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View Full Version : WTK-where/how to CONFIRM we cannot build our own pistols from scratch??


DisgruntledReaper
11-13-2009, 9:51 PM
WTK/NTK- IS it IN FACT(link,code,DOinJ stated) illegal to build a pistol for your own personal,not to be sold, use in this worthless state we live in? I have looked ALL OVER the DOinJ website and aside from licensing garbage(got a headache reading the garbage-who writes that drivel:mad:) I cannot find anywhere that states IN WRITING that an individual cannot make a pistol (or rifle) from scratch-or cast blank- for his/her personal use as long as it is not to be sold to the public.
Can someone confirm anything on this or point me in a direction to go,and no *** pointing!!:p
I have no problem doing a self registering if needed..not like you can go through a ffl because I MADE IT,unless I ship it to myself through a ffl..stoopid..

Any way I would appreciate help on this also.

oh and BTW- I just love that the State Constitution, FROM INCEPTION in the 1800' DOES NOT have ANY type of 2nd ammendment in it..jeez I guess the liberal monkeys in SF,Balsacramento, had this planned from day 1 huh?!:mad::mad: Also read that drivel from the attorney general on the website...what a tool!

Sorry I diverted again:rolleyes:

Anyway thanks for any help on this, i know guys HAVE machined from blanks or castings BUT after words...???

bwiese
11-13-2009, 10:24 PM
12125PC generally controls "unsafe handguns" manufacture, acquisition, trnasfer, etc.

If you're gonna build a pistol from scratch, it should be (and ideally documented) as transitioning thru a 12133PC Roster-exempt form - a dimensionally-compliant single-action revolver or a dimensionally-compliant single-shot pistol.

Vol. reg that then convert the exempt pistol to any other legal form afterwards.

In late 2005/early 2006, DOJ Dept AG Alison Merrielees did actually write a letter that said it was legal to build a straight 1911 pistol - but it actually might not be legal (and she has told some folks "what if I reverse that?") We do have a detriimental reliance defense given her letter, but it is indeed best to build up a Roster-exempt handgun first and then it can transition to any other legal status after Vol. reg.

wash
11-13-2009, 10:25 PM
People have done it, it's not illegal. You can even sell it, but you can't build one with only the intention to sell.

bwiese
11-13-2009, 10:46 PM
People have done it, it's not illegal. You can even sell it, but you can't build one with only the intention to sell.

The handgun, if not done by an exempt person (LEO), should transition thru Roster-exempt status as single-shot/single-action revolver before transitioning to any other status.

DisgruntledReaper
11-15-2009, 1:04 AM
12125PC generally controls "unsafe handguns" manufacture, acquisition, trnasfer, etc.

If you're gonna build a pistol from scratch, it should be (and ideally documented) as transitioning thru a 12133PC Roster-exempt form - a dimensionally-compliant single-action revolver or a dimensionally-compliant single-shot pistol.

Vol. reg that then convert the exempt pistol to any other legal form afterwards.

In late 2005/early 2006, DOJ Dept AG Alison Merrielees did actually write a letter that said it was legal to build a straight 1911 pistol - but it actually might not be legal (and she has told some folks "what if I reverse that?") We do have a detriimental reliance defense given her letter, but it is indeed best to build up a Roster-exempt handgun first and then it can transition to any other legal status after Vol. reg.

Hi Bill, thanks ,I read that (I think-i was reading so many) but still did not sound like what I was looking for.

Is the form 12133PC Roster-exempt form - a form I can get and printout or DO i need to use a ffl if it is a ffl only form?

So since I am the builder,would i build it and include a discription of it and specify that it is a single shot, THEN do the self registration and once that is done, then I can do the conversion? How detailed a discription of the pistol would they want? More than that normally required? Would they just take my word on the singleshot issue or would they want some 'outside confirmation'

I would go about labeling it,ser #,etc...basically just assign it a Ser#, name it 'bill's(my name is bill also) personal pistol, ser# 001,etc. put all that info on the form and pay the $$ for it. DO you think they would get weird ,want to come look at it, DENY it since it is 'homemade",stuff like that? Could they say-need to take to ffl for 10day wait?

I do thank you for your help and insight on this. When it comes to long guns it is pretty clear cut....but the handguns are always a PITA.

Thank you again for your assistance. Sorry I bombarded you on this issue.

Librarian
11-15-2009, 6:43 AM
Is the form 12133PC Roster-exempt form - a form I can get and printout or DO i need to use a ffl if it is a ffl only form?



For 'form' substitute 'condition' - it isn't anything paper, it's a way the gun exists during phases of making it.

As a single-shot, it is in a form or condition which is Roster-exempt.

