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View Full Version : What to do If you shoot an intruder during HD and you don't have an attorney to call?


Cali-Shooter
11-17-2009, 9:51 PM
Call 911 right away? Call a lawyer that is not 'yours' yet? I heard that the best thing to do is to call an attorney after a shooting, but what if you don't have one? If the intruder you shot is severely wounded, but not dead yet, could you be liable for his death (if he dies) because you did not call 911 right away?

a1c
11-17-2009, 9:59 PM
Who are you, Ted Kennedy?

If you shoot an intruder in your house, you call 911 RIGHT AWAY once you secured your house. If you don't have an attorney, one will be provided to you. If you don't like him, you can always get another one later.

ChuckBooty
11-17-2009, 10:10 PM
lol....that's all I can say....lol

GMONEY
11-17-2009, 10:13 PM
of course call 911! most importantly DO NOT SAY A WORD TO THE POLICE! Only that you were in fear of your life! Let them take you to jail if they have to but SAY NOTHING without an attorney!

Letitrip
11-17-2009, 10:13 PM
You should also make sure that you have enough bread and deli meats to make yourself a sammich.

Cali-Shooter
11-17-2009, 10:14 PM
The 3 S's come to mind:rolleyes:

Care to elaborate? The only results of searching of the "3 S's" I've found were "sh*t, shower, and shave," and I don't think any of the latter two are appropriate after surviving a HD shooting...

cineski
11-17-2009, 10:14 PM
Ummm, so are you going to tell us what happened?

Cali-Shooter
11-17-2009, 10:16 PM
Please hurry and give me some good advice, the guy is bleeding really badly... :D

oaklander
11-17-2009, 10:17 PM
Probably "shoot, shovel and shut up."

Just saying.

I would suggest calling 911 and not talking to the police without consulting with an attorney.

Care to elaborate? The only results of searching of the "3 S's" I've found were "sh*t, shower, and shave," and I don't think any of the latter two are appropriate after surviving a HD shooting...

bballwizard05
11-17-2009, 10:18 PM
im curious bout the 3 s's as well. but yea it seems 911 would be your first call, and should prolly call an attorney before the cops show up... cuz my guess is your gonna get taken in till they sort stuff out. Can an LEO way in on that part?

Cali-Shooter
11-17-2009, 10:26 PM
of course call 911! most importantly DO NOT SAY A WORD TO THE POLICE! Only that you were in fear of your life! Let them take you to jail if they have to but SAY NOTHING without an attorney!

+1

Probably "shoot, shovel and shut up."

Just saying.

I would suggest calling 911 and not talking to the police without consulting with an attorney.

Thanks all. So far, GMONEY and oaklander have the best advice I can see of.

Yeah I guess the best thing would be to keep my mouth shut until I speak with an attorney... of course 911 first, however, I once saw a training vid on how to deal with an armed home invasion, and during the simulation, the homeowner shot the armed suspects, then he took out his cell phone and called his attorney first. I was confused when I saw that, because I thought you need to call the cops first.

ZRX61
11-17-2009, 10:46 PM
"911, what service do you require?"

"Coroner" ;)

.........................
or:

911, what service do you require?

uh, I just shot someone

Is he dead?

BANG!

He is now.......

supersonic
11-17-2009, 10:49 PM
Don't tell the cops ANYTHING they don't need to know. All you need to say to CYA is "THAT man laying right there (in a pool of blood LOL) tried to KILL ME." Point out any pertinent evidence to YOUR advantage. MAKE SURE to keep your witnesses there. And, lastly, say " I will sign the complaint. Other than that, I will be seeking counsel ASAP and will be more than happy to cooperate & help you in any way I can in 24 hours." -- like so.:D

putput
11-17-2009, 10:52 PM
3 s
http://allisonkilkenny.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/dick-cheney-heart-ailment.jpg

Target Plinker
11-17-2009, 10:54 PM
"911, what service do you require?"

"Coroner" ;)

.........................
or:

911, what service do you require?

uh, I just shot someone

Is he dead?

BANG!

He is now.......

:D:D:D:D:D

Cokebottle
11-17-2009, 10:58 PM
of course call 911! most importantly DO NOT SAY A WORD TO THE POLICE! Only that you were in fear of your life! Let them take you to jail if they have to but SAY NOTHING without an attorney!
The easiest "out" on this is to say that you are too shaken up to answer questions, but you will be happy to cooperate in 24 hours.

You WILL be visibly shaken up, as well as emotionally... that is the last time that you should be talking to anyone (including family and witnesses) other than an attorney.

ersatz
11-17-2009, 11:01 PM
I just hope they don't see my "shoot first and find out who you killed later" bumper sticker.

You should call 911 in a timely manner but you also have to think what you will tell the operator. Any suggestions? And certainly refuse to talk to the cops without council present.

oaklander
11-17-2009, 11:04 PM
As little as possible.

Everything that you say to the 911 op is recorded and WILL be used against you.

I just hope they don't see my "shoot first and find out who you killed later" bumper sticker.

You should call 911 in a timely manner but you also have to think what you will tell the operator. Any suggestions? And certainly refuse to talk to the cops without council present.

bballwizard05
11-17-2009, 11:07 PM
ok but WHAT do you say to the 911 person, i just tried to think of something...

should it go like this

them" 911 whats your emergency?"

me "there is a dead guy in my house, he was trying to kill me!"

them "911 what do you mean a dead guy"

I mean anything i say sounds bad... anyone have any suggestions??

Legasat
11-17-2009, 11:14 PM
1. Call 911
2. Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint,
3. Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever).
4. Officer these are the witnesses (if any)
5. Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney.

oldrifle
11-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Just say "Hello, 911?? I just shot a burglar in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I'll never know!" ;)

Seriously though, I would call 911 and say you shot an intruder in your house and then say nothing else about the situation until the police get there. You shouldn't have anything to hide if you legitimately shot someone who broke into your house. You're probably in for some legal hassles, but if you tell the truth you should be fine... right??

bballwizard05
11-17-2009, 11:19 PM
Just say "Hello, 911?? I just shot a burglar in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I'll never know!" ;)

Seriously though, I would call 911 and say you shot an intruder in your house and then say nothing else about the situation until the police get there. You shouldn't have to hide somebody if you legitimately shot someone who broke into your house. You're probably in for some legal hassles, but if you tell the truth you should be fine... right??

I should hope so, i really want to get this confirmed by some LEO's though. seems risky in this state, although from what I have heard, as long as a "third person" were to witness the situation and agree you were in danger, you have a legal right to shoot with deadly aim...

to clarify when i say "third person" i dont mean an actual witness, but that is the way it is described, how the situation would appear to a "third person" watching.

nn3453
11-17-2009, 11:24 PM
I should hope so, i really want to get this confirmed by some LEO's though. seems risky in this state, although from what I have heard, as long as a "third person" were to witness the situation and agree you were in danger, you have a legal right to shoot with deadly aim...


LEO's word is meaningless. Keep your mouth shut and talk to your attorney. Doesn't matter how justified it is. LEO's job is not to help you understand the law or prevent you from breaking it. It is to arrest, charge and let the court sort it out. If you want to understand the law read up or consult a lawyer.

Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

LiquidFlorian
11-17-2009, 11:26 PM
This may also help... ;)
6wXkI4t7nuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

ZRX61
11-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Also, the layout of your home could have some impact on the outcome.
For instance, if the now deceased perp is in, or near, your childs bedroom.... (& bares an uncanny resemblance to Gary Glitter or Mike Jackson..)

bballwizard05
11-17-2009, 11:34 PM
good advice, i feel a little better i guess

Carnivore
11-17-2009, 11:36 PM
I should hope so, i really want to get this confirmed by some LEO's though.


No you want what ever attorney is going to be defending you in court to confirm this. Remember that LEO's do not have to tell you the truth an more importantly ARE NOT DEFENSE ATTORNEY'S! Sorry but to many people make this mistake. Not saying any officer will intentionally get you in trouble but this is not their area of expertise.

I would say I BELIEVE to call 911 FIRST as anyone else you call could make you look like you thought you MIGHT be doing something wrong instead of really protecting your life.

Let 911 know that your gun is now safe an no officers are in danger but you do not know how many other intruders there could have been you only saw the guy on the floor.

Make sure you let 911 know you are out front to meet LE with hands visible so no mistakes are made like in Arizona. This is unless you KNOW more guys are or have been out front then let 911 know.

Answer any questions 911 has about the immediate situation but nothing about the shooting that will give them ammo against you legal or not. SAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE an don't be afraid to just say please send someone soon an avoid any specifics about the shooting it's self. How did you feel, feel now, fear weapons they had etc just say nothing an avoid it at all costs.

oldrifle
11-17-2009, 11:36 PM
OK, after watching that, I take back what I said. I won't say anything to the police regardless of whether I have anything to hide. Great vid!

This may also help... ;)
6wXkI4t7nuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 12:01 AM
Make sure you let 911 know you are out front to meet LE with hands visible so no mistakes are made like in Arizona. This is unless you KNOW more guys are or have been out front then let 911 know.
I would say an exception to this is if the perp is disabled or has surrendered (whether injured or not) after the shooting.
The 911 call is still needed even if the perp flees to document the discharge of the weapon (if you don't call, a neighbor will... best be you to show you are not hiding anything)...

But if the perp is injured, he may still attempt to attack you or others in the home. You can't execute the guy.
I would suggest unlocking and opening the door if possible while holding the perp under the gun... if not possible, perhaps let 911 know where the perp's point of entry was so they can come in that way... otherwise you're going to be buying a new door.

It would certainly be ideal to have someone wait out front for them so they don't get the feeling they may be walking into an ambush.


There's just so many ways this crap can play out that it's impossible to make any solid plans. You can plan for what you would LIKE to do... and that would be to scare the perp away without firing a shot and simply reporting the burglary, but when arming ourselves for HD, we have to be prepared to make on-the-spot decisions as to whether to fire, whether to fire again, and how to allow the responders admittance without them feeling they may be in danger.

