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jdberger
11-17-2009, 11:16 AM
More "research" from our friends at the Violence Policy Center. (http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm)

According to their tally, 85 people have been killed by CCW holders in the last "few years".

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/odometers%20nov%202009.gif

Of course, if you pay attention, many of the "killings" were likely self defense. They also count suicides as "killing".

For the uninitiated, the VPC is an anti-gun organization based in Washington, DC. The head of VPC has the unusual distinction of being one of the few 01 FFL holders in the District.

In the early '90s, VPC's Josh Sugarman was responsible for exploiting

"...the public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons [sic] -- anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun..."


VPC has authored modern masterpieces of junk scholarship like:



Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders--An Analysis of News Reports, May 2007 to April 2009

Indicted: Types of Firearms and Methods of Gun Trafficking from the United States to Mexico as Revealed in U.S. Court Documents

Iron River: Gun Violence and Illegal Firearms Trafficking on the U.S.-Mexico Border

“Big Boomers"—Rifle Power Designed Into Handguns

An Analysis of the Decline in Gun Dealers: 1994 to 2007

Drive-By America

A Shrinking Minority: The Continuing Decline of Gun Ownership in America

Clear and Present Danger: National Security Experts Warn About the Danger of Unrestricted Sales of 50 Caliber Anti-Armor Sniper Rifles to Civilians

Safe at Home: How D.C.'s Gun Laws Save Children's Lives

The Threat Posed to Helicopters By 50 Caliber Anti-Armor Sniper Rifles

United States of Assault Weapons: Gunmakers Evading the Federal Assault Weapons Ban

Vest Buster: The .500 Smith & Wesson Magnum—The Gun Industry's Latest Challenge to Law Enforcement Body Armor

A Further Examination of Data Contained in the Study On Target Regarding Effects of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban

Really Big Guns, Even Bigger Lies

Illinois: Land of Post-Ban Assault Weapons

Bullet Hoses: Semiautomatic Assault Weapons—What Are They? What's So Bad About Them?

"Officer Down"—Assault Weapons and the War on Law Enforcement

"Just Like Bird Hunting" - The Threat to Civil Aviation From 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles

Credit Card Armies: Firearms and Training for Terror in the United States

Sitting Ducks: The Threat to the Chemical and Refinery Industry From 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles

License to Kill IV: More Guns, More Crime

From the Gun War to the Culture War: How the NRA Has Become the Pillar of the Right (Violence Prevention Campaign)

"A .22 For Christmas"—How the Gun Industry Designs and Markets Firearms for Children and Youth

Unintended Consequences: Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice For Self-Defense

Voting From the Rooftops: How the Gun Industry Armed Osama bin Laden, Other Foreign and Domestic Terrorists, and Common Criminals With 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles

Criminal Use of 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles - Fact Sheet
Poisonous Pastime: The Health Risks of Shooting Ranges and Lead to Children, Families and the Environment

Every Handgun is Aimed at You: The Case for Banning Handguns

Closing the Gun Show Loophole: Principles for Effective Legislation

License to Kill III: The Texas Concealed Handgun Law's Legacy of Crime and Violence

Pocket Rockets: The Gun Industry's Sale of Increased Firepower

Guns for Felons: How the NRA Works to Rearm Criminals

Unsafe in Any Hands: Why America Needs to Ban Handguns

One Shot, One Kill: Civilian Sales of Military Sniper Rifles

Start 'Em Young: Recruitment of Kids to the Gun Culture

License to Kill, and Kidnap, and Rape, and Drive Drunk...

Making a Killing: The Business of Guns in America

Paper Tiger?—Will the Brady Law Work After Instant Check? - Revised Edition

Killer Clips: Gun Industry Ads for High-Capacity Magazines That Skirt the Assault Weapons Ban

Target America: Can the Flood of Foreign Assault Weapons be Stopped?
March 1998
Joe Camel with Feathers: How the NRA with Gun and Tobacco Industry Dollars Uses its Eddie Eagle Program to Market Guns to Kids
Gun Shows in America: Tupperware® Parties for Criminals

NRA Family Values: The Racism, Sexism, Legal Woes, and Gun Industry Ties of the National Rifle Association's Board of Directors

Concealed Carry: The Criminal's Companion

Cop Killers: Assault Weapon Attacks on America's Police

Phantom Ammo: The Advent of Caseless Ammunition

More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations: A Study of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers in America

Assault Weapons and Accessories in America

thempopresense
11-17-2009, 11:24 AM
If it doesn't say why they were killed, it's a skewed statistic. Also, How many people are killed by Non-CCW Holders, How many Police officers die by Non-CCW holders.

