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View Full Version : Pay Penalty for Waiting > 10 Days??


wsfarrell
11-06-2009, 10:10 PM
I did a PPT in Mountain View, but couldn't get back to pick it up until 13 days had passed. I was charged $5 a day for every day I was "late" ($15 penalty). I did the same thing on a PPT in San Carlos (I was 4 days "late"), and they never said a word.

This penalty strikes me as absurd. They make you wait 10 days, and if you pick it up ONE DAY later you have to pay a penalty? Is this legal?

whatmeworry
11-06-2009, 10:20 PM
I assume that it was at Bay Area Gun Vault.

Last PPT I did there the paperwork was stamped IN RED with the terms of storage after the 10 days ($5 per day)

Legal - I think so...

Good business practice.....well you make the call.

.22guy
11-06-2009, 10:26 PM
That would be the LAST 15 dollars I would ever spend in that place. And I would let them know that fact as well.

Swatguy10_15
11-06-2009, 10:37 PM
Its legal, they can mandate fee's as they want for "storage" but..Yea time to find a new place to shop..Thats unheard of..Hello gouging 101..

Mssr. Eleganté
11-06-2009, 10:42 PM
I did a PPT in Mountain View, but couldn't get back to pick it up until 13 days had passed. I was charged $5 a day for every day I was "late" ($15 penalty). I did the same thing on a PPT in San Carlos (I was 4 days "late"), and they never said a word.

This penalty strikes me as absurd. They make you wait 10 days, and if you pick it up ONE DAY later you have to pay a penalty? Is this legal?

PPT's are to FFL's in California very much like jury duty and military conscription are to American citizens. We don't like jury duty and we don't want to get drafted into the Army, but we all know that it's a part of citizenship and we suck it up and do our part.

Some "smart" folks have figured out ways of getting out of jury duty and the draft. Just wear a Dirty Harry t-shirt to jury duty and you won't get picked. Just flee to Canada as a "conscientious objector" or enroll at Oxford University in England until the war is over and you can avoid the draft.

In the same way, some "smart" FFL's in California have figured out ways to discourage people from attempting PPT's at their shops and push people over to other shops for PPT's. The $5 per day "storage" fee after 10 days is one of the ways the "smart" FFL's have come up with.

kemasa
11-07-2009, 7:04 PM
There is short term thinking and long term thinking. Those "smart" folks are not all that bright and tend to annoy customers to the point of their not wanting to due business with them ever again and also have them tell others to avoid them, which can hurt the bottom line. That does not seem real positive nor bright to me.

Rather than view it as a negative, consider the fact that people are being forced to come into your business and perhaps they will buy something else and/or come back and buy a firearm from you. It is an opportunity for them to get to know you and you want that to be positive for future business.

As for jury duty, just ask about jury nullification :-).

robairto
11-07-2009, 7:12 PM
I'd find a knick on the gun and ask to be compensated :)... Two can play that game.

Bowser
11-07-2009, 11:00 PM
I'd find a knick on the gun and ask to be compensated :)... Two can play that game.

Being grumpy because a fee is legal and you don't want to pay is fine, go PPT somewhere else.

Fraudulently claiming a store messed up your gun so you can make a big stink about 15 bucks is retarded.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-08-2009, 12:19 AM
Being grumpy because a fee is legal and you don't want to pay is fine, go PPT somewhere else.

That's the plan isn't it? Make the customer so grumpy that he goes to one of your competitors for the PPT? Make your competitor to do all of the PPT dirty work?

PPT's are a burden forced on the FFL community in California. Why not just suck it up and do your fare share of PPT's instead of forcing other FFL's to make up for your slacking?

nicki
11-08-2009, 1:13 AM
Hardest part of any business is finding customers,

Dumbest thing a business can do is piss off potential customers and usually it is little things rather than big things that piss off customers.

Many people who go into stores buy something that they weren't planning on, but if you chase someone out of your store, they won't be buying anything from you.

