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View Full Version : Do we Deprive Ourselves of Support?


Farquaad
11-07-2009, 5:50 PM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

Cokebottle
11-07-2009, 5:59 PM
It's just something that comes with the "culture".

Gun owners generally tend to be more conservative/libertarian in nature.
One of the guys I used to work with was a deeply devout Christian (he would say grace for a candy bar that someone had given him), and was also a member of Amnesty International, the ACLU, and a couple of other extremely left organizations. Straight-ticket (D) voter.

I asked him a number of times how he justified the ideals of the left with respect to abortion and homosexuality with his faith. Never got an answer.

There are plenty of people on this forum who support Obama, gay rights, and public health care. With 12,000 active members, there's going to be plenty of people that agree with him and plenty that disagree.

Heck, we've even got people on the forum who don't believe that the 2A applies to military style weapons.

AJAX22
11-07-2009, 6:09 PM
We do get a bit steamy in some of the arguments... (and there is NO consensus whatsoever on the whole abortion/homosexuality/ Israel vs Palestine thing)

But by and large we manage to agree to disagree.

You know what they say, Tolerance is the right of the other person to be wrong.

a1c
11-07-2009, 6:16 PM
Of course we do. It's not just gun-owning liberals. There are plenty of libertarians who don't like some of the social conservative ideas that dominate the pro-gun movement, and want nothing to do with it.

I personally have a hard time putting up with the stuff I hear at some ranges. I don't mind a healthy debate - it's not like all my friends share the same political ideas, far from it. They range from conservative hardcore born-again Christians to granola tree-hugging hippies. But I don't like the fact that so many gun owners (or anti-gun people, for that matter) automatically seem to assume that just because I'm shooting an AR or a Sig, I must share the same views as them, and it's OK to trash health care reform, gay marriage and the right to choose.

Goes both ways. What annoys me is not their opinions - it's a free country. It's the aggressiveness and downright hatred some of them display (including in this forum). That's what's hurting us and is compromising our chances. Thankfully they don't represent all gun owners or RKBA activists. I like that Calguns has an open door philosophy with people coming from different paths. I wish the most vocal of the pro-gun peeps tuned it down and appealed to reason and education rather than cheap and divisive slogans. We need new faces to represent the RKBA movement.

dustoff31
11-07-2009, 6:27 PM
So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

Probably. But it goes both ways. How many don't support the site due to all the pro-drug posting? The cop bashing? Or get tired of people who claim to support the 2A and then vote for politicians with clearly anti 2A records.

Vinz
11-07-2009, 7:07 PM
I just tell my new comer friends to use the search, ask me and most importantly...stay out of the off topic section. End of problem.


vinz

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 7:15 PM
Sorry to be a dick but If you are pro 2A and like your rights that you won't support the people who will take those freedoms......................Am I wrong?????

Peter W Bush
11-07-2009, 7:20 PM
Sorry to be a dick but If you are pro 2A and like your rights that you won't support the people who will take those freedoms......................Am I wrong?????

I agree. I dont see how any freedom loving gun owner can vote for obama.

bruceflinch
11-07-2009, 7:20 PM
Sorry to be a dick but If you are pro 2A and like your rights that you won't support the people who will take those freedoms......................Am I wrong?????

Nope!

Calguns can't be everything to everybody.

AJAX22
11-07-2009, 7:26 PM
Sorry to be a dick but If you are pro 2A and like your rights that you won't support the people who will take those freedoms......................Am I wrong?????

errr... it depends....

There is a lot of debate on what the proper roll of the state is with regard to a lot of issues....

I tend to come down on the issues as a Libertarian/Anarcho Capitalist..... which is rather at odds with some of the more traditional conservative issues.... particularly those driven by religious rhetoric.

At the end of the day though, we're all pro gun... we may disagree on a lot of things, but I take comfort in the fact that we all believe in the 2A and the right to keep and bear arms.

I don't care if your a Democrat, a Communist, A Socialist, A Fascist, A Republican, An environmentalist, an abortionist, a homosexual, a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or a deacon in the 1st baptist church of Satan.... If they come for your guns, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you and fight for your right to keep them.

jdberger
11-07-2009, 7:38 PM
I agree. I dont see how any freedom loving gun owner can vote for obama.

I'm not an Obama fan, but the CCW/Nat'l Parks Bill signed by him was stronger than the original. And he hasn't proposed any additional gun control laws. And he hasn't signed any either.

And - Obama's mere presence has strengthened the NRA, Calguns and the gun culture beyond belief.

Some of our worst enemies have been Republicans (see Lincoln Chaffee and Dan Lundgren).

Guns aren't about Right or Left. They're about Rights.

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 7:52 PM
I'm not an Obama fan, but the CCW/Nat'l Parks Bill signed by him was stronger than the original. And he hasn't proposed any additional gun control laws. And he hasn't signed any either.

And - Obama's mere presence has strengthened the NRA, Calguns and the gun culture beyond belief.

Some of our worst enemies have been Republicans (see Lincoln Chaffee and Dan Lundgren).

