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View Full Version : WARNING: "MagMagnet" magnetic cap for Bullet Button sold at gunshows: DO NOT USE/BUY!


bwiese
11-07-2009, 7:16 PM
Today at Cow Palace Gunshow I saw a product that made me more than cringe.

It's the "MAG MAGNET" from Mag Magnet, Inc. Their website is at http://www.ar-magmagnet.com but thankfully their website is dead.

The device is a small magnetic cap that fits over the Bullet Button device and allows manual operation of the Bullet Button. It effectively is a new mag catch button operable from one's finger.

I have acquired one from someone who kindly donated it to CGF for discussion/analysis.

THIS PRODUCT, - IF USED/INSTALLED ON AN AR with BULLET-BUTTON MAGLOCK (i.e., an AR build with "features")
WILL TRIGGER ASSAULT WEAPONS STATUS. YOU WILL BE COMMITTING AT LEAST ONE - IF NOT MORE - FELONIES
(MANUFACTURING/POSSESSION OF AN UNREGISTED ASSAULT WEAPON.



The person in the booth selling these was counseled by multiple parties to not sell this.
Most of the traffic at this guy's booth were noobs who are just starting to get into OLLs, or people watching me yell at him



The person staffing the booth carefully demos his device on a 'featureless' build (no PG, no FH, either U15 stock or MM grip)
with needless Bullet Button & 10rd mag, thus not triggering AW status.
His assertions that it's legal are notably absent a "put your money where your mouth is" stance - using it on a BB-maglock'd build with features.



He asserts it's a tool. Whether or not magnetic, the device can stay on a BB device and it then serves as a large mag button
The pkg includes a warning sheet (exact quote except for some abbreviations or possible typos):

"For use in California, do not leave Mag Magnet on rifle at any time. Mag Magnet is intended to be used
as a magazine tool to comply with Title 11 Calif. Code of Regulations Sec. 5469(a) and California Penal
Code 12276.1. Leaving Mag Magnet on firearm mag designate it as an illegal assault weapon in violation of
California law. The CA Dept. of Justice has not taken action on the Mag Magnet.

Do not use Mag Magnet in California on magazines with capacities larger than 10 rounds. It is advised that
Mag Magnet user become familiar with Calif. DOJ requirements and updated interpretations of existing laws
and regulations.

Mag Magnet Inc. shall not be held responsible in any way for the inappropriate use of the product by the
user. User asssumes all liability and risks associated with ownership and use of this product. Mag Magnet
Inc. shall not be held responsible in any way for the inappropriate use of this product by the user. User
assumes all liability and risks associated with ownership and use of this product."






The packages are sealed and buyers have told me they do not get to see the warning sheet before purchase.
During my enquiries I was told the bag was sealed, could not open. It was only verbally described as legal
The vendor says he has had an attorney check it out, a former LA DA. (I'm betting he said "it's legal if
you don't sell it attached to a gun confgured as XXX"....)



THIS PRODUCT IS NOT A TOOL. WHEN MOUNTED ON A BULLET BUTTON IT MAKES THE BULLET BUTTON A
NORMAL FINGER-OPERATED MAG CATCH AND THUS TURNS "FEATURED" AR BUILDS INTO ILLEGAL AWs.


THERE IS NO TIME SPECIFICATION IN THE LAW FOR HOW SHORT OR LONG THIS PRODUCT COULD BE ON A
BulletButton MAG LOCK BEFORE TRIGGERING AW STATUS. THE *INSTANT* THE DEVICE IS ON THE BULLET BUTTON
IT'S A LARGER MAG CATCH BUTTON JUST LIKE THAT OF A STOCK FREE-STATE AR15. There simply is no time limit
allowed in CA law for an illegally-configured AW.



THE SITUATION ON THIS DEVICE IS VERY SIMILAR TO WHY "TOOLS" SHOULD NOT BE ATTACHED VIA STRING
TO A MAGLOCK'D GUN - THEY LIKELY WILL BE REGARDED AS PART OF THE GUN AND NOT A TOOL.


Thiis device would be problematic even if nonmagmentic and held on by friction, gravity, gunk/lube accumulation, etc.


This product is simply NOT needed and only will cause problems:

- it's generally unusable in California

- it's not needed outside CA, where a regular AR mag catch can be dropped in or removed in ~30 seconds.

- the people it's being marketed to are noobs being led down a troublesome path.



PLEASE USE YOUR CALGUNS KNOWLEDGE TO VOCIFEROUSLY DISSUADE OTHERS FROM BUYING/ACQUIRING THESE DEVICES FOR USE ON A GUN.
IF YOU SEE NOOBS AT A GUNSHOW BUYING ARs WITH THEM, PLEASE CAUTION THEM. (Be nice - they thought they had a legit product from a legit vendor.)

While legal in & of itself, these devices put the owner in real danger for multiple felony AW charges - no matter what a former supposed LA DA has said.

The best an owner of such a rifle w/such a device could hope for, if and when charged, is an AB2728 surrender of rifle or misdemeanor or a rare dismissal for nonclarity (highly unlikely).

[NB: The only real use for this product I can see would be for a person like myself with off-list Category 3 (only!) Registered AWs.
Such reg'd AWs could be equipped with Bullet Buttons (providing they're over 30" OAL) and then used with this Mag Magnet device to
be operable AWs at range, yet when transporting them home a 10rd magazine is installed before, locked in by the Bullet Button, and
with no Mag Magnet cap on the BB maglock. At this point the reg'd Cat 3 AW is no longer an AW and can be transported as a non-AW,
and without worry of "specific destination" laws. It also might be used for rimfire vs centerfire exchanges when a rimfire upper is in place.]


IF THE OWNERS/SELLERS OF THE MAG MAGNET WANT TO COME HERE AND DISCUSS THEIR PRODUCT'S LEGALITY AND SALES STRATEGY, FINE.

IF THEY WANT TO SUE ME FOR DEFAMING THEIR PRODUCT OR ORGANIZATION, FINE. (Take a friggin' number.)


Please let me know if you find vendors/gunshops selling these devices, rifles being imported into California with these installed, or FFLs selling fixed-mag/BB'd rifles equipped with these.


At least the Latino dude selling various AR, etc. parts stopped selling Glock forward grips and buttstocks when warned; he just didn't know.

BroncoBob
11-07-2009, 7:22 PM
Thanks Bill for getting this information out.

thedrickel
11-07-2009, 7:24 PM
It was very convenient . . . I bought an AR from CWS, crossed the aisle and bought a mag magnet, and I was ready to rock! CWS even said they would install it for me for 35$! :D

missiondude
11-07-2009, 7:28 PM
I was looking for one of these to use when my dedicated 22lr upper is being used. Is there a problem with that?

grunz
11-07-2009, 7:28 PM
Thanks for the post Bill. I saw this fellow at the Cow Palace today and he wouldn't state either way whether or not it it was legal to put it on a BB AR.

I did however think it spoke volumes that he only demoed his product on a featureless monsterman AR. When I asked him what use this was on such a gun - sine it could have a real mag release - he just shrugged.

I've seen magnet TOOLS before but they were sold and advertised as such. This thing is marketed as a solution and and not just a tool. There is dangerous implication in the message.

Alaric
11-07-2009, 7:29 PM
Thanks for the heads up Bill. I have a few questions on behalf of the devils advocacy.

What specifically separates this implement from other "tools" used to manipulate a BB?

Is it the magnetic aspect that "attaches" it to the BB? Too permanent?

Is it the fact that it can somehow stay attached to the BB in spite of the magnetism (due to gravity or friction or whatever)?

If so, should anything magnetic (say, a light screwdriver with a magnetic tip) be likewise avoided?