Nicki

rdubya
11-08-2009, 10:59 AM
As a customer I have done only a couple of PPT's. All were done at a neighborhood store. Each time I did I made sure that I bought ammo, mags, targets and other little things. The extra items all came to over $75.00. I felt that the dealer was helping me out why shouldn't I help him. I would like to pose 2 questions. First the fee charged for PPT is anywhere from $25.00 and up, exactly what does the FFL have to do besides use his FFL and paperwork? Second, on GunBroker, out of state FFL's, IF they will sell to Calif folks always add a fee "for the extra paper work involved for shipping to PRK". Is there any extra paperwork as opposed to say Arizona, Texas or any other state?

djbooya
11-08-2009, 8:15 PM
BTW: BAGV (not that I'm knocking them) does the $5/day for regular FFL transfers too (not just PPTs).. I can see why though after talking to some other dealers (Cold War Shooters for instance). They clean out their safes monthly and find firearms where people have not come back for them. Even people who will have to restart DROS. You can imagine the position these dealers are put in. They legally have to hold your crap till whenever you decide to come get it.. it takes up space for their inventory and their active customers. While I personally don't agree with the fee, I understand why they do it. Any of you that to "doggy day care" or even regular child day care I'm sure can relate. I've heard that most day care places charges if you're late picking up your kid on the same fricken day. Why? Because they are officially closed and have to pay their employees overtime. Doing this a few time encourages people to be on time.

As for fees at gunstores. I probably wouldn't impose a fee unless the DROS lapsed. Legally the state gives the person 30 days, so I would think that's reasonable for the dealer as well.

Just my $.02 kind of looking at it from both sides.

tenpercentfirearms
11-09-2009, 5:26 AM
The PPT PC language states no other fees, so I am not sure if the charge is actually legal.

I would ask where you were notified of that policy at the start of the 10 days. I would inform them that even though they made $15 now, you won't be using them again for anything ever.

zinfull
11-09-2009, 8:56 AM
Outside of CA vendors charging extra for paperwork are charging to verify the CFLC. This is a crap charge as all they have to do is verify and printout authorization to ship. Takes a minute or two. This is another way to stop the shipment of guns into CA. Hassle the out of state vendors and small CA FFLs.

jerry

kemasa
11-09-2009, 9:19 AM
What the out of state FFLs don't realized, until it is pointed out to them, is that if they refuse to ship to CA, then they are doing exactly what the anti-gun people want. Charging for the few seconds it takes to print the letter is just a joke. Again, I am sure that the anti-gun people love that as it annoys CA firearms buyers.

berto
11-09-2009, 9:25 AM
Sounds like the store places your value as a potential future customer at $5 per day. Seems silly to create ill will for a measly $5 but what do I know? Not much 'cept one store I will not patronize.

Super Spy
11-09-2009, 10:07 AM
Bogus gouging, find a place that WANTS your business and won't screw you.

kemasa
11-09-2009, 10:20 AM
Check out CA PC 12082. The last part of (a) says:

The purchaser or
transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the
dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and
no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076,
12076.5, and 12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and
the fees set forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions
shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may
not charge any additional fees.

It looks to me like charging for storage is not allowed, even if it is not picked up right after the 10 days. Most likely, you would have to wait until after 30 days.

Mike's Custom
11-09-2009, 11:43 AM
It is NOT legal to charge a storage fee as long as the firearm is in the 30 day waiting period. Now if the buyer/transferer does not pick it up before the end of hte 30 day period then the dealer can charge for storage until the person comes back in to rerun the DROS.

halifax
11-09-2009, 11:48 AM
I believe it is legal (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=184698&highlight=STORAGE) if disclosed up front and not misrepresented as a government fee.

It's from 2001, but I don't think it has been superseded.

Mike's Custom
11-09-2009, 11:53 AM
I believe it is legal (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=184698&highlight=STORAGE) if disclosed up front and not misrepresented as a government fee.

It is not legal even if disclosed because it is a state mandated waiting period and you have 30 days to pick the gun up, well 20 days after the 10 days is up.

B.D.Dubloon
11-09-2009, 12:44 PM
You should be using Roger's Relics for all your ppt needs, or RMB Enterprises in Milpitas. BAGV sucks.

halifax
11-09-2009, 1:46 PM
It is not legal even if disclosed because it is a state mandated waiting period and you have 30 days to pick the gun up, well 20 days after the 10 days is up.


2. Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee.

How can you read this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf) from the DOJ and still say that?

Really, I do hope I'm wrong but it doesn't look like that is the case.

Mike's Custom
11-09-2009, 7:38 PM
How can you read this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf) from the DOJ and still say that?

Really, I do hope I'm wrong but it doesn't look like that is the case.