M1A Rifleman
11-17-2009, 11:41 AM
"Nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot" - Except, VPC does not beleive in self-defense so ANYONE shot by a CCW holder = BAD. :rolleyes:

bulgron
11-17-2009, 11:41 AM
It also doesn't say if the CCW holders that killed those eight police officers killed them with the guns they were licensed to carry. Or with any gun at all, for that matter. Ditto, the private citizens killed by a CCW holder.

If a surgeon who has a CCW accidentally kills a patient on his operating table, does that killing make this list?

jdberger
11-17-2009, 11:52 AM
It also doesn't say if the CCW holders that killed those eight police officers killed them with the guns they were licensed to carry. Or with any gun at all, for that matter. Ditto, the private citizens killed by a CCW holder.

If a surgeon who has a CCW accidentally kills a patient on his operating table, does that killing make this list?

Yes.

There's a case in there where someone strangled another person.

ldivinag
11-17-2009, 11:57 AM
where's the numbers for TOTAL PEOPLE KILLED BY CARS...

Casey
11-17-2009, 12:15 PM
Who give a rats ***? Over 42,000 / 45,000 people die in their car every year. That's 270,000 in the last "few" years and I don't see anyone getting upset by that number or how violently they died.

jester
11-17-2009, 12:36 PM
Isn't VPC based in ATL?

pnkssbtz
11-17-2009, 12:38 PM
Who give a rats ***? Over 42,000 / 45,000 people die in their car every year. That's 270,000 in the last "few" years and I don't see anyone getting upset by that number or how violently they died.Or the fact that doctor's kill over 100,000 people a year through malpractice...

Ban doctors?

Untamed1972
11-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Or the fact that doctor's kill over 100,000 people a year through malpractice...

Ban doctors?


No.....just make them all work for the gov't cuz only the gov't should have guns and doctors.

Vtec44
11-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Interestingly, I looked at the "stats" for the total killed by CCW permit holder, most are pending, sucide, and some were dissmissed. These are only news accounts.

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-17-2009, 1:07 PM
It also doesn't say if the CCW holders that killed those eight police officers killed them with the guns they were licensed to carry. Or with any gun at all, for that matter. Ditto, the private citizens killed by a CCW holder.

I wonder if they included this incident:

http://cbs2.com/national/police.shooting.sheriffs.2.995014.html

There's no mention of CCW but the guy was carrying concealed.

tacticalcity
11-17-2009, 1:16 PM
I see those numbers and see them as evidence CCWs are good. Those numbers are very, very low. Consider how many people there are in this state alone, not to mention the country. Look at the numbers of people "killed" in accidents, suicides, self defense, homicide, any other method than a natural death. Heck, just look at the number of people killed in an act of violence (not just with guns). So compared to that stuff, these numbers are really tiny. Any objective person would be amazed they are that low. Why would they publish them...they are proof positive they are wrong about CCW? I don't get it. They are making our argument for us with those numbers.

They would be better off sticking to emotional pleas and ignoring the numbers. They are just not on their side. The problem is they realized that for every horror story they have (and lets admit it those stories are horrifying and really do pull at the heart strings) there are a thousand heroic stories about how a rape, robbery, or assault was stopped because the victim had a gun and used it to defend themselves.

cineski
11-17-2009, 2:01 PM
Where's the proof that Josh Sugarmann holds a CCW? He holds an FFL, but I couldn't find anything that states he has a CCW.

hoffmang
11-17-2009, 2:02 PM
We should create an exact duplicate of the number of people shot in gun free zones.

-Gene

bulgron
11-17-2009, 2:04 PM
We should create an exact duplicate of the number of people shot in gun free zones.

-Gene

Except that the gun free zone numbers are probably higher.

cineski
11-17-2009, 2:11 PM
:yes:

Except that the gun free zone numbers are probably higher.

CalNRA
11-17-2009, 2:55 PM
Except that the gun free zone numbers are probably higher.

pretty much all mass shootings happened in gun free zones. A peace time military base is as gun-free as it comes.

hill billy
11-17-2009, 3:00 PM
Except that the gun free zone numbers are probably higher.

That's the point. :D

mtptwo
11-17-2009, 3:55 PM
I want to see how many CCW holders were either not charged or acquitted for shooting someone.

Mayhem
11-17-2009, 4:00 PM
VPC is non-credible anti-gun organisation Akin to letting Rosy O'donald run the Brady Campaign.

Nearly all there Facts are Off and Nearly every statistic they spew forth is skewed.

