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View Full Version : Gun shop parking lot and apartment parking lot vs. school zone and "public space"


Mr.CRC
11-12-2009, 7:36 PM
Hi:

I want to transport my firearms (a pistol and a long gun) from the gun store to my car trunk. Then I want to transport them from my car trunk to my residence. The car will be in the former case in the gun shop parking lot, and in the latter case in the apartment complex parking lot.

There is a possibility or probability that one or other of the parking lots is in a school zone.

How to perform this task?

IF one considers the parking lots "private property" then the firearms could be carried in their manufacturer's boxes. However, IF the parking lots are actually a "public space" (like a driveway is considered) then I cannot carry the firearms in boxes, for this would be concealment.

Thus, since I think the parking lots are public spaces despite being private property, that all firearms must be transported in locked containers.

According to this logic, it really won't matter if the parking lots are in a school zone or not.

GrizzlyGuy
11-12-2009, 7:50 PM
Transport them in locked cases to and from your car in both locations. This assures that you are in compliance with both the state and federal school zone laws. You will be using this 12026.1 exemption to 12025:

"The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html

ojisan
11-12-2009, 7:53 PM
It would seem that unloaded and in locked separate containers is fairly safe.
I keep ammo in a separate container from any guns.
This is perhaps beyond what the law requires, depending on where you are at the moment, but it is what I do.

DarkHorse
11-12-2009, 8:08 PM
The term "concealment case" has a specific legal meaning, doesn't it? I'd think that a firearm manufacturer's box would be clearly marked as a firearm container, if you were close enough to read the writing and not mentally challenged, and therefore not be considered "concealment" cases.

That being said, unloaded in a locked container will always be safe, so it's your best bet.

wash
11-12-2009, 8:36 PM
I think there is an exception to locked case carry for the day you buy your handgun. Either way, if a cop finds you with a handgun in a box and you have a receipt showing you picked it up that day, only a real a-hole would arrest you for that unless you were doing something else bad.

KylaGWolf
11-12-2009, 8:45 PM
1. In a locked case unloaded to your car from the gun shop. And from your car to your house.

2. Do NOT conceal the weapon

Mr.CRC
11-12-2009, 8:54 PM
Thanks for all the replies. It seems locked container is always the safest bet.

Off to lockable container shopping...

ZRX61
11-12-2009, 9:14 PM
Hmmm.... with rifles I've bought at the local gun shop I just carry them out to my truck & put them on the back seat.... & the shop is about 200 yards from the Sheriffs station..on the same street.

bodger
11-13-2009, 5:57 AM
I think there is an exception to locked case carry for the day you buy your handgun. Either way, if a cop finds you with a handgun in a box and you have a receipt showing you picked it up that day, only a real a-hole would arrest you for that unless you were doing something else bad.

Hmmm.... with rifles I've bought at the local gun shop I just carry them out to my truck & put them on the back seat.... & the shop is about 200 yards from the Sheriffs station..on the same street.


I'm paranoid these days to be out of my house with any gun, even if it's being transported legally.

IrishPirate
11-13-2009, 6:32 AM
you're covered by the law if you're transporting from the gun store to your trunk, and from your trunk to your house, AND YES YOU CAN CONCEAL THEM TO DO SO!! just be discreet about it. if you go around waiving the guns you'll be screwed. just put a blanket over them and if a cop just happens to be right there and stops you explain you just bought them and you're transporting them for safe storage. CA law provides for that.

paul0660
11-13-2009, 6:44 AM
you're covered by the law if you're transporting from the gun store to your trunk, and from your trunk to your house, AND YES YOU CAN CONCEAL THEM TO DO SO!!

No, handguns have to be in a case, not necessarily hard, and locked and unloaded when transported and concealed. There isn't an exception for the day you buy a handgun, for the gun store parking lot, which is public access unless fenced and gated, or for getting it from your trunk to your house unless you park on your own property.

Rifles are different. You can carry them around all day unless you are in a school zone, not that it is a great idea.

GuyW
11-13-2009, 7:42 AM
you're covered by the law if you're transporting from the gun store to your trunk, and from your trunk to your house, AND YES YOU CAN CONCEAL THEM TO DO SO!! just be discreet about it. if you go around waiving the guns you'll be screwed. just put a blanket over them and if a cop just happens to be right there and stops you explain you just bought them and you're transporting them for safe storage. CA law provides for that.

Got cites for that?

.

IrishPirate
11-13-2009, 8:00 AM
Got cites for that?