Carnivore
11-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Who would leave him alive to sue the crap out of you later? Sorry but I shoot to kill but yes you would have to keep a live perp covered till LE arrives but then you would have to let 911 know he is still kicking and to send a ambulance instead of coroner.

Cokebottle
11-18-2009, 12:30 AM
Who would leave him alive to sue the crap out of you later? Sorry but I shoot to kill
True... but if you don't succeed, you can't execute him.

And don't ever say to anyone that you "shoot to kill".

I don't intend to... I intend to shoot to neutralize the threat. If that means he dies, then it means he dies.

Whether he dies or not, his family is still going to sue the crap out of you, especially if he is of a different racial background than you are.

team1320
11-18-2009, 2:48 AM
never really thought about this.. good thing i clicked casue there is some useful info in here.. i want to see what LEO on the site have to say/add..

bballwizard05
11-18-2009, 2:51 AM
never really thought about this.. good thing i clicked casue there is some useful info in here.. i want to see what LEO on the site have to say/add..

Earlier in this thread it was stated that what an LEO has to say doesnt matter... I agree there input seems valuable to me. However I think to a certain extent it is true that whatever they say on here matters very little, calling an attorney and 911 in either order are TOP priority, and if you shoot someone for the first time I'm pretty positive you will be shaken up, so you will have a good reason to tell LE that you need a few hours to straighten up then you will be happy to cooperate.

alex00
11-18-2009, 4:19 AM
never really thought about this.. good thing i clicked casue there is some useful info in here.. i want to see what LEO on the site have to say/add..

As an LEO I would add/suggest some of the following:
If you can call 911 during the incident prior to the shooting all the better. The 911 recording will capture the sound of the struggle and any rounds fired. This can go a long way to helping your verbal account of the events. A simple statement to the dispatcher of "I shot an intruder in my home, send and ambulance. I am wearing a XXXX shirt and XXXX pants." You can always drop the phone and it will still record the voices and struggle in your home.

As the officer responding to your home, I want to know what you look like, and what room you are in. I would also want you to comply with all my directions, which may initially lead to handcuffing. It's nothing personal, or meant to imply you did anything wrong. Until I figure out what happened and who you are, you may be put in handcuffs.

If you can holster your weapon safely, please do so. If the badguy is dead or dying, and you have ample cover it will probably be safer for you when responding officers arrive. Mistakes have happened where homeowners were standing over a BG with guns drawn. This is a judgement call on your part, obviously if the guy is still a threat you aren't going to put your gun away. Even as an LEO if I am off duty in plain clothes one of the riskiest things I could do is hold somebody at gunpoint. You probably won't see or hear the officers coming, and if they didn't get a good description of you, and see you pointing a gun at someone bad things can happen.

As far as after the shooting, do whatever your attorney tells you to do. Beyond telling officers how many rounds were fired, and how many intruders were in the home, you shouldn't be expected to give a detailed statement right away.

cdtx2001
11-18-2009, 6:48 AM
"Dead men tell no tales", nor file lawsuits but their families do.

I think no matter what happens, if you shoot someone in self defense, you will have your day in court. The less you say to the police will help you. As those youtube videos state, "anything you say will be used against you, not help you".

I don't WANT to shoot anyone, but if I HAVE to, I will in order to protect myself and family.

Besides, having to shoot someone in my house is a horrible idea. Think of the carpets!!! I'd rather scare em off and hopefully they will know that this house is not a soft target.

BTW, yelling "I'm armed, go away!!!!" hurts my throat. The racking of a shotgun sends a clear message.

AJAX22
11-18-2009, 7:14 AM
Its generally a good idea for there to only be ONE side of the story.

bullets are cheap, be generous.




seriously though, call 911 and do NOT speak to anyone...

repeat after me: "I was afraid for my life, I am too shaken to make a statement at this time, I need to speak with my attorney"

gazzavc
11-18-2009, 7:25 AM
Call Domino's.

A) They'll probably be there before the cops

and

B) You'll probably be hungry and in need of something when all the adrenaline finally slows down.

tunder
11-18-2009, 7:46 AM
Massad Ayoob video on what to do in case of a CCW shooting.

http://tinyurl.com/yclrcx3

1. Call 911
2. Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint,
3. Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever).
4. Officer these are the witnesses.
5. Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney.


My rules here in Missouri may be different than yours.
We have an effective Castle Doctrine that mitigates the wrongful death lawsuits.

maxit
11-18-2009, 7:57 AM
Lawyer?

Colodny's card is at the local range: 714.639.6767 also 909.862.3113 as if it matters whether its a long distance telephone number after you are about to be indited.
Ditto on everything else said above.

Tell him I sent you,

Max

rod
11-18-2009, 7:58 AM
When you call 911, NEVER say "I just shot someone". Instead, say "there's been a shooting and there are injuries. I'm trying to administer first aid now." Call a lawyer next.



Judge: Why did you shoot that man 10 times?

Me: Well your Honor, it's a long story. You see, I was going to buy some ammo off the internet, but that's illegal. So, I went to Walmart, and they were sold out. My local gunstore was shut down and is now a flower shop. I do own a box of ammo but my magazine only holds ten rounds, so that's why I shot him only ten times.

pTa
11-18-2009, 8:08 AM
When you call 911, NEVER say "I just shot someone". Instead, say "there's been a shooting and there are injuries. I'm trying to administer first aid now." Call a lawyer next.



Judge: Why did you shoot that man 10 times?

Me: Well your Honor, it's a long story. You see, I was going to buy some ammo off the internet, but that's illegal. So, I went to Walmart, and they were sold out. My local gunstore was shut down and is now a flower shop. I do own a box of ammo but my magazine only holds ten rounds, so that's why I shot him only ten times.

Great opening point, howevr when asked why you shot ANYONE;
"I was scared for my life. He kept moving, so I kept shooting. I was in mortal fear."
Luckily I'm a girl and can turn on the waterworks as easily as a light switch.

socal2310
11-18-2009, 8:22 AM
I can't add much to what has been said except to say that in a clear cut defensive shooting inside your home (signs of forced entry, the deceased has no reasonable cause to be there) you're probably in good shape criminally speaking (the western ethos still prevails in the court of public opinion; this state and its DA's haven't yet succumbed to the British sheeple mentality that harming another, regardless of the circumstances, is wrong) and probably in civil court.

I certainly haven't heard of a malicious prosecution of a homeowner acting in self defense during a home invasion in this state but I've heard about plenty of DA's declining to prosecute in cases involving crooks killing crooks.

Ryan

Glock22Fan
11-18-2009, 8:27 AM
I can't add much to what has been said except to say that in a clear cut defensive shooting inside your home (signs of forced entry, the deceased has does not have reasonable cause to be there) you're probably in good shape criminally speaking (the western ethos still prevails in the court of public opinion; this state and its DA's haven't yet succumbed to the British sheeple mentality that harming another, regardless of the circumstances, is wrong) and probably in civil court.

I certainly haven't heard of a malicious prosecution of a homeowner acting in self defense during a home invasion in this state but I've heard about plenty of DA's declining to prosecute in cases involving crooks killing crooks.

Ryan

Corrected it for you, I think.

bodger
11-18-2009, 8:30 AM
When you call 911, NEVER say "I just shot someone". Instead, say "there's been a shooting and there are injuries. I'm trying to administer first aid now." Call a lawyer next.



Judge: Why did you shoot that man 10 times?



"Because I didn't have time to assemble my 30 round rebuild kit."


After reading this thread, I pity the fool who breaks into a CalGunner's house. :D:D

Seesm
11-18-2009, 9:20 AM
It is the 6 "S"'s btw... Shoot, shovel, shutup and then sh*t, shower and shave. JK bad joke. :)

Mayhem
11-18-2009, 9:31 AM
Please hurry and give me some good advice, the guy is bleeding really badly... :D

I have 3 signs posted around the outside of my house

one at the front on the porch by they front door

one in front on the house next to the side gate and garage

and one on the back of the house near the pool ....

"No Trespassing, Violators will be shot, Survivors will be shot again!"

GrizzlyGuy
11-18-2009, 9:32 AM
When you call 911, NEVER say "I just shot someone". Instead, say "there's been a shooting and there are injuries. I'm trying to administer first aid now." Call a lawyer next.

+1. And hang the phone up immediately after your "I'm trying to administer first aid now" statement. No other information needs to get on that 911 recording since any information could be used against you later.

Someone already linked to this video, good info in it as well, if you can't immediately get in contact with your lawyer for situation-specific advice:

Guns & Ammo - After a Real Shooting (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1541138791?bclid=1527680698&bctid=16359316001).

As always, and as already referenced, these apply unless and until your lawyer says otherwise:

Don't Talk to Cops - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)

Don't Talk to Cops - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE)

Jonnyboy182
11-18-2009, 9:45 AM
My CCW Class instructor (who has LEO experience btw) told us to do the following right after a shooting.

1-Call 911
"Help I need help, some guy tried to attack me, I stopped him with my legally carried weapon." Or "A guy tried to attack me, he broke into my house and I shot him."

2-Hang up the phone

3-When PD arrive: "Officer thank you for coming to help me! This man/woman tried to kill me and I want them arrested! They used that weapon!"

4-Be a vague as possible, then say "Officer I want to help you in this investigation by giving you all the information I can, however at this point I am too shaken up to continue. I will be in the Police Department to answer all questions in 24 hours." Now note that the police CAN force you to answer questions as a witness, but it CANT be used against you in court.

5-Have a good CCW attorneys card in your wallet and in your desk at home. Call as soon as you get home.

6-Don't feel bad about not talking at that moment to police. Studies PROVE that you're in no state to answer questions! An example would be time speeding up or slowing down. IE "I shot him 5 mins ago!" when in reality it was 5 seconds. How about the regret you'll feel after shooting someone "I didn't mean to do it!" that sounds great for a lawyer! :p

Also note that most if not ALL LEOS have a union lawyer that will be with them if they are answering questions. It is the policy at my cousins dept to NOT question any LEOS involved in shooting situations if they don't have a Lawyer present. So why not use the same right?

wash
11-18-2009, 9:48 AM
#1, find an attorney to call.