Clearly, this implement is treading in a gray area of the law, and users should be very wary of using this in California (I wouldn't). My concern is that if this implement is being marketed as a "tool" and not an "accessory" then wouldn't it reside in the same territory as muzzle breaks (legal) vs. flash suppressors(illegal), if you get my drift?

Harley
11-07-2009, 7:31 PM
My cousin and I saw this at the Ontario Gun show and questioned the seller, he stated that he had a letter with a disclaimer from his lawyer in the packaging with the magnet clarifying the legalities. :eek:

We turned around and walked away. :D

badreligion
11-07-2009, 7:36 PM
The same device was being sold at the Ventura gun show today as well. $25 dollars each. I watched them demo it several times and passed, especially when they turned the rifle over, shook it and their device didn't fall out due to the magnet. In my opinion if you shake something like this and the "tool" doesn't fall out or off it is meant to stay thier no longer making it a "tool" but an accessory. A drill is a tool, a drill bit is an accessory. I think most people passed because of the cost, not because of the legal reasons. Thanks for getting this word out Bill.

jaymz
11-07-2009, 7:39 PM
I was looking for one of these to use when my dedicated 22lr upper is being used. Is there a problem with that?

Don't need maglock for rimfires. But no, I would not use one for the simple fact that you would be supporting a manufacturer that seems to be misleading people that don't know any better, down a VERY slippery slope.

professorhard
11-07-2009, 7:45 PM
Why's it such a big deal? Plenty of people switch between .22 uppers and bolt conversions and centerfire uppers. It'd be easier to just pop this on when a rimfire upper is attached, easier than having to switch out the standard mag release everytime.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 7:48 PM
What specifically separates this implement from other "tools" used to manipulate a BB?

Any tool a la a 'bullet tip' (specifically mentioned in the law) and that momentarily contacts the maglock latch and is not supported, retained, tied to, or mounted on the gun would be fine. This includes screwdrivers, knife blade tips, little Velcro'd plastic finger pointer tips on your fingertip, etc.

It likely does NOT include a screwdriver hanging from your AR on a string, or a detachable cap on a mag catch that can stay on and be operated with a finger.


Is it the magnetic aspect that "attaches" it to the BB? Too permanent?


As I said, even if were nonmagnetic it could still stay on and be regarded as part of the gun, a "big mag catch button that's loose/not screwed down".

I'd dissuade anyone from using any device that can rest on/by the BulletButton, in some or many particular rifle position(s) and still be used.

A bullet tip or other analogue ("long skinny tippy thing") a la screwdriver, etc. will indeed not be able to "reside" in the hole or be considered offending. A cap that fits over the BB and that can hang out there unsupported by hand and which can activate the mag lock can be regarded as a "non-tool" and part of one of the rifle's subsystems.




Is it the fact that it can somehow stay attached to the BB in spite of the magnetism (due to gravity or friction or whatever)?

Yup.

Let's say we had something like pill bottle cap or lid with a dimple inside that could rest on the BB (or be taped on it) and activate it. I'd say that use of that kind of device should be avoided.


If so, should anything magnetic (say, a light screwdriver with a magnetic tip) be likewise avoided?

I don't really think any magnetic-tipped screwdriver should be worried about, I don't think they support their own weight and their ability to maintain a positional relaitonship w/rifle & BB opening is marginal. Furthermore, a screwdriver itself has the advantage of being a 'tool'

my concern is that if this implement is being marketed as a "tool" and not an "accessory" then wouldn't it reside in the same territory as muzzle breaks (legal) vs. flash suppressors(illegal), if you get my drift?

Yes and No. Bottom line, you get 'detachable mag' status that triggers AW status with this device.

Muzzle brakes and flash hiders at least have documentation of screwups by DOJ in the Hunt case. While all AW-triggering features should in theory have equal priority, I think MB/FH issues are far more defendable if the person buys a device that is marketed as a MB and looks like one. Furthermore, there's no great test for MB vs FH issues - whereas the test for detachable mag status is pretty easy to understand/observe.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 7:51 PM
Why's it such a big deal? Plenty of people switch between .22 uppers and bolt conversions and centerfire uppers. It'd be easier to just pop this on when a rimfire upper is attached, easier than having to switch out the standard mag release everytime.

If indeed it were sold with that and marketed with that and the guy had an "application sheet" viewable before sale, I'd be somewhat happier.

But those folks are relatively few. Most folks are buying 5.56 ARs and the noobs are looking for shortcuts and this guy is appealing to that mindset.

Remember, one reason we at CGF really support the BB device over earlier screwdown mag locks is because DAs were well aware that quite a few asshats were loosening their maglocks.

What I see here, bottom line, is a dude that wants to make $25 sales without caring about his gunnies/customers getting popped. The fact that apparently his warning sheet is not viewable outside the package before the sale, as reported to me, is also most disturbing.

EOD3
11-07-2009, 7:52 PM
Some people work tirelessly to raise stupidity to a fine art.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
11-07-2009, 7:53 PM
I saw it too. It is a worthless $25 item that is going to get someone in trouble.

They advertise it as being so easy to use. Well... on a featureless AR with a Monster Man Grip, you don't even need a BB. If you get caught with that thing on a Pistol grip, you are screwed.

It's a Scam and that company shouldn't be allowed in the shows.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 7:53 PM
Thanks for the post Bill. I saw this fellow at the Cow Palace today and he wouldn't state either way whether or not it it was legal to put it on a BB AR.

That may've been after our little drama earlier in the afternoon.

I did however think it spoke volumes that he only demoed his product on a featureless monsterman AR.

You and I agree - says volumes, doesn't it?

When I asked him what use this was on such a gun - sine it could have a real mag release - he just shrugged.

Yep - and contrast that with the info about legal parts use you get from any of the other quality vendors at the show. Most vendors want their customers to stay out of trouble and come back for future sales; felony charges put a damper on that.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 7:55 PM
I saw it too. It is a worthless $25 item that is going to get someone in trouble.

They advertise it as being so easy to use. Well... on a featureless AR with a Monster Man Grip, you don't even need a BB. If you get caught with that thing on a Pistol grip, you are screwed.

Correct (rimfires and registered AWs are exceptions, but those are a very small subset of market and the way it's being sold obviously does not worry about or deal with these distinctions).

It's a Scam and that company shouldn't be allowed in the shows.

I have spoken with management. They're very nice people. Somehow, though, they feel they'll get an answer from DOJ which I doubt - or I'd doubt the correctness of one way or another.

Hogxtz
11-07-2009, 7:56 PM
Untill I had spent many hours on these forums and became educated on the murky gun laws of Calif, I very well could have walked out of a gun show with one of those magnets and not known any different.

That's a horrible thing to sell to an unsuspecting person that is new to AR's. To think some person could find themselves in the back of a patrol car with serious charges with their whole life turned upside down because of deception is just plain scary.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
11-07-2009, 7:59 PM
I agree. But If the Gun Shows, NRA, Calguns and all the rest of us want to keep the politicians at bay, this kind of product needs to be shut down.

EOD3
11-07-2009, 8:03 PM
Given that the device MUST attach to the magazine catch itself (unless they've invented an aluminum magnet), all they're doing is extending the recessed magazine catch. :(

bwiese
11-07-2009, 8:04 PM
Given that the device MUST attach to the magazine catch itself (unless they've invented an aluminum magnet), all they're doing is extending the recessed magazine catch. :(

Yup.

bodger
11-07-2009, 8:04 PM
It sounds like it would be just as bad as using the standard mag release.

Maybe the DOJ will clear it up for them. Yeeah.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 8:06 PM
It sounds like it would be just as bad as using the standard mag release.

Maybe the DOJ will clear it up for them. Yeeah.

Nope.

And I think some at DOJ would like to see some folks get hung up so that people panic and stop buying OLLs.