Guns aren't about Right or Left. They're about Rights.

Not yet Gun bills will come during the end of his first term and during his second. If he gets a second chance

a1c
11-07-2009, 7:54 PM
Not yet Gun bills will come during the end of his first term and during his second. If he gets a second chance

Even if that's his intention, the guy, even in a second term, will IMHO have other fish to fry. And don't forget that the guy is a Constitutionalist by trade. He'll let the states and SCOTUS sort it out.

audihenry
11-07-2009, 7:58 PM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

I am curently banned from the Off Topic section for being a suspected Liberal, I've had threads removed due to some Neo-Nazi/white supremacist elements on this site, and I've been banned repeatedly from the whole site for voicing my opinions contrary to the status quo of the forum.

I can see why some people might not want to touch this place with a 10 foot pole. :rolleyes:

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 8:00 PM
I am curently banned from the Off Topic section for being a suspected Liberal, I've had threads removed due to some Neo-Nazi/white supremacist elements on this site, and I've been banned repeatedly from the whole site for voicing my opinions contrary to the status quo of the forum.

I can see why some people might not want to touch this place with a 10 foot pole. :rolleyes:

Your full of it. Neo Nazis? come on man you as crazy as Zeleny

Alaric
11-07-2009, 8:07 PM
Some of our worst enemies have been Republicans (see Lincoln Chaffee and Dan Lundgren).

Guns aren't about Right or Left. They're about Rights.

I couldn't agree more. Don't forget our biggest enemy these days, Michael Bloomberg, who was elected to office as a Republican as well.

I am curently banned from the Off Topic section for being a suspected Liberal, I've had threads removed due to some Neo-Nazi/white supremacist elements on this site, and I've been banned repeatedly from the whole site for voicing my opinions contrary to the status quo of the forum.

I can see why some people might not want to touch this place with a 10 foot pole. :rolleyes:

Welcome to the club, I'm banned from offtopic as well (for my defense of atheism), and have been banned entirely due to my views on Sarah Palin's intelligence.

I have nothing to say about any of that here anymore.

slik556
11-07-2009, 8:22 PM
I don't care who you are or what affiliation you believe in, If you don't trust me to protect myself, my family and my rights then I have no faith in anything you try to feed me. It is my litmus test for where they stand. Politicians for the most part have an agenda and will work to reach it at any cost. So if someone I know feels that I am on the wrong side of the issue all I can say to them is believe what you want and don't come to me when the SHTF and ask me to bail you out or save you as.s, you put yourself in the position with your choices and to damn bad.

May seem harsh but oh well..... Help the fight now and I will help you later, but support someone like the snake that's in the White House who lies to you every chance he gets then I have to be a little cautious.

If you don't think the current admin. will get around to the gun issue you have been :dupe:d.

Peter W Bush
11-07-2009, 8:25 PM
Im not saying republican vs. democrat. Like the saying goes. "The left doesnt like guns and the right doesnt like rights."

hoffmang
11-07-2009, 8:27 PM
If you don't think the current admin. will get around to the gun issue you have been :dupe:d.

I do not at all like the current administration due to their involvement with the Joyce Foundation, but the reality is that they may be politically astute enough to steer clear of firearms. So far the current administration has been about as pro-gun as the last administration. One of the most interesting tests will be McDonald where I expect no DOJ "Amicus." The Bush "Amicus" in Heller attempted to gut the Right to Arms by injecting machine guns into the debate...

We do the right to arms a disservice when other politics are placed in front. There are as many police state republicans who only pay lip service to the right to arms when convenient as there are actual anti-gun democrats...

-Gene

audihenry
11-07-2009, 8:44 PM
Your full of it. Neo Nazis? come on man you as crazy as Zeleny

Ad hominem, my friend. Look at my page: two people commented on the fact that my thread was deleted.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=15898

If I recall, it was about servicemembers (ACTIVE) who are posting on well-known Neo-Nazi sites (IN UNIFORM).

I found it disturbing, the powers that be were offended. For a website that talks endlessly about rights and freedoms, censorship is exercised with a very heavy hand here.

Again, if online forums are seen as places of discourse where people can engage without fear of reprisals, what is the motivation for anyone to join a forum where they can't even share ideas freely?

locosway
11-07-2009, 8:51 PM
I do not at all like the current administration due to their involvement with the Joyce Foundation, but the reality is that they may be politically astute enough to steer clear of firearms. So far the current administration has been about as pro-gun as the last administration. One of the most interesting tests will be McDonald where I expect no DOJ "Amicus." The Bush "Amicus" in Heller attempted to gut the Right to Arms by injecting machine guns into the debate...

We do the right to arms a disservice when other politics are placed in front. There are as many police state republicans who only pay lip service to the right to arms when convenient as there are actual anti-gun democrats...

-Gene

I think most people see Obama and his past as being anti-gun. It's only natural to think his previous stance on firearms and ownership would carry over into his administration.

oaklander
11-07-2009, 8:55 PM
Are the mods perfect? No?

