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View Full Version : Stupid question: can an FFL do house calls?


curtisfong
11-12-2009, 10:02 AM
Can an FFL do house calls, or does the transfer have to happen in the storefront?

oaklander
11-12-2009, 10:07 AM
I'm pretty sure it has to happen at the location specified on their FFL.

I could be wrong, though.

Can an FFL do house calls, or does the transfer have to happen in the storefront?

halifax
11-12-2009, 10:13 AM
Can an FFL do house calls, or does the transfer have to happen in the storefront?

The initial paperwork/submittal must be done at the address on the FFL (or a gun show) but I believe the firearm may be delivered at the buyer's residence but nowhere else (except shop and FFL's home).

Mssr. Eleganté
11-12-2009, 5:22 PM
I thought delivery could only take place at the FFL's licensed premises or a legal extension of the licensed premises (like a bona fide gun show in the same State).

freakshow10mm
11-13-2009, 9:12 AM
100% has to be done at the licensed premises. The license is to engage in business at the premises on the license and no where else.

EXCEPTION: FFLs may engage in business at bona fide gun shows.

There were a few FFLs in Texas that got their license revoked because they were doing house calls for transfer and delivery. Someone called, the ATF shut them down.

freakshow10mm
11-13-2009, 9:27 AM
Like I stated above. The paperwork and transfer/delivery must happen at


the licensed premises
bona fide gun show

geeknow
11-13-2009, 9:38 AM
what he said ^^^

halifax
11-13-2009, 10:30 AM
Am I reading this wrong?

12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the business shall be conducted only in the buildings designated in the license.
(B) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may take possession of firearms and commence preparation of registers for the sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms at gun shows or events, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, if the gun show or event is not conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall be entitled to conduct business as authorized herein at any gun show or event in the state without regard to the jurisdiction within this state that issued the license pursuant to subdivision (a), provided the person complies with (i) all applicable laws, including, but not limited to, the waiting period specified in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3), and (ii) all applicable local laws, regulations, and fees, if any.
A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall publicly display his or her license issued pursuant to subdivision (a), or a facsimile thereof, at any gun show or event, as specified in this subparagraph.
(C) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may engage in the sale and transfer of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, at events specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078, subject to the prohibitions and restrictions contained in that subdivision.
A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) also may accept delivery of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, outside the building designated in the license, provided the firearm is being donated for the purpose of sale or transfer at an auction or similar event specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078.
(D) The firearm may be delivered to the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm at one of the following places:
(i) The building designated in the license.
(ii) The places specified in subparagraph (B) or (C).
(iii) The place of residence of, the fixed place of business of, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by, the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm.

freakshow10mm
11-13-2009, 11:22 AM
Federal law does not allow such action, therefore the state statute is irrelevant. You wouldn't be breaking state law buy you would be breaking federal law.

djbooya
11-14-2009, 10:20 AM
Am I reading this wrong?


...
(D) The firearm may be delivered to the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm at one of the following places:
(i) The building designated in the license.
(ii) The places specified in subparagraph (B) or (C).
(iii) The place of residence of, the fixed place of business of, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by, the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm.


I transferred with an FFL in the past that did all his DROS and firearm delivery at the Metcalf Range. Given that he is still around, I'm guessing it was not an issue for his audits. So if delivering to a gun range is legal (or appears to be) I don't see why you couldn't do it at someone's home.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-15-2009, 12:15 AM
...So if delivering to a gun range is legal (or appears to be) I don't see why you couldn't do it at someone's home.

Here's why an FFL can't deliver firearms at a customer's home...

§ 478.50 Locations covered by license.

The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made; or

(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of § 478.100.

§ 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of § 178.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at gun shows or events shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by Subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at gun shows or events shall include the location of the sale or other disposition and be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee and retained on the premises specified on the license

Maybe he has the range listed as his licensed premises. Or maybe he is using the "gun show or event" exemption to deliver guns at the range. Most shooting ranges would fall under the description "a function sponsored by any local organization, devoted to the sporting use of firearms". Or maybe he doesn't know about the Federal restrictions on where an FFL can deliver firearms.