I'd like to get another 200+K OLLs in CA as soon as possible. But we need to stop both FUD and entrapping/bad information and walk the narrow white line.

goober
11-07-2009, 8:11 PM
thanks bwiese...
coming up with a product and selling it is great...
but misleading folks, even by omission, just to sell them something that could very well land them in jail, is NOT cool.
as always, you and hoffmang and others do us a great service by continuing to look out for our best interests.

alain209
11-07-2009, 8:31 PM
thanks for the info.

hawk81
11-07-2009, 8:38 PM
A sucker is born everyday.

Alaric
11-07-2009, 8:47 PM
Thanks for the followup on my questions Bill, good clarification on the issues at hand.

It seems there's a fairly fine line between a "tool" and an "accessory", and the distinction should be made as clear as possible, whenever possible. Since the DOJ refuses to play ball and in fact seems intent on muddying the waters and spreading FUD, it becomes incumbent on us to provide this delineation. As usual, you've done the California firearms community another great service.

artherd
11-07-2009, 8:56 PM
It's not a tool if it's part of the gun.

This walks over that line, and is not suitable for use in CA.

MP301
11-07-2009, 9:07 PM
Ill take it!

I saw this Magnetic button here on calguns in the commercial section a few months ago. Dont know if its the same people that were at the gunshow, but there were calgunners buying it.

However, in this case, it was marketed exactly how it should have been. For use outside of California so you dont have to screw with changing your mag button. I am guilty of this laziness and I know several otehrs are as well!

I think its a great product if marketed correctly, but it sounds like the guy at the gunshow was not doing his job at educating folks so he could get a quick sale. Not good.

And, the one advertized here was only $10....

here found a links..Solar Tactical

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=207212&highlight=magnetic

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=201257&highlight=magnetic

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=219482&highlight=magnetic

joefrank64k
11-07-2009, 9:07 PM
Were they similar to the magnetic "Rapid Release Button" being sold by Solar Tactical?

http://solartactical.com/product.sc?productId=6&categoryId=20

He advertises them for use on .22LR or out-of-state...he was selling them here on CalGuns for a while, but he CLEARLY said they were for .22LR or OOS use.

ricochet
11-07-2009, 9:56 PM
Not same as the Solar device. Just a little oval shaped piece of plastic containing a magnet on the back that would "attach" to the bullet button. On one part of his packaging, he says the word "tool" but because it attaches itself to the BB, I think that's a hard sell.

A couple ways to look at this is the guy that's selling it is trying to dupe people (noobs) into thinking he's selling a little piece of plastic, that won't put them in jail. The other way to think of it is that the guy is also selling it to people who know the law and will casually palm the device if the gun is to be inspected (nudge, nudge; wink, wink).

Either way, he's scum ...

oaklander
11-07-2009, 10:03 PM
What a douche!

I will also talk to him tomorrow.

Trench Broom
11-07-2009, 10:48 PM
This guy needs to market his product correctly, or get shut down ASAP.

dwtt
11-07-2009, 10:52 PM
Couldn't someone give the seller a copy of the OLL flow chart? He should be able to figure it out after a few minutes.

Cokebottle
11-07-2009, 11:07 PM
Couldn't someone give the seller a copy of the OLL flow chart? He should be able to figure it out after a few minutes.
The seller obviously knows the law, because he is demonstrating the unit on a featureless AR.

The issue is that the conditional warning that their attorney wrote for the product is sealed inside the package, and he is actively marketing it to people who don't know the law and have non-featureless AR models.

Mag Magnet
11-07-2009, 11:13 PM
Hello all,
First off, I would like to apologize for any confusion. It has never been our intent to deceive anyone by accident or on purpose. This is only our second week selling these and we are still working on the best approach for marketing our product. The packages are sealed on purpose to ensure that our legal warning is included with every Mag. Magnet sold and will be read by the purchaser. Anyone that is interested, is welcome to read the legal warning before making the choice to purchase. Our Ventura show had an open package with the legal warning on the table. I was not at the San Francisco show and I regret that the legal warning may not have been out in the open for customers to read. I will make sure that it is properly displayed at all future show tables. We do our best to make sure any potential customers are aware of the limitations of the Mag. Magnet.
Our website is not dead – it is currently under construction and will be fully operational in a couple of weeks. The website will also have a legal warning and user agreement that must be agreed to in order to make a purchase. Once again we are not trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. Some of our largest purchases were made by FFLs. In fact, we are firearms enthusiasts as well and do not want anyone to do anything that may be considered to be illegal. Ultimately, firearms can be deadly weapons and it is the responsibility of the user to operate their gun in a safe and legal manner. Sales staff training will be even more comprehensive to make sure our employees are not misleading anyone or disseminating false information.
If anyone has any problems with a purchase from us, please bring your Mag. Magnet back to us in good condition at any gun show and we will give you a full refund. The card included on the packaging has our contact number. Please call us at 619-490-0830 first before blasting us on an online forum so we can try to resolve any issues. I will check PM’s as often as possible as well.
P.S. – Our table at the Ventura show was next to JD Machine but we are not affiliated with them in any way.
With respect to all,
MAG. MAGNET INC

technique
11-07-2009, 11:15 PM
and the plot thickens

bwiese
11-07-2009, 11:16 PM
Specific other firms, selling such a device with express caveats for limited circumstances, are not the problem.

The AR MagMagnet is being sold in bland terms in a sealed package with any warnings only discoverable after the sale.

Some people will do skanky things for $25, and not all those people are crack whores.

bwiese
11-07-2009, 11:31 PM
First off, I would like to apologize for any confusion. It has never been our intent to deceive anyone by accident or on purpose.

Well, the actions of your SF show staff - and the actions of staff elsewhere at other shows also reported to me - seems to indicate you are trying to sell as a general use product an item that has only specific, very very limited uses in narrow circumstances.

The fact your dude(s) demo a featureless OLL - which doesn't need a Bullet-Button-affixed mag anyway - speaks worlds.

This is only our second week selling these and we are still
working on the best approach for marketing our product. OK, I'll write your blurb and save you the effort:
"95% of the time this product will make a CA OLL rifle with
features into an illegal assault weapon in California. The
rest of the time it's not needed because the rifle's mag
status is irrelevant."

The packages are sealed on purpose to ensure that our legal warning is included with every Mag. Magnet sold and will be read by the purchaser. Anyone that is interested, is welcome to read the legal warning before making the choice to purchase. Our Ventura show had an open package with the legal warning on the table. I was not at the San Francisco show and I regret that the legal warning may not have been out in the open for customers to read. I will make sure that it is properly displayed at all future show tables. We do our best to make sure any potential customers are aware of the limitations of the Mag. Magnet. If you do that, you won't sell any. I interviewed several folks walking away from the booth at the SF Cow Palace show. Most were thinking it was an alternate to the bullet button that allowed manual removal of a magazine.

Some smarter folks, already understanding of CA law, walked away knowing there were problems - and that the device loses any "tool" status when it's hanging on the BulletButton.

Furthermore, even if it's taken on & off in a moment, that's irrelevant: there's no "minimum time restriction" on felony conduct.

the website will have a warning and user agreement that must be agreed to in order to make a purchase. If you really disclose the limitations on this product very few will buy it:
1. it's not legally usable on a CA OLL w/BB maglock & 12276.1PC features
2. someone travelling out of state can uninstall BB & add regular
mag catch (and reverse it before returning to CA);
3. it is maybe useful to those converting btwn rimfire vs centerfire uppers on same lower;
4. it is usable to some with registered Category 3 AWs having BBs installed, so the BB can take gun out of AW status for more relaxed transport requirements.


Once again we are not trying to make a quick buck at the expense
of others. Some of our largest purchases were made by FFLs. We are already hearing of FFLs thinking this 'solves' the Bullet Button "problem".

Sales staff training will be even more comprehensive to make sure our employees are not misleading anyone or disseminating false information. Start from scratch with the dude at the Cow Palace. He failed IQ 101.