But they do the best job they can.

The reality is that gun owners tend to be more conservative than non-gun owners. That is reflected here in the membership.

Re: the mods - knowing several of the mods personally, I can tell you that THEY are very reasonable people, and if someone gets banned, the reason is good 99 percent of the time.

Sometimes they make mistakes, but that goes with the territory.

Overall, I think this place welcomes contrary views - BUT you had better be prepared to back up what you say really well!!!!

This is coming from a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-Israel member. That being said, do I let my opinions about the above topics "hang out" all the time? Certainly not. I'd rather talk about guns than debate about the other stuff, since guns are my real passion.

;)

Ad hominem, my friend. Look at my page: two people commented on the fact that my thread was deleted.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=15898

If I recall, it was about servicemembers (ACTIVE) who are posting on well-known Neo-Nazi sites (IN UNIFORM).

I found it disturbing, the powers that be were offended. For a website that talks endlessly about rights and freedoms, censorship is exercised with a very heavy hand here.

Again, if online forums are seen as places of discourse where people can engage without fear of reprisals, what is the motivation for anyone to join a forum where they can't even share ideas freely?

Alaric
11-07-2009, 8:55 PM
To be fair, i think the mods do a pretty good job of rounding off the edges on our discussions. I mean, who really wants to hear people's actual opinions anyway? We're all happier when we think alike, talk alike, and agree with one another right? ;)

We're all like the happy medicated little children who can't be trusted to play nice without some serious ADHD meds and some moderator supervision.

OK guys, I'm just messing around, please don't ban me (again). :D

audihenry
11-07-2009, 9:06 PM
Are the mods perfect? No?

But they do the best job they can.

The reality is that gun owners tend to be more conservative than non-gun owners. That is reflected here in the membership.

Re: the mods - knowing several of the mods personally, I can tell you that THEY are very reasonable people, and if someone gets banned, the reason is good 99 percent of the time.

Sometimes they make mistakes, but that goes with the territory.

Overall, I think this place welcomes contrary views - BUT you had better be prepared to back up what you say really well!!!!

This is coming from a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-Israel member. That being said, do I let my opinions about the above topics "hang out" all the time? Certainly not. I'd rather talk about guns than debate about the other stuff, since guns are my real passion.

;)

Hey I agree with you, but Off Topic means just that: OFF TOPIC. Not about guns. It's not as fair and balanced as you make it appear.

Kestryll
11-07-2009, 9:25 PM
I am curently banned from the Off Topic section for being a suspected Liberal,
Let's be honest shall we?
You were not barred from OT because you are 'Liberal', you were barred after you established a history, not once or twice but a regular history, of trolling people whose ideology you disagreed with.
The final nail was your now deleted thread that was nothing but blantant baiting for yet another political bicker-fest.
And this after repeated warnings.

I've had threads removed due to some Neo-Nazi/white supremacist elements on this site,
Really?
I have a pretty good handle on who our resident supremacists are and I don't recall you having anything to do with them.

and I've been banned repeatedly from the whole site for voicing my opinions contrary to the status quo of the forum.
You have been banned for being rude, namecalling and derogatory comments about other members not for voicing a differing opinion.

I can see why some people might not want to touch this place with a 10 foot pole. :rolleyes:
Not if they expect to be a 'protected class', never be offended by the views of others and thin k that they can insult people and get away with it.

Welcome to the club, I'm banned from offtopic as well (for my defense of atheism),
If you consider demeaning and insulting remarks and comments about the beliefs of others as 'defending athiesm then sure.
And like audihenry you were banned and warned that the insults and derogatory comments would have repercussions and you continued topost them.

and have been banned entirely due to my views on Sarah Palin's intelligence.
You have been banned not for your views but for the crude and insulting manner in which you present them.
Just as several have been banned for their derogatory and snide comments and remarks about Obama, Pelosi, Bush, Hilary and others.

I have nothing to say about any of that here anymore.

I found it disturbing, the powers that be were offended. For a website that talks endlessly about rights and freedoms, censorship is exercised with a very heavy hand here.
ALL forum exercise some level of 'censorship, it's called having Rules.

As for rights and freedoms, this is a disingenuous argument.
There is a clear difference between the rights our Government is REQUIRED to respect and protect and what limitations a private entity can impose on a private forum.

Again, if online forums are seen as places of discourse where people can engage without fear of reprisals, what is the motivation for anyone to join a forum where they can't even share ideas freely?
You rail against the idea of 'Neo-Nazis' having a voice while claiming you should be able to give voice to whatever you want regardless.
This is where Rules come in to play.

locosway
11-07-2009, 9:28 PM
Hey, I just donated for my first time ever to any organization!!!

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 9:54 PM
Ad hominem, my friend. Look at my page: two people commented on the fact that my thread was deleted.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=15898

If I recall, it was about servicemembers (ACTIVE) who are posting on well-known Neo-Nazi sites (IN UNIFORM).

I found it disturbing, the powers that be were offended. For a website that talks endlessly about rights and freedoms, censorship is exercised with a very heavy hand here.