But if I was involved in a self defense shooting I would do a few things.

First, shoot the bad guy until he is not moving.

Second, make sure none of his friends are around.

Third, call 911, the part about a shooting and first aid sounds good, giving them a description of yourself might keep you from being shot.

Fourth call your lawyer and lock anything you don't want confiscated in to your safe.

Fifth, administer first aid and wait for the cops.

Sixth, cooperate with the police but don't say anything beside I feared for my life and I want to talk to my lawyer.

a1c
11-18-2009, 9:51 AM
Yup, "I was fearing for my life" is a line every cop knows and will use after a shooting.

Learn it.

AMDG
11-18-2009, 10:00 AM
1. Call 911.
2. Ask for ambulance/paramedics.
3. Ask for police.
4. Hang up.
5. Place your firearm somewhere visible (like a table) with the action open.
6. Sit down (away from the firearm).
7. Wait for paramedics and police.
8. The only words that come out of your mouth period are "I reserve the right to remain silent." DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE!
9. You will then be arrested and booked.
10. You can tell your story to your public defender or hired attorney. This conversation will be privileged and confidential.

Note: The reason you don't say anything to anyone other than your attorney is that anything you say to anyone other than your attorney will be used as evidence against you by the bad guys family when they sue the s**t out of you. It makes their case much more difficult and less likely to prevail if you don't give them any evidence.
9

Decoligny
11-18-2009, 10:01 AM
ok but WHAT do you say to the 911 person, i just tried to think of something...

should it go like this

them" 911 whats your emergency?"

me "there is a dead guy in my house, he was trying to kill me!"

them "911 what do you mean a dead guy"

I mean anything i say sounds bad... anyone have any suggestions??

Them: "911 what's your emergency"

You: "I need an ambulance and the police at (address), an intruder has been shot. Please stay on the line and let me know when the police are at the door so that I can secure my firearm."

If they ask for anymore information just repeat: "I need an ambulance and the police, an intruder has been shot. Please hurry."

The only person authorized to actually say "This guy is dead!" is the Coroner. Until then, an intruder has been shot, never "I just killed a guy!" or anything similar to that.

ZRX61
11-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Judge: Why did you shoot that man 10 times?

Me: Well your Honor, it's a long story. You see, I was going to buy some ammo off the internet, but that's illegal. So, I went to Walmart, and they were sold out. My local gunstore was shut down and is now a flower shop. I do own a box of ammo but my magazine only holds ten rounds, so that's why I shot him only ten times.


There's some great testimony from the inquest into the Iranian Embassy seige in London back in about 1980. Judge asked one of the SAS guys why he administered (iirc) THIRTY NINE rounds to one of the terrorists...

Answer:
"He was still twitching"

ZRX61
11-18-2009, 10:29 AM
"No Trespassing, Violators will be shot, Survivors will be fed to the Alligator!"

Fixed it for ya ;)

Kid Stanislaus
11-18-2009, 10:56 AM
"I'm sorry officer but ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY I have nothing further to say."

greg36f
11-18-2009, 1:20 PM
[QUOTE=rod;3376983]When you call 911, NEVER say "I just shot someone". Instead, say "there's been a shooting and there are injuries. I'm trying to administer first aid now." Call a lawyer next.


PLEASE don't do this............It makes it more dangerous for all involved. It just makes the police think that there is some unknown shooter out there and they will treat the situation differently than it needs to be treated. It looks like you are trying to hide something and THAT may be used against you in court (civil or criminal). Let's say that it turns out that it was not a good shoot. They can go back and point to the fact that you were evasive right from the start. Because THEY ARE GOING TO ASK WHERE THE SHOOTER IS on the phone.

"I just shot someone who broke into my house, this is where I am in the house, and this is what I look like and please tell me when you (the police) get here because I am still pointing my gun at him". Tell all your family members to remain where they are and to stay calm. When the police arrive, do exactly what they say. You may even want to toss the gun away from where the suspect is laying just as the officers arrive.

There are of course a billion variations to this situation, but this is a good starting point.

When police officers get into a shooting they must give a "public safety statement" to the first arriving officers or supervisor. This includes what direction you shot in, about how many shots you fired and your opinion as to whether there are any outstanding suspects (wounded or not). Then they shut up and wait for their attorney.

The police will likely ask you these questions and they are reasonable questions to answer. At this pint, all the police should be worried about is any additional suspects that may be in the area and any people that may be wounded by bullets that flew in their direction.

The guy that broke into your house was a criminal and believe it or not, cops don't like criminals any more than you do......

Wait for an attorney to make a statement, but please give them enough to respond safely and to ensure that your neighbors are safe too......hate to have you say nothing and it turns out that one of your rounds went into a neighbor’s house and killed or wounded them.

dav
11-18-2009, 1:41 PM
greg36f, I have to strongly disagree. Lots of fear and adrenaline... how do you know ABSOLUTELY CERTAINLY that you killed him (her/it/whatever)? Maybe you startled his buddy you didn't know was behind you and HE shot him.

Maybe you missed but scared him so bad he died of a heart attack.

An admission of guilt in the very beginning? No. It WILL be used against you, whether it turns out you were right or wrong about how the perp died.

nicki
11-18-2009, 1:47 PM
1. You need to secure that you did stop him and that he is no longer a threat to you or your family.

2. Make sure he doesn't have friends, once you are sure things are secure, then make your call to 911.

Say what you need to say and only what you need to say. You would probably be extremely shaken up which makes it ultra important to watch what you say.

I probably would say that I was attacked, I defended myself, I stopped my attacker, he is on the ground, I don't know if he is dead or alive, I'm not touching or going near him, please get hear quickly.

I would ask the operator is there anything else they need then hang up. I immediately call a best friend and tell them I need a lawyer, direct them to this site fast. I would not give the friend info other than that there was a shooting and I need a competent lawyer and where I was at.

Probably not perfect, but I'm not stating anything that won't be obvious when the police get there anyway.

3. When the police get there my answer to their questions would be that I will be happy to talk with them after I talk with an attorney. I would be respectful, tell them I understand that they have a job to do and leave it at that.

4. Under no circumstance do things like drag the body into the house or do anything to tamper with the evidence. If you tamper with the evidence and the police investigators find you did, you could find yourself facing significant legal charges.

Fortunately 99 percent of the time when we draw our guns, Shots do not have to be fired, so for most of us, this will be a situation that we will never have to face.

That being said, it will be my luck that this board is full of people who actually were involved in self defense shootings.

Nicki

greg36f
11-18-2009, 2:13 PM
greg36f, I have to strongly disagree. Lots of fear and adrenaline... how do you know ABSOLUTELY CERTAINLY that you killed him (her/it/whatever)? Maybe you startled his buddy you didn't know was behind you and HE shot him.

Maybe you missed but scared him so bad he died of a heart attack.

An admission of guilt in the very beginning? No. It WILL be used against you, whether it turns out you were right or wrong about how the perp died.

Well, I guess he could have suddenly realized what he was doing was wrong and he died of shame, but that's not likely......if you just shot somebody, you just shot somebody,,,,Your gonna have to own that at some point....if you look all evasive and sketchy from the beginning, it can only work against you in a criminal or civil suit........It's all recorded. When they play you saying that somebody (not sure who) shot somebody (not sure why) in my house, people (possibly a jury) are gonna be WTF?

I just shot someone that broke into my house, I'm pointing the gun at him till you get here is a normal, expected response.

Tell them what you lok like and wheer you are.

When the cops get there, "I shot him, I shot about 5-6 shots in that direction and I did or did not see any other suspects" Can I have a lawyer please?

Thats it!!

boxbro
11-18-2009, 2:47 PM
First of all, you NEVER "shoot to kill", you shoot to neutralize the threat, nothing more.
After you have neutralized the threat you call 911 and say, "I have been involved in a self defense shooting, the attacker has been shot and needs an ambulance now, please send someone quickly" then hang up.
When the police get there simply say, as others have suggested, "I am too shaken up to answer any questions right now, I will answer your questions after I gather myself and speak to my lawyer".

rod
11-19-2009, 5:40 AM
Well, I guess he could have suddenly realized what he was doing was wrong and he died of shame, but that's not likely......if you just shot somebody, you just shot somebody,,,,Your gonna have to own that at some point....if you look all evasive and sketchy from the beginning, it can only work against you in a criminal or civil suit........It's all recorded. When they play you saying that somebody (not sure who) shot somebody (not sure why) in my house, people (possibly a jury) are gonna be WTF?

I just shot someone that broke into my house, I'm pointing the gun at him till you get here is a normal, expected response.

Tell them what you lok like and wheer you are.

When the cops get there, "I shot him, I shot about 5-6 shots in that direction and I did or did not see any other suspects" Can I have a lawyer please?

Thats it!!

I disagree with you. Anything you say will be used against you. Why say anything more than you need to. There's been a shooting and I need help. That's it. You telling the disbatcher that you shot someone makes you the bad guy instantly. That'll come back to haunt you in court....guaranteed. You saying that your life was in danger is just your opinion as far as anyone else is concerned. You have to prove that your life was in danger and you're not going to do that over the phone. When the cops get there, you can expect to be treated as a suspect no matter what you say on the phone, until things are sorted out. The cops are more concerned with their own safety than anything else and will act accordingly. Go ahead and tell them what you look like if you want, it won't make any difference.

I'm not a lawyer, but my opinion is based off of conversations with my cousin, who is a prosecutor.....you know, the one who will be asking you the tough questions on the stand. I'll take her advice any day.

AMDG
11-19-2009, 10:07 AM
There are a lot of opinions here about what to do, but let me make one thing crystal clear:

DO NOT SAY ANYTHING TO 911 EXCEPT TO REQUEST AN AMBULANCE AND POLICE.

DO NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE PARAMEDICS OR THE POLICE EXCEPT "I AM EXERCISING MY RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT".