.

yes i do:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=12726816490+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following: (for reference...see below)

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.

so yeah, you can conceal an unloaded weapon to take it into your house if you're coming from the place you bought it. read the other provisions for more reasons it's lawful to conceal an unloaded weapon without a permit. if you bring it out in public you could be charged with brandishing a firearm. If you conceal it to bring it inside it's considered being polite as apparently some people are scared of guns!

paul0660
11-13-2009, 8:09 AM
Good job Pirate! You are right I was wrong! There is still the school zone thing but that is pretty easy to figure out.

GuyW
11-13-2009, 8:35 AM
so yeah, you can conceal an unloaded weapon to take it into your house if you're coming from the place you bought it. read the other provisions for more reasons it's lawful to conceal an unloaded weapon without a permit. if you bring it out in public you could be charged with brandishing a firearm. If you conceal it to bring it inside it's considered being polite as apparently some people are scared of guns!

Yes, you're right (brain fart by me).

On the other hand, learn from Theseus that one can be arrested (and possibly) convicted in CA for LEGAL actvities with guns.

Think all cops know this exception? Or will accept the situation as conforming?

.

GrizzlyGuy
11-13-2009, 8:53 AM
Note that the 12026.2 exemptions that IrishPirate cited only exempt you from 12025 (concealed weapons). If you are in a school zone, the state (for handguns) and federal (for all firearms) locked container requirements still apply:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones

wildhawker
11-13-2009, 9:02 AM
I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone would choose $5,000+ drama over a $25 case/lock.

Glock22Fan
11-13-2009, 10:59 AM
I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone would choose $5,000+ drama over a $25 case/lock.

I agree.

I really cannot understand why some people feel the need to jump down my throat whenever I advise that handguns should be carried unloaded in locked cases, just because they think there's some exception that I haven't explained.

Decoligny
11-13-2009, 11:15 AM
I agree.

I really cannot understand why some people feel the need to jump down my throat whenever I advise that handguns should be carried unloaded in locked cases, just because they think there's some exception that I haven't explained.

There are some who wish to exercise their right to keep and BEAR arms to the full extent of the law.

If everyone just locked their handgun in a $25.00 case at all times while out and about, then nobody would ever Open Carry, and a right unexercised is a right lost. I know it hasn't been deemed a "right" by California, but California didn't give me my fundamental rights, God did.

Some of us would like to be able to actually carry our firearms and have immediate access to them.

Some of us would prefer to be able actually get to our firearms should the need to defend ourselves arise when we are not in the comfort of our own home.

I carry Loaded and Concealed on my own property, even in the front yard (it is legal because it is in unincorporated territory).

I carry Loaded Open Carry in and around my own neighborhood (legally).

I do however lock my firearm in my "$25.00 case" when I am nearing the school zones in my area.

The key point is to know the law, stay within the law, and be fully prepared to defend yourself against wrongful prosecution.

wildhawker
11-13-2009, 11:40 AM
You're mischaracterizing my comments in typical OC knee-jerk fashion.

The OP stated, then inquired:

There is a possibility or probability that one or other of the parking lots is in a school zone.

How to perform this task?

In light of the above (in bold), I ask what you believe is incorrect about the implication of my post suggesting the use of a gun case and lock .

You say, repeatedly, "Some of us." In truth, "all" of "us" want the same things - it's a shame that you elect to view those who live in sub/urban areas and have different perspectives on the dynamics of guns in non-rural CA (especially, say, in LA, Fremont or San Jose) as impotent 'rights-losers'. "Some" of "us" don't want to see another Theseus because "they" wanted to "exercise their right to keep and BEAR arms to the full extent of the law" without understanding the full implications and requirements of what they were doing. Let me try this a different way: a right exercised improperly in California are rights and savings lost.

So, for just a few short more months (after over a century having no RKBA) one would be wise to avoid thousands of dollars of legal fees, stress, loss of work and potential loss of rights by simply employing a $25 case and lock.


There are some who wish to exercise their right to keep and BEAR arms to the full extent of the law.

If everyone just locked their handgun in a $25.00 case at all times while out and about, then nobody would ever Open Carry, and a right unexercised is a right lost. I know it hasn't been deemed a "right" by California, but California didn't give me my fundamental rights, God did.

Some of us would like to be able to actually carry our firearms and have immediate access to them.

Some of us would prefer to be able actually get to our firearms should the need to defend ourselves arise when we are not in the comfort of our own home.

I carry Loaded and Concealed on my own property, even in the front yard (it is legal because it is in unincorporated territory).

I carry Loaded Open Carry in and around my own neighborhood (legally).

I do however lock my firearm in my "$25.00 case" when I am nearing the school zones in my area.