I would not be surprised if those numbers are over several years.

I would not be surprised if they included incidents like the self defense killing of LAPD's Kevin Gaines by LAPD's Frank Lyga During the CRASH Scandal.

How many of these "Kills" where Justifiable or Excusable?

How many of the shooters had revoked or expired CCWs.

What year range are these numbers from. How do they compare to Killings by Non-CCW permit holders and Prohibited persons?

How many of the murder suicides were actually just a suicide?

How many of these "Shooters" Were LEO's?

VPC loves to throw numbers and BS statics out there. and they are easy to disprove.

It's like counting a guy getting busted for DUI while having a .50 BMG in his trunk as a Crime committed with a .50 BMG. This is how VPC works and why they have no credibility.

I for one put next to no Faith in statistics or studies. Any one can throw numbers, Any one can pay for a study that will say anything you want it to say with absolutely no accountability. When organisations like Brady Campaign and VPC spew stats and studies I take it for the Cow manure it is. To bad when they get discredited they can't be sued for slander by every LEO and CCW holder.

This is essentially why they spew this Fictional Poop. They have no accountability and even if proven wrong some where they have convinced some unarmed no-nothing that what they say is the word of God.

Vtec44
11-17-2009, 4:00 PM
I want to see how many CCW holders were either not charged or acquitted for shooting someone.


They will include that in the "deaths" figure regardless if it is legitimate self defense.

Milsurp Collector
11-17-2009, 4:01 PM
More "research" from our friends at the Violence Policy Center. (http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm)

According to their tally, 85 people have been killed by CCW holders in the last "few years".

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/odometers%20nov%202009.gif



On average, in a given year 90 people are killed by lightning and 75 children drown in bathtubs in the US. So for the 2-year period (2007-2009) during the VPC "study" the corresponding totals would be:

People killed by lightning = 180
Children killed by bathtubs = 150
People killed by concealed handgun permit holders = 85

Vtec44
11-17-2009, 4:07 PM
We need a lightning free zone.

Mayhem
11-17-2009, 4:19 PM
On average, in a given year 90 people are killed by lightning and 75 children drown in bathtubs in the US. So for the 2-year period (2007-2009) during the VPC "study" the corresponding totals would be:

People killed by lightning = 180
Children killed by bathtubs = 150
People killed by concealed handgun permit holders = 85

How many people are killed by Dogs, Swimming pools, and Drivers using cell phones.

darkwater
11-17-2009, 5:01 PM
What's that other statistic I see floating around all the time...something like people draw their weapons 2.5 million times a year to avert a crime, and 90% of the time the gun isn't even fired...something like that...I really need to find that source. So, compared to how many people VPC came up with, it pales in comparison to the number of crimes prevented by gun ownership. VPC needs to look at the forest through the trees...and each tree needs its own defense system, or the forest will not survive.

Quser.619
11-17-2009, 5:18 PM
Curious as to what the number of killed by felons who shouldn't have a gun at all would be over a 2 year period?

bodger
11-17-2009, 6:14 PM
We need "Gun Mandatory Zones" like that town in Texas. Or was it Georgia, or both.

spyderco monkey
11-17-2009, 7:23 PM
Umm, have 8 LEO's been killed by CCW holders? And have 8 CCW holders gone on "mass shootings?" While low by national averages, that does seem rather high. I would certainly like it if they were false.

Mayhem
11-17-2009, 7:38 PM
Theres to many variables.

How many are criminals killed by CCW holders in Self defense. How about accidents or mistaken identity.

Again these statistics do not differentiate between Murder, Manslaughter (negligent accidents), Excusable Homicide, and Justifiable Homicides and suicide (it list murder-suicides). VPC is only uses person Killed for all we know they are counting a person with a CCW who limp wrist a .500 S&W mag and takes the front site to the forehead leading to their death .

I remember a Statistic used For Justifiable Homicides once but it was Faulty as it only counted Court cases where the subject was actually charged and found innocent by justifiable homicide. The majority of Justifiable Homicides cases never see the inside of a court room and where not counted.