DO NOT TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED. YOU WILL BE ARRESTED NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AND SAYING ANYTHING WILL NOT HELP ANYTHING BUT WILL MOST CERTAINLY MAKE CIVIL AND CRIMINAL MATTERS WORSE.

a1c
11-19-2009, 10:23 AM
I disagree with you. Anything you say will be used against you. Why say anything more than you need to. There's been a shooting and I need help. That's it. You telling the disbatcher that you shot someone makes you the bad guy instantly. That'll come back to haunt you in court....guaranteed. You saying that your life was in danger is just your opinion as far as anyone else is concerned. You have to prove that your life was in danger and you're not going to do that over the phone. When the cops get there, you can expect to be treated as a suspect no matter what you say on the phone, until things are sorted out. The cops are more concerned with their own safety than anything else and will act accordingly. Go ahead and tell them what you look like if you want, it won't make any difference.

I'm not a lawyer, but my opinion is based off of conversations with my cousin, who is a prosecutor.....you know, the one who will be asking you the tough questions on the stand. I'll take her advice any day.

Well I'm no lawyer either, if we're going to talk about DAs, I married one, and I count quite a few in different CA counties as my friends. Hell, they might know your cousin.

Their advice is not as clear cut on the matter. It meets that of what LEOs have already mentioned in here. When the police arrives: gives them the bare facts. They are not going to expect a detailed story. They just need to know the basic timeline, who shot whom, where, how many times, where your firearm is. You were fearing for your life - imprint that sentence in your brains until it comes out naturally Now if that is true, no problem. That's it. The cops are not going to expect a play-by-play. You'll be shaken and probably a mess.

The cops are not in the business of screwing you. But they're naturally suspicious. They're trained to be. If you clam up and ask for a lawyer right away without even telling them anything of what happened, you are going to look VERY suspicious. They're going to start wondering what kind of history there might be between the intruder and you. They're going to look for other firearms, drugs, anything suspicious or out of place. They're going to think this might be a deal of some sort gone bad. Or a dispute about a woman (or a man, not that there's anything wrong with that :D ). If you've got empty bottles of liquor or wine on your kitchen counter because you had some friends over earlier or a nice dinner, then that's going to go in the report too. And so on.

If the police starts asking for more details, just ask them politely if you can do that later, and that you'll be at their disposal the next day. Now they might very well take you away anyway depending on the circumstances, but that's procedure, nothing personal. But if you lawyered up right away, the cops are for sure going to treat you just like any random alleged criminal they pick up off the street.

Now enough with the assumption that all California DAs are out to get the gun-owning public. The DAs I know are conservative, liberal or libertarian. Some of them are hunters, some of them are NRA members, and even the ones in SF don't necessarily hate guns or gun owners. It's ridiculous to assume that you're automatically going to be charged if you shoot an intruder. That's just not true.

The key is in showing the intruder was a danger and threatening you. Don't go shoot burglars who are breaking into your garage in your backyard, just stay inside and call 911. Don't shoot in the back a burglar who's running away from your front yard - this might go well in Texas, but not here, deal with it. As long as the guy was inside your house or on your property and that you were fearing for your life, you will be fine and no charges are likely to be brought against you. If you find recent stories of people who got charged for shooting someone who broke into their homes, I want to see them, because I'd bet there was more to them than a burglary gone wrong.

By the way, recent case in my county, which gathered some national news, the Renato Hugues case: guy breaks into a pot grower's home with two accomplices. They beat up the owner's kid badly. The owner shoots two of the intruders dead. The remaining living intruder was charged with the murder of his 2 accomplices under a little-used California law. The murder convictions didn't stick with the jury though, but the intruder was still convicted for several felonies. The owner was never charged. Now the irony is that he was no white knight either, and recently got charged with murder in another case. :rolleyes:

AMDG
11-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Well I'm no lawyer either, if we're going to talk about DAs, I married one, and I count quite a few in different CA counties as my friends. Hell, they might know your cousin.

Their advice is not as clear cut on the matter. It meets that of what LEOs have already mentioned in here. When the police arrives: gives them the bare facts. They are not going to expect a detailed story. They just need to know the basic timeline, who shot whom, where, how many times, where your firearm is. You were fearing for your life - imprint that sentence in your brains until it comes out naturally Now if that is true, no problem. That's it. The cops are not going to expect a play-by-play. You'll be shaken and probably a mess.

The cops are not in the business of screwing you. But they're naturally suspicious. They're trained to be. If you clam up and ask for a lawyer right away without even telling them anything of what happened, you are going to look VERY suspicious. They're going to start wondering what kind of history there might be between the intruder and you. They're going to look for other firearms, drugs, anything suspicious or out of place. They're going to think this might be a deal of some sort gone bad. Or a dispute about a woman (or a man, not that there's anything wrong with that :D ). If you've got empty bottles of liquor or wine on your kitchen counter because you had some friends over earlier or a nice dinner, then that's going to go in the report too. And so on.

If the police starts asking for more details, just ask them politely if you can do that later, and that you'll be at their disposal the next day. Now they might very well take you away anyway depending on the circumstances, but that's procedure, nothing personal. But if you lawyered up right away, the cops are for sure going to treat you just like any random alleged criminal they pick up off the street.

Now enough with the assumption that all California DAs are out to get the gun-owning public. The DAs I know are conservative, liberal or libertarian. Some of them are hunters, some of them are NRA members, and even the ones in SF don't necessarily hate guns or gun owners. It's ridiculous to assume that you're automatically going to be charged if you shoot an intruder. That's just not true.

The key is in showing the intruder was a danger and threatening you. Don't go shoot burglars who are breaking into your garage in your backyard, just stay inside and call 911. Don't shoot in the back a burglar who's running away from your front yard - this might go well in Texas, but not here, deal with it. As long as the guy was inside your house or on your property and that you were fearing for your life, you will be fine and no charges are likely to be brought against you. If you find recent stories of people who got charged for shooting someone who broke into their homes, I want to see them, because I'd bet there was more to them than a burglary gone wrong.

By the way, recent case in my county, which gathered some national news, the Renato Hugues case: guy breaks into a pot grower's home with two accomplices. They beat up the owner's kid badly. The owner shoots two of the intruders dead. The remaining living intruder was charged with the murder of his 2 accomplices under a little-used California law. The murder convictions didn't stick with the jury though, but the intruder was still convicted for several felonies. The owner was never charged. Now the irony is that he was no white knight either, and recently got charged with murder in another case. :rolleyes:

Well, I am a lawyer. Please see my post above. No bare facts, no answering questions. Clam the f**k up. It does not matter how you "appear" to the arresting officers. Your lawyer will tell the story to the prosecutor for you.

a1c
11-19-2009, 10:32 AM
Well, I am a lawyer. Please see my post above. No bare facts, no answering questions. Clam the f**k up. It does not matter how you "appear" to the arresting officers. Your lawyer will tell the story to the prosecutor for you.

Of course you would say that, you're a lawyer. That's what you tell your clients.

:rolleyes:

stagman
11-19-2009, 10:42 AM
Finally got a call back from a friend of mine, SGT at RSO.

He says if you say nothing... You are definately going to jail that night, leaving your family home by themselves to fend for themselves, while you wait for a lawyer at the station. At 1 am, you may be there a while. Police will always assume the worst, and that means you are a suspect, not a victim. Innocent until proven guilty my *****.

Yes, I agree that you dont want to incriminate yourself by saying something stupid, but by giving one to two word answers, yes, no, etc. truthfully, and honestly, he said you probably wont even be arrested that night, if everything appears to be legit and on the up and up.

I would never leave my wife and infant son alone, to face possible recourse by the robbers associates who may be in the bushes watching... Just my 2 cents.

AMDG
11-19-2009, 11:00 AM
Assume you will be arrested at the time of the call, because that is what will happen 99.99% of the time no matter what.

Free legal advice in post #63. Read it, know it, do it.

stagman
11-19-2009, 11:21 AM
This issue is making my palms sweaty...

I pray that I never have to experience it.

PowderBurn1
11-19-2009, 11:23 AM
Here's my question. The way my friends two story house is laid out he has vantage points where he would not be seen by the perp. If they decide to come up his staircase he could fire before the perp could reach him or be noticed by the perp. How would that change things or would it? Does the layout of a house matter when it comes to how you would decide to protect your life and family? Does having a tactical advantage look bad in the eyes of a DA?

a1c
11-19-2009, 11:41 AM
Here's my question. The way my friends two story house is laid out he has vantage points where he would not be seen by the perp. If they decide to come up his staircase he could fire before the perp could reach him or be noticed by the perp. How would that change things or would it? Does the layout of a house matter when it comes to how you would decide to protect your life and family? Does having a tactical advantage look bad in the eyes of a DA?

Every situation is different. What we've discussed so far is essentially a very clear cut situation where an intruder gets into your house and threatens your life. But we all know in real life things are not always that clear cut.

Again, the key is to show that you were fearing for your life. Now if your friend looks like a hobbyist sniper armed with a sidearm, two mags, a hunting knife and a tactical shotgun or AR, and the perp is an unarmed 15 year-old looking for a free iPod, and he empties a 4 shell-mag pump action police 780 into the kid's chest, yes, that might look pretty bad.

We don't know. Every situation is different.

If your friend is so concerned about home defense that he already has identified vantage points, I'd suggest - assuming he hasn't done so - that he also installs a home alarm system, which will deter 99% of potential burglars. That might save him from an unfortunately situation.

Quser.619
11-19-2009, 12:15 PM
First of all, you NEVER "shoot to kill", you shoot to neutralize the threat, nothing more.


I was always trained to aim for center mass & chances are that's what I would do in such a situation, why aim to neutralize when you may not know how many others there might be there or their full intentions. Personally, I'd hope that the sound of a shotgun being loaded would be enough to deter anyone who is in my house.

Personally I fear coming home to find someone there & not being able to get to my gun(s)

Maltese Falcon
11-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Jeesus... Looks like you have to mentally prepare as much as you possibly can for the unthinkable ...and hope you hold it together if it happens.