DisgruntledReaper
11-15-2009, 10:39 AM
OKayyyy...I guess what I am asking is since Mr Wiese posted that it should be -ideally- documented as being IN the single shot form and then registered in that form, HOW can I 'properly document' that it IS in that form when I self DROS it?
I guess what I am trying to ask is since I am building it up,I am assembling it, I am doing the paperwork to self DROS it, are they-
1.By Law Supposed to take my word for what I state regarding its stats or do I need stuff notarized?
2-Do i need to take pics as i build it and assemble it into a single shot state to prove(and keep for my records)?
3-Regarding the 'Firearm Ownership Record' form, which is the form I should be using,since there is no transfer to/from anyone. I would mark the following on the form-
-Handgun
-Singleshot
-Ser # 'xxxx'(I assign one)
-'Make'(I have put my name or initials,etc)
-Model(I have to give it a name)
-Caliber
-Barrel length(IE 10")
-Date Acquired-Guess it would be either completion date or date of form fill out
-**Acquired From--Here we go- I deduce I would mark 'other' and write in 'self made' or 'built from scratch, 'home made',what would be best? I say this is the 'clincher' part to state correctly.

And finally and this is important--IF for WHATEVER reason they give,they DONT like me trying this or the discription,etc and they say 'NO' to THIS one BUT it has nothing to do with my actual background check ,CAN they try to make me give up my other firearms(NOT going to happen!) because of the insidious statement in the signature line at the bottom??
This is the part that always gives me pause and all of my stuff is legal and i have owned most for years....and i will not give up my stuff due to some made up farce or a 'denial' based upon some info they may deem 'offensive' or 'incomplete.

Thank you and i really do appreciate the help and advice.
I am going to see about donating to the forum but not sure if there is a certain tier or if like $75 is an OK donation..

Thank you guys!

wildhawker
11-15-2009, 10:55 AM
The forum currently does not have a vehicle by which to donate. However, please do donate to the Calguns Foundation (link in sig) and support front line legal activism that will one day soon clean up these messy and burdensome laws.

GuyW
11-15-2009, 11:21 AM
....long gun or handgun, it can't be a(n) (illegal) zip gun...

.

CSACANNONEER
11-15-2009, 11:36 AM
OKayyyy...I guess what I am asking is since Mr Wiese posted that it should be -ideally- documented as being IN the single shot form and then registered in that form, HOW can I 'properly document' that it IS in that form when I self DROS it?
I guess what I am trying to ask is since I am building it up,I am assembling it, I am doing the paperwork to self DROS it, are they-
1.By Law Supposed to take my word for what I state regarding its stats or do I need stuff notarized?

Inoccent until proven guilty. So, any documentation is purely up to you.
2-Do i need to take pics as i build it and assemble it into a single shot state to prove(and keep for my records)?

Inoccent until proven guilty. So, any documentation is purely up to you.

3-Regarding the 'Firearm Ownership Record' form, which is the form I should be using,since there is no transfer to/from anyone. I would mark the following on the form-
-Handgun
-Singleshot
-Ser # 'xxxx'(I assign one)
-'Make'(I have put my name or initials,etc)
-Model(I have to give it a name)
-Caliber
-Barrel length(IE 10")
-Date Acquired-Guess it would be either completion date or date of form fill out
-**Acquired From--Here we go- I deduce I would mark 'other' and write in 'self made' or 'built from scratch, 'home made',what would be best? I say this is the 'clincher' part to state correctly.

You do not need to fill out any forms at all. It does not need to be registered or marked with any info at all. If you choose to register it and/or mark it with your name, place of manufacture and an identifying SN, you'll need to follow Federal laws about how to do it. I would call it a "home built" firearm.


And finally and this is important--IF for WHATEVER reason they give,they DONT like me trying this or the discription,etc and they say 'NO' to THIS one BUT it has nothing to do with my actual background check ,CAN they try to make me give up my other firearms(NOT going to happen!) because of the insidious statement in the signature line at the bottom??
This is the part that always gives me pause and all of my stuff is legal and i have owned most for years....and i will not give up my stuff due to some made up farce or a 'denial' based upon some info they may deem 'offensive' or 'incomplete.

If you can not take off your TFH, just make the gun legally and do not report it to the state! That's what I have done. I'm not worried about the state knowing that I made any of mine. I've openly post pictures of several home built guns including this one:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/003-1.jpg
So, I'm not afraid of the state knowing about it. I've just choosen not to register it or even mark it yet.

Thank you and i really do appreciate the help and advice.
I am going to see about donating to the forum but not sure if there is a certain tier or if like $75 is an OK donation..

Thank you guys!

I suggest making a donation to the Calguns Foundation for now. If Kes wants to accept donations at a later time, he'll let us all know.

Cokebottle
11-15-2009, 12:01 PM
The burden of proof is on the accuser.
When you vol'reg, you indicate that it is "single shot", so you have the presumption of innocence both in that you originally built the pistol as single shot, and that you did not commit perjury on the vol'reg form.

If you want to document to support your case if it ever becomes an issue, simply photo-document the build process, including a photo of the gun with the single-shot sled in place with the completed vol'reg form on the table in front of it.