Please call us at 619-490-0830 first before blasting us on an online forum so we can try to resolve any issues. I will check PM’s as often as possible as well. When dozens (or how many other) folks are buying a product that can likely turn them into instant felons for its most direct, obvious application, we Calgunners DO speak up.

I witnessed quite a few folks today that thought they could have manually detachable mag ARs with this device, as long as BB was installed.

Again, this is NOT true. This product can be used ONLY in the ways I've listed it above (and perhaps also as a cat toy).

badreligion
11-07-2009, 11:37 PM
Mag Magnet - I viewed your sales table for several minutes today and it seamed to me you were more interested in selling your product to whomever wanted to spend the $25 rather than inform potential customers about the hazards they may face when using your product. When I veiwed someone from your booth turn the rifle over and shake it to show a potential customer 'that it would be hard to lose while shooting their rifle', I walked away. Most vendors who sell items at gun shows that may be questionable to either an informed or uninformed buyer tend to put up a facts sheet to help inform potential customers.

Your product may potential cost someone their future freedom to own firearms.

Bill, I stole your last line.

383green
11-07-2009, 11:39 PM
This product can be used ONLY in the ways I've listed it above (and perhaps also as a cat toy).

It would make a better cat toy if it had a laser built in.

lomalinda
11-07-2009, 11:42 PM
Good job articulating why this device is a steaming piece of ****, Bill et al.

technique
11-07-2009, 11:45 PM
Bill et al.

What is that? Is that like belittle? Be- lit- al? Bill et al? LOL

goober
11-07-2009, 11:46 PM
Mag Magnet-
Kudos for having the stones to come here and discuss this issue. That's a step in the right direction. Now, hopefully you will do the right thing: take the concerns being voiced by bwiese and others to heart, and either stop selling your product, or if you insist on continuing to sell it, do so only with full disclosure as to the very limited ways in which it can be legally used. Sounds like you need to fire or educate and better supervise your show staff as well.

Mag Magnet
11-07-2009, 11:58 PM
It would make a better cat toy if it had a laser built in.

Suggestion taken, keep an eye out forthe new improved laser version. ; )

dirtnap
11-08-2009, 12:03 AM
I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

kf6tac
11-08-2009, 12:03 AM
If you really disclose the limitations on this product very few will buy it:
1. it's not legally usable on a CA OLL w/BB maglock & 12276.1PC features
2. someone travelling out of state can uninstall BB & add regular
mag catch (and reverse it before returning to CA);
3. it is maybe useful to those converting btwn rimfire vs centerfire uppers on same lower;
4. it is usable to some with registered Category 3 AWs having BBs installed, so the BB can take gun out of AW status for more relaxed transport requirements.


I think 2 & 3 are really the market that Mag Magnet should be angling for. Market to both groups by pointing out that it's quicker to slap on a little magnetic add-on than it is to uninstall the BB and add a regular mag catch. For all other people, make it abundantly clear on something that is provided EXTERNAL to the sealed package (i.e. something that buyers can read BEFORE buying) that they can't legally use it on their BB-equipped OLLs in-state.

Mag Magnet
11-08-2009, 12:15 AM
We are trying to fix the concerns stated above. I do NOT want people to think they is a way around CA's BS. It would be helpful if anyone can offer positive suggestions to help negate issues we may have.
I do think there is a place for our product, but there is limitations on it's usage, just like a whole lot of CA type products.
What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was considered by many to be illegal. The CA AW law is poorly written, and even now a lot of guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec. We are not trying to scam anybody or mislead "noobs" into buying something that they will use incorrectly.
OLL rules and regs can be very convoluted to the uneducated. We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

Seesm
11-08-2009, 12:15 AM
I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

IF At home is in CA your a felon my man... Careful what you say on here. PM me after you delete yours and I will delete this.

Vectrexer
11-08-2009, 12:16 AM
I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

I would disagree for product that has this narrow of a usage.

Mag Magnet know exactly what this product is and why you would want to use it. Especially why a buyer would want to use it in California.

A waiver sealed inside a package is not good enough this time around. A prominent sign on the table with a reminder to review it before leaving would be a prudent thing for Mag Magnet to do. I'd be happy to drop by Bill's reply inside a an 8x10 plastic holder for their table tomorrow if Mag Magnet desires.

I wouldn't touch it inside of Kali and would have no use for it outside of California. Except maybe as a fridge magnet. But then I have plenty of old hard drives from which to make fridge magnets.

To Mag Magnet,, thanks for showing up here to discuss your product. Big balls to sell the product and even bigger ones to back it up. Well done for having the guts!

Mag Magnet
11-08-2009, 12:21 AM
and the plot thickens

Thicker than my mother-in-law's beer belly.

Mag Magnet
11-08-2009, 12:28 AM
I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.

Vectrexer
11-08-2009, 12:32 AM
I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.


100% awesome. Thanks! (but I still wouldn't recommend your product to anyone.)

Mag Magnet
11-08-2009, 12:41 AM
and the plot thickens

100% awesome. Thanks! (but I still wouldn't recommend your product to anyone.)

That's OK, I don't recommend your product to anyone either.

Trey1191
11-08-2009, 12:42 AM
Now here's my problem with the product/sales pitch
I was told by the man running the booth that it was totally legal to have ON your firearm. Not just to use as a tool and immediately remove, and even though I'm new to the whole AR seen, but it doesn't exactly sound legal for what it was being pitched to me for. If you support your product so much you'd think you wouldn't have the monster man grips with a "sorta" locked 10 round mags.

now for the positive reinforcement
If you made a separate (but in package) 2-3 inch metal or even a plastic rod that would attach to the back of it and played off that the magnet is to help align the tool easier It would seem less like the mag catch extension that it is as well as look more like a tool. That way you don't have to redesign your tool and it can still fill the function for your .22 upper or out of state by simply removing the rod.

artherd
11-08-2009, 1:06 AM
What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

I would think that would be a minimum necessity.

dantodd
11-08-2009, 1:15 AM
It's like passing out holey condemns in the tenderloin with a note inside saying they don't prevent pregnancy or transmission of STDs.

Perfectly accurate. Nearly useless. Misleading as hell.

nicki
11-08-2009, 1:26 AM
Potentially a trap for anyone who has an AR in a featureless mode.

The bullet button was a clever way to work in compliance with AB23 so that we could have AR pattern rifles while complying with a bad law by removing the ability to "detach" the magazine without the use of a tool.

The "bullet button" is pushing the edge as it is.

I just hope some gun owner doesn't get into legal trouble by buying one of these devices and using it on a bullet button AR.

But then again, it is difficult to stop stupid.

Nicki

unusedusername
11-08-2009, 1:39 AM
Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal. I am not aware of them prosecuting anyone for it yet, however it will come. The reason that they decided that it is illegal is because some people could pull back the screw and allow it to be used as a regular mag release button.

This is similar to how someone could put your product on a featured BBed AR and turn it into an AW.

If you are selling this make sure to get very good legal representation before you start ramping up sales.

Please ignore this post. I'm corrected below by bwise, who knows way more then I do...

dirtnap
11-08-2009, 2:01 AM
IF At home is in CA your a felon my man... Careful what you say on here. PM me after you delete yours and I will delete this.

Meh, I'm not worried. No need to delete anything....since I Dont actually own one of those tools. If I did I would keep it on at home. I'm not a criminal, I don't engage in illegal activities, and I'm not afraid of the big bad gooberment.

ke6guj
11-08-2009, 2:12 AM
Meh, I'm not worried. No need to delete anything....since I Dont actually own one of those tools. If I did I would keep it on at home. I'm not a criminal, I don't engage in illegal activities, and I'm not afraid of the big bad gooberment.ok that you don't own one and don't engage in illegal activites, but if you did own own and did keep it attached to the BB at home, it Would be an illegal activity.