I am worried that as our economy deteriorates there will be an upswing in evening home invasion type robberies with multiple perps as opposed to the "dark of night" lone burglar. Seconds and availability are crucial.

SkiDevil
11-19-2009, 2:01 PM
To the member who posted the original question: What to do if you shoot and intruder during a Home Defense and you don't have an attorney to call?

First, I will state that I am NOT a lawyer and in no way imparting any form of legal advice. The following are a list of common sense suggestions which, one could hypothetically consider.

If I was an individual California resident and not employed in any form of occupation as a recognized California Law Enforcement Officer or Federal Law Enforcement Agent/ Officer without the benefit of a Police Union/ Protective League, or other immediate form of representation I would consult an attorney/s.

1. Locating a reputable Criminal Defense Attorney does not result in any significant cost. Also, there are Free Legal Clinics which could in all probability provide a list of referrals. Like anything else in life, there are likely not a very large group of Capable Criminal Defense Attorneys in your area. And the really good ones are usually well Known. -Will the hourly rate be low? No, but a good lawyer will cost some money just like anything else in life. At worst you will pay for one hour of fees to consult with such an individual.

2. Obtain training Self-Defense training from a reputable organization, particularly for the weapon which will be employed in the self-defense situation.

3. Do everything humanly possible to avoid this type of situation. It would seem simple enough to say this but the fact is that many situations can be avoided. If one is greatly concerned about the security of their home some steps can be taken to minimize the chances of your becoming a statistic/ victim.

a. An evaluation can be done to harden the security of the residence by the homeowner. OR;

b. A professional security firm/ consultant can be procured.

General items.

Front Door- Should have both a high quality ($50+ locks) door handle/lock AND a Dead Bolt with at LEAST a 3 inch bolt, metal hardware secured with long screws. Also, the front door should be made of a quality material (heavy duty wood construction/or metal). -Most forced entries occur to the front door (are simply kicked-in).

Shrubs/ trees, vegetation- Remove cut back any vegetation that blocks the view to all windows/ doors to the residence. Remove any vegetation that would conceal an adult in the yard areas of the premises.

Lighting -Install motion lights to the front and rear of the residence. Make sure that most obvious entries/ exits to the residence are well lit.

Residence -Install a quality alarm system with motion sensors/ and window switches. Ensure that the alarm company provides adequate alarm monitoring (ie., Brinks, ADT, etc.) services. -Armed response from security personnel is an option available in some areas.

All windows should have some form of locking mechanism IN ADDITION to the standard window lock.

Install (metal) security screen doors at the entries to the residence. -Window bars may be added but to some give the house the look of a prison. Also, window bars may hamper egress in the event of fire.

4. Become acquainted with your neighbors. Neighborhood watch programs have been proven effective in some localities. Even letting your (trusted) neighbors know that you will be out of the area and asking them to pick-up the newspaper from the front door/ mail (or request no delivery at Post Office, etc.) to prevent obvious indicators that residence is empty are prudent steps to take. -Requesting for extra-patrols from the Police/ Sheriff's Dept. may be available as well (may not be possible in some cities).

5. Obtain a dog. Preferably a large dog. Studies have been completed that show many criminals are afraid of dogs and will usually avoid your residence for an easier target.

6. DO NOT advertise the contents of your home. If you work in a vocation where it is obvious that you are armed, have firearms, bring money, or valuables to your domicile, DO NOT ADVERTISE IT. It is no one's business that you are a Policeman, Jeweler, or Regional Manager for Jiffy Lube and count the receipts in the kitchen every Friday. LESS IS MORE.

In addition to the above items education is key. Become educated and learn as much as possible regarding the laws in your locality. Do not rely on others to provide the golden answer. The internet is rife with misinformation, conjecture, and to put it bluntly B**L S**T. Don't take what anyone says, obtain your own information [Not even from the writer of this posting].
Do your own homework.

One should also be cognizant of what type of public statements are made regarding what he/ she would do under circumstances X or Y. Public statements (verbal or written, ie. internet/ written correspondence, etc.) COULD be used against you.

To conclude, it could not be stressed enough that the skill and capacity to employ a firearm in a high stress self-defense encounter is vital. Also, it is essential to know the laws which bound one to using lethal force in your locality (California Penal Code Sections 187-199, Justifiable Homicide). Any individual carrying or using a firearm for self-defense should obtain creditable training.

There are many organizations available but Mr. Ayoob is one of the few who directly supports his students. Massod Ayoob is one of the very few trainers who provides expert legal testimony to any of his students (Lethal Force Institute) who are involved in a self-defense shooting. I have heard of no other private organization/ trainer who openly affords this service. It would also behoove one to consult with an attorney who specializes in criminal defense/ capital cases regarding the specific actions to be taken if involved in a self-defense shooting.

Other Organizations also provide professional firearms training available to the general public including; Gun Site, ITTS, Yavaipi Firearms Academy, Thunder Ranch, Sig Arms Academy, MagPul Dynamics, Front Sight, etc.

An individual should make their own inquiries as to whom or what organization is capable of providing the training which they require. No one organization should be assumed to be superior to the other, make your own inquiries and request references from prior customers/ students, if available.

Lastly, in my opinion, if an individual elects to employ a firearm for self protection and is NOT competent in the use of such a tool then they have no business doing so.

If I should decide to use a gun to protect my residence/ family, then I should have the obligation to know the laws regarding the use of a firearm, laws which pertain to killing another person, and what the consequences for those actions would likely be. Otherwise, I should lock my bedroom door, hide under the bed or in the closet and call 911 and wait for the Police.
Just an opinion.

Regards,
SkiDevil

Reference:

California Penal Code

196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and
those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to
the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other
legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been
rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting
persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or
resisting such arrest.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned
in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide
may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the
circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable
person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of
such fears alone.

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=6642576055+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Cokebottle
11-19-2009, 3:43 PM
I was always trained to aim for center mass & chances are that's what I would do in such a situation, why aim to neutralize when you may not know how many others there might be there or their full intentions. Personally, I'd hope that the sound of a shotgun being loaded would be enough to deter anyone who is in my house.

Personally I fear coming home to find someone there & not being able to get to my gun(s)
Semantics.

I don't care if you are aiming for the head, you don't admit to intentionally attempting to kill another human being. The goal of the shot is to neutralize the threat. There is a high probability that the coroner will remove one, possibly more bodies, but the intent of the shooting is to eliminate the immediate threat to your life or the life of another.

If you brag on forums and to your friends "Shoot to kill, empty the mag then reload", etc... it's not going to look good for you in court.
Those things may have little bearing on a criminal trial where the jury's call must be 12:0, but they will certainly make a difference in the inevitable civil case that will follow where a 5:7 decision can mean the difference between walking and bankruptcy.

KylaGWolf
11-19-2009, 10:55 PM
+1



Thanks all. So far, GMONEY and oaklander have the best advice I can see of.

Yeah I guess the best thing would be to keep my mouth shut until I speak with an attorney... of course 911 first, however, I once saw a training vid on how to deal with an armed home invasion, and during the simulation, the homeowner shot the armed suspects, then he took out his cell phone and called his attorney first. I was confused when I saw that, because I thought you need to call the cops first.

Something else you should think of is writing out a letter of what kind of training your have (if any) in what circumstances you would defend yourself. Then mail the letter to yourself certified mail. Then take that letter and lock it in a lock box unopened. Then if for any reason you ever do have to shoot someone in Self Defense you can use that letter to show your intent in such a situation.

gunsmith
11-19-2009, 11:35 PM
ok, i read untill the 4th page...some good advice .... some terrible.
YOU NEVER SHOOT TO KILL .. NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!
you shoot to stop, personally I feel people stop better with two in the chest and one in the head.
you are trying to stop the perp, you are not trying to kill anyone.
"shoot to kill" is simply a stupid term invented by a liberal press that is terrified of knowing anything about guns.
anytime you shoot someone it is deadly force.

blackrifle242
11-20-2009, 12:35 AM
I don't think I could ever put my freedom in the hands of a public defender. These guys deal with crap all day and probably have little to no experience in SD cases. I am curious how many SD cases actually see a court room.

CABilly
11-20-2009, 3:52 AM
I would also recommend that if the suspected robber/assailant is still alive that you don't say anything to him/her/them other than that you're placing them under citizen's arrest for suspicion of (B&E, robbery, assault, whatever). Use handcuffs if you have them and can safely apply them, then attempt first aid until help arrives. Whatever you do, don't stand over them with your weapon and vent your rage/fear/anxiety.

If you can afford it, consider keeping a lawyer you trust on retainer JIC. I'm not sure how much good one of those pre-paid legal services would be, but it's got to be better than nothing.

Cokebottle
11-20-2009, 4:02 AM
I've thought this over and over regarding detainment, and keep coming back to the conclusion that cuffing the perp may lead to charges of false imprisonment if for some reason he is found not guilty.

I agree... don't vent, and for God's sake, don't apologize, but he does need to be held at gunpoint until the police arrive unless he is physically unable to continue the attack (and you are 100% confident of that, it's easy to "play dead" or disabled). If he decides to flee, you can't shoot him, and I'd question the wisdom of attempting to physically restrain him since he may make a move for your gun (and your strong hand, or BOTH hands are going to be busy trying to stop him from fleeing).
Same with cuffing. As a civilian, I'm not going to want to get close enough for him to spit on me... much less make a grab for my gun, and how am I going to cuff him while holding a gun on him?
I'm not going to ask my wife to cuff him. No, I'd stand as far away as practical and cover him until the police arrive.


Yes, I called him a "perp"... he's not a suspect, you KNOW he's guilty, "suspect" is a legal term that the PD and court must use because of the presumption of innocence.

CABilly
11-20-2009, 4:38 AM
I've thought this over and over regarding detainment, and keep coming back to the conclusion that cuffing the perp may lead to charges of false imprisonment if for some reason he is found not guilty.