If you read the line "following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the FFL would have to NOTIFY the buyer/transferee at the end of hte 10 day period that he can pick it up. Failure to NOTIFY the buyer/transferee means he can't charge a fee whether it is posted or not. The "notification" must be done after the 10the day, not at the time of purchase.

tenpercentfirearms
11-09-2009, 9:58 PM
Since when did DOJ memos have the weight of law? Also, this memo clearly violates 12082 which clearly states, "The dealer may not charge any additional fees."

The DOJ claims a dealer can charge a storage fee in direct violation of penal code? Sounds like another detachable magazine SKS debacle in the making.

Seesm
11-10-2009, 12:00 AM
I personally will make sure I tell lots of people if this... That is $15 they would never out of me again if that happen to me. And ahh yeah isn't that a additional fee?

halifax
11-10-2009, 3:02 AM
If you read the line "following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the FFL would have to NOTIFY the buyer/transferee at the end of hte 10 day period that he can pick it up. Failure to NOTIFY the buyer/transferee means he can't charge a fee whether it is posted or not. The "notification" must be done after the 10the day, not at the time of purchase.

2. Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee.

The "OR" has meaning.

halifax
11-10-2009, 3:09 AM
Since when did DOJ memos have the weight of law? Also, this memo clearly violates 12082 which clearly states, "The dealer may not charge any additional fees."

The DOJ claims a dealer can charge a storage fee in direct violation of penal code? Sounds like another detachable magazine SKS debacle in the making.

I'm not trying to justify the practice, I'm just saying that the dealers that do charge storage fees may have a leg to stand on given this DOJ "Information Bulletin".

Just out of curiosity how is a required lock purchase not an additional fee. If the buyer has no other way to satisfy the safety device requirement, am I required to provide the lock for free under 12082?

kemasa
11-10-2009, 8:41 AM
If you notice, the DROS fee is a bit less than it is today, which clearly shows that is rather old. The laws regarding PPTs have changed due to the abuse of dealers not following the intent of the law, so the law was changed to make clear the intent.

So, if you want to follow that letter, you need to make sure that the code sections have not changed since that letter was written. Also, since the letter is not the penal code, you also need to make sure that the view is still the same.

halifax
11-10-2009, 10:52 AM
If you notice, the DROS fee is a bit less than it is today, which clearly shows that is rather old. The laws regarding PPTs have changed due to the abuse of dealers not following the intent of the law, so the law was changed to make clear the intent.

No need to deduce the date from the body of the text. The date on the bulletin is clear, 03/26/01. I am unaware if the original text of 12082 has changed.


So, if you want to follow that letter, you need to make sure that the code sections have not changed since that letter was written. Also, since the letter is not the penal code, you also need to make sure that the view is still the same.

Again, I (if that "you" was intended for me) don't charge storage fees. I was only pointing to a DOJ communique that might be used by those who do, rightly or wrongly. You are right that those that do should check with the DOJ but I have no need to.

tenpercentfirearms
11-10-2009, 5:01 PM
No need to deduce the date from the body of the text. The date on the bulletin is clear, 03/26/01. I am unaware if the original text of 12082 has changed.

Again, I (if that "you" was intended for me) don't charge storage fees. I was only pointing to a DOJ communique that might be used by those who do, rightly or wrongly. You are right that those that do should check with the DOJ but I have no need to.
No this is good that you have brought this up Halifax. We need to get clarification from the DOJ if that memo still stands.

halifax
11-11-2009, 5:01 AM
No this is good that you have brought this up Halifax. We need to get clarification from the DOJ if that memo still stands.

Wes, thank you for recognizing what I have been trying to get across.

While you're checking :D, see what their view is on my other question:

Just out of curiosity how is a required lock purchase not an additional fee. If the buyer has no other way to satisfy the safety device requirement, am I required to provide the lock for free under 12082?

-Jim

gunn
11-11-2009, 10:06 AM
You should be using Roger's Relics for all your ppt needs, or RMB Enterprises in Milpitas. BAGV sucks.

+1 for Roger's Relics. I purchased a P225 right before the christmas holiday; it was likely to arrive @ RR while I was away on vacation for two weeks. When i called Lisa to confirm if this was OK, she told me to "enjoy my vacation and we'll deal with the paperwork when you get back."

Between that kind of customer service and their incremental price of $15 for every additional firearm on the same DROS (vs doubling their fee like other FFLs), they are my first choice in the Bay Area.
-g