VPC always uses vague or inaccurate statistics. They have absolutely no credibility. Again VPC spews forth their faulty Statistics in the hopes of scaring the hell out of some no-nothing in the hopes of making him/her a anti. VPC is scrampbling as they are loosing their fight and credibility in most of the country as most states are now Shall Issue.

ac427cpe
11-17-2009, 7:43 PM
i'm suprised they didn't include CCW holders who might have killed someone with a vehicle. I'm sure it happens, doesn't the CCW instantly make you a bad person? :\

blackberg
11-17-2009, 7:59 PM
now get those numbers divide by the number of people with CCWs in the same time period and get the same percentages for people with no CCWs, I am guessing the number with CCWs will be less, even with the skewed numbers that dont count self defense...
-bb

SkatinJJ
11-17-2009, 8:26 PM
According to the Natioanl Highway Transportation Safety Administration:

"In 2008, there were a total of 37,261 traffic fatalities in the United States. The 14-and younger age group accounted for 4 percent (1,347) of those traffic fatalities. This age group accounted for 3 percent (968) of all vehicle occupant fatalities, 8 percent (193,000) of all the people injured in motor vehicle crashes, and 8 percent (168,000) of all the vehicle occupants injured in crashes. During 2008, fatalities in this age group (1,347) decreased 20 percent from the 1,680 fatalities in 2007.

Every day in the United States, an average of 4 children age 14 and younger were killed and 529 were injured in motor vehicle crashes during 2008."

Ban cars with capable of carrying children in them.

Think of the children.

Semper FI!!!
JJ

RRangel
11-17-2009, 9:08 PM
i'm suprised they didn't include CCW holders who might have killed someone with a vehicle. I'm sure it happens, doesn't the CCW instantly make you a bad person? :\

Don't be surprised. It may very well do just that.

rabagley
11-17-2009, 9:25 PM
All I remember is the 36 month required study of CCW holders in Texas found that CCW holders were 1/12 as likely as a police officer to commit any crime. Similar fractions for specific crime categories.

The right people are getting CCW's, the CCW's are doing everyone a lot of good.

F anyone who says otherwise without better evidence that this tripe. 88 deaths? Including self-defense? Including suicide? My only observation on that data: I'm amazed that there are so few self-defense deaths.

a1c
11-17-2009, 9:58 PM
We need to investigate how many of those deaths actually resulted in charges brought and convictions won against the CCW holders. I suspect it's a small minority. THAT is the statistic we want to broadcast out there as a rebuttal.

Let's keep the good ole car analogy out of this. It's never been a convincing one as far as I'm concerned. Firearms are meant to kill (or at the very least to threaten), not civilian vehicles. That analogy doesn't work at all with the anti-gun crowd, or the "swing vote" we can bring on our side. Instead we need to demonstrate that CCW holders are by far law-abiding citizens quietly and safely exercising a right we all have. That will make us more friends than flawed analogies.

M. Sage
11-17-2009, 10:15 PM
Umm, have 8 LEO's been killed by CCW holders? And have 8 CCW holders gone on "mass shootings?" While low by national averages, that does seem rather high. I would certainly like it if they were false.

Given their history with statistics, they're probably classifying more than one person shot (or even shot at) as a "mass shooting".

Odds are high that they're doing their usual trick of looking for news articles online and then "extrapolating" those articles into "statistics". It's one of their favorite tactics.

RRangel
11-17-2009, 10:20 PM
We need to investigate how many of those deaths actually resulted in charges brought and convictions won against the CCW holders. I suspect it's a small minority. THAT is the statistic we want to broadcast out there as a rebuttal.

Let's keep the good ole car analogy out of this. It's never been a convincing one as far as I'm concerned. Firearms are meant to kill (or at the very least to threaten), not civilian vehicles. That analogy doesn't work at all with the anti-gun crowd, or the "swing vote" we can bring on our side. Instead we need to demonstrate that CCW holders are by far law-abiding citizens quietly and safely exercising a right we all have. That will make us more friends than flawed analogies.

It's already common knowledge and has been demonstrated that CCW holders are by far law abiding. As some would say "the science is in." The VPC is not an objective source of information about firearms by a long shot, and this is also common knowledge. What this "research" shows is that the VPC is solidifying its dishonest reputation.

Sutcliffe
11-17-2009, 11:28 PM
"Nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot" - Except, VPC does not beleive in self-defense so ANYONE shot by a CCW holder = BAD. :rolleyes:


Like most gun banners they seem to have no problem with themselves or their security details defending their life and liberty.

bigcalidave
11-17-2009, 11:44 PM
Oh, if you click on the individual statistics it shows you where all their research comes from.

steelrain82
11-18-2009, 2:34 AM
After reading some of this thread. I realize lots of people dislike guns for whatever reason. But in the end I'm always thankful guns aren't tabacco products. There are so many stupid anti-tobacco commercials out there.

AMDG
11-18-2009, 10:17 AM
So retarded. How about some perspective charts such as these:
1. Tally of People Killed by Law Enforcement Officers.
2. Tally of People Lawfully Killed by CCW Holders.
3. Tally of People Killed by People Who are Not LEO or CCW Holders.