I agree... don't vent, and for God's sake, don't apologize, but he does need to be held at gunpoint until the police arrive unless he is physically unable to continue the attack (and you are 100% confident of that, it's easy to "play dead" or disabled). If he decides to flee, you can't shoot him, and I'd question the wisdom of attempting to physically restrain him since he may make a move for your gun (and your strong hand, or BOTH hands are going to be busy trying to stop him from fleeing).
Same with cuffing. As a civilian, I'm not going to want to get close enough for him to spit on me... much less make a grab for my gun, and how am I going to cuff him while holding a gun on him?
I'm not going to ask my wife to cuff him. No, I'd stand as far away as practical and cover him until the police arrive.


Yes, I called him a "perp"... he's not a suspect, you KNOW he's guilty, "suspect" is a legal term that the PD and court must use because of the presumption of innocence.


Different for me, I share a house with roommates and there is another adult male* who would be able to apply handcuffs while myself or others held the suspects at gunpoint. B&E, (attempted) robbery, assault, etc are all arrestable offenses so a citizen's arrest seems apropriate, police on the way will be sure to arrest so I don't see it as anything of a problem - you can't shoot again if they're only injured and trying to flee. I see the citizen's arrest as a CYA measure, since simply holding at gunpoint in your home seems like better grounds for a false imprisonment claim. A simple statement like, "Don't move, I'm placing you under citizen's arrest for (xxx)." When the police arrive tell them to arrest the person/s.

Further, police will cuff a dead/dying suspect before administering 1st aid. If anything, it illustrates your reasonable fear of their potential danger, even while wounded and eliminates the claim that you did nothing but watch someone bleed out on your floor.


*Not saying a female would be incapable of or unsuited to perform either task. Knowing the two I live with, however, it would never happen!


[EDIT] On second thought, citizens arrest might just open up a whole can of worms that could be avoided by playing the scared/shocked citizen role. Realistically, that's probably where I'd wind up anyways. You can't quite practice or train for these types of scenarios. Hopefully I'll never have to find out how I'd truly react.

a1c
11-20-2009, 7:34 AM
I don't think I could ever put my freedom in the hands of a public defender. These guys deal with crap all day and probably have little to no experience in SD cases. I am curious how many SD cases actually see a court room.

You're assuming that the homeowner or tenant is charged at all when that happens. Unless you shoot someone running away or neutralize the guy and then proceed to beat him up, if it's self defense, it's unlikely you'll get charged at all. Cases were you see that happen usually involve something ugly.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-20-2009, 7:49 AM
Great opening point, howevr when asked why you shot ANYONE;
"I was scared for my life. He kept moving, so I kept shooting. I was in mortal fear."
Luckily I'm a girl and can turn on the waterworks as easily as a light switch.


I'll bet you don't get any speeding tickets either. No fair!

(J/K)

The Raisuli

P.S. To whomever mentioned the SAS guy. That was way funny!

erik
11-20-2009, 10:03 AM
Do NOT attempt first aid!

It is a losing situation:
1. you can end up putting him back in the fight. It looks *really* bad: shooting, helping, shooting again.
2. if he dies, it could potentially be claimed that you used your medical knowledge to kill him. Good Samaritan laws don't protect you here.

WeekendWarrior
11-20-2009, 12:16 PM
WWRTW

steadyrock
11-20-2009, 1:50 PM
Lots of interesting information here. A1C, and a few others, thanks for what appear to be well thought out and informative replies. Certainly worth following up on and doing my own homework based on the direction(s) I have been pointed.

That said: 85 replies and only one mention of the word "domicile"? :rofl2:

ALSystems
11-21-2009, 10:43 AM
Call 911, tell them you shot a home intruder in self defense, give them no other information until you talk to a lawyer. Plan on going to jail while they figure out what happened and you wait for an attorney.
Good Advice. :patriot:
If you have a chance, lock up and remove your other guns/gun related stuff, gun magazines, etc. from your front room before the police arrive. You don't want the official police report making you look like a certified gun nut. I'm not sure if the police would routinely confiscate all visible guns as "evidence" in a case like this. If so, it would be really hard or expensive to get them back. :rolleyes:

hawk81
11-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Remember, dead man tells no tales. So make sure you kill the home intruder.

hawk81
11-21-2009, 11:22 AM
It does not matter what the cops think of you, they are not the ones who will ultimately decide if you are guilty or innocent. It is best to just remain silent and get a lawyer asap. Cops are not your friends, especially in this screwed up state.



Well I'm no lawyer either, if we're going to talk about DAs, I married one, and I count quite a few in different CA counties as my friends. Hell, they might know your cousin.

Their advice is not as clear cut on the matter. It meets that of what LEOs have already mentioned in here. When the police arrives: gives them the bare facts. They are not going to expect a detailed story. They just need to know the basic timeline, who shot whom, where, how many times, where your firearm is. You were fearing for your life - imprint that sentence in your brains until it comes out naturally Now if that is true, no problem. That's it. The cops are not going to expect a play-by-play. You'll be shaken and probably a mess.

The cops are not in the business of screwing you. But they're naturally suspicious. They're trained to be. If you clam up and ask for a lawyer right away without even telling them anything of what happened, you are going to look VERY suspicious. They're going to start wondering what kind of history there might be between the intruder and you. They're going to look for other firearms, drugs, anything suspicious or out of place. They're going to think this might be a deal of some sort gone bad. Or a dispute about a woman (or a man, not that there's anything wrong with that :D ). If you've got empty bottles of liquor or wine on your kitchen counter because you had some friends over earlier or a nice dinner, then that's going to go in the report too. And so on.

If the police starts asking for more details, just ask them politely if you can do that later, and that you'll be at their disposal the next day. Now they might very well take you away anyway depending on the circumstances, but that's procedure, nothing personal. But if you lawyered up right away, the cops are for sure going to treat you just like any random alleged criminal they pick up off the street.

Now enough with the assumption that all California DAs are out to get the gun-owning public. The DAs I know are conservative, liberal or libertarian. Some of them are hunters, some of them are NRA members, and even the ones in SF don't necessarily hate guns or gun owners. It's ridiculous to assume that you're automatically going to be charged if you shoot an intruder. That's just not true.

The key is in showing the intruder was a danger and threatening you. Don't go shoot burglars who are breaking into your garage in your backyard, just stay inside and call 911. Don't shoot in the back a burglar who's running away from your front yard - this might go well in Texas, but not here, deal with it. As long as the guy was inside your house or on your property and that you were fearing for your life, you will be fine and no charges are likely to be brought against you. If you find recent stories of people who got charged for shooting someone who broke into their homes, I want to see them, because I'd bet there was more to them than a burglary gone wrong.

By the way, recent case in my county, which gathered some national news, the Renato Hugues case: guy breaks into a pot grower's home with two accomplices. They beat up the owner's kid badly. The owner shoots two of the intruders dead. The remaining living intruder was charged with the murder of his 2 accomplices under a little-used California law. The murder convictions didn't stick with the jury though, but the intruder was still convicted for several felonies. The owner was never charged. Now the irony is that he was no white knight either, and recently got charged with murder in another case. :rolleyes:

a1c
11-21-2009, 2:24 PM
It does not matter what the cops think of you, they are not the ones who will ultimately decide if you are guilty or innocent. It is best to just remain silent and get a lawyer asap. Cops are not your friends, especially in this screwed up state.

Let's lay off the generalizations. Plenty of cops here come from out-of-state, and plenty of them are 2A and castle law-friendly. It's ridiculous to make such blanket statements about California LEOs.

Cops are not the ones deciding if you're guilty or innocent, but remember that they're the ones writing the report that will end up on the DA's desk (and testifying in court if the case gets there).

If they see something that smells funny, you might end up in more trouble than if you had just given the basic and yes/no answers they would need for their prelim. And if you refuse to open your mouth until your lawyer shows up, you need to realize you will most likely end up handcuffed and taken in custody. The refusal to cooperate is always seen as a presumption of guilt.

So if you're fine with the concept, go ahead and clam up. But you won't get to stay with your family that night, unless your lawyer lives down the street and gets there right away.

Meplat
11-22-2009, 2:15 PM
That is what my lawyer said. When I got my CCW some on this forum advised that CCW holders have a good criminal defense attorney on retainer. When I asked my lawyer (family friend who handles wills, trusts, family law) how much it would cost to 'retain' such a lawyer, she said: "Probably around $5,000 a year, but, if you have enough sense to clam up and not say ANEY THING and then call me, I can get you out and we can worry about hocking the house and getting the right representation for you later.

Well, I am a lawyer. Please see my post above. No bare facts, no answering questions. Clam the f**k up. It does not matter how you "appear" to the arresting officers. Your lawyer will tell the story to the prosecutor for you.

Meplat
11-22-2009, 2:22 PM
I have a safe with plenty of extra ordinance in it. If your wife does not have the combination and the training to defend her children if you are not around you have not done your job as a father. Would you rather leave her alone for one night, or ten years?

Finally got a call back from a friend of mine, SGT at RSO.

He says if you say nothing... You are definately going to jail that night, leaving your family home by themselves to fend for themselves, while you wait for a lawyer at the station. At 1 am, you may be there a while. Police will always assume the worst, and that means you are a suspect, not a victim. Innocent until proven guilty my *****.

Yes, I agree that you dont want to incriminate yourself by saying something stupid, but by giving one to two word answers, yes, no, etc. truthfully, and honestly, he said you probably wont even be arrested that night, if everything appears to be legit and on the up and up.

I would never leave my wife and infant son alone, to face possible recourse by the robbers associates who may be in the bushes watching... Just my 2 cents.

Dr Rockso
11-22-2009, 2:35 PM
Judge: Why did you shoot that man 10 times?
Well your Honor, Garands take a bit of time to reload and I could only get two more off before he hit the ground.

Meplat
11-22-2009, 2:46 PM
It's simple really. Do not use deadly force against another unless you are in actual fear of injury to your person or that of others. After that shut the **** up until you talk to a good lawyer. 911 does not need to know anything except your address and what you need (ambulance & police), SHUT THE **** UP) LE would love for you to make their job easier, but they only have the rest of their shift to worry about, you have the rest of your life to worry about.