Again, if online forums are seen as places of discourse where people can engage without fear of reprisals, what is the motivation for anyone to join a forum where they can't even share ideas freely?

So who cares (freedom of speech) why? single out nazis why? not go after Muslims, Jews, Catholic?. BTW is'nt AUDI a Nazi Car come on man your crazy.



And another thing Nazis are socialist and most Calgunners (and I cannot speak for all of them of course) are not Socialists.. And if you're worried about nazi's in the military why are you worried about the gangs, like the surennos or norte that have enlisted in the military also. What about Islamic extremists that have enlisted also. I mean this has no end. you might as well hate everyone in the US

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 10:06 PM
Not if they expect to be a 'protected class', never be offended by the views of others and thin k that they can insult people and get away with it.




You rail against the idea of 'Neo-Nazis' having a voice while claiming you should be able to give voice to whatever you want regardless.
This is where Rules come in to play.

+3 trillion

CABilly
11-07-2009, 10:29 PM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

Probably.

There are many more cool people that I'd like to meet here than there are completely frightening people I hope to never encounter, but the latter do exist. If you want to improve your experience on this site, just avoid the Off Topic forum. Calling out the racists, homophobes, twisted mall ninja scenario fantasies and general FUD in there is only peeing into the wind and ban food for the mods.

I appreciate the Foundation and that's what keeps me coming back. I'll continue to support CGF - it's the best way to keep abreast of the issues we all care about here in CA.

I still don't know what I did to get banned from OT. I'm not really pursuing it, either. My CalGuns surfing BP is at a much healthier level now.

jdberger
11-07-2009, 10:45 PM
I think most people see Obama and his past as being anti-gun. It's only natural to think his previous stance on firearms and ownership would carry over into his administration.

Would he do it if he thought he could get away with it without decimating his Congressional majority and permanently destroying Presidency?

Sure.

At this time, he's too politically astute to follow that sort of line.

I worrry much more about the yahoos on the local level.

audihenry
11-07-2009, 10:47 PM
So who cares (freedom of speech) why? single out nazis why? not go after Muslims, Jews, Catholic?. BTW is'nt AUDI a Nazi Car come on man your crazy.



And another thing Nazis are socialist and most Calgunners (and I cannot speak for all of them of course) are not Socialists.. And if you're worried about nazi's in the military why are you worried about the gangs, like the surennos or norte that have enlisted in the military also. What about Islamic extremists that have enlisted also. I mean this has no end. you might as well hate everyone in the US

THIS is why people want to ban guns and hate gun owners in general, because they look at stuff like this.

Why single out NAZIs? Hate everyone in the U.S.? Do you even understand what you're trying to convey??

God forbid someone criticize Neo NAZIs in the military without going after EVERY OTHER group in one sitting, because that's what articles tend to do: they tend to cover every single group, every single nationality, every single religion, so as not to offend one (NAZIs, in this case) and not the others.

Wow.

audihenry
11-07-2009, 10:51 PM
You rail against the idea of 'Neo-Nazis' having a voice while claiming you should be able to give voice to whatever you want regardless.
This is where Rules come in to play.

This just sums up everything perfectly: your comparing my opinions, which may sometimes conflict with that of CalGunners, with the notion that a group based in principle on hate, subjugation, and if given the chance, on total destruction of the majority of minority groups, should be held to the same high esteem as any other decent person who upholds his rights of expression.

Well done, Kes.

locosway
11-07-2009, 10:51 PM
THIS is why people want to ban guns and hate gun owners in general, because they look at the stuff spewed out by the lowest common denominator.

Well done, sir.

Actually, like I've said in other posts... You're just looking for reasons to fight with people. You remind me of a neighbor that talked me into going on TV with him. He was so bent on his ways that he just couldn't hear anything else. He ended up talking about making some International Federation of Planets organization with private police with stun guns and all that jazz...

I never understood why me owning a firearm was an issue when he wanted plasma phasers.

audihenry
11-07-2009, 10:57 PM
Actually, like I've said in other posts... You're just looking for reasons to fight with people. You remind me of a neighbor that talked me into going on TV with him. He was so bent on his ways that he just couldn't hear anything else. He ended up talking about making some International Federation of Planets organization with private police with stun guns and all that jazz...

I never understood why me owning a firearm was an issue when he wanted plasma phasers.

LOL What are you talking about man, too many sci fi references in one post :TFH:

oaklander
11-07-2009, 11:05 PM
Sweet!

:D

Hey, I just donated for my first time ever to any organization!!!

audihenry
11-07-2009, 11:07 PM
Can you write off donations to CalGuns?

oaklander
11-07-2009, 11:14 PM
Yes. 501(c)(3) - CGF ONLY!

Not the server fund or the forum.

Can you write off donations to CalGuns?

audihenry
11-07-2009, 11:18 PM
Very cool, thanks.

oaklander
11-07-2009, 11:21 PM
No problem!

