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Crawfish141
11-08-2009, 12:18 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
Middle of page 23

What is with the DOJ's terminology here? The term seriously sounds almost made up!

Turo
11-08-2009, 12:22 PM
I never understood why they took two words and smushed them together to make something that means "night vision optic"

But,
Sniperscopes
A sniperscope is defined as a device made or adapted for use on a firearm that enables the operator to detect objects during nighttime through the use of a projected infrared light source and an electronic telescope. (Penal Code 468.) Any person who buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or possesses a sniperscope is guilty of a misdemeanor. This prohibition does not apply to authorized use or possession of sniperscopes by members of the armed forces or peace officers, and does not prohibit use or possession solely for scientific research or educational purposes. (Penal Code 468.)

So you can't have/buy/sell/conceal/destroy one, unless it's for educational purposes. LOL "Don't worry officer, I'm learning!"

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 12:24 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
Middle of page 23

What is with the DOJ's terminology here? The term seriously sounds almost made up!
1950's law based on the state of the art in 1940's and 50's night vision technology.
http://www.rt66.com/%7Ekorteng/SmallArms/images/snipscm1.jpg

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/m1irsnip.htm (http://www.rt66.com/%7Ekorteng/SmallArms/m1irsnip.htm)

eaglemike
11-08-2009, 12:27 PM
Sniperscopes
A sniperscope is defined as a device made or adapted for use on a firearm that enables the operator to detect objects during nighttime through the use of a projected infrared light source and an electronic telescope. (Penal Code 468.) Any person who buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or possesses a sniperscope is guilty of a misdemeanor. This prohibition does not apply to authorized use or possession of sniperscopes by members of the armed forces or peace officers, and does not prohibit use or possession solely for scientific research or educational purposes. (Penal Code 468.)

Interesting.... I've not seen many "electronic telescopes." Anyone else seen one lately?

ETA: Actually there's likely a lot of them (night vision types) out there, just don't see them at the shows anymore.

all the best,
Mike

lumwilliam
11-08-2009, 12:41 PM
So how is DOJ handling enforcement? Are they intepreting that 1950's stuff broadly?

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 12:55 PM
1950's law based on the state of the art in 1950's night vision technology.
http://www.rt66.com/%7Ekorteng/SmallArms/images/snipscm1.jpg

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/m1irsnip.htm

Imagine carrying that thing around.

lorax3
11-08-2009, 1:00 PM
A similar thread came up a few weeks ago, I wanted to see how this effected civilian use of PEQ's (http://www.insighttechgear.com/products-peq2a.htm).

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 1:03 PM
So how is DOJ handling enforcement? Are they intepreting that 1950's stuff broadly?
To date no attempts at enforcement (exist as far as I know). A few years ago I consulted a friend of mine who was then an Assistant District Attorney for a California county and he assured me that under the letter of the law, a passive night vision device mounted on a firearm is legal as long as there is not an IR source mounted on the weapon.

Current passive light and thermal bandwidth amplifying weapon sighting systems do not operate the same way as the older active infrared weapon sighting systems that required an infrared source for illumination. Passive systems do operate in the low infrared and can benefit from supplemental infrared illumination, but it is not necessary except in complete darkness.

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 1:05 PM
A similar thread came up a few weeks ago, I wanted to see how this effected civilian use of PEQ's (http://www.insighttechgear.com/products-peq2a.htm).
As long as you don't have an NVD mounted on the rifle, you are legal. In other words, if you were using a head mounted goggles you'd be legal.

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 1:09 PM
I always cringe when this topic comes up. The law has been on the books since the 50's. It's a minor, little known law that could easily be updated to cover modern NVDs with little or no opposition.

Technical Ted
11-08-2009, 1:20 PM
Found an image of a WWII German sniperscope. Check out the size of the power supply!
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4541/vampirw.jpg

GrizzlyGuy
11-08-2009, 3:48 PM
To date no attempts at enforcement (exist as far as I know).

Here's a report of one:

http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=6916&st=0&p=81799&#entry81799

Hateca
11-08-2009, 3:58 PM
I always cringe when this topic comes up. The law has been on the books since the 50's. It's a minor, little known law that could easily be updated to cover modern NVDs with little or no opposition.