If you use the law enforcement St. Op. Pro. you will keep shooting until the threat stops moving. You have no business breaking off the engagement to call 911 until the threat is neutralized. At that point it should be safe to put down your gun and meet officers, obviously unarmed. A drivers license should establish that you are the resident, no dialog needed.



This issue is making my palms sweaty...

I pray that I never have to experience it.

Meplat
11-22-2009, 2:54 PM
Locked case in the car will take care of that. Personally I would call the police and let them clear the house unless I thought wife and or kids should be home, then I'm going in, armed or not.



I was always trained to aim for center mass & chances are that's what I would do in such a situation, why aim to neutralize when you may not know how many others there might be there or their full intentions. Personally, I'd hope that the sound of a shotgun being loaded would be enough to deter anyone who is in my house.

Personally I fear coming home to find someone there & not being able to get to my gun(s)

inbox485
11-24-2009, 7:32 AM
Everyone has something to say on the matter. My points are:
- Claming up makes you look guilty, blabbing on and changing your story as your mind clears will be worse.
- "He attacked me. I thought I was about to die. I defended myself. I'd like to press charges." Only say it if it is true and if you just shot somebody it had better be.
- When questioned, redirect by asking "how this thing works out?" and if witnesses (spouse, kids, neighbors, etc) have been interviewed.
- Ask who decides if you get arrested. If it is automatic, then button up until you talk with a lawyer. If is is a supervisors discretion, ask to be questioned directly by the supervisor.
- Don't try to recall the details of what happened. Your brain just spent 100% of its capacity focusing on survival, and about 0% on recording accurate memories. Its in there but will take days or even weeks for your subconscious to even attempt to sort it out. If pressed for details say that your head is in a fog and you need to calm down a bit before you can articulate yourself. Your memory of a traumatic event 5 minutes ago will always contradict what your memory will be in a week and it is likely that neither will be entirely accurate. Consider keeping a voice recorder running. PITA for sure, but they don't lie and their memories don't change with time.
- Every time I've read the stories about SD shooters getting crucified legally, the shooter was the one that supplied both wood and nails.

inbox485
11-24-2009, 7:39 AM
Locked case in the car will take care of that. Personally I would call the police and let them clear the house unless I thought wife and or kids should be home, then I'm going in, armed or not.

I carry at home. Whether or not I am carrying elsewhere, I have a IWB holster and mag pouch on, and my gun at least locked up nearby. I walk in my door loaded and holstered. If I knew a guy was in the house and my wife was not, I'd let police deal with it. If I walk into a surprise or I know my wife is also inside, I'm good to go.

inbox485
11-24-2009, 7:46 AM
2. if he dies, it could potentially be claimed that you used your medical knowledge to kill him. Good Samaritan laws don't protect you here.

Do you have any CA specific literature to point to on this. I've looked but couldn't find anything. I'm asking since I've heard this and the exact opposite.

a1c
11-24-2009, 8:01 AM
Do you have any CA specific literature to point to on this. I've looked but couldn't find anything. I'm asking since I've heard this and the exact opposite.

I think he's talking about a civil lawsuit (on the part of the family, I suppose).

inbox485
11-24-2009, 8:50 AM
I think he's talking about a civil lawsuit (on the part of the family, I suppose).

I've heard both sides to that on civil and criminal aspects, but haven't been able to find statutory clauses, case rulings, legal oppinions, or even anecdotes on the matter. I would love to read up on the topic if anybody has anything.

7x57
11-24-2009, 11:00 AM
I certainly haven't heard of a malicious prosecution of a homeowner acting in self defense during a home invasion in this state but I've heard about plenty of DA's declining to prosecute in cases involving crooks killing crooks.


I have heard from an LAPD detective and an LA county ADA (I think it was) that even in that anti-gun citadel malicious prosecutions are very rare if it's obviously a self-defense shooting. It seems that in your own home with no weird color to the case you can trust the criminal justice system to behave itself.

Of course, you may first spend a couple of hours behind bars before they release you on bail while the paperwork goes to the DA's office, and you can be sued within an inch of your life in civil court. The former is simply how the system works, the latter is the only part of Castle Doctrine we don't have (not being liable in civil court if there is no criminal conviction).

In better places LE discretion tends to be...different. For you poor enslaved city boys, here is how we do it in small Western towns:

You: glad you got here so quickly, Bob (you know the sheriff by first name, he was in school with your dad). How did you make it in only forty-five minutes?

Sheriff: I was already over at the Hansen place--Mel come home drunk again and Cheryl locked him in the barn until he sobered up. <shakes head> That's too good a woman to put up with him.

You: she doesn't usually need any help.

Sheriff: huh? Naw, he called on his cell phone 'cuz she give him the prettiest shiner you ever saw before she locked him up. I told him next time he tries to slap her and then calls me I'm going to blacken the other one once she's good and finished with him...so look, I'm going to have to ask you to wait to see your sister for a few days (like everyone else in town,he knows you were planning a trip) while we sort out the paperwork. I'll come by Toby's (the cafe) in the morning while you're getting coffee and get your statement. For some reason Terry (you and he both know the county DA by first name) likes to be reminded in writing why a man would shoot a meth head who broke into his house with a knife, just in case he forgets...hey, Tom, don't forget to read Sam (you and he both know the name of the meth head who broke in, he's been in and out of trouble for years since he dropped out of high school) his rights, you hear? I hear tell he's got some even when he's all meth'd up in a house he got no business being in...anyway, sorry about them carpets.

You: well, they were old anyway. Lisa (Sam's mom, whom you don't know but know of) is gonna take this hard, though.

Sheriff: sure enough, but I told her years ago that boy is going to break into the wrong house when someone is still home if he don't straighten out. If that weasel makes it she'll be happy you didn't finish the job, but just 'twixt you and me that just means somebody else is going to have to do it right next time. That boy turned out plumb bad, and he's gonna hurt someone real bad if he don't get killed first.

You: um, can I have my gun back before you leave? It's kind of sentimental.

Sheriff: Terry gets testy if I don't take the gun for "evidence." I guess we might have to prove it's you that deserves the medal...really nice Colt, by the way. It'll be in my office safe, I don't want the deputies to get careless and bang it up.

You: yeah, uncle Fester gave it to me before he passed away.

Sheriff: poor old Fester'd be right proud that you used it. Say, you got something in case those worthless friends of his come by askin' why you shot their buddy, right? If you don't, I can loan you my backup for a few days.

You: nah, I've got the 12-gauge and the .270 in the truck, I just didn't want to have to patch buckshot holes when it's twenty below outside.

Sheriff: OK, but just between you and me you ought to use the shotgun or practice out back so next time you'll finish the job. Come by the station and I'll get you a box of that ammo we buy, it makes bigger holes than what Tru-Value (the only hardware store in town) has. Now one of the deputies is going to have to sleep at the jail once doc Skinner patches him up, and mayor Larsen don't like it when I have to pay overtime.

:D

Moral: community policing works when it's an actual community, not a buzzword.

7x57

Roadrunner
11-24-2009, 11:07 AM
One thing to make sure of is the criminal is incapable of telling his side of the story. Let the family try and sue, I doubt an attorney would take their case unless he likes losing.

Cokebottle
11-24-2009, 11:14 AM
Hey 7x... what town did you say this was? ;)

7x57
11-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Hey 7x... what town did you say this was? ;)

About 90% of the towns in the rural West, basically.

A retired LASD deputy told me that where he retired in Wyoming the sheriff told him that if he has trouble at night to just take care of it himself and they'd be by to clean up the mess in the morning, because the sheriff's office is closed at night.

7x57

CSACANNONEER
11-24-2009, 11:34 AM
Attornies are expensive. It would be cheaper to call a rental yard and rent a back hoe and start digging a hole for the pool you've always wanted.

Glock22Fan
11-24-2009, 12:19 PM
What to do If you shoot an intruder during HD and you don't have an attorney to call?

I suggest that you really kick yourself very hard for not putting the name of your nearest gun-friendly lawyer in your wallet and, maybe, cellphone.

I emailed Chuck Michel's office and they sent me some nice cards, and also "do not search without permission" stickers to put on my gun safe or wherever.

Doesn't cost anything to have a lawyer's phone number: you don't have to pay them a retainer for that privilege.

I don't see the point, in fact, in paying them a retainer for this sort of thing. By the time it happens, if it happens, they'll have pretty well forgotten you and the only things that will matter are your current contact details, the current circumstances and whether you have a credit card.

inbox485
11-24-2009, 12:56 PM
In better places LE discretion tends to be...different. For you poor enslaved city boys, here is how we do it in small Western towns:

[SNIP]

7x57

Nice read. Thanks.

a1c
11-24-2009, 1:26 PM
Nice write up, 7x57. Sounds like my adopted town!

stagman
11-24-2009, 4:32 PM
If your wife does not have the combination and the training to defend her children if you are not around you have not done your job as a father.

Sir, I must respectfully disagree with you. And I must add that I am a bit offended by your statement.

My wife doesnt want access to our guns. She does not have, nor will she ever have the millitary weapons training, stress management skills, tactical training or hunting experience that I have received nor does she want it. That is what she has me for. By her own admission, giving her access to our guns would be like giving a five year old car keys. She would shoot our neighbors dog for barking at 2 am, or the UPS guy for God sake!

We are working on it, but she has a long way to go before she feels comfortable enough with guns to be able to use one to take a life. (Liberal upbringing.)

So by your account, I am a deadbeat dad? WOW.

tyrist
11-24-2009, 4:40 PM
If it's a righteous shooting you have very little to fear from the police. I am aware of a case where the body was dumped and the shooter was a drug dealer. They only filed for the drug sales and unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. A drug dealer killed a person who was trying to rob him and dumped the body yet was not even filed on for the homicide.