And, just a note - we have very LOW expenses, we don't get paid or anything like that - pretty much everything goes to fight for 2A stuff. . .

:D

Very cool, thanks.

LesGrossman41510
11-07-2009, 11:22 PM
I have met people at ranges who did not have favorable things to say about CG and the offtopic forums. I can agree to some extent. I am born and raised SF, a "youngster" as most of you call me, multi racial, and i have friends who are on section 8, etc. I have a small criminal record with several misdemeanors.

I definately feel at certain times that the offtopic place is strictly for those of the same cloth.

I have thick skin so i could care less what a bunch of old farts with man boobs and mall ninja outfits think but i do pay attention to their criticism if it has valid points and sometimes i learn new things.

I love the 2A and thats why im here, i love guns and i love the values this country was built from. So what, i have friends on section 8, if you dont like that, then i respectfully say "screw you!"

But i wouldnt hesitate to join you mall ninjas in a protest outside nancy pelosis house, or even join you in a call to arms if the government ever gets out of control and we need to fight back.

LesGrossman41510
11-07-2009, 11:29 PM
I agree. I dont see how any freedom loving gun owner can vote for obama.

Alot of people werent educated at the time including me. I have friends who wore Obama Tshirts and now i look back like WTF. But at the time it was either Obama or old man McCain and Sarah Palin. Blame the republicans for being so unappealing to multi racial people.

Obama also allowed guns in national forests so i dont really see him as totally anti gun. I see him more as a pro healthcare socialist guy that isnt really touching the gun issue because all of the south will begin secession again if that happens. He doesnt want to spark to powder keg just yet.

LesGrossman41510
11-07-2009, 11:34 PM
I personally have a hard time putting up with the stuff I hear at some ranges. But I don't like the fact that so many gun owners (or anti-gun people, for that matter) automatically seem to assume that just because I'm shooting an AR or a Sig, I must share the same views as them, and it's OK to trash health care reform, gay marriage and the right to choose.

What annoys me is not their opinions - it's a free country. It's the aggressiveness and downright hatred some of them display (including in this forum). .

well said.


I was banned but kestryll respectfully reminded it wasnt for my POV but because my posts were aggressive. However they let most of the aggressive down right racist posts slide for some reason. i cant even count how many times i have heard in off topic anti mexican comments. arent there mexicans on this site too? if theres one thing i hate more than liberals its racist Mfers who think their **** dont stink.

slik556
11-08-2009, 12:02 AM
Alot of people werent educated at the time including me. I have friends who wore Obama Tshirts and now i look back like WTF. But at the time it was either Obama or old man McCain and Sarah Palin. Blame the republicans for being so unappealing to multi racial people.

Obama also allowed guns in national forests so i dont really see him as totally anti gun. I see him more as a pro healthcare socialist guy that isnt really touching the gun issue because all of the south will begin secession again if that happens. He doesnt want to spark to powder keg just yet.

I think the only reason that he allowed this is because it was hooked to some kind of credit card thing that needed to be passed

ke6guj
11-08-2009, 12:02 AM
Can you write off donations to CalGuns?donations to the Calguns Foundation are tax-deductable, but donations to CGN or the server fund aren't.

CABilly
11-08-2009, 12:05 AM
I have met people at ranges who did not have favorable things to say about CG and the offtopic forums. I can agree to some extent. I am born and raised SF, a "youngster" as most of you call me, multi racial, and i have friends who are on section 8, etc. I have a small criminal record with several misdemeanors.

I definately feel at certain times that the offtopic place is strictly for those of the same cloth.

I have thick skin so i could care less what a bunch of old farts with man boobs and mall ninja outfits think but i do pay attention to their criticism if it has valid points and sometimes i learn new things.

I love the 2A and thats why im here, i love guns and i love the values this country was built from. So what, i have friends on section 8, if you dont like that, then i respectfully say "screw you!"

But i wouldnt hesitate to join you mall ninjas in a protest outside nancy pelosis house, or even join you in a call to arms if the government ever gets out of control and we need to fight back.

Please don't take this as troll bait, I can't resist asking this question.

Considering everything in your above post, where do you think you'd fit in with the new society they'd form?

audihenry
11-08-2009, 12:11 AM
donations to the Calguns Foundation are tax-deductable, but donations to CGN or the server fund aren't.

Thanks, I didn't realize they were separate entities.

oaklander
11-08-2009, 6:57 AM
Yes - thanks for the clarification - I will edit my post. . .

EDIT: this might call for a graph!

donations to the Calguns Foundation are tax-deductable, but donations to CGN or the server fund aren't.

Mitch
11-08-2009, 7:51 AM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights?

Yep. Big time.

The Ft Hood shooting thread in the 2nd Amendment section, where people are advocating internment camps for Muslim Americans, should do a lot to spread the gun love message. As would any 30 seconds spent perusing the Arfcom General Discussion section.