G17GUY
11-15-2009, 12:28 AM
Why you want to include a back rub with a firearms purchase?

kemasa
11-15-2009, 9:36 AM
I transferred with an FFL in the past that did all his DROS and firearm delivery at the Metcalf Range. Given that he is still around, I'm guessing it was not an issue for his audits. So if delivering to a gun range is legal (or appears to be) I don't see why you couldn't do it at someone's home.

Do you know if he marked the paperwork that it did the transfer at the range? If not, there is would be hard for anyone to know about it unless it was reported or noticed by the appropriate agencies.

Many people speed on the roads, so you could say that it appears to be legal, yet sometimes people do get a ticket for speeding. Just because that person has not gotten caught yet does not mean that it is legal. It is best to look elsewhere to determine whether it is legal or not, such as the code sections posted.

djbooya
11-15-2009, 10:00 AM
Do you know if he marked the paperwork that it did the transfer at the range? If not, there is would be hard for anyone to know about it unless it was reported or noticed by the appropriate agencies.

Many people speed on the roads, so you could say that it appears to be legal, yet sometimes people do get a ticket for speeding. Just because that person has not gotten caught yet does not mean that it is legal. It is best to look elsewhere to determine whether it is legal or not, such as the code sections posted.

I never cared what he did with his paperwork. I just thought it was interesting that he did it at a public shooting range. I'm guessing he has his FFL address really setup for home and doesn't want people coming to his house, which I can't blame him for. As for it being legal, I really don't care at this point. It's his business/license so if he blows it doing that it doesn't effect me any. I've since started using an FFL that was a little closer to home anyhow so I don't even know if he's still doing that or not.

kemasa
11-15-2009, 10:13 AM
The point is that just because someone is doing something does not mean that it is legal or not. Perhaps his license was at the range and it was legal, perhaps it was at his home and it was not legal.

One issue is if the FFL is doing something illegal it can still affect you since when they are investigated, the scope could expand and if the firearm was not properly transferred, then there could be some issues for the buyer.

eltee
11-19-2009, 11:05 AM
"§ 478.50 Locations covered by license.

The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse; ...

§ 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises...

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at gun shows or events shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by Subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at gun shows or events shall include the location of the sale or other disposition and be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee and retained on the premises specified on the license"

I had a couple of application questions re. the above. Note that I deleted some text for brevity, but that which is shown is within context and intact. Emphasis (boldface) added.

478.50 (a) refers to a storage warehouse for keeping guns and ammo. Once a firearm is logged into the bound book, is any documentation needed to store the firearm in storage away from the licensed premises?

478.100 (b) refers to "an event" sponsored by national, State (sic) or local organization. I see no specific reference to the organization being a government or government sponsored entity. So, if a private school or 4H club or other private organization such as a private gun club wants to have an auction or estate sale, would an FFL be OK attending and starting the paperwork at the event and then finishing up the process at the licensed location?

freakshow10mm
11-19-2009, 11:16 AM
Once a firearm is logged into the bound book, is any documentation needed to store the firearm in storage away from the licensed premises?
No. They must be logged into the bound book on the licensed premises. The ATF recommends inventory be kept at the warehouse for accuracy.

478.100 (b) refers to "an event" sponsored by national, State (sic) or local organization. I see no specific reference to the organization being a government or government sponsored entity. So, if a private school or 4H club or other private organization such as a private gun club wants to have an auction or estate sale, would an FFL be OK attending and starting the paperwork at the event and then finishing up the process at the licensed location?
Yes, that would be considered a gun show type event, like the Ducks Unlimited, NRA Banquets, Boy Scout stuff, 4H stuff. Please note the second part of 478.100(b). There is criteria that must be met to be a gun show.