The key point is to know the law, stay within the law, and be fully prepared to defend yourself against wrongful prosecution.

IrishPirate
11-13-2009, 1:00 PM
I agree.

I really cannot understand why some people feel the need to jump down my throat whenever I advise that handguns should be carried unloaded in locked cases, just because they think there's some exception that I haven't explained.

i hope you dont think that i was jumping down your throat. I agree that locking them up is by far the best way to go about it; however, I'm sick of having to buy new gun locks all the time, or new locking containers for my guns just to be able to move them around. I already have more than i need, but for some reason, i have to buy more!! I just wanted people to know that if' they're like me and dont want to purchase additional cases and such, or if they just dont have them on them to be able to transfer them at the time, they don't actually need them in these cases.

in reference to the "school zone", the law also makes exemption for people who live within school zones as long as it's obvious that they are making the attempt to keep the guns "on the DL" and are transporting them straight to and from locked containers (ie: trunk of car to gun safe or inside of house) then they wont be penalized.

no i absolutely dont think that every cop out there will know the law, but after a few minutes of friendly discussion about how you're doing the right thing within the law, you'll be fine most of the time. if you're really that worried, print it out and have it near by to show them. it's all about how much you're willing to fight for your rights.

in short: buy a locking container if you're worried, but JUST KNOW THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO IF YOU FOLLOW THOSE PROVISIONS

IrishPirate
11-13-2009, 1:13 PM
You say, repeatedly, "Some of us." In truth, "all" of "us" want the same things - it's a shame that you elect to view those who live in sub/urban areas and have different perspectives on the dynamics of guns in non-rural CA (especially, say, in LA, Fremont or San Jose) as impotent 'rights-losers'. "Some" of "us" don't want to see another Theseus because "they" wanted to "exercise their right to keep and BEAR arms to the full extent of the law" without understanding the full implications and requirements of what they were doing. Let me try this a different way: a right exercised improperly in California are rights and savings lost.

So, for just a few short more months (after over a century having no RKBA) one would be wise to avoid thousands of dollars of legal fees, stress, loss of work and potential loss of rights by simply employing a $25 case and lock.

I can see your point, and i agree that we all most likely have a common goal, but to just give in and do what they tell us WILL NOT help us attain that goal. The founding fathers didn't just give in and pay their taxes, quarter troops, and abide by laws they had no say in just because "it's conveinient for now and it'll probably pass". they stood up for what was right knowing that the benefit outweighed the cost.
we're becoming more and more like sheep these days and maybe it will take just one person exercising their rights near a school and some ill-informed officer arresting them to thrust this argument to the front of state or national attention.
when we stop looking at things as a matter of dollar signs and stop putting a price on our freedom, maybe then we'll truely understand what it is to be free. I dont know about you, but i'd rather spend $5,000 guaranteeing my right to bear arms; i'm not going to let them buy my rights for $25 if i have any say in it. that's why i came to Calguns, to help inform people about their rights, and i'm sad to find people like you sir who would rather just sit back and hope that the same politicians who are stripping us of our right will just turn around and give them back because we asked for them. the indiference of good men is the worst evil of all

wildhawker
11-13-2009, 1:18 PM
And you make these assertions based upon...

your substantial experience on this issue with law enforcement agencies and DAs throughout the state?

I'm glad that you feel "most of the time" is adequate. Remind me to tell the guy who gets arrested and has to pay $5k of his mortgage payments, food and utilities for a retainer.



no i absolutely dont think that every cop out there will know the law, but after a few minutes of friendly discussion about how you're doing the right thing within the law, you'll be fine most of the time.

in short: buy a locking container if you're worried, but JUST KNOW THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO IF YOU FOLLOW THOSE PROVISIONS

wildhawker
11-13-2009, 1:25 PM
See, this is what really gets me. Is it that you see us as doing nothing? Do you think that a criminal case pre-incorporation is going to somehow find a friendlier and sympathetic CA court system? I don't get it.

To repeat wrt UOC: no one is saying "never", just "soon, but not yet".

We're not the Founding Fathers, this is not the American Revolution and we are winning. There is no need for you or anyone else to be a martyr.

If you think that I, "who would rather just sit back and hope that the same politicians who are stripping us of our right will just turn around and give them back because we asked for them", am not making every effort to support our cause then I would suggest you have not been paying attention.

Indiference [sic] of good men may be the worst evil of all, but ignorance surely follows close behind.