Already tried in 1995 and it didn't succeed. http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/95-96/bill/asm/ab_1051-1100/ab_1059_cfa_950417_155505_asm_comm.html

Here's a report of one:

http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=6916&st=0&p=81799&#entry81799

I'm sure there is WAY MORE to this story then is being "told". Actually I don't really care what happened to "his friend", he would have had more credibility if he cited the case info instead of giving out second hand info.

bwiese
11-08-2009, 4:55 PM
In 2006 a Calgunner was popped with supposed unreg'd AWs and sniperscope in the Sierra foothills, IIRC.

The AWs turned out to be reg'd (the DOJ actually reg'd a Bushmaster in 1994!) even though

IIRC ,he got off with a misdemeanor and minor fine and loss of sniper scope.

The ATN night scopes commonly sold mailorder and which have an illuminator should have the illuminator disabled if on a gun in CA.

cyrus
11-09-2009, 10:15 AM
So is it legal to have a modern night vision devise put ahead of your scope?

putput
11-09-2009, 11:08 AM
Wait! I thought that it was a ban on having a laser attached to your rifle? So my Remington 700 can have a laser sighted at 200 yards and a magnified scope and I'm good to go or is that some other law? Also, then night vision scopes are out? Damn this state and it's laws and FUD...

nothing4u
11-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Sure you could have a laser attached to your 700 and a magnified scope if you wanted to and at the range. But as soon as you go hunting with it, the laser is gonna get you a ticket.

Mute
11-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Based on the CA PC, the amplification source has to be an infrared source. Now granted they can still pop you, but it's a simple scientific matter. Either you have a projected light source for your night vision scope or you don't. If you do have a projected light source, then that light has to be an infrared light. If your night vision scope does not meet both of these criteria it is not a "sniperscope." So having a normal (non-NV) magnified scope and a visible laser does not make your setup illegal.

Decoligny
11-09-2009, 12:22 PM
Sniperscopes
A sniperscope is defined as a device made or adapted for use on a firearm that enables the operator to detect objects during nighttime through the use of a projected infrared light source and an electronic telescope. (Penal Code 468.) Any person who buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or possesses a sniperscope is guilty of a misdemeanor. This prohibition does not apply to authorized use or possession of sniperscopes by members of the armed forces or peace officers, and does not prohibit use or possession solely for scientific research or educational purposes. (Penal Code 468.)

Interesting.... I've not seen many "electronic telescopes." Anyone else seen one lately?
ETA: Actually there's likely a lot of them (night vision types) out there, just don't see them at the shows anymore.

all the best,
Mike

I think they are called video cameras with zoom lenses. So, if I mount a videocamera with infra-red mode, onto a rifle, that would be a crime.

nicki
11-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Once we have incorporation, considering that our military conducts alot of missions at night with infared, could we make the argument that infra red or night vision is now becoming common "militia" equipment, as such, constitutes protected equipment?

Nicki

Technical Ted
11-09-2009, 2:33 PM
Also, then night vision scopes are out? Damn this state and it's laws and FUD...
Consider this: most legal hunting of game animals has to take place between sunrise and sunset. Anytime else is pretty much poaching. So if you're out hunting with a rifle mounted NVD, you're poaching.

lumwilliam
11-10-2009, 3:19 PM
As long as you don't have an NVD mounted on the rifle, you are legal. In other words, if you were using a head mounted goggles you'd be legal.

Anyone know how the laws on night vision have been applied in the past? As far as I know it's not like "AW's" where existing ones were grandfathered in. If I went out and got "passive" sights today, and DOJ decided to change their enforcement policies, I could suddenly have something illegal?

Technical Ted
11-10-2009, 3:39 PM
If I went out and got "passive" sights today, and DOJ decided to change their enforcement policies, I could suddenly have something illegal?
They'd have a tough time getting that passed since there have been thousands of cheap handheld Gen I passive devices sold at places like Costco and Big 5.

popndrop
11-12-2009, 10:58 PM
how about the Raytheon TWS? That is good to go?