Edit: I see this discussion has already moved onto how Calguns specifically might be viewed by the general public. In the last year or so it has become clear the management here have been trying to make Calguns the most moderate gun forum on the interwebs. Sadly, "most moderate gun forum" is a lot like "least deadly pneumonia."

snobord99
11-08-2009, 8:29 AM
I was banned but kestryll respectfully reminded it wasnt for my POV but because my posts were aggressive. However they let most of the aggressive down right racist posts slide for some reason. i cant even count how many times i have heard in off topic anti mexican comments. arent there mexicans on this site too? if theres one thing i hate more than liberals its racist Mfers who think their **** dont stink.

+1

That's one of the reasons I don't like the speech regulations here (other being my belief that people advocating "freedoms" shouldn't be totalitarian, government entity or not). There are no real clear cut rules as to what is and isn't acceptable; all there is really is "don't say anything we don't like." I know rules are posted and there's an attempt at it being clear; however, at the end of the day, enforcement is completely arbitrary.

JayDeeSacramento
11-08-2009, 8:46 AM
well said.
However they let most of the aggressive down right racist posts slide for some reason. i cant even count how many times i have heard in off topic anti mexican comments. arent there mexicans on this site too? if theres one thing i hate more than liberals its racist Mfers who think their **** dont stink.

This is the reason why I don't suggest this forum to my friends that are shooters. A lot of the comments made here about Mexicans/Latinos disgust me.

I felt the same way though when I was reading the last Guns and Ammo and the Editor was talking about moving out of California and not having to see day laborers anymore. It's just unnecessary to me in a gun discussion.

Then again my master's thesis project was a bilingual resource guide to health and social services for migrant workers in the Sacramento area. So I'm probably way on the other side of the immigration argument than a lot of the folks here.

trashman
11-08-2009, 8:58 AM
I guess from my point of view the actual number of pro-RKBA people who might join Calguns and then leave because of the OT stuff are pretty small in number. Gunnies are generally thought of as passionate folks.

Where I DO think we're getting a bad name is with local storefront gunshops; mention Calguns and you'll get a lot of rolled eyes...."oh those guys on Calguns....MAN are they cheap....all they do is call me up and yell at me when I tell them the out of state transfer fee is $100"...

We gotta support the FFLs in California, folks!

--Neill

Ladyfox
11-08-2009, 9:05 AM
I don't care if your a Democrat, a Communist, A Socialist, A Fascist, A Republican, An environmentalist, an abortionist, a homosexual, a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or a deacon in the 1st baptist church of Satan.... If they come for your guns, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you and fight for your right to keep them.

And this pretty much says it perfectly.

Just from my own personal observation since signing up here I can see why his friend would not wish to hang around here. While I give a LOT of credit to Kes and the other mods here let's face it they can not be everywhere at once and this place was meant to be open to everyone so some compromises had to be made to allow everyone here the ability to speak their mind within reasonable limits.

Myself, I stick around regardless of how bad it gets because this place really is CA's last best hope for 2A rights. Not saying what goes on around here that winds up alienating people like the OP friend, and many others I'm sure, is right but it's the best of what we have right now.

Personally, I just wish more took the mindset that AJAX22 posted above rather than taking the "my way or the highway" approach. We're only doing ourselves a disservice by chasing folks away over BS that really in the grand scheme of things is not as important as 2A rights are.

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 9:05 AM
THIS is why people want to ban guns and hate gun owners in general, because they look at stuff like this.

Why single out NAZIs? Hate everyone in the U.S.? Do you even understand what you're trying to convey??

God forbid someone criticize Neo NAZIs in the military without going after EVERY OTHER group in one sitting, because that's what articles tend to do: they tend to cover every single group, every single nationality, every single religion, so as not to offend one (NAZIs, in this case) and not the others.

Wow.

I was pointing out how stupid your ideals are. Freedom of speech also means putting up with speech from others that you don't like But you also have the freedom to not listen to it. For instance Neo nazis are a small problem in the military why go after them ONLY. how bought the street gangs in the military? they probbaly hate whites. Look all this stuff with racism just goes around in circles. Why punish the whiteman.

Kestryll
11-08-2009, 9:50 AM
This just sums up everything perfectly: your comparing my opinions, which may sometimes conflict with that of CalGunners, with the notion that a group based in principle on hate, subjugation, and if given the chance, on total destruction of the majority of minority groups, should be held to the same high esteem as any other decent person who upholds his rights of expression.

Well done, Kes.

You really don't get it do you?
Either that or you are being willfully ignorant in order to play the victim.

Your post here is exactly what I am referring to.
You want total freedom of speech for your opinion because you are a 'decent person' and your opinions should be held in 'high esteem' but you want total subjugation of any views you do not care for.

As I was pointing out before you do not want free speech you want your speech to be protected and that of others to be forbidden because you do not agree with them.
If you truly were advocating unrestricted free speech you'd not be calling for the banning of of the ravings of nutball supremacists.

You are asking for unrestricted free speech for yourself only and that is NOT defense of rights at all.

B Strong
11-08-2009, 9:55 AM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

I don't know how old your friend is, but he should know that folks can have and are entitled to different opinions on any subject, and reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

Does he feel that any environmemnt that doesn't conform 100% to his belief system is hostile?

He should stick around, we have all kinds of members that support his beliefs, they just aren't the majority.

Kestryll
11-08-2009, 9:58 AM
I definately feel at certain times that the offtopic place is strictly for those of the same cloth.

OT is like any other moderately open discussion area, it adapts to the prevailing opinion of the group. We do Moderate it to prevent problems but by and large the tone is set by the membership.

As long as you have open access and no ideological requirements for joining and posting most gun forums will have a distinctly conservative bend to them, that's just the reality of life.
We do not treat liberals as a 'protected class' but neither will we allow blatant bashing.
The reality of it is you will never make everyone happy.

Kestryll
11-08-2009, 10:02 AM
However they let most of the aggressive down right racist posts slide for some reason.
If there are actual racist posts that 'slide' it's because they are not reported or seen.

i cant even count how many times i have heard in off topic anti mexican comments. arent there mexicans on this site too? if theres one thing i hate more than liberals its racist Mfers who think their **** dont stink.

In the upper right corner of each post is a white triangle with a red exclamation point in it.
This is the Report Post button and if you see a racist posting use it to let us know about it.

97F1504RAD
11-08-2009, 10:27 AM
I do not agree with many of the discussion and opinions of a lot of people here, but I choose not to get into the discussions on those topics that pop up on this forum. I honestly wish there was a way I could block out the off topic forum. I simply CHOOSE not to read or participate in them unless I see something that catches my eye, I just do not feel like getting into the discussions.
I am pretty set in my beliefs at this point in my life and see no need to get into discussions with those that do not think the same way I do.

Many of those exact topics such as gay rights, public health care, pro choice etc.....

I believe what i believe and could care less what others think. It is there right to think what they do and mine to think what I do. No point in alienating yourself from this forum because you do not like the beliefs of many here.

Also it is really hard to change peoples views on things they believe in. However there is way to much valuable info on this site to simply stop coming due to things I do not like.

Tell your friend to ignore the things he doesn't like and pay attention to the things he does.

a1c
11-08-2009, 10:42 AM
I guess from my point of view the actual number of pro-RKBA people who might join Calguns and then leave because of the OT stuff are pretty small in number. Gunnies are generally thought of as passionate folks.

The problem is that the OT stuff, well, is not just in the OT forum. A lot of users - and a lot of gun owners in real life - tend to use the 2A as a crutch for every possible political or social issue they rant about, even when it's completely unrelated.

Alaric
11-08-2009, 11:18 AM
I have met people at ranges who did not have favorable things to say about CG and the offtopic forums. I can agree to some extent. I am born and raised SF, a "youngster" as most of you call me, multi racial, and i have friends who are on section 8, etc. I have a small criminal record with several misdemeanors.

I definately feel at certain times that the offtopic place is strictly for those of the same cloth.

I have thick skin so i could care less what a bunch of old farts with man boobs and mall ninja outfits think but i do pay attention to their criticism if it has valid points and sometimes i learn new things.

I love the 2A and thats why im here, i love guns and i love the values this country was built from. So what, i have friends on section 8, if you dont like that, then i respectfully say "screw you!"

But i wouldnt hesitate to join you mall ninjas in a protest outside nancy pelosis house, or even join you in a call to arms if the government ever gets out of control and we need to fight back.

Quoted for awesome.

I feel the same way.

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 12:05 PM
Please don't take this as troll bait, I can't resist asking this question.

Considering everything in your above post, where do you think you'd fit in with the new society they'd form?

I think if SHTF we would care less abuot our differences, old racist white guy might actually not mind having colored folk around if they are for the same cause.

If we formed a new society, we would all go back to our groups and families, we wouldnt be hanging around all day like at the CG booth.

I just want my own plot of land to raise livestock and food and feed my people.


I bet our founding fathers did not agree on everything, but they still stood next to eachother and fought the brits. Then when it came to starting the new society they all sat down and debated it until they came out with something.

pretz
11-08-2009, 12:32 PM
I was out shooting today talking with my shooting buddy at the range and the conversation turned to Calguns, and I was not very pleased with his thoughts. I introduced him to the site about a year ago after I was told about it, and right now he says he wants nothing to do with it. He is a pro 2nd Amendment Democrat who voted for Obama, supports gay rights, public healthcare, and says he just doesn't feel welcome here. As a result he no longer supports the site. I think he is being shortsighted, but I also think he has a valid point. So, are costing ourselves support with things that have nothing to do with our 2a rights? Thoughts?

The Owners and Staff of this site are largely inclusive, fair, and have deep respect for 1A.

The Members that post do give the appearance of being less than stellar. Reasoned discourse in the Off Topic section is more of a challenge than I am capable of!

A person who wanders into THAT section will draw some conclusions about our membership in general, and many will find it unappealing. Your friend is well justified in ignoring the entire site do to the mindset that is displayed in that one section, and the few examples that sometimes pop up inother sections.