DisgruntledReaper
11-15-2009, 12:51 PM
thank you guys..this has really helped. Kind of sad that almost any other state this is a non issue as long as you follow basic federal/atf/nfa rules..but here- hoops of BS..

I am just getting interested in this stuff and have a couple ideas floating around....including possibly a BP/Cap and Ball(no reg needed) version of the HellBoy 'Samaritan' Breaktop in either .54cal or..hehe..68 Cal IF I can find barrel and get a cylinder made...that would be a hoot and tons of smoke!

Cokebottle
11-15-2009, 1:01 PM
including possibly a BP/Cap and Ball(no reg needed) version of the HellBoy 'Samaritan' Breaktop in either .54cal or..hehe..68 Cal IF I can find barrel and get a cylinder made...that would be a hoot and tons of smoke!
I think that would fall under SBS or "destructive device" unless it is chambered and configured as a dedicated flaregun.

But I'd love to have one too!

bigcalidave
11-15-2009, 5:44 PM
I think that would fall under SBS or "destructive device" unless it is chambered and configured as a dedicated flaregun.

But I'd love to have one too!

Even as a blackpowder? That would be a great toy!!!

ke6guj
11-15-2009, 5:46 PM
I think that would fall under SBS or "destructive device" unless it is chambered and configured as a dedicated flaregun.

But I'd love to have one too!for the most part, frontstuffers are exempt from the SBS and DD regs.

DisgruntledReaper
11-15-2009, 5:51 PM
BP is supposed to be exempt since there are .54 cal BP hunting rifles and old kentucky or other old flint/cab/bp pistols and rifles up to .68 cal.

If there would be any question I would look it up under the ATF / NFA codes.
Since BP is NOT a cartridge it GENERALLY is not a DD..unless maybe you have a 5" cannon..but I am not there..yet..so dont know that part yet..

CSACANNONEER
11-15-2009, 5:59 PM
BP is supposed to be exempt since there are .54 cal BP hunting rifles and old kentucky or other old flint/cab/bp pistols and rifles up to .68 cal.

If there would be any question I would look it up under the ATF / NFA codes.
Since BP is NOT a cartridge it GENERALLY is not a DD..unless maybe you have a 5" cannon..but I am not there..yet..so dont know that part yet..

First of all BP is not exempt from anything! Muzzle loaders are though. Many/ most BP cartridge guns are always considered firearms. Front stuffers are legally considered firearms when loaded and primed. The size of the tube is not a problem. I have a .22 cal front stuffer and I've been around some rather large (a lot bigger than 5") muzzle loading artilary pieces. Another thing to consider is that most muzzle loaders fall under the catagory of made before 1898 or replicas thereof. If you design some wacky piece, there's always a small chance that someone could challenge it's legality.

Cokebottle
11-15-2009, 6:02 PM
So no muzzle loading Plasma rifles in the 40 watt range? :D

CSACANNONEER
11-15-2009, 6:06 PM
So no muzzle loading Plasma rifles in the 40 watt range? :D

I'd run it by ATF first. Get them to send you a letter stating that it's legal. Then, send a copy of that letter to Alison asking for DOJ approval too. She should approve it as long as it doesn't have any evil features on it.

DisgruntledReaper
11-16-2009, 9:41 AM
CSA-Guess i should have narrowed it down to BP Cap and Ball handguns/revolvers...NOT cartridge type like the old Win's/Colts/etc..

What I meant is if a revolver like I described is made as a cap and ball 'front cyl loader' like the regular BP CaB revolvers that are sold, then the .54 and .68 cal should not be an issue.. I COULD be wrong but I am basing this off the fact that I can go and buy ANY CaB revolver and there is NO DROS/10 day wait/registration because of their design of functionality.

Hope thsi clarified what I am trying to state.

Oh and that 40watt plasma muzzleloader..YOU figure a way to keep that plasma charge together while you stuff it down the barrel and make it work...I wil be first in line to buy one! You supplying the plasma charges also!?:rofl::rofl::65:

jdberger
11-16-2009, 10:07 AM
First of all BP is not exempt from anything! Muzzle loaders are though. Many/ most BP cartridge guns are always considered firearms. Front stuffers are legally considered firearms when loaded and primed. The size of the tube is not a problem. I have a .22 cal front stuffer and I've been around some rather large (a lot bigger than 5") muzzle loading artilary pieces. Another thing to consider is that most muzzle loaders fall under the catagory of made before 1898 or replicas thereof. If you design some wacky piece, there's always a small chance that someone could challenge it's legality.

Oh - this could be fun.

Attach a folding stock, PG,VFG, FH and (just for fun) an Eotech to a .54 bp gun..... Duracoat the thing black and send DOJ an anonymous pic describing it as the new pinnacle in untraceable urban assault weapons.

Alison would shart....:eek: