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View Full Version : Do you think the Ft. Hood Shooting will be the nail in the 5.7's coffin?


IDPA4U
11-06-2009, 7:37 PM
The anti gun crowd has had the 5.7 on the top of the chopping block( with the 50 BMG) for a while now. Do you think this incident will push the legislation along to ban the "cop killer round" and the guns that fire it?

yellowfin
11-06-2009, 7:40 PM
It's a non issue in this case. 5.7 is basically a glorified .22 Mag, nothing special about it at all.

IDPA4U
11-06-2009, 7:56 PM
It's a non issue in this case. 5.7 is basically a glorified .22 Mag, nothing special about it at all.

I think banning a gun for absurd reasons hurts our cause even if its something that most don't shoot. It opens the door to more senseless gun laws based on bs claims and gives the other side a victory they can build on. They will say "their is no reason to own a pistol with a 30 round magazine, their is no reason to own a 50 caliber rifle." Those us who don't own them (especially in this state) will say "oh well" I don't shoot those anyway." However, those incremental gains quickly become, "their is no reason to own a semiautomatic pistol." We can't budge on any senseless new gun laws period.

Ten Rounder
11-06-2009, 8:05 PM
In common use, should be protected via Heller.

Like banning a Ruger Mk I, because it is a favorite hit man pistol, not likely.

MrSlippyFist
11-06-2009, 8:07 PM
They should ban people who call it the 'cop killer round' - any round can be a killer.

IDPA4U
11-06-2009, 8:18 PM
They should ban people who call it the 'cop killer round' - any round can be a killer.

Couldn't agree more!

G17GUY
11-06-2009, 8:31 PM
They should allow members of service to carry in any way they wish. They are trained and capable and the situation would have been less of an issue had they not had to wait for an officer to arrive.

kf6tac
11-06-2009, 8:35 PM
It's a non issue in this case. 5.7 is basically a glorified .22 Mag, nothing special about it at all.

Good luck convincing the politicians of that when they have the Brady nuts screaming about how it's a cop-killer.

yellowfin
11-06-2009, 8:36 PM
I think banning a gun for absurd reasons hurts our cause even if its something that most don't shoot. It opens the door to more senseless gun laws based on bs claims and gives the other side a victory they can build on. They will say "their is no reason to own a pistol with a 30 round magazine, their is no reason to own a 50 caliber rifle." Those us who don't own them (especially in this state) will say "oh well" I don't shoot those anyway." However, those incremental gains quickly become, "their is no reason to own a semiautomatic pistol." We can't budge on any senseless new gun laws period.I'm not saying it's not worth us defending, I'm saying they don't have any traction to go after it. It makes the gun banners sound like they're on LSD, crack, and meth simultaneously--if they're not already.

Swatguy10_15
11-06-2009, 8:40 PM
The incident at Ft. Hood wont affect weapons at all.Its a military installation. Those soldiers didnt die because it was a particular caliber..There are plenty of weapons available. Whether he had his issued weapon or personally owned, the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim, especially those with ties to the problematic areas of the world. Anyone can "say" theyre dedicated to america and such..Just like he did. Whn truly they are the enemy.. Like an enemy they change tactics..Its not even remotely unfathomable to think terrorist organizations have instructed members to join the service..get the inside scoop..411..his guy preached that suicide bombers were comparable to soldiers that jumped on grenades..He was obviously playing for the other team..But because he spoke arabic we lost fellow soldiers.. RIP.

Alaric
11-06-2009, 8:41 PM
The five seven ammo has already shot up into Midways "most popular" handgun ammo list. I'm fairly certain that's a first. Stock up now if you got one. http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseCategories.aspx?tabId=3&categoryId=691&categoryString=653***

1JimMarch
11-06-2009, 9:26 PM
Waitasec...the guy's "kill ratio" to hits wasn't all that good, was it? More injured than killed, plus the lady cop who stopped him did so after taking a round. 12 dead, 31 wounded? That's hardly evidence that it's some sort of super-duper-killer.

pnkssbtz
11-06-2009, 9:45 PM
Waitasec...the guy's "kill ratio" to hits wasn't all that good, was it? More injured than killed, plus the lady cop who stopped him did so after taking a round. 12 dead, 31 wounded? That's hardly evidence that it's some sort of super-duper-killer.
You do realize that the people calling for the 5.7mm ban aren't too skilled at math?

All they care is about looks.


If it's black plastic and looks evil = poop in pants.

BigDogatPlay
11-06-2009, 9:50 PM
No LEOs were killed in the Ft. Hood encounter... so labelling the 5.7 as a "cop killer" is just plain stoopid.

