judges. I know of no buyer of a hi-cap mag that has been prosecuted (or even charged for that matter). Any knowledge of such a case should be posted.

inbox485
01-19-2010, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DedEye
1) While it is not illegal to buy large capacity magazines in California, there is no such thing as a "halfway legal transaction." If the seller is breaking the law, you too would be breaking the law to buy from someone who was not legally eligible to sell large capacity magazines.

How is that? If the law prohibits the vendor/provider side of the transaction, with what statute could the receiver/buyer be charged?

The buyer CANNOT be charged. The statute is clear and interpretation made beyond the specific wording of the statute is only left to judges. I know of no buyer of a hi-cap mag that has been prosecuted (or even charged for that matter). Any knowledge of such a case should be posted.

I think the suggestion here is that if I were to pay you to hop over to Nevada and get me some hi-caps, I could be charged with conspiracy to commit the crime.

racinginthestreets
01-19-2010, 12:19 PM
I think the suggestion here is that if I were to pay you to hop over to Nevada and get me some hi-caps, I could be charged with conspiracy to commit the crime.

Here, I think you are correct because then I could be charged with conspiracy and not the purchase of a hi-cap mag. I think the hi-cap mag law was written for the ease of prosecution. The rationale being if selling, lending or giving hi-cap mags is illegal after 2000, then the act is fairly clear cut (marked by a calender date) and a lot easier to prosecute than it is to prove someone did not own a hi-cap mag prior to 2000.

The burden is on the charging body to offer the necessary proof of a crime. This would be very difficult and I can imagine a lot of cases would be dismissed for lack of evidence if charged.

Decoligny
01-19-2010, 12:22 PM
I think the suggestion here is that if I were to pay you to hop over to Nevada and get me some hi-caps, I could be charged with conspiracy to commit the crime.

CA PENAL CODE 182. (a) If two or more persons conspire:
(1) To commit any crime.
(2) Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime.
(3) Falsely to move or maintain any suit, action, or proceeding.
(4) To cheat and defraud any person of any property, by any means which are in themselves criminal, or to obtain money or property by false pretenses or by false promises with fraudulent intent not to perform those promises.
(5) To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public morals, or to pervert or obstruct justice, or the due administration of the laws.
(6) To commit any crime against the person of the President or Vice President of the United States, the Governor of any state or territory, any United States justice or judge, or the secretary of any of the executive departments of the United States.
They are punishable as follows:
When they conspire to commit any crime against the person of any official specified in paragraph (6), they are guilty of a felony and are punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for five, seven, or nine years.
When they conspire to commit any other felony, they shall be punishable in the same manner and to the same extent as is provided for the punishment of that felony. If the felony is one for which different punishments are prescribed for different degrees, the jury or court which finds the defendant guilty thereof shall determine the degree of the felony the defendant conspired to commit. If the degree is not so determined, the punishment for conspiracy to commit the felony shall be that prescribed for the lesser degree, except in the case of conspiracy to commit murder, in which case the punishment shall be that prescribed for murder in the first degree.
If the felony is conspiracy to commit two or more felonies which have different punishments and the commission of those felonies constitute but one offense of conspiracy, the penalty shall be that prescribed for the felony which has the greater maximum term.
When they conspire to do an act described in paragraph (4), they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
When they conspire to do any of the other acts described in this section, they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine. When they receive a felony conviction for conspiring to commit identity theft, as defined in Section 530.5, the court may impose a fine of up to twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000).
All cases of conspiracy may be prosecuted and tried in the superior court of any county in which any overt act tending to effect the conspiracy shall be done.
(b) Upon a trial for conspiracy, in a case where an overt act is necessary to constitute the offense, the defendant cannot be convicted unless one or more overt acts are expressly alleged in the indictment or information, nor unless one of the acts alleged is proved; but other overt acts not alleged may be given in evidence.