KaTooM
11-08-2009, 2:17 AM
I have to agree that it is shady to sell a device to override a magazine locked(BB) equipped AR-15. There is alot of FUD and uncertainty out there already, lets not provide the DOJ with ammo to say the BB is ineffective because of this or that device.

Maybe you should call it the "Cop Magnet?"

Another informitive thread by B Wise.

bwiese
11-08-2009, 8:04 AM
Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal.


Whoa not quite.

No they haven't. The DOJ has said zero on this issue lately (initially they were trying to say all OLLs were AWs etc. but that's long over).

The issue is that *some DAs* think the P50 is too easy to loosen and there is elevated suspicion that a P50 gun may well be illegal and such a configuration may be treated more aggressively in those jurisdictions.

But CGF can indeed defend a screwed-down P50 - but it's easier to just say "go to a BulletButton", where the latching behavior is clear and nothing accidentally comes loose.
Why waste time/effort?

Mitch
11-08-2009, 8:17 AM
Ultimately, firearms can be deadly weapons and it is the responsibility of the user to operate their gun in a safe and legal manner.

WTF?

bwiese
11-08-2009, 8:30 AM
We are trying to fix the concerns stated above. I do NOT want people
to think they is a way around CA's BS. It would be helpful if anyone can offer positive suggestions to help negate issues we may have.

Then you need to IMMEDIATELY include statements like this:"This device is only legal for use in CA on
1. rimfire off-list ARs;
2. registered assault weapons;
3. configurations not requiring nondetachable magazines
This device should NEVER be used (even for a fraction of a second) to remove any nondetachable
magazine affixed to an AR by a "Bullet Button"-type device.

This device is NOT an allowed "tool" encompassed in the CA regulatory definition of "detachable
magazine" per 11 CCR 5469(a)."

I do think there is a place for our product, but there is limitations on it's usage, just like a whole lot of CA type products. What do you want? A handout to read before purchase? That's a start along with a full recouching of sales/pitch to indicate its ultra-specific, narrow range of usefulness.

I think it's safe to say that if your product were marketed honestly and with the clear restrictions outlined pre-sale above, I don't think you will get enough sales to pay for booth fees at gunshows.

This is NOT a wide-application product like the BulletButton. It does NOT make the BulletButton "better" for 95% (likely more) of the BulletButton's users.

The use of a featureless AR in the demo/sales pitch is, IHMO, well-nigh fraudulent.

Your sales guy at the Cow Palace needs to be canned or caned. From what I've heard of other booths at other shows there likely are similar situations at shows eleswhere.

PEOPLE WILL GO TO JAIL IF THEY LISTEN TO THIS IDIOT AT THE COW PALACE, OR TRY TO INFER ANYTHING FROM HIS STATEMENTS.



I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was
considered by many to be illegal.What "by many" means is irrelevant. This is not a "voting" or "belief" situation. What I and others above write about your product is "From The Horse's Mouth".

We understood the law, the court decisions and regulations. We walked a very narrow line and in fact avoided certain situations initially even though they were likely legal until we got REAL GUN LAWYERS' information.


guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others Fine, that's on them. At least information exists so they can not screw up if they don't want to. And products are usu sold to them with caveats.

Your product as sold, demonstrated, couched, implied, etc. yesterday and likely elsewhere was certainly NOT properly described.

The honest nonconfusing approach is with my blurb above, and: "...this product is a special application product useful for specific limited circumstances".

If you don't like it, don't buy it.We're trying to make sure of that.

If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec.
Properly-configured OLL rifles are of unquestioned legality. Your product, used in the way your representatives are selling it, is illegal for 95+% of the trade in OLLs.

I also think you've been called out here and are merely responding with "damage mitigation" - and if this thread did not exist your practices would not change.

We are not trying to scam anybody or mislead "noobs" into buying something that they will use incorrectly.Your sales pitch and booth staffer I and many others saw indeed was. Reports of your booth's activities at other shows has already reached us.

OLL rules and regs can be very convoluted to the uneducated. We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

Unreg'd AWs, if listed/banned by name, are not turned into non-AWs thru changes to configured features suites.

One of the few legit uses for your product is on *registered AWs* -- using the BB to allow unrestricted transportation of a reg'd AW as a non-AW, and using your device to overcome the BB to allow manually detachable magazines.

But as a vendor you are held to a higher standard, esp when possibly criminal outcomes are likely when used with the most common legal application of the BB.

Now we have to go clean up the misinformation that has moved from you guys thru your vendors.

bodger
11-08-2009, 9:22 AM
This is an unnecessary piece of crap, and is bound to cause problems.

Guaranteed some noob is going to buy one from a salesman at a gun show who doesn't know s**t either and there will be a felony AW arrest.

We've got the BB, it pisses me off, but I can live with it.

Junk like this gets the DOJ's attention and the next thing you know we'll be riveting our mags in and toploading to avoid being a felon.

Cop magnet indeed.

You go out of state, you put your standard mag release back in and assemble your 30 round mags and rock and roll. It's part of the fun of going to a free state for shooting. Shucking the CA crap off your damn fine rifle.

This is BS, and irresponsible to allow them to be sold the way they were yesterday. And on a demonstrator that didn't qualify as an AW with this thing installed.
Gimme a break. Friggin' felony trap for the uninformed.

RobG
11-08-2009, 9:39 AM
We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

FYI, putting a bullet button on a "listed" reciever does not make it legal, if that is what occurred.

mej16489
11-08-2009, 9:55 AM
I think 2 & 3 are really the market that Mag Magnet should be angling for. Market to both groups by pointing out that it's quicker to slap on a little magnetic add-on than it is to uninstall the BB and add a regular mag catch. For all other people, make it abundantly clear on something that is provided EXTERNAL to the sealed package (i.e. something that buyers can read BEFORE buying) that they can't legally use it on their BB-equipped OLLs in-state.


I really like the concept of Option 3 as well (turn a Cat3 RAW into a non-RAW for transport) - it actually makes me wish my RAWs weren't named

B Strong
11-08-2009, 10:29 AM
Good catch Bill, I hope our people keep this in mind, and the manufacturer/seller takes the hint and ceases and desists.

goober
11-08-2009, 10:33 AM
THIS:
Whoa not quite.

No they haven't. The DOJ has said zero on this issue lately (initially they were trying to say all OLLs were AWs etc. but that's long over).

The issue is that *some DAs* think the P50 is too easy to loosen and there is elevated suspicion that a P50 gun may well be illegal and such a configuration may be treated more aggressively in those jurisdictions.

But CGF can indeed defend a screwed-down P50 - but it's easier to just say "go to a BulletButton", where the latching behavior is clear and nothing accidentally comes loose.
Why waste time/effort?

NOT THIS:
Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal. I am not aware of them prosecuting anyone for it yet, however it will come. The reason that they decided that it is illegal is because some people could pull back the screw and allow it to be used as a regular mag release button.


thanks for the clarification bwiese, the post by unusedusername was a bit off the mark....

bwiese
11-08-2009, 10:39 AM
I really like the concept of Option 3 as well (turn a Cat3 RAW into a non-RAW for transport) - it actually makes me wish my RAWs weren't named

2/3 of ARs and AKs made the Kasler list in Fall 2000. Rarer ones and new (at the time) ones didn't make it, and were "freed" from "series" constraints when Harrott hit in June 2001. There likely are a whole slough of AKs as reg'd AWs that are Category 3 - perhaps moreso than the ARs.

I'm one of the fortunate few having a couple of Category 3 ARs ("American Spirit Arms ASA-15"). Turns out when they formulated the"Kasler" list, DOJ staff didn't sit long enough on the can reading Shotgun News.

bigcalidave
11-08-2009, 5:09 PM
Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!