Which, of course, explains exactly why the anti's would use that label.

blackrifle242
11-06-2009, 10:09 PM
"Semi Automatic Assualt Pistol" is what channel 7 news called it. We need to have a volunteer at each news station and anytime someone says something stupid about firearms, we are allowed to slap them on live TV.

RRangel
11-06-2009, 10:21 PM
No doubt the gun banning drones will seize this as an opportunity somewhere in this nation. This incident happened in what may be considered a very secure environment, and what should be considered a failure that had nothing to do with caliber.

Texas is also a very pro-gun state. I don't think we'll be hearing from the locals about whatever particular caliber. I would expect to hear more about it from the usual anti-liberty suspects. Something tells me they may not get far. The media isn't as good at getting away with lies today as they once were.

freakshow10mm
11-06-2009, 10:36 PM
Texas is not all it's cracked up to be for gun laws.

jchen76@gmail.com
11-06-2009, 10:37 PM
Waiting for police/FBI reports to surface, # of rounds fired, etc.. Did they mention what the other weapon he used was? Or were both FN 5.7?

grunz
11-06-2009, 11:07 PM
Even Brady admits NO COPS EVER KILLED by 5.7......

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-fort-hood-shooter-used-cop-killer-armor-piercing-handgun-r-1257543702

Mssr. Eleganté
11-06-2009, 11:20 PM
If they ban it, they will probably ban it by name. Then FN will come out with their new FN.224 Sporter pistol.

jdberger
11-06-2009, 11:21 PM
Waitasec...the guy's "kill ratio" to hits wasn't all that good, was it? More injured than killed, plus the lady cop who stopped him did so after taking a round. 12 dead, 31 wounded? That's hardly evidence that it's some sort of super-duper-killer.

Exactly. In fact - it sorta points the other way. I think that the lady cop was hit 3 or 4 times....

Scoutout
11-06-2009, 11:22 PM
"the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim"

Really? Ever heard of separation of church and state? This ones a non-starter.

JDoe
11-07-2009, 7:33 AM
Waiting for police/FBI reports to surface, # of rounds fired, etc.. Did they mention what the other weapon he used was? Or were both FN 5.7?

Smith & Wesson .357 revolver.

RRangel
11-07-2009, 7:51 AM
Do you think the Ft. Hood Shooting will be the nail in the 357 Magnum's coffin?

Quiet
11-07-2009, 8:03 AM
More injured than killed, plus the lady cop who stopped him did so after taking a round.

She was shot three times by the suspect.

RandyD
11-07-2009, 8:49 AM
"the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim"

Really? Ever heard of separation of church and state? This ones a non-starter.

I agree with the person you quoted, and I believe Muslims need to be vetted more carefully before allowing them to serve in the armed forces.

Quoting the worn out common phase, "separation of church and state" is meaningless unless you explain your point. If you want to make a scholarly comment on on religion and the state, go to the original source, the First Amendment. It states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Nothing in the First Amendment would prohibit the military from not recruiting Muslims.

.454
11-07-2009, 9:07 AM
the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim, especially those with ties to the problematic areas of the world.

Afraid that's impossible. We desperately need personnel who speaks the language and knows the culture of the Middle East. A better job at screening, checking their background and making sure their allegiance is to this country not to other organizations or religions - that what we need to do in order to prevent similar attacks in the future.

But most important at all, we need to cut the politically correct liberal bullcrap from investigating and getting rid if necessary of the military personnel who shows signs of trouble regardless of their race or ethnic origin. In the case of Hassan, he clearly gave all the signs his true allegiance was to the Prophet Muhammad and his call for Jihad, not to his country and uniform. Yet none of his superiors made the decision to get rid of him.
Why? Because all his superiors were scared if they made the decision to kick him out, they would have been labeled as islamophobic and racist.

.454
11-07-2009, 9:36 AM
Listen to what this lady (who was born and raised in Lebanon) has to say about the mortal danger of political correctness when dealing with domestic Islamic terrorism:

5UHpAd73yEE

Act For America (http://www.actforamerica.com/)

spyderco monkey
11-07-2009, 12:54 PM
So, he used a 5-7?

Scratch705
11-07-2009, 12:58 PM
yes..... as if the thread title wasn't obvious enough... :p :D

this just sucks... cause it may potentially make it even more expensive to pickup a FN 5-7 handgun.. which is on my very short dream handgun ownership list....

NorCal
11-07-2009, 1:22 PM
I agree with the person you quoted, and I believe Muslims need to be vetted more carefully before allowing them to serve in the armed forces.

Quoting the worn out common phase, "separation of church and state" is meaningless unless you explain your point. If you want to make a scholarly comment on on religion and the state, go to the original source, the First Amendment. It states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Nothing in the First Amendment would prohibit the military from not recruiting Muslims.


You do realize that there are an estimated 4000-12000 Muslims in the armed forces right now? 4000-12000 people who love their country and would die to defend it? The argument "if we didn't allow Muslims into the military, this wouldn't have happened" is just as invalid as "if we ban guns, this wouldn't have happened."

Anyone, and I mean anyone, could have walked into Fort Hood and just started shooting. How would banning loyal patriots from the military change that?

Mikeb
11-07-2009, 2:08 PM
Thinking about Ft. Hood I can blame many things... Somehow I don't blame the gun.
take care
Mike

vandal
11-07-2009, 2:38 PM
Well lets wake the guy up, get out the waterboard, and find out what his motivations were. I don't get how someone can pledge allegiance to the USA while following a religion that says non-Muslims have 3 choices: Convert, Die, or pay a poll tax and accept Islamic superiority.

IIRC the last intra-Military pre-meditated attack was also by a Muslim soldier, fragging a superior officer in Iraq.

Islam IS the Religion of piece... a piece here, a piece there...

As for the 5.7, I'm surprised at the body count.

You do realize that there are an estimated 4000-12000 Muslims in the armed forces right now? 4000-12000 people who love their country and would die to defend it? The argument "if we didn't allow Muslims into the military, this wouldn't have happened" is just as invalid as "if we ban guns, this wouldn't have happened."

Anyone, and I mean anyone, could have walked into Fort Hood and just started shooting. How would banning loyal patriots from the military change that?

a1c
11-07-2009, 2:48 PM
Well lets wake the guy up, get out the waterboard, and find out what his motivations were. I don't get how someone can pledge allegiance to the USA while following a religion that says non-Muslims have 3 choices: Convert, Die, or pay a poll tax and accept Islamic superiority.

IIRC the last intra-Military pre-meditated attack was also by a Muslim soldier, fragging a superior officer in Iraq.

Islam IS the Religion of piece... a piece here, a piece there...

As for the 5.7, I'm surprised at the body count.

I don't know what your personal experience is regarding Islam and Muslims, but the Muslims I know - practicing or not - don't see things that way. At all. Their version of Islam has little in common with that of so-called jihadists.

Not all Christians believe that those who don't get saved will go to hell. Same with Muslims. Some are crazed fanatics who believe in a literal interpretation of the Koran verses. Most see the book like a moral guide rather than the literal word of God. Just like most Christians around the world.

HUTCH 7.62
11-07-2009, 2:49 PM
The incident at Ft. Hood wont affect weapons at all.Its a military installation. Those soldiers didnt die because it was a particular caliber..There are plenty of weapons available. Whether he had his issued weapon or personally owned, the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim, especially those with ties to the problematic areas of the world. Anyone can "say" theyre dedicated to america and such..Just like he did. Whn truly they are the enemy.. Like an enemy they change tactics..Its not even remotely unfathomable to think terrorist organizations have instructed members to join the service..get the inside scoop..411..his guy preached that suicide bombers were comparable to soldiers that jumped on grenades..He was obviously playing for the other team..But because he spoke arabic we lost fellow soldiers.. RIP.

+1 ;)

a1c
11-07-2009, 3:20 PM
I agree with the person you quoted, and I believe Muslims need to be vetted more carefully before allowing them to serve in the armed forces.

Quoting the worn out common phase, "separation of church and state" is meaningless unless you explain your point. If you want to make a scholarly comment on on religion and the state, go to the original source, the First Amendment. It states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Nothing in the First Amendment would prohibit the military from not recruiting Muslims.

DoD directives in place would prohibit it. And it's a good thing.

And it sounds like you believe that just because something is not specifically prohibited in the Constitution, then it's OK. That's not the way it works.

Vectrexer
11-07-2009, 3:20 PM
The anti gun crowd has had the 5.7 on the top of the chopping block( with the 50 BMG) for a while now. Do you think this incident will push the legislation along to ban the "cop killer round" and the guns that fire it?

No.

Vectrexer
11-07-2009, 3:22 PM
I don't know what your personal experience is regarding Islam and Muslims, but the Muslims I know - practicing or not - don't see things that way. At all. Their version of Islam has little in common with that of so-called jihadists.

Not all Christians believe that those who don't get saved will go to hell. Same with Muslims. Some are crazed fanatics who believe in a literal interpretation of the Koran verses. Most see the book like a moral guide rather than the literal word of God. Just like most Christians around the world.

Instead let's give them the option of serving duty in Adak Alaska instead of the desert.

Kharn
11-07-2009, 3:25 PM
I think most people will realize its a terrorism problem and not a hunk of metal problem.

.454
11-07-2009, 3:31 PM
Round-up of Jihad in America just this past month

Since mid-October, here are the highlights of jihad activity in America. Don't tell the media or the authorities, they are busy searching behind Nidal Hasan's jihad.

Muslim Garbed Jihadi Nidal Hasan Screamed "Allah Akbar" as he Mowed Down US Soldiers at Fort Hood, Death Toll Rises http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/going-muslim-on-a-photographer-outside-michigan-mosque.htm

Son of an Imam Killed in Gun Battle with the FBI in Detroit is Arrested http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/son-of-an-imam-killed-in-gun-battle-with-the-fbi-in-detroit-is-arrested.html

Michigan Mosque leader killed during Islamic gun battle with fed http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/michigan-islamic-leader-killed-during-gun-battle-with-feds.html

Hush Hush: Huge Fed/FBI Raid on Chicago Halal Goat Meat Slaughterhouse http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/hush-hush-huge-fedfbi-raid-on-chicago-halal-goat-meat-slaughterhouse.html

Boston Muslim Terrorist Son of MAS (Muslim American Society) Leader http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/boston-muslim-terrororist-son-of-mas-muslim-american-society-leader.html

Another Conviction of Muslims Engaged in Plotting Islamic Attacks Against American Overseas http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/-another-conviction-of-muslims-engaged-in-plotting-islamic-attacks-against-american-overseas-.html

NY Imam Indicted in NYC Terror Attack Plot http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/ny-imam-indicted-in-nyc-terror-attack-plot.html

Massive Muslim Attack Averted: "plot to kill two prominent US politicians and carry out a holy war by attacking shoppers in US malls and American troops in Iraq" http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/massive-muslim-attack-averted-plot-to-kill-two-prominent-us-politicians-and-carry-out-a-holy-war-by-.html

Obama First Female Veiled Islamist Appointee, Dalia Mogahed, Promotes Sharia, Says it's "Misunderstood http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/obama-first-female-veiled-islamist-appointee-dalia-mogahed-promotes-sharia-says-its-misunderstood.html

"New York Muslim indicted for plotting to kill U.S. troops http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/09/new-york-muslim-indicted-for-plotting-to-kill-us-troops.html

FBI arrests Jordanian for downtown Dallas bomb plot... http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/092409dnmetbombarrest.1b177db8b.html

NYC: Muslims Protest "RACIAL PROFILING" in wake of arrests in major jihad terror plot http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/nyc-muslims-protest-racial-profiling-in-wake-of-arrests-in-major-jihad-terror-plo.html

Illinois man charged in plot to bomb federal offices... http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2447383520090924

Terror suspects accused of targeting Marine base in Quantico... http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE58N6YT20090924

Men vanish after taking photos of Philly subway system...http://cbs3.com/local/SEPTA.Broad.Street.2.1206878.html

Yet somehow, liberals believe there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.

NorCal
11-07-2009, 4:00 PM
Round-up of Jihad in America just this past month

Since mid-October, here are the highlights of jihad activity in America. Don't tell the media or the authorities, they are busy searching behind Nidal Hasan's jihad.

Muslim Garbed Jihadi Nidal Hasan Screamed "Allah Akbar" as he Mowed Down US Soldiers at Fort Hood, Death Toll Rises http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/going-muslim-on-a-photographer-outside-michigan-mosque.htm

Son of an Imam Killed in Gun Battle with the FBI in Detroit is Arrested http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/son-of-an-imam-killed-in-gun-battle-with-the-fbi-in-detroit-is-arrested.html

Michigan Mosque leader killed during Islamic gun battle with fed http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/michigan-islamic-leader-killed-during-gun-battle-with-feds.html

Hush Hush: Huge Fed/FBI Raid on Chicago Halal Goat Meat Slaughterhouse http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/hush-hush-huge-fedfbi-raid-on-chicago-halal-goat-meat-slaughterhouse.html

Boston Muslim Terrorist Son of MAS (Muslim American Society) Leader http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/boston-muslim-terrororist-son-of-mas-muslim-american-society-leader.html

Another Conviction of Muslims Engaged in Plotting Islamic Attacks Against American Overseas http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/-another-conviction-of-muslims-engaged-in-plotting-islamic-attacks-against-american-overseas-.html

NY Imam Indicted in NYC Terror Attack Plot http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/ny-imam-indicted-in-nyc-terror-attack-plot.html

Massive Muslim Attack Averted: "plot to kill two prominent US politicians and carry out a holy war by attacking shoppers in US malls and American troops in Iraq" http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/massive-muslim-attack-averted-plot-to-kill-two-prominent-us-politicians-and-carry-out-a-holy-war-by-.html

Obama First Female Veiled Islamist Appointee, Dalia Mogahed, Promotes Sharia, Says it's "Misunderstood http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/obama-first-female-veiled-islamist-appointee-dalia-mogahed-promotes-sharia-says-its-misunderstood.html

"New York Muslim indicted for plotting to kill U.S. troops http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/09/new-york-muslim-indicted-for-plotting-to-kill-us-troops.html

FBI arrests Jordanian for downtown Dallas bomb plot... http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/092409dnmetbombarrest.1b177db8b.html

NYC: Muslims Protest "RACIAL PROFILING" in wake of arrests in major jihad terror plot http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/nyc-muslims-protest-racial-profiling-in-wake-of-arrests-in-major-jihad-terror-plo.html

Illinois man charged in plot to bomb federal offices... http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2447383520090924

Terror suspects accused of targeting Marine base in Quantico... http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE58N6YT20090924

Men vanish after taking photos of Philly subway system...http://cbs3.com/local/SEPTA.Broad.Street.2.1206878.html

Yet somehow, liberals believe there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.

Well I can see what someone's homepage is set to! Seriously, do you really believe all that Atlas Shrugs nonsense. You know there is a reason none of these fairy tales are picked up by major news agencies (Fox) right? You may not realize this, but on the internet people can spin any piece of information anyway they want, and I can see that Atlas Shrugs only spins it one way.

.454
11-07-2009, 4:44 PM
Well I can see what someone's homepage is set to! Seriously, do you really believe all that Atlas Shrugs nonsense. You know there is a reason none of these fairy tales are picked up by major news agencies (Fox) right? You may not realize this, but on the internet people can spin any piece of information anyway they want, and I can see that Atlas Shrugs only spins it one way.

I am sorry pal, but shooting the messenger did not addressed the problem. Not one bit.
Every single article posted by Atlas Shrugged is linked and documented to a different news story picked up either from a newspaper or a TV news station. You don't even have to try hard to find those external links, they are right there, colored blue and in your face, all you have to do is click on them. Reuters, AP, Canada Free Press, Dallas News, CBS, Pajamas Media, Examiner, Yahoo News and so on. These are not "fairy tales" as you call them but real news, collected by Pamela Geller and posted on a single page for your convenience.
Your attempt to characterize the facts as "nonsense" by attacking the credibility of the source is one major fail.

a1c
11-07-2009, 4:46 PM
I am sorry pal, but shooting the messenger did not addressed the problem. Not one bit.
Every single article posted by Atlas Shrugged is linked and documented to a different news story picked up either from a newspaper or a TV news station. These are not "fairy tales" as you call them but real news, collected by Pamela Geller and posted on a single page for your convenience.
Your attempt to characterize the facts as untrue by attacking the credibility of the source is one major fail.

Atlas Shrugged fails because of its obsession in isolating specific stories to make a point. It follows the same dishonest logic as the Muslim fundamentalists who compile similar lists of links on their websites to demonstrate how evil America is.

NorCal
11-07-2009, 5:20 PM
I am sorry pal, but shooting the messenger did not addressed the problem. Not one bit.
Every single article posted by Atlas Shrugged is linked and documented to a different news story picked up either from a newspaper or a TV news station. You don't even have to try hard to find those external links, they are right there, colored blue and in your face, all you have to do is click on them. Reuters, AP, Canada Free Press, Dallas News, CBS, Pajamas Media, Examiner, Yahoo News and so on. These are not "fairy tales" as you call them but real news, collected by Pamela Geller and posted on a single page for your convenience.
Your attempt to characterize the facts as "nonsense" by attacking the credibility of the source is one major fail.

I'm not trying to say that extremist Muslims are not a threat to our country, they clearly are, and we should be doing everything to stop them. However, you listed a bunch of sources that took actual news, dressed them up, and used them as promoters of hatred and intolerance of Muslims. 99.9% of Muslims in this country are peaceful, law abiding citizens. If people like you had your way, we would round them up and put them in camps.

What you did was cherry pick different stories to make it seem as though Islamic extremism is more rampant in our country than is really is. Just remember this, since September 11, 2001, 13 people have been killed in the United States because of Islamic terrorism, but another 125,000 people have been killed as a result of American-on-American homicide.

Which do you think is a bigger threat?

camsoup
11-07-2009, 5:27 PM
"the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim"

Really? Ever heard of separation of church and state? This ones a non-starter.

My idea of a preventative measure would be to not have military basses be "gun free zones"....let every enlisted man and woman carry a firearm, after all they are entrusted with doing so in battle, but not on a base???....if that was the case Mr. Hasen would not have killed nearly as many.

.454
11-07-2009, 5:37 PM
I'm not trying to say that extremist Muslims are not a threat to our country, they clearly are, and we should be doing everything to stop them. However, you listed a bunch of sources that took actual news, dressed them up, and used them as promoters of hatred and intolerance of Muslims. 99.9% of Muslims in this country are peaceful, law abiding citizens. If people like you had your way, we would round them up and put them in camps.

First and foremost, please stop putting words in my mouth. Nobody said most Muslims are terrorists and that we should "round them up and put them in camps". That only can happen in your vivid imagination.
Secondly, you continue to persist in your fail: discounting legitimate news stories as untrue. I have yet to see you bringing any FACT based rebuttal to any of the stories presented. So far, you did not did that; all you have done so was to shoot the messenger, smear and accuse people of bias and Islamophobia.


What you did was cherry pick different stories to make it seem as though Islamic extremism is more rampant in our country than is really is.

What Pam Geller did (not me) was to simply collect legitimate news from legitimate sources regarding radical Islamist attempts to kill Americans during the last 30 days. Considering the evident truth we are not at war with the radical Hindus, radical Buddhists or radical Jews since when is that news collecting effort "cherry picking"?

Just remember this, since September 11, 2001, 13 people have been killed in the United States because of Islamic terrorism

Really? Only 13 people? Are you sure you don't want to verify your sources again before making this absurd claim again?

NorCal
11-07-2009, 5:42 PM
Really? Only 13 people? Are you sure you don't want to verify your sources again before making this absurd claim again?


I'm not trying to spread lies, its just that I couldn't find any resource that keeps statistics like that. If I am wrong please correct me.

bigcalidave
11-07-2009, 5:48 PM
I'm not trying to say that extremist Muslims are not a threat to our country, they clearly are, and we should be doing everything to stop them. However, you listed a bunch of sources that took actual news, dressed them up, and used them as promoters of hatred and intolerance of Muslims. 99.9% of Muslims in this country are peaceful, law abiding citizens. If people like you had your way, we would round them up and put them in camps.

What you did was cherry pick different stories to make it seem as though Islamic extremism is more rampant in our country than is really is. Just remember this, since September 11, 2001, 13 people have been killed in the United States because of Islamic terrorism, but another 125,000 people have been killed as a result of American-on-American homicide.

Which do you think is a bigger threat?

Where did you get those statistics from?
IF you couldn't find a resource that keeps those statistics you are admitting you just made them up, right?

.454
11-07-2009, 5:57 PM
I'm not trying to spread lies, its just that I couldn't find any resource that keeps statistics like that. If I am wrong please correct me.

No problem. I am posting only the "lone wolf" Islamist cases (similar to the Ft. Hood terrorist) where only one attacker stricken by the "sudden Jihad syndrome" managed to kill or wound his victims.

The list of the cases where the attackers attempted to kill but were stopped before they could actually harm anybody is much, much longer.

I am not even mentioning the list of the plots foiled by the FBI where Jihadist sleeper cells (with 2 or more terrorists working toghether) were stopped before they could act. I believe that number alone is 21 since 9/11.

July 2002 — Egyptian-born Hesham Mohammed Hadayet walked into the Israeli Airlines El Al terminal at the Los Angeles airport and began shooting Jews. He killed two and injured another four. He was known to sympathize with al Qaeda.

September 2002 — Patrick Gott killed one and wounded another in the New Orleans airport. He had entered the terminal with a shotgun and his Koran.

October 2002 — John Mohammed and Lee Malvo killed 13 people in the Washington, DC area. Both were converts to Islam and had attended a jihad training camp in southwestern Virginia.

March 2003 – US Army sergeant Hasan Karim Akbar, born Mark Fidel Kools, killed two officers of the 327th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. “A Muslim should see himself as a Muslim only. His loyalty should be to Islam only.” Source

August 2003 — Mohammed Ali Alayed almost totally decapitated his erstwhile Jewish friend, Ariel Sellouk, following Alayed’s getting serious about his Islamic faith. He went to a mosque after killing Sellouk.