Cokebottle
01-19-2010, 12:45 PM
I think the suggestion here is that if I were to pay you to hop over to Nevada and get me some hi-caps, I could be charged with conspiracy to commit the crime.
That would be interesting, as both of you could certainly be charged... he for importation and "offering for sale" (even if the price is zero).
If you put him up to it, then the importation charge could possibly be applied to both of you... or conspiracy to import.

inbox485
01-19-2010, 2:45 PM
CA PENAL CODE 182. (a) If two or more persons conspire:
(1) To commit any crime.
(2) Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime.
(3) Falsely to move or maintain any suit, action, or proceeding.
(4) To cheat and defraud any person of any property, by any means which are in themselves criminal, or to obtain money or property by false pretenses or by false promises with fraudulent intent not to perform those promises.
(5) To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public morals, or to pervert or obstruct justice, or the due administration of the laws.
(6) To commit any crime against the person of the President or Vice President of the United States, the Governor of any state or territory, any United States justice or judge, or the secretary of any of the executive departments of the United States.
They are punishable as follows:
When they conspire to commit any crime against the person of any official specified in paragraph (6), they are guilty of a felony and are punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for five, seven, or nine years.
When they conspire to commit any other felony, they shall be punishable in the same manner and to the same extent as is provided for the punishment of that felony. If the felony is one for which different punishments are prescribed for different degrees, the jury or court which finds the defendant guilty thereof shall determine the degree of the felony the defendant conspired to commit. If the degree is not so determined, the punishment for conspiracy to commit the felony shall be that prescribed for the lesser degree, except in the case of conspiracy to commit murder, in which case the punishment shall be that prescribed for murder in the first degree.
If the felony is conspiracy to commit two or more felonies which have different punishments and the commission of those felonies constitute but one offense of conspiracy, the penalty shall be that prescribed for the felony which has the greater maximum term.
When they conspire to do an act described in paragraph (4), they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
When they conspire to do any of the other acts described in this section, they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine. When they receive a felony conviction for conspiring to commit identity theft, as defined in Section 530.5, the court may impose a fine of up to twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000).
All cases of conspiracy may be prosecuted and tried in the superior court of any county in which any overt act tending to effect the conspiracy shall be done.
(b) Upon a trial for conspiracy, in a case where an overt act is necessary to constitute the offense, the defendant cannot be convicted unless one or more overt acts are expressly alleged in the indictment or information, nor unless one of the acts alleged is proved; but other overt acts not alleged may be given in evidence.

I've been looking at pc182, and it is important to note that 12020 is a misdemeanor so the felony provision doesn't apply. But there is the other section that refers to "any of the other acts described in this
section" which would include "any crime". So the penalty is actually worse than importing it yourself.

lorax3
01-19-2010, 2:59 PM
If any criminal lawyers are reading this, any thought to the exchange between myself and 383green? Starts at post 187 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3657604&postcount=187). I would love to get some information on this, wether publicly or via a PM.

I was reading some cases involving Wharton's Rule and found that is not applied in all cases. IIRC I read that CA has a separate statue for conspiracy of prostitution so it is a no-go at a state level. Other cited examples I have read (http://definitions.uslegal.com/w/whartons-rule/) include "dueling, bigamy, adultery, pandering, gambling, buying and selling contraband goods, giving and receiving bribes."

Although I did read a gambling case where they were indeed charged with conspiracy.

Blue
01-19-2010, 3:00 PM
Next time, don't bother people at the range ;)

Kharn
01-19-2010, 3:20 PM
If there is any possible legal way for someone to own something, I assume its legally owned. ;)

niceguy
01-24-2010, 7:39 PM
I laugh when people come up to me when I'm using my 20 & 30 rnd mags in my Hk91...They either show concern and just want to FYI or they think they know everything and think I'm the dumb one...

I just keep to myself and go on with my session...( can you say RAW )

Are you talking a registered HK, or a current copy?

QuarterBoreGunner
01-24-2010, 7:55 PM
I just keep to myself and go on with my session...( can you say RAW )

What do you thing RAW stands for?

dantodd
01-24-2010, 8:23 PM
Read Aloud Wanker
Rights Are Worthless

Doheny
01-24-2010, 8:36 PM
MYOB comes to mind.

aGunForEachHand
01-25-2010, 5:45 AM
MYOB comes to mind. Couldn't agree more. Mind your own business- why would you question the legality of someone else's firearms?

Lagduf
01-25-2010, 7:02 AM
What do you thing RAW stands for?

In the world of board games it means "Rules as Written" which are often times at odds with the RAI or "Rules as Intended."

The actual rules and the spirit of the rules so to speak.

I wish I had a registered assault weapon :( and "hi-cap" magazines.