I can see your point, and i agree that we all most likely have a common goal, but to just give in and do what they tell us WILL NOT help us attain that goal. The founding fathers didn't just give in and pay their taxes, quarter troops, and abide by laws they had no say in just because "it's conveinient for now and it'll probably pass". they stood up for what was right knowing that the benefit outweighed the cost.
we're becoming more and more like sheep these days and maybe it will take just one person exercising their rights near a school and some ill-informed officer arresting them to thrust this argument to the front of state or national attention.
when we stop looking at things as a matter of dollar signs and stop putting a price on our freedom, maybe then we'll truely understand what it is to be free. I dont know about you, but i'd rather spend $5,000 guaranteeing my right to bear arms; i'm not going to let them buy my rights for $25 if i have any say in it. that's why i came to Calguns, to help inform people about their rights, and i'm sad to find people like you sir who would rather just sit back and hope that the same politicians who are stripping us of our right will just turn around and give them back because we asked for them. the indiference of good men is the worst evil of all

IrishPirate
11-13-2009, 5:10 PM
well seeing as i do have multiple family members who are LEO's and I work in an environment where i get to speak with LEO's regularly, and seeing as other family members of mine are lawyers and i've taken it upon myself to do countless hours of research on these topics....yeah, i'd say that most of the time if a cop doesn't know the law and you advise him in a friendly manner, you'll be ok.
see on the one hand you're saying just do what they tell you, and on the other you're saying stand up for your rights. You think i'm ignorant because i point out the flaws in your statements? you're right, this isn't the american revolution, thank God for that. but if you think that our civil liberties aren't being raped now as they were then, then my friend, you might want to look up the definition of ignorance again.
If you truely are helping to advance our gun rights back to where they rightfully should be, then why would you for one second even think to suggest that it is better to practice what they tell us to, rather than what we have the right to, when the two are obviously conflicting? just because of money? I get that $5k is alot. I dont have it. I'm sure most people dont. But my point is that our civil liberties are worth more than $5k. People actually give their lives for them everyday. unfortunately not enough people realize that our power lies in coming together to uphold our rights, not in deciding whether or not to vote in the latest election. it always seems to be that people argue "soon, but not yet". eventually the time will have to be now, and if you stand firm on your "soon but not yet" platform, you will completely miss the chance to change things. the time is right now, it is always now. now is the only time that things can happen. the horizon is an imaginary line that receeds as you approach it. anything beyond the horizon is unattainable.
It's obvious we have different views, what makes me sad is that when i try to educate someone about their rights and help them stand up for their rights, you seem more concerned with is it practical, and will it affect me? I'm sorry that you see the world that way, but you're not alone. and that is what i think is wrong with this country.

Cokebottle
11-13-2009, 5:24 PM
Thanks for all the replies. It seems locked container is always the safest bet.
Agreed. There is no question of legality in nearly any situation if it is unloaded in a locked container.
Hmmm.... with rifles I've bought at the local gun shop I just carry them out to my truck & put them on the back seat.... & the shop is about 200 yards from the Sheriffs station..on the same street.
Rifle and handgun laws are different. The only time the rifle must be in a locked case is if it is a RAW or within a school zone.
I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone would choose $5,000+ drama over a $25 case/lock.
Agreed. In light of Theseus' case, it is currently better to be safe than sorry, as the judge in that case has effectively ruled that "private property accessible to the public" is to be considered "public property" for the purposes of 626.9.

And 626.9 is the kicker... it may or may not override the exceptions listed in 12025/12026... anybody want to be the test case?
The problem is, you are in violation of 626.9 if you are simply driving through a GFSZ and on public property. How many schools do you pass going into or out of your neighborhood?

Hopefully, this will all be cleared up after Theseus wins his appeal and we have citable case law that confirms that private property is private property and thus, a parking lot or private sidewalk will then be excluded from 626.9.


But WRT the original question, even though it is legal within the wording and "our" interpretation of 626.9 to UOC from the gun shop to the car, and from the car to an apartment, it is not legal to drive that vehicle off of private property and onto public property without the gun being in a locked container (case, or a trunk, without fold-down rear seats).

wildhawker
11-14-2009, 1:19 AM
It appears that your family includes a number of criminal/firearms attorneys intimately familiar with the 58 DAs and their leanings on this issue. Further, it's clear that your LEO family is duly aware of the policies of the various enforcement agencies throughout the state and we should be confident that actions such as those you promote bear no risk. It was difficult for me to understand the wisdom in advocating against a $25 case and lock to avoid the possibility of thousands of dollars in legal fees, lost rights and countless other hardships, but you've convinced me otherwise (being that our rights are endangered by them and all). I mean hey, this is the hill to die on, right? I'm with you 100%.