October 2005 — Joel Henry Hinrichs III, a convert to Islam, was an engineering student at Oklahoma University. His student career ended when a bomb he had strapped on himself went off prematurely outside a crowed stadium, killing only himself. Police subsequently cleared explosives from the apartment that Hinrichs had shared with Muslim students from Pakistan.

May 2006 — Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill student, rented an SUV and drove it through a crowded part of the campus — intentionally trying to hit people and wounding nine. In a series of letters to the student newspaper, he explained that he acted in obedience to Koranic dictates.

June 2006 — Michael Ford, a Muslim convert, walked into work at a Safeway warehouse in Denver and opened fire on his coworkers, killing one and injuring five. Relatives explained that he was being teased at work because he’s a Muslim and he could not take it anymore.

July 2006 — Naveed Alzal Haq, a Pakistani, walked into the Jewish Federation Center in downtown Seattle and shot six women — killing one and wounding five (one of whom was pregnant). He stated matter-of-factly: “I am a Muslim American angry at Israel.”

August 2006 — Omeed Aziz Popal, a Muslim Afghan refugee, used his SUV as a weapon and ran down at least 14 people and a bicyclist in the San Francisco Bay area. He was targeting Jewish neighborhoods to terrorize.

January 2007 — A 22-year-old Muslim, Ismail Yassin Mohamed, stole a car in Minneapolis and rammed it into other cars before stealing a van and doing the same, injuring several drivers and pedestrians before police finally caught up with him. Mohamed called himself a “terrorist.”

February 2007 — Ibrihim Ahmed, a Nashville cab driver and Muslim, was enraged that two passengers did not agree with him about Islam. When they got out of the cab, he tried to run them down, striking one in a parking lot.

February 2007 –Sulejman Talovic, a Bosnian Muslim immigrant, went to a Salt Lake City mosque on a Friday night. Then he went to one of only two malls in the state which prohibits civilian carrying of concealed weapons. He killed five before an off-duty cop (not subject to the ban) used a concealed firearm to stop his murder spree.

June 2009 – Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, born Carlos Bledsoe, shoots two U.S. soldiers, killing one, at an Arkansas military recruiting center

I am waiting for you to apologize. Not holding my breath.

Packy14
11-07-2009, 6:04 PM
I have friends who are muslim, but I have also read the Koran.. it is a religion of peace as long as you believe in Allah, and by all means do not believe in Christ or anything other than Allah. I have read it, and its a load of bull that its a religion of peace. I will post Sura's (verses) if needed.

Crazed_SS
11-07-2009, 6:05 PM
. I will post Sura's (verses) if needed.

Sura means Chapter.

a1c
11-07-2009, 6:09 PM
I have friends who are muslim, but I have also read the Koran.. it is a religion of peace as long as you believe in Allah, and by all means do not believe in Christ or anything other than Allah. I have read it, and its a load of bull that its a religion of peace. I will post Sura's (verses) if needed.

Yes, and Leviticus is filled with love and compassion.

Alaric
11-07-2009, 6:42 PM
Islam has the capacity to be as much a religion of war and oppression as much as it can be a religion of peace. Exactly the same as Christianity in this respect (ever hear of the crusades or the inquisition?). It's all in what the follower chooses to pick out of their reading of the scripture.

That said, we are at war and every single Islamist in America should be subject to increased scrutiny, especially when seeking to join the military. Anyone in the least bit janky should be barred from service, at the least.

To the poster who said there are 4000-12000 Islamists serving in the military, how many of those are potential security threats? If only 1% are, that means there are 40-120 infiltrators serving in the armed forces, ready to strike when we are least prepared or provide other assistance to the enemy.

Our servitude to political correctness in the face of an enemy who abides by no such foolhardy notions will only serve to contribute to our downfall.

a1c
11-07-2009, 6:48 PM
To the poster who said there are 4000-12000 Islamists serving in the military, how many of those are potential security threats? If only 1% are, that means there are 40-120 infiltrators serving in the armed forces, ready to strike when we are least prepared or provide other assistance to the enemy.

Our servitude to political correctness in the face of an enemy who abides by no such foolhardy notions will only serve to contribute to our downfall.

The same standards of scrutiny should apply to all. Let's not forget that we have documented evidence of gangs infiltrating the Army and the Marine Corps as well.

doctor_vals
11-07-2009, 7:02 PM
Afraid that's impossible. We desperately need personnel who speaks the language and knows the culture of the Middle East. A better job at screening, checking their background and making sure their allegiance is to this country not to other organizations or religions - that what we need to do in order to prevent similar attacks in the future.