Cokebottle
11-08-2009, 5:31 PM
Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!
It's a catch-22 where the way the law is written is counter-productive to it's intent.

As I understand it (and I may be wrong):
AW has a detachable mag. Detachable mags or "featureless builds" are GTG with high-capacity pre-ban mags.
Fixed mags are limited to 10rds, even if the build is otherwise "featureless".

bwiese
11-08-2009, 5:44 PM
Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!

No. 'Named' reg'd AWs do not lose their AW status by characteristic feature status.

There is a chance - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, KIDDIES! - that a banned by name reg'd AW loses AW status if it's not semiautomatic (i.e, gas system removed, etc.)

A Category 3 reg'd AW, however, can have sufficient characteristic features removed, or other attributes changed [fixed mag, nonsemiauto, etc.] to pull it out of AW status for purposes of transport, shipment, etc. - though its registration just allows it to be reassembled into AW status again. [This is straight from former DOJ FD head Randy Rossi and former DOJ Asst Dir/Dept AG Tim Rieger, with a slough of witnesses including Don Kilmer and Jess Guy.]

One of the other "wonders of CA AW world" is that a good ol' regular non-AW semiauto rifle, with a legal hicap magazine inserted, becomes an AW if the hicap mag is fixed/screwed down (BB/maglock, etc.)

ricochet
11-08-2009, 6:27 PM
Be aware that giving you "a chance to work it out" is turning the majority of your customers (98% or more) into felons.

If you're as responsible as you want us to believe you are, you would, without hesitation or need of suggestion, shutdown reckless sales of this product immediately and "work it out" without turning a bunch of law abiding and otherwise responsible people into felons without their knowledge. Fine print is not responsible, forthright and straightforward presentation of factual information is.

Demonstrating your product in California on a rifle with features (like an AR with a pistol grip) would also be a way of making as believe that you "honestly" believe your product is legal to use (talk is cheap). If you can't do that because it is in conflict with you "warning" then how do California residents with bullet button mags and rifles with features use the product for the several second period that's required to change out a magazine ?

There's your chance ...
I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
11-08-2009, 7:45 PM
So... Was there a change at today's show?

Nodda Duma
11-08-2009, 8:29 PM
So.. when a customer uses this device and gets arrested and charged with felony possession of an assault weapon, what happens to the guys who sold the ignorant customer the device? It doesn't sound like he gives a crap what happens to his customers, would be nice if he had to suffer the consequences of negligently setting them up to face future felony charges...not that I have any faith in the ability of the justice system to do so.

I'm hoping to God that the AWB is struck down before anyone is arrested for using this magnetic AW maker.

-Jason

bodger
11-08-2009, 8:32 PM
Be aware that giving you "a chance to work it out" is turning the majority of your customers (98% or more) into felons.

If you're as responsible as you want us to believe you are, you would, without hesitation or need of suggestion, shutdown reckless sales of this product immediately and "work it out" without turning a bunch of law abiding and otherwise responsible people into felons without their knowledge. Fine print is not responsible, forthright and straightforward presentation of factual information is.

Demonstrating your product in California on a rifle with features (like an AR with a pistol grip) would also be a way of making as believe that you "honestly" believe your product is legal to use (talk is cheap). If you can't do that because it is in conflict with you "warning" then how do California residents with bullet button mags and rifles with features use the product for the several second period that's required to change out a magazine ?

There's your chance ...


Exactly! What good is ANY product like this if it cannot legally remain attatched to the rifle's mag release? You might as well install the standard release, equally illegal it would seem.

I use a .223 round with no primer and no powder in it on a retractable key chain that I clip to my jacket or shirt.

This is a B.S. product, represented as a legal alternative to using a tool to activate the bullet button.

Cokebottle
11-08-2009, 8:32 PM
So.. when a customer uses this device and gets arrested and charged with felony possession of an assault weapon, what happens to the guys who sold the ignorant customer the device?
Civil case, possibly, but it's not a crime to sell a magnet that potentially has an illegal use any more than it is a crime to sell a gun that potentially has an illegal use (though the Bradys want to change that).

bodger
11-08-2009, 8:38 PM
Civil case, possibly, but it's not a crime to sell a magnet that potentially has an illegal use any more than it is a crime to sell a gun that potentially has an illegal use (though the Bradys want to change that).


And this thing apparently comes with a full disclaimer and warning, but only after you open the package do you see it.

This whole thing stinks if you ask me. What really ticked me off was the fact that they were using a featureless rifle to demonstrate the thing. And touting it as a way around the bullet button law.

I wonder how many of these have been sold to people who aren't aware of the actual laws and aren't reading anything on CG.

oaklander
11-08-2009, 8:39 PM
First off, OLL's are still in California largely due to the work of about five people. Bill is one of the main ones, so make sure you heed what he is saying.

I've also done my part too. In fact, I helped draft a petition to the OAL (California Office of Administrative Law) that prevented the DOJ from passing an underground regulation that would have taken a very restrictive view on the definition of "fixed magazine."

When Bill and I talk about this issue, we know what we are talking about.

That being said, I DID talk to your salesperson today. I didn't want to be a d*ck because his family was there, but I did tell him that he needed to have a MUCH STRONG DISCLAIMER.

What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

Yes. It should state in LARGE BOLD LETTERS something along the lines of the following: THIS DEVICE MAY NOT BE USED IN CALIFORNIA EXCEPT ON .22 RIMFIRE FIRARMS. ILLEGAL USE OF THIS DEVICE IS A FELONY. I'm not giving you legal advice, so talk to your lawyer to get the exact wording that you need.

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was considered by many to be illegal. The CA AW law is poorly written, and even now a lot of guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec.

The above line simply isn't true. The law is very clear, and there are no gray areas. Based on our experience and research, we have determined that certain things are legally defensible, and other things ARE NOT LEGALLY DEFENSIBLE. Your device, if used in California on a centerfire BB-equipped OLL is 100 percent ILLEGAL, there is no gray area at all. Do not delude yourself that you are being in the gray area. There is no "gray area."

You need to make the above very clear to anyone who buys your device. IMHO, your device has limited usefulness, and is simply going to trip up some inexperienced noob. It is only a matter of time before I will hear about someone with one of these who got arrested.

I would suggest that you use your design and marketing skills to come up with a better bullet button, or something that helps people STAY LEGAL, instead of something that helps people BREAK THE LAW.

Liberty1
11-08-2009, 8:54 PM
One of the other "wonders of CA AW world" is that a good ol' regular non-AW semiauto rifle, with a legal hicap magazine inserted, becomes an AW if the hicap mag is fixed/screwed down (BB/maglock, etc.)

12276.1(a)(2) :eek:
Wow, that is truly hilarious!!!

So in this one instance one would want to use the product discussed here...:hide:

oaklander
11-08-2009, 8:59 PM
I'm pretty sure it's an "Irwinism."

12276.1(a)(2) :eek:
Wow, that is truly hilarious!!!

So in this one instance one would want to use the product discussed here...:hide:

Nxd9ar15xcrL
11-08-2009, 8:59 PM
As long as the guy is making a buck, he will continue to sell it. Hopefully with Calguns getting the info out, buyers will flee.

Python2
11-08-2009, 8:59 PM
When I saw this little device, I did'nt even think legality. What immediately popped in my little brain was why would I pay $25 for a tiny device to worry about and something I can easily lose when a bullet is good enough. I told the dude so and the funny thing was he agreed with me.

383green
11-08-2009, 9:05 PM
You need to make the above very clear to anyone who buys your device. IMHO, your device has limited usefulness, and is simply going to trip up some inexperienced noob. It is only a matter of time before I will hear about someone with one of these who got arrested.

I would suggest that you use your design and marketing skills to come up with a better bullet button, or something that helps people STAY LEGAL, instead of something that helps people BREAK THE LAW.