I'm sorry you feel that I and those who may share my perspective on civil rights advocacy are what is wrong with this country. However, know that I look forward to securing and advancing your rights as well my own. As further debate is not likely to be productive I will simply stand by my previous comments and urge Calgunners to carefully consider their actions, weighing them against their tolerance to personal risk and financial wherewithal.

well seeing as i do have multiple family members who are LEO's and I work in an environment where i get to speak with LEO's regularly, and seeing as other family members of mine are lawyers and i've taken it upon myself to do countless hours of research on these topics....yeah, i'd say that most of the time if a cop doesn't know the law and you advise him in a friendly manner, you'll be ok.
see on the one hand you're saying just do what they tell you, and on the other you're saying stand up for your rights. You think i'm ignorant because i point out the flaws in your statements? you're right, this isn't the american revolution, thank God for that. but if you think that our civil liberties aren't being raped now as they were then, then my friend, you might want to look up the definition of ignorance again.
If you truely are helping to advance our gun rights back to where they rightfully should be, then why would you for one second even think to suggest that it is better to practice what they tell us to, rather than what we have the right to, when the two are obviously conflicting? just because of money? I get that $5k is alot. I dont have it. I'm sure most people dont. But my point is that our civil liberties are worth more than $5k. People actually give their lives for them everyday. unfortunately not enough people realize that our power lies in coming together to uphold our rights, not in deciding whether or not to vote in the latest election. it always seems to be that people argue "soon, but not yet". eventually the time will have to be now, and if you stand firm on your "soon but not yet" platform, you will completely miss the chance to change things. the time is right now, it is always now. now is the only time that things can happen. the horizon is an imaginary line that receeds as you approach it. anything beyond the horizon is unattainable.
It's obvious we have different views, what makes me sad is that when i try to educate someone about their rights and help them stand up for their rights, you seem more concerned with is it practical, and will it affect me? I'm sorry that you see the world that way, but you're not alone. and that is what i think is wrong with this country.

wash
11-14-2009, 2:07 AM
Good luck explaining gun laws to a cop.

I was only half right on the locked container exception for the day you buy and I think I probably know most gun laws at least as well as your average urban area cop.

I don't know when we got the GFSZ law but I know that several years ago I brought home a pistol in a cardboard box and I thought I was 100% legal. I'm glad I didn't get pulled over although I don't know if I ever entered a GFSZ or if that even existed back then.

Stay out of jail should be the #1 priority for CA gun owners these days. Remember, until we get incorporation you don't have any second amendment rights and can be screwed over in the courts.

Theseus was able to go on his way after dealing with the cops, it was only days later when he was charged with a bogus crime. As bogus as the charge was, all of us can still get screwed over if he looses his appeal. If we had 10 Theseus situations going through the courts, what are the odds that we get screwed?

Wise up and listen to the people who are trying to help you.

B Strong
11-14-2009, 7:50 AM
Transport them in locked cases to and from your car in both locations. This assures that you are in compliance with both the state and federal school zone laws. You will be using this 12026.1 exemption to 12025:

"The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html

Correct.

Locked case to and from range, gunstore, gunsmith, gunshow, etc. you're legal.

B Strong
11-14-2009, 7:58 AM
...no i absolutely dont think that every cop out there will know the law, but after a few minutes of friendly discussion about how you're doing the right thing within the law, you'll be fine most of the time. if you're really that worried, print it out and have it near by to show them. it's all about how much you're willing to fight for your rights...

I deal with officers quite often, at the street and supervisory levels, and have a family full of bluesuits as well.

My experience is this: you can always tell a cop, but you can't tell him much.

Putting yourself in a positin to explain "the law" to an officer is a losing proposition more often than not.

Just do all your transportation of firearms in locked cases and you're one step ahead of legal problems.

yellowfin
11-14-2009, 9:26 AM
According to the LCAV, guns should be sold in parking lots, correct?

IrishPirate
11-16-2009, 9:38 AM
I'll say it again so that no one gets confused. A LOCKED CONTAINER IS THE BEST POLICY!!!! ALWAYS!!!! however, in the instance described you would be legal. and if you have a right to do something, you shouldn't be afraid to exercise that right if you have to (or even want to). if you're not going to exercise your rights, you don't deserve them, and if we're going to let LEO's break the law just because we dont want to deal with any hassel, then WE are pissing on our rights with them. everyone wants that one case to come about and change everything, but no one wants it to be them. I agree, stay legal and stay safe....but what i said in my original post covers both, as long as you're not afraid to do the right thing and stand up for your rights. The gov't has power because we give it to them, i think we need to remember that.