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View Full Version : Gun safes which claim "DOJ approved" -- are they really?


Mr.CRC
11-08-2009, 3:03 PM
Hi:

In my apartment situation, I need a way to secure firearms primarily to prevent unauthorized access by my child, and to provide at least prevention of "smash + grab" type burglary.

My research has led me to the conclusion that finding a safe which offers substantial burglary resistance and fire resistance is not a simple undertaking, and will involve second-guessing every marketing claim, asking for test reports, double checking details, etc. Also, such a safe would cost at least several $1000s and be too heavy and large to manage or fit in this apartment.

For now I think it's better to get something that will keep my kid safe and actually get some guns and go shooting at the range, rather than spend another month reading about safes and never getting anything accomplished.

But my focus is now directed toward second guessing claims of "DOJ approved."

The precise CA DOJ requirements are here:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe.php

Stack-on claims DOJ approved for it's non-insulated safes, as does Amsec for it's most economical models:

http://stack-on.com/securityplus/gun_safes/index.html
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-TF-main.html

Notice the smaller two Amsec safes are only 14 ga. steel, not the 12 ga. required.

Stack-on doesn't state their metal thickness at all.

While I understand that these DOJ requirements are not really what is needed to show that one has seriously attempted to keep their guns out of the reach of children in case of an accident relating to unauthorized access, but rather are the requirements relating to:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.php

Nonetheless, it is still an issue whether a manufacturer is legitimately claiming that they meet the specs.

Can anyone with a Stack-on cabinet of the "gun_safes" category listed above
actually measure their wall thickness and door thickness and confirm it meets the specs?

pretz
11-08-2009, 3:37 PM
I had no idea that the DOJ had specs for "approved" safes! Thanks for the info!

Now, I wonder, is their any actual law stating that we store firearms in an approved safe, or is it just than a DOJ approved safe may be a "get out of jail free" card?

Hayashi Killian
11-08-2009, 3:47 PM
There is no law stating that a firearm must be stored within a DOJ approved safe or use a locking device. However they must be stored if there is a reasonable chance that a minor can get ahold of them.

And yes, there is such a thing as a DOJ-approved safe. You need to bring some proof of ownership of the safe in when you obtain a firearm, or proof of purchase of a suitable locking device.

Dr Rockso
11-08-2009, 3:50 PM
Pay attention to the "either" and "or" in the DOJ document.

Mr.CRC
11-08-2009, 3:52 PM
I had no idea that the DOJ had specs for "approved" safes! Thanks for the info!

Now, I wonder, is their any actual law stating that we store firearms in an approved safe, or is it just than a DOJ approved safe may be a "get out of jail free" card?

I guess I goofed and should have put this in the "2nd Amend. Politics and Laws" forum. But anyway...

My understanding is that the DOJ safe requirements only are needed to exempt one from the requirement to purchase an approved safety device with each firearm purchase. So if you can prove to the satisfaction of the law and to the gun dealer that you, in essence, already have purchased an approved safety device (such as an approved gun safe) then you needn't purchase another safety device.

Satisfying the law in regards to not being charged with the crime of letting a child gain access to a gun (which only becomes a crime if an accident occurs, the gun get's out of your control, etc.--see the actual laws for the precise reading!) then you are still not guilty of a crime if "the gun was kept in a locked container or in a location where a reasonable person would believe it was secure." ("How to Own a Gun and Stay out of Jail--CA 2009," by John Machtinger)

jmlivingston
11-08-2009, 3:52 PM
The benefit of a "DoJ approved" safe is that you can do the affidavit for longarm purchases and not have to buy a lock. Other than that, just get something that works for your needs.

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 4:00 PM
There are CA DOJ certified safety devices (locks) and there are safes that meet CA DOJ Regulatory Standards, but there are no CA DOJ "approved" safes. You can have any safe as long as it meets the CA DOJ regulations.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe.php


Regulatory Gun Safe Standards

DOJ regulatory standards require a gun safe to meet either:
All of the following requirements:


Shall be able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage;
Shall have a locking system consisting of at minimum a mechanical or electronic combination lock. The mechanical or electronic combination lock utilized by the safe shall have at least 10,000 possible combinations consisting of a minimum three numbers, letters, or symbols. The lock shall be protected by a case-hardened (Rc 60+) drill-resistant steel plate, or drill-resistant material of equivalent strength;
Boltwork shall consist of a minimum of three steel locking bolts of at least inch thickness that intrude from the door of the safe into the body of the safe or from the body of the safe into the door of the safe, which are operated by a separate handle and secured by the lock;
Shall be capable of repeated use. The exterior walls shall be constructed of a minimum 12-gauge thick steel for a single-walled safe, or the sum of the steel walls shall add up to at least .100 inches for safes with two walls. Doors shall be constructed of a minimum of two layers of 12-gauge steel, or one layer of 7-gauge steel compound construction;
Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door. Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.

or
All of the following requirements:


Is listed as an Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container;
Is able to fully contain firearms;
Provides for the secure storage of firearms.

kmca
11-08-2009, 10:36 PM
There are CA DOJ certified safety devices (locks) and there are safes that meet CA DOJ Regulatory Standards, but there are no CA DOJ "approved" safes. You can have any safe as long as it meets the CA DOJ regulations.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe.php


[/LIST]

Isn't this a list of approved safes?
http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp

Technical Ted
11-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Isn't this a list of approved safes?
http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp
Safes and locks, but primarily locks. Seems to me that if you find a safe--or have one built--that meets all the criteria I previously linked to, then it is legal to use whether or not it is on that list.