For myself, most sections have outstanding levels of accurate information, but I am disinclined to support the site in its entirety for fear that I am supporting an arena for views outside of 2A that I find horrid.

Just as I did not vote for a person who is strongly anti-2A, I will not support members of this site who promote hatred, bigotry, and spread disinformation.

Still, the Off Topic section is invaluable for smoking out Staff and Members who take gun ownership from the mainstream, and drive it into the realm backwater isolationism.

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 12:44 PM
I guess from my point of view the actual number of pro-RKBA people who might join Calguns and then leave because of the OT stuff are pretty small in number. Gunnies are generally thought of as passionate folks.

Where I DO think we're getting a bad name is with local storefront gunshops; mention Calguns and you'll get a lot of rolled eyes...."oh those guys on Calguns....MAN are they cheap....all they do is call me up and yell at me when I tell them the out of state transfer fee is $100"...

We gotta support the FFLs in California, folks!

--Neill

Yeah I've heard that, but you can't say that none of us here have'nt benifited from it.

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=Kestryll;3332427]OT is like any other moderately open discussion area, it adapts to the prevailing opinion of the group. We do Moderate it to prevent problems but by and large the tone is set by the membership.


And that is what makes the Off topic Area so great.

trashman
11-08-2009, 1:12 PM
Yeah I've heard that, but you can't say that none of us here have'nt benifited from it.

Er, what are you saying I'm (not) saying?

--Neill

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 2:12 PM
Er, what are you saying I'm (not) saying?

--Neill

That when we trash a FFL for illegally overcharging transfer fees or out of state transfers we force them to bring their prices down to reality. What I agree on is that FFL's think were a bunch of cheap bastards.(which in my case is true)

Cokebottle
11-08-2009, 3:30 PM
That when we trash a FFL for illegally overcharging transfer fees or out of state transfers we force them to bring their prices down to reality. What I agree on is that FFL's think were a bunch of cheap bastards.(which in my case is true)
That's the beauty of the free market.

We've got a sticky at the top of this forum that lists many (certainly not all) FFLs in this state, which lists their FFL fees, if there is a difference between receiver, pistol, or rifle, and discounts available to CGN members.

The fees range from $5 (yes, $5) to >$100, with most being in the $35-$60 range.
Obviously, it's not going to be economical for most of us to make 2 trips to Bakersfield or Ridgecrest to take advantage of the $5 and $10 shops, but if you've got a shop that charges $30 and one that charges $100 in your general area, which one are you going to use?
Perhaps the shop that charges $100 simply doesn't want to deal with transfers, or perhaps their inventory and customer service is so good that people feel that it's worth spending a few more bucks on the relatively infrequent FFL transfer to show loyalty to that particular shop.

HUTCH 7.62
11-08-2009, 7:17 PM
That's the beauty of the free market.

We've got a sticky at the top of this forum that lists many (certainly not all) FFLs in this state, which lists their FFL fees, if there is a difference between receiver, pistol, or rifle, and discounts available to CGN members.

The fees range from $5 (yes, $5) to >$100, with most being in the $35-$60 range.
Obviously, it's not going to be economical for most of us to make 2 trips to Bakersfield or Ridgecrest to take advantage of the $5 and $10 shops, but if you've got a shop that charges $30 and one that charges $100 in your general area, which one are you going to use?
Perhaps the shop that charges $100 simply doesn't want to deal with transfers, or perhaps their inventory and customer service is so good that people feel that it's worth spending a few more bucks on the relatively infrequent FFL transfer to show loyalty to that particular shop.


That is the Gem that is CALGUNS.NET

trashman
11-08-2009, 8:04 PM
That's the beauty of the free market.


And I think that's where we're maybe off-track a little.

It ISN'T a free market. The govt tightly controls what kind of gun commerce travels across state lines (and how it does).

It also highly regulates the dealers that we must use to participate as customers in said commerce.

By all means - vote with your feet to find the best transfer price (I certainly do). But if all we do is use local FFLs for transfers from BudsGunshop.com, then pretty soon most dealers will find a way to make a profit from that since we're not actually buying anything in the store.

My point isn't that being cheap is bad -- far from it -- but rather that Calgunners are acquiring a reputation as mildly abusive (over the phone particularly) when dealers won't cut us a break on transfer fees.

Dealers aren't required to provide us a transfer service for out of state purchases...

Just sayin....

--Neill

a1c
11-08-2009, 8:40 PM
I like to do my best to support local businesses - at least the ones that treat their customers well. So while I buy the bulk of my ammo online, I'll try to buy a box of ammo here and there from the local shops.

As for firearms, I will gladly accept to spend 20% more at the local gun shop for a Remmy shotgun than what Bud's or Cabela's will charge. But if it's a $1,000+ gun, I'm going to research it, price it at several places, and if it's cheaper to get it transferred to them than to buy it from them and save myself a couple of hundred bucks, I'm not going to feel bad about it.

You have to find the right balance. I found that being courteous and friendly goes a long way, and that some dealers will cut you a break or give you a discount if you patronize them on a regular basis or send them some business.