Vtec44
11-18-2009, 10:41 AM
Comparing the stats from VPC (http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) and NLSI (http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html) (National Lightning Safety Institute), the chances of you getting hit by lighting is 8x greater than the chances of you getting killed by a CCW permit holder. :D

Mayhem
11-18-2009, 11:22 AM
I see people tossing the "child" word around so I would like to bring up some facts.

Allot of child statistics are counting children from new born to 24 years old. I see this allot. The excuse for it is that in some cases Persons 24 and under end up in juvenile courts or correction facilities for some charges, such as a 20 year old in California convicted of vehicular manslaughter under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Lame excuse in my book to pad your statistics.

another excuse is that biologically you do not reach full physical development until your in your mid 20's this is the excuse CDC uses. They have a little weight to their argument as they are also responsible for tracking disease and illnesses so using biological adulthood rather then legal makes sense as long as your tracking biologicals like illnesses and diseases. There is a big difference between being biologically mature and legally mature and responsible.

The anti's love to throw "Child" statistics out there due to the emotional impact, and to gather support by converting no-nots into anti's.

Here are some truths.

The most deadly object you can have at home is a swimming pool. Swimming pools kill more children then guns. There are guns in more homes then there are swimming pools at homes. Swimming pools kill more children at home then guns do in or outside the home. again there are more guns then swimming pools. more people with guns then swimming pools and more homes with guns then swimming pools. Yet again swimming pools kill more children then guns, especially children 8 and under.

If I'm not mistaken Drape cords, plastic bags, and 5 gallon buckets with liquid in them kill more toddlers (under 4) then firearms do. SIDS Kills more children under 2 then firearms and the flu kills more people in every age group then Firearms. as some one pointed out you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning then killed by a CCW permit holder.

As other people and myself on this subject have pointed out statistics aren't worth dogie doo. You can play with numbers to say almost anything you want to without actually flat out lying and without comparisons can make it look like something is far more dangerous and deadly than it really is.

A good static would be

X number of people, X number of Death (All causes), X number of people Killed (Non Natural causes) , X number of people criminaly killed (No suicides) including by firearm and not by firearm , X number of people killed by Firearms, X number of people criminal killed by firearms ( No suicides) , x number of people killed by CCW permit by firearms, X number of people criminally Killed by CCW permit holders (No Suicides) by firearms. including ratio's

X Total number of CCW permit holders, X number of CCW permit holders convicted of a violent firearm crime (no victimless crimes like having a firearm in the wrong place) with CCW permit (Does not count crimes committed where or when a CCW permit does not apply such as in the home or while hunting) , X number of CCW permit holders never convicted of Violent Firearm crime. Ratio comparison of both.

X number of LEOs, X number of LEOs Killed on Duty, X number of Leo's Criminal Killed While on Duty (No Suicides) including by firearm and not by firearm, X number of LEO's Killed by CCW Holders while on Duty with Firearm (No Suicides or by other LEO's), X number of LEO's Criminally Killed by CCW Holders by Firearm.

X number of victims of violent crime, X number of Victims of violent firearms crime, X Number of Justifiable homicides

X Number of people who feel they have had there lives saved by a firearm, X number of people who feel Firearms have saved them from becoming a victim of a violent crime, X number of CCW permit holders who feel they have had there lifes saved due to their CCW permit, X number of CCW permit Holders who feel their permit has saved them from being a victim of Violent crime.

averages of how many times a CCW permit holder has felt that their CCW have saved there life per CCW permit holders.

averages of home many times a CCW permit holder has felt that thier CCW has saved them from being a victim of a violent crime per CCW holder.

averages of home many times a CCW permit holder has felt that thier CCW has saved them from being a victim of a crime per CCW holder.

These type of statistics paint a pretty good picture of whats going on. However some of these statistics and numbers are almost impossible to get, and you wont see them from the likes of VPC or the Bradys even if they could get all the numbers because it will contradict their redirect and show them as the BS spewers they are.

bodger
11-18-2009, 11:29 AM
Clearly then, we need more CCWs to be issued so that when a gunman with a CCW does something bad, there will be a good guy with a CCW there to stop him.

Or, we could just outlaw guns altogether and then nobody would have any guns anyway and there would be no need for use of guns for self defense.

I love the way the antis rationalize.

And then they put an "Armed Response" home security sign in their front yards.

B Strong
11-18-2009, 5:57 PM
I wouldn't trust the VPC to tell me the time of day.