Cokebottle
11-24-2009, 4:49 PM
We are working on it, but she has a long way to go before she feels comfortable enough with guns to be able to use one to take a life. (Liberal upbringing.)
That's the key. You are working on it.
I don't think anybody that wasn't raised in a hunting or military family has that as an ingrained attitude.
At this point, it sounds like she's at either of the 2 extremes depending on the situation.... shoot first and ask questions later, or hesitate and become an armed (or disarmed) victim of a shooting.

I'm not worried about my wife getting a little heavy on the PMS and putting a slug in my head, and we don't have any kids left, so any time I'm home, the gun is unlocked and available... but if SHTF, she's not going to be running to grab it (yet).
We're also working on it... need to pin down a gun that fits her ergonomic needs (looks like the Ruger .38sp is ideal) and then lock her up in the range ;)

Glock22Fan
11-24-2009, 4:50 PM
Well, even a felon is allowed a firearm at the point of needing it for self-defense. Maybe some innocent non-felon passed it to him just in time :D

Mulay El Raisuli
11-25-2009, 7:29 AM
Moral: community policing works when it's an actual community, not a buzzword.

7x57


You mean, it takes a village? :)

The Raisuli

SimpleCountryActuary
11-25-2009, 8:05 PM
You mean, it takes a village? :)

The Raisuli

Yes, like in Northfield, MN on 9/7/1876 when the James and Younger Gang were shot to bacon bits.

Hmmm. I seem to be hungry again. ;)

scrat
11-25-2009, 8:26 PM
"911, what service do you require?"

"Coroner" ;)

.........................
or:

911, what service do you require?

uh, I just shot someone

Is he dead?

BANG!

He is now.......


lmfao hhahahahah

highpowermatch
11-26-2009, 3:25 PM
At front sight training they say call 911 ask for an ambulance and the police. Theory being that if the perp or family tried to sue in civil court you appear to have compassion and didn't have the intent to kill just stop the perp from causing harm to you and your family. They also say to never shoot the perp in the head until you have put two in the chest first. Two reasons, first not as easy of target then the chest and also this can be considered execution and might not serve well in Civil Court

Meplat
11-26-2009, 7:22 PM
Sir, I must respectfully disagree with you. And I must add that I am a bit offended by your statement.

My wife doesnt want access to our guns. She does not have, nor will she ever have the millitary weapons training, stress management skills, tactical training or hunting experience that I have received nor does she want it. That is what she has me for. By her own admission, giving her access to our guns would be like giving a five year old car keys. She would shoot our neighbors dog for barking at 2 am, or the UPS guy for God sake!

We are working on it, but she has a long way to go before she feels comfortable enough with guns to be able to use one to take a life. (Liberal upbringing.)

So by your account, I am a deadbeat dad? WOW.

But you are working on it. That gives you a pass. I feel your pain man!

B Strong
11-27-2009, 6:11 AM
Call 911 right away? Call a lawyer that is not 'yours' yet? I heard that the best thing to do is to call an attorney after a shooting, but what if you don't have one? If the intruder you shot is severely wounded, but not dead yet, could you be liable for his death (if he dies) because you did not call 911 right away?

Keep your mouth shut other than identifying yourself, and get a competent attorney ASAP - you will most likely be taken into custody, and you have to keep a cool head and a closed mouth.

Start doing your homework now, maybe drop a little coin on an attorney now rather than later.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-27-2009, 7:00 AM
Yes, like in Northfield, MN on 9/7/1876 when the James and Younger Gang were shot to bacon bits.


Exactly!


Hmmm. I seem to be hungry again. ;)


Troubling! :)

The Raisuli

greg36f
11-27-2009, 5:53 PM
Keep your mouth shut other than identifying yourself, and get a competent attorney ASAP - you will most likely be taken into custody, and you have to keep a cool head and a closed mouth.

Start doing your homework now, maybe drop a little coin on an attorney now rather than later.


Jeeezzzzz…The paranoia that I see here is startling….what’s next…….”be careful because “THEY” are hovering above your house with silent black helicopters……..It’s your house, it’s your gun, the guy broke into your occupied house with criminal intent………What’s the big deal,,,,It was a righteous shoot!!!!!!

Your gonna call a lawyer first? That’s gonna look great in the civil trial when the sh*% heads family lawyer points out that the bad guy, “Sorry, bible delivery person who walked into the wrong house” would have lived if you called 911 faster………

Then you are going to call 911 and say, “someone shot somebody for some unknown reason in a house that may or may not be mine, come quick”……Then the police get there and you clam up and say nothing, except “I want my lawyer”………Then you are shocked when you get treated like a suspect…….

You just shot someone. You are responsible for your actions……..Stop hiding behind paranoia………IT WAS A GOOD SHOOT!!!!!! You are the victim of a break in and attempted assault….Act like it…..That's how you are expected to act.

Most if not all cops that show up are gonna be, “good shooting, this guy was a sh*& head that we have dealt with a thousand times”.

Fr those of you that are going to call me an idealist, I would challenge you to find a legitimate time where a homeowner was prosecuted for shooting an intruder in his own home……and I don’t mean the BS ones where it was a dope deal that went bad or a domestic dispute between a couple of crankers…….

You may not consider the police “your friend”, but there is not reason to consider them the enemy……

Aptos
11-27-2009, 8:07 PM
Don't talk to the Police!

Watch this video by a law professor to hear why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

IrishPirate
11-27-2009, 8:11 PM
of course call 911! most importantly DO NOT SAY A WORD TO THE POLICE! Only that you were in fear of your life! Let them take you to jail if they have to but SAY NOTHING without an attorney!

+1000
stand him up and shoot him in the leg too so you can say that was your first shot and the one that killed him came when he decided to keep coming after you to try to kill you......WHOA, WHOA, I'M JUST KIDDING.....DONT DO THAT, IT WAS JUST A JOKE. WE'RE ALL THINKING IT, JUST NOT SAYING IT (FOR GOOD REASON). FOLLOW THE LAW AND DEFEND YOURSELF THE RIGHT WAY THEN CALL THE COPS.

larryratcliff
11-27-2009, 9:14 PM
LEO's word is meaningless. Keep your mouth shut and talk to your attorney. Doesn't matter how justified it is. LEO's job is not to help you understand the law or prevent you from breaking it. It is to arrest, charge and let the court sort it out. If you want to understand the law read up or consult a lawyer.

Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

Very interesting videos!

nitrofc
11-27-2009, 9:23 PM
Every situation is different. What we've discussed so far is essentially a very clear cut situation where an intruder gets into your house and threatens your life. But we all know in real life things are not always that clear cut.

Again, the key is to show that you were fearing for your life. Now if your friend looks like a hobbyist sniper armed with a sidearm, two mags, a hunting knife and a tactical shotgun or AR, and the perp is an unarmed 15 year-old looking for a free iPod, and he empties a 4 shell-mag pump action police 780 into the kid's chest, yes, that might look pretty bad.

We don't know. Every situation is different.

If your friend is so concerned about home defense that he already has identified vantage points, I'd suggest - assuming he hasn't done so - that he also installs a home alarm system, which will deter 99% of potential burglars. That might save him from an unfortunately situation.

"assuming he hasn't done so - that he also installs a home alarm system, which will deter 99% of potential burglars."

Bingo....that and two good dogs. I like Akita's, some like Dobies or Rot's.
But, If the BG's are that hell bent on pushing past through all that and still barge in.....then you do what you have to do. The Neighbors should hear the dogs & the Alarm Co. can see the alarm triggered. The evidence started before the invasion occured. Follow the 5 steps......and try and keep a cool head.

WALDSCHRAT
11-27-2009, 10:41 PM
Call 911 and keep in mind that the chick wants complete control of the conversation; she'll ask the questions and you provide the answers. Tell her that there is an intruder in your home.
She will then ask for pertinent info (your name, address, etc.). Then she will want to know where the intruder is, where you are, intruder description, who else is in the house.
After all that is done, tell her to send an ambulance too. As far as rendering first aid; you are not a doctor/medic (I'm assuming) and the suspect could be HIV positive. You want as much time to elapse between the time that you shoot him and the time that the ambulance arrives. You want as much blood loss as possible in order to expedite a drop in blood pressure and the suspect going into shock. You also want to cover yourself legally, thus the 911 call.
The legal bottom line: If you shoot someone, you want them dead. You don't want some POS in the prison legal library all day, everyday, building a case against you with his ACLU provided, Pro Bono lawyer representing him.
You could also enter 'non-emergency dispatch' into your speed dialer and just explain later that the emotional trauma brought on by the home invasion caused you to hit the wrong 'call the police' button on your phone. You then were not paying close attention to the elaborate instructions and just assumed that you were put on hold for a reason (lots of calls to the police; dispatcher real busy).

tonyl
12-12-2009, 10:29 PM
Thanks for the thread since this counters to what I would had done. Most if not all the threads suggest to call a lawyer immediately. Is there any recommended Calgunner friendly laywers so I may keep the list in case?

Thanks,
tony

Richie Rich
12-13-2009, 8:25 AM
Some very good advice in this thread.

One thing I have always wondered is if you are ever involved in a self defense shooting at your home is will the police ask/expect/demand access to your safe and take the contents of it as "evidence"?

Obviously they will take the firearm you used in self defense, but is it SOP to remove any and all weapons from the crime scene?

Timberwolf
12-13-2009, 8:35 AM
pray this thread never falls into the hands of a young ADA after what would otherwise have been a justifiable homicide.

Cokebottle
12-13-2009, 10:24 AM
One thing I have always wondered is if you are ever involved in a self defense shooting at your home is will the police ask/expect/demand access to your safe and take the contents of it as "evidence"?
There's no telling what some cops "will" do.
Legally, unless it is a domestic violence issue, they have no legal grounds to search the home for any reason other than to ensure that there are no other intruders hiding out.

They will most likely take the weapon(s) used into custody, as well as the magazine(s) and ammo used. They have no right to confiscate any weapons or ammo not used in the shooting.
I've also read that it is a good idea to keep 4-5 rounds and the box that personal-defense ammo came in for verification of the type of ammo used and for ballistics tests (you used a JPH that is now unrecognizable, furnishing the box and samples confirms that you didn't use "cop killers", or hand loads).