That's some mighty fine trout-swingin'! Here's hoping it connected. :thumbsup:

oaklander
11-08-2009, 11:09 PM
Yup!

:D

That's some mighty fine trout-swingin'! Here's hoping it connected. :thumbsup:

Mitch
11-09-2009, 7:03 AM
Civil case, possibly, but it's not a crime to sell a magnet that potentially has an illegal use any more than it is a crime to sell a gun that potentially has an illegal use (though the Bradys want to change that).

I've seen folding stocks for Mini-14s at almost every gun show I have been to. I am pretty sure most of their new owners aren't taking them home to install on registered assault weapons.

This has been going on a long time.

ChuckBooty
11-09-2009, 7:40 AM
Seems like it'd be a useful product if you switch between .223 and .22LR or if you're gonna go shoot w/ some buddies in AZ (or any other free state). Or as an emergency conversion to a detachable mag rifle if your neighborhood somehow filled up with zombies and you didn't have time to assemble the AR properly.

bodger
11-09-2009, 7:53 AM
As long as the guy is making a buck, he will continue to sell it. Hopefully with Calguns getting the info out, buyers will flee.


Makes me wonder how many have already been sold to people who don't know thay are committing a felony when they atttach this thing.

And go their merry way not knowing they could lose their guns and their right to own one forever, and their freedom in the bargain.

ETD1010
11-09-2009, 7:55 AM
I've already run across a couple of these in our store. Customers have been saying "oh, can you get me that new magnet tool." I've done my best to educate them, but one of them was convinced that it was still a "tool".

EBR Works
11-09-2009, 9:50 AM
I talked to the guy selling them at the Ventura show and immediately told him it was illegal to attach to a featured build. He agreed but inferred that people were doing things like unscrewing their P-50 and that his product would make it easy to bypass the bullet button. He seemed to think that as long as nobody knew about it, it would be OK. A guy next to me overheard this and bought one on the spot. I walked away at that point.....

bwiese
11-09-2009, 9:53 AM
I talked to the guy selling them at the Ventura show and immediately told him it was illegal to attach to a featured build. He agreed but inferred that people were doing things like unscrewing their P-50 and that his product would make it easy to bypass the bullet button. He seemed to think that as long as nobody knew about it, it would be OK. A guy next to me overheard this and bought one on the spot. I walked away at that point.....

Thank you for this info.

What is worrying me is that I've now repeatedly heard these have been shipped to *vendors* to equip rifles with, and I need to speak to some of the names mentioned before.

What will be really worrisome is when outta state vendors start shipping OLLs with this item into CA, thinking they're compliant.

bwiese
11-09-2009, 11:36 AM
Good news: while the Cow Palace booth vendor said "JD machine" and "Kaiser" were buying these felony-in-a-baggie, I have contacted both of these fine vendors and they all agreed this device was a severe issue and that they'd never ship such an item with their product.

So one more notch on the credibility peg for the folks selling the AR MagMagnet.

I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF ANYONE SEEING SALES OF THE "AR MAG MAGNET" TALKS TO THOSE POOR BUYERS, AND REFERS THEM TO CALGUNS.NET. PLEASE TELL THEM THE DEVICE "IS NOT A TOOL" and it TRIGGERS AW STATUS WHEN USED ON A BulletButton'd CENTERFIRE RIFLE WITH FEATURES.

oaklander
11-09-2009, 11:41 AM
Right on Bill!

- I need to also remind people that the mere act of attaching this to a centerfire BB-equipped rifle in CA is an INSTANT FELONY.

Let's start calling these things FELONY BUTTONS from here on out to remind people of what they really have.

bodger
11-09-2009, 12:13 PM
This is totally irresponsible on the part of the manufacturer/vendor of this Felony Button.

It is clear that it serves no purpose because it is just as illegal as having a standard mag release.

Demonstrated on a featureless build, clear confirmation that the vendor knows this is a violation to put on a gun with a BB.

MT1
11-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Just FYI - UCLAplinker and I, plus several other people on here were throwing ideas around about magnetic actuators a few months ago in a thread some may have seen, for clarifications sake I have no affiliation with this product, and I doubt they do either.

Super Spy
11-09-2009, 12:34 PM
I own tools with magnetic tips, I'm sure many of you own magnetic bit holders or screwdrivers. Having a magnetic tip doesn't mean it's still not a tool.

It is a very bad idea for gun rights and this fool will get somebody in deep doodoo......along with the inevitable bad press........"COLLEGE STUDENT MANUFACTURES ASSAULT RIFLE FROM GUN SHOW PARTS"

You can already use a Wonder Wrench and back out your Free Lock for times when you don't need a mag lock.

Bill I'm glad you had at him.....it sounds like he's as likely to listen to rational arguments as Zellany......One more step backwards for gun rights......

MasterYong
11-09-2009, 1:26 PM
We are trying to fix the concerns stated above. I do NOT want people to think they is a way around CA's BS. It would be helpful if anyone can offer positive suggestions to help negate issues we may have.
I do think there is a place for our product, but there is limitations on it's usage, just like a whole lot of CA type products.
What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was considered by many to be illegal. The CA AW law is poorly written, and even now a lot of guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec. We are not trying to scam anybody or mislead "noobs" into buying something that they will use incorrectly.
OLL rules and regs can be very convoluted to the uneducated. We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

Sell it EXACTLY like this:

http://www.riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx

...and you might get a little more respect. Read the product description. It's clear that this is for out-of-state use only. That being said I have one of these- ironically the only time I have traveled out of state since getting one (I'm in AZ right now) I only took my featureless build and took off the MMG when I got to AZ.

Here's the two problems I see with your situation:

1. You are creating a product for a VERY small niche of customers attempting to fill a need that's already filled by at least two other manufacturers.

2. You are selling the products without being extremely clear regarding it's legalities.

I can't help you solve number one, but here's what I suggest to overcome number two:

Put a HUGE disclaimer on your site and your packaging that the use of this product within the state of California is most likely a felony. Make that the most prominent part of your packaging- bigger than the product name and description.

Really, though (and I swear I'm not trying to be mean) I wouldn't invest any more time, money, or effort into marketing this product. If you really sell it the honest way then you're catering to such a small customer base there's no way you could profit by any reasonable means.

NiteQwill
11-09-2009, 2:28 PM
Has the CGF encountered these felony-buttons in any recent OLL cases (and thus, not able to defend the case)?

Cokebottle
11-09-2009, 2:37 PM
"COLLEGE STUDENT MANUFACTURES ASSAULT RIFLE FROM GUN SHOW PARTS"
Bingo. The negative PR is our enemy on all fronts. No matter what we do to project a positive light in the media (and that's hard enough when in a crowd of 1000 people wearing Levis and polos the media will focus on the poser in full BDUs that he bought at a surplus shop), the media will latch on like a pitbull at ANYTHING that can imply that illegal items are available or can be manufactured from items for sale at a gun show.

It's already tedious enough, with the BB being the thin line between legal and "assault weapon" (I really hate that term, last time I was assaulted, the perp was using a pair of pliers).

Anyone that knows how to turn a screwdriver can manufacture an assault rifle from gunshow parts. Any halfway decent machinist can make an FAR from sporting goods store parts.... but normally, those both require intent. When people manufacture an illegal weapon out of ignorance, there SHOULD be a legal blowback on the supplier for not providing full disclosure.
Same for the Mini-14 folding stocks, and other bolt-on "evil features" that can convert a Springfield .30-06 hunting rifle into a "UAW".

goober
11-09-2009, 2:53 PM
Has the CGF encountered these felony-buttons in any recent OLL cases (and thus, not able to defend the case)?

i think they're too new just yet... but if folks keep buyin 'em, without being warned, you can bet it's gonna happen.

Neo Sharkey
11-09-2009, 3:23 PM
Nope.

And I think some at DOJ would like to see some folks get hung up so that people panic and stop buying OLLs.