Brianguy
11-09-2009, 12:24 AM
Safes and locks, but primarily locks. Seems to me that if you find a safe--or have one built--that meets all the criteria I previously linked to, then it is legal to use whether or not it is on that list.
Better safe than sorry:D

I couldn't help it, I replied just for the pun haha

Mickey D
11-09-2009, 8:48 PM
The DOJ approved safe requirement is primarliy for those that have an FFL and buying/selling guns.
It is also required if you don't want to buy a gun lock at every purchase of a handgun/firearm.

hermosabeach
05-27-2015, 5:48 PM
oP

How did this work out for you??


All of the following requirements:

Is listed as an Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container;
Is able to fully contain firearms;
Provides for the secure storage of firearms.

barrage
05-27-2015, 6:07 PM
If it's been approved by an American three letter agency, then it's probably bad anyway.

Also, what the guy above me said.

pterrell
05-27-2015, 6:15 PM
The DoJ requirements are a joke. Wouldn't take long at all for just about anyone who wanted in to break it open. I wish I could smack each person on the back of the head who wants to buy the cheapest safe they can to protect their $10,000 - $20,000 gun collections. Stop protecting your investments with junk!

Kowan
05-27-2015, 6:28 PM
The benefit of a "DoJ approved" safe is that you can do the affidavit for longarm purchases and not have to buy a lock. Other than that, just get something that works for your needs.
That and CYA in case of a burglary. You attempted to keep them safe.
So when your stolen weapons are used in a crime you can show you purchased a state approved "safe".

JDay
05-27-2015, 7:48 PM
A "safe" only needs to be certified as an RSC to be DOJ approved.

Fishslayer
05-27-2015, 8:02 PM
The DoJ requirements are a joke. Wouldn't take long at all for just about anyone who wanted in to break it open. I wish I could smack each person on the back of the head who wants to buy the cheapest safe they can to protect their $10,000 - $20,000 gun collections. Stop protecting your investments with junk!

If a serious pro wants your **** bad enough he's probably gonna get it.

A $200 cabinet bolted to the wall is still better than nothing and will deter a casual thief who's in a hurry.

Who's gonna spend $2K to protect a Mossberg 500 & a couple of glocks?

readysetgo
05-27-2015, 8:07 PM
Not quite right all around...

There's two standards for a "REGULATORY GUN SAFE STANDARD" there.

Notice...

DOJ regulatory standards require a gun safe to meet either:

All of the following requirements:

blah blah blah

or

All of the following requirements:

blah blah blah


Now, stay with me, there's a third option, which is actually "certified" by DOJ, however they're not called "safes" they're called DOJ-Certified Lock Box (That term is used on the Affidavit Stating Ownership of a DOJ-Certified Lock Box) and they're listed under the "ROSTER OF FIREARM SAFETY DEVICES CERTIFIED FOR SALE"

I have no idea where the standards for getting on the roster are but they are not the same as the standards for a "Regulatory Gun Safe" in this context and I think most people get the two (three actually) confused.

M1NM
05-27-2015, 8:55 PM
All safes - heavy/combination lock etc meet DOJ specs.
All firearm locks meet DOJ requirement of a locking device - for individual guns.
Gun cabinets - single layer tin/no fire protection/key lock - must have a specific number of locking bars/tabs to meet DOJ specs. There is an approved list of models online.

BadSushi
05-27-2015, 9:03 PM
I also live in an apartment and I found a great safe from these guys in Simi Valley
http://www.sunweldingsafes.com

I then had 2 half inch steel plates bigger than my closet door cut and I bolted the safe to them, it added a couple hundred pounds and made the safe impossible to remove from the apartment without putting bolts to the floor.

Total cost for everything was around $870, and it is one tough fire rated safe made locally here in SoCal.

All of their safes are DOJ approved, and NO I don't work for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pterrell
05-27-2015, 10:15 PM
If a serious pro wants your **** bad enough he's probably gonna get it.

A $200 cabinet bolted to the wall is still better than nothing and will deter a casual thief who's in a hurry.

Who's gonna spend $2K to protect a Mossberg 500 & a couple of glocks?
Sure I won't argue that. Given time any safe can be cracked or broken into. The difference between 12ga or 14ga steel though and, say 2 or 4 ga steel is huge. You go from a sledge hammer, fire Axe or crowbar to cutting wheel or cutting torch with a good amount of time and noise.

L84CABO
05-27-2015, 11:41 PM
oP

How did this work out for you??


All of the following requirements:

Is listed as an Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container;
Is able to fully contain firearms;
Provides for the secure storage of firearms.

Um...this post is from 2009. Are you really expecting an answer? :rolleyes:

Maybe using PM would be better in this instance? ;)

readysetgo
05-27-2015, 11:57 PM
Um...this post is from 2009. Are you really expecting an answer? :rolleyes:



Maybe using PM would be better in this instance? ;)


Oh snap, I been bamboozled into a necro thread. Shame on hermosa.

Librarian
05-28-2015, 12:24 AM
And, the OPs page shows "Last Activity: 07-22-2012 4:30 PM"

Closed.