I'd like to get another 200+K OLLs in CA as soon as possible. But we need to stop both FUD and entrapping/bad information and walk the narrow white line.

I'm wondering if the guy selling them is really an anti-gun activist. He sells these "magnetic buttons" to new OLL folks, and then turns around and gives the names to some group like the LAPD gun unit.

Easy way for them to make people fearful of OLLs, swooping in with search warrants about "Assault Weapons" using the information from the sales guy to generate probable cause.

oaklander
11-09-2009, 4:55 PM
That's probably a stretch. I just think he doesn't realize how risky these are.

I'm wondering if the guy selling them is really an anti-gun activist. He sells these "magnetic buttons" to new OLL folks, and then turns around and gives the names to some group like the LAPD gun unit.

Easy way for them to make people fearful of OLLs, swooping in with search warrants about "Assault Weapons" using the information from the sales guy to generate probable cause.

bodger
11-09-2009, 5:01 PM
That's probably a stretch. I just think he doesn't realize how risky these are.


He realized it enough to use a featureless rifle when he was hawking these things at the gun show.

oaklander
11-09-2009, 5:03 PM
True!

Good point!

He realized it enough to use a featureless rifle when he was hawking these things at the gun show.

anthonyca
11-09-2009, 5:05 PM
I'm wondering if the guy selling them is really an anti-gun activist. He sells these "magnetic buttons" to new OLL folks, and then turns around and gives the names to some group like the LAPD gun unit.

Easy way for them to make people fearful of OLLs, swooping in with search warrants about "Assault Weapons" using the information from the sales guy to generate probable cause.

I don't know about that. Look at most of the people on this site, "gun nuts" and still we debate on meaning of laws and none of us can resite every single of the over 10,000 gun laws nation wide.

Many people are just plain ignorant and will just assume that because they were selling them that they can use them and not take the time to understand the law. Still others thinks LEOs only go after "criminals" and they have nothing to worry about. Reminds me of a guy with an unregistered assault weapon. He told me he is not a criminal and he bought it legally in the 80s and he never heard anything about registration. I really hope the old guy doesn't get pulled over. He would most likely tell the cop he does have a gun and yes you can see it cause I have nothing to hide.

These things are going to get someone a felony.

bodger
11-09-2009, 5:14 PM
True!

Good point!


I think that is what bothers me the most about this guy and his product. He obviously knows that it is a felony-maker, and he isn't making that clear to the people who are buying it.

Until after they've bought it, IF they read his disclaimer in the package.

Cokebottle
11-09-2009, 5:16 PM
Until after they've bought it, IF they read his disclaimer in the package.
And how many people read instructions... much less disclaimers.
"Oh, there's that legal mumbo jumbo... oh, I see how this works..."
And the package goes in the trash.

CHS
11-09-2009, 5:52 PM
What I don't get is, why on earth would people buy these for $25 when you can get one of these for 6$:

http://riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx


:)

oaklander
11-09-2009, 5:54 PM
Uneducated newbs. i.e. - the same people who tend to get busted.

LOL

What I don't get is, why on earth would people buy these for $25 when you can get one of these for 6$:

http://riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx


:)

goober
11-09-2009, 7:08 PM
What I don't get is, why on earth would people buy these for $25 when you can get one of these for 6$:

http://riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx


:)

unless that alternative is in their face at a gun show, uneducated folks will buy something like this w/o knowing any better.

Victory
11-09-2009, 8:46 PM
Question: I bought the Solar Tactical version for out-of-state use.

Would it be a problem if I stored the magnet device inside of my MIAD pistol grip? Or would be be considered a part of the rifle, even then it makes absolutely no contact with the magazine release? (It is in a sealed pistol grip, afterall.)

Thanks.

-Vic

oaklander
11-09-2009, 8:49 PM
I know it fits in there real well - but it's probably better to store it in a small pill bottle or something. .

Just my 2 cents.

Question: I bought the Solar Tactical version for out-of-state use.

Would it be a problem if I stored the magnet device inside of my MIAD pistol grip? Or would be be considered a part of the rifle, even then it makes absolutely no contact with the magazine release? (It is in a sealed pistol grip, afterall.)

Thanks.

-Vic

Victory
11-09-2009, 8:57 PM
I think Gene's answer here about spare parts pretty much answers my question about the magnet thing: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=239501

Storing the traditional magazine parts in a compartment on your AR creates no legal problem. The only issue you run into is whether you're making it easier for a bad apple in law enforcement to change your configuration. The latter is very unlikely however.

-Gene

Gene, if you see this, if you can confirm, that'd be great. And yeah, I am an inquisitive person, today. :D

Thanks all.

-Vic

hoffmang
11-09-2009, 9:07 PM
What? Once isn't enough? :D

-Gene

Victory
11-09-2009, 9:18 PM
What? Once isn't enough? :D

-Gene

I'll take that as your confirmation. :detective:

Spare parts and magnets...equally evil! Hehehe.

:D

-Vic

djleisure
11-09-2009, 9:38 PM
I proudly store my Solar Tactical magnetic-bullet-button-thingy in my MIAD. I feel perfectly comfortable with it there for out-of-state use and whenever I attach my dedicated .22 upper - not a big deal.

http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/17057/2613465330104322648S600x600Q85.jpg

oaklander
11-09-2009, 9:41 PM
I stand corrected. But I'm a little paranoid. . .

:TFH:

Chunky_lover
11-09-2009, 9:55 PM
ive seen at the swap meet tiny little magnets, 30 for $5 and I was thinking of buying some to sell as out of state button, could make a nice profit even sold at $5 each through mail. dont know what the one here looks like but I bet it was the same idea. nice mark up, better save for lawyers fee.

jah191
11-09-2009, 10:10 PM
Somewhat related question:

Would it be legal to attach a tool to your thumb and use that to drop the mags?

Maybe like a ring with a protruding tool piece that faces inward on your thumb.

Cokebottle
11-09-2009, 10:13 PM
Somewhat related question:

Would it be legal to attach a tool to your thumb and use that to drop the mags?

Maybe like a ring with a protruding tool piece that faces inward on your thumb.
No question on that, it's GTG.

The gray area is when the tool is attached in any way to the gun. Some believe it's okay, others believe that it is not okay, to have the tool hanging by a lanyard from the gun.

In this case, I would personally err on the side of safety and make sure the tool is attached to me, rather than the gun.

hoffmang
11-09-2009, 10:56 PM
The gray area is when the tool is attached in any way to the gun. Some believe it's okay, others believe that it is not okay, to have the tool hanging by a lanyard from the gun.

The area is not very gray. If your rifle, as configured when seized, can have a magazine detached by the governments firearms expert on the stand without a piece of the rifle being removed from the rifle, it has a detachable magazine.

An inert bullet on a line attached to the stock that allows one to actuate a bullet button is a part of the rifle that allows the rifle to have a magazine detached without the use of a tool. A tool actually attached to your rifle is no longer a tool but is part of the rifle.

-Gene

WeekendWarrior
11-10-2009, 10:35 AM
Hypothetical situation: A friend of mine bought one of the magnets made by solar tactical, but only bought it for use outside of CA when they shoot in the Reno area of NV and will never use it in CA. Could there be an issues with constructive possession here?

goober
11-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Hypothetical situation: A friend of mine bought one of the magnets made by solar tactical, but only bought it for use outside of CA when they shoot in the Reno area of NV and will never use it in CA. Could there be an issues with constructive possession here?

No.

EOD3
11-10-2009, 3:16 PM
Make something idiot proof and before you know it you've got better IDIOTS.

Buy a bullet button, build a California legal OLL rifle, buy some POS to circumvent the bullet button, loose the rifle and go to jail.

Remember guys, we're talking about someone willing to pay $25 for a refrigerator magnet.