But most important at all, we need to cut the politically correct liberal bullcrap from investigating and getting rid if necessary of the military personnel who shows signs of trouble regardless of their race or ethnic origin. In the case of Hassan, he clearly gave all the signs his true allegiance was to the Prophet Muhammad and his call for Jihad, not to his country and uniform. Yet none of his superiors made the decision to get rid of him.
Why? Because all his superiors were scared if they made the decision to kick him out, they would have been labeled as islamophobic and racist.

I completely agreed.

Alaric
11-07-2009, 7:07 PM
The same standards of scrutiny should apply to all. Let's not forget that we have documented evidence of gangs infiltrating the Army and the Marine Corps as well.

When people are going through a security checkpoint in an airport, should security be paying the same attention to some blue haired grandma from Topeka as to the young middle eastern guy in a Dishdashah? Keep in mind, security is limited, unless you want to live in a police state.

No, we pick and choose those to pay extra attention to. Islamists should be at the top of the list.

ZRX61
11-07-2009, 7:37 PM
They should allow members of service to carry in any way they wish. They are trained and capable and the situation would have been less of an issue had they not had to wait for an officer to arrive.


Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

Meplat
11-07-2009, 8:24 PM
Where do you get that nonsense?:rolleyes:


Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

Cyc Wid It
11-07-2009, 8:31 PM
...the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim, especially those with ties to the problematic areas of the world. Anyone can "say" theyre dedicated to america and such..Just like he did. Whn truly they are the enemy.. Like an enemy they change tactics..Its not even remotely unfathomable to think terrorist organizations have instructed members to join the service..get the inside scoop..411..his guy preached that suicide bombers were comparable to soldiers that jumped on grenades..He was obviously playing for the other team..But because he spoke arabic we lost fellow soldiers.. RIP.

Yeah... am I the only person who finds this to be somewhat of a GROSS generalization? I'm not even Muslim and I find that offensive.

Pont
11-07-2009, 8:45 PM
When people are going through a security checkpoint in an airport, should security be paying the same attention to some blue haired grandma from Topeka as to the young middle eastern guy in a Dishdashah? Keep in mind, security is limited, unless you want to live in a police state.

No, we pick and choose those to pay extra attention to. Islamists should be at the top of the list.

Amateur profiling like that actually decreases security. It's trivially easy for your opponents to detect your profiling and pick an agent that is less likely to be searched.

That blue-haired old lady from Topeka may have terminal cancer and grandchild being held hostage.

dwa
11-07-2009, 8:48 PM
The incident at Ft. Hood wont affect weapons at all.Its a military installation. Those soldiers didnt die because it was a particular caliber..There are plenty of weapons available. Whether he had his issued weapon or personally owned, the preventative measure to this is to STOP recruiting people who are muslim, especially those with ties to the problematic areas of the world. Anyone can "say" theyre dedicated to america and such..Just like he did. Whn truly they are the enemy.. Like an enemy they change tactics..Its not even remotely unfathomable to think terrorist organizations have instructed members to join the service..get the inside scoop..411..his guy preached that suicide bombers were comparable to soldiers that jumped on grenades..He was obviously playing for the other team..But because he spoke arabic we lost fellow soldiers.. RIP.

http://iraq.pigstye.net/article.php/IsshakDaniel

http://iraq.pigstye.net/images/articles/IsshakDaniel_1_original.jpg

Tell that to him, i knew him, he died while we were over there, how many tours have you done for your country, if you haven't why not you seem to be able to question others patriotism maybe we should question yours.

FORWARD OPERATING BASE McHENRY, Iraq — It was a goofy, infectious laugh, so strange and arresting it almost sounded cartoonish.

It started out small and built to a high-pitched crescendo so uniquely odd that at times people thought he was faking it. But it was unmistakable, soldiers said, and it made others laugh, too.

“It was like a hiss, then it just generated into a full-blown I don’t know what,” said Pfc. Justin Joiner, of Headquarters and Headquarters Company for the 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry Regiment

It was the laugh of Staff Sgt. Daniel Isshak, a man known for his humor, grit and compassion among fellow members of the 2-27 Infantry, who remembered him in a memorial ceremony Saturday at this small, remote base southwest of Kirkuk. On Tuesday, Isshak was shot and killed in the city of Hawijah when his convoy suffered a grenade attack and he dismounted to secure the area.

For his actions in combat that day, he was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.




As a Muslim of Russian heritage who spoke fluent Arabic, the 25-year-old from Alta Loma, Calif., was a distinctive soldier who was easygoing in his off time, but completely squared away when his uniform was on, soldiers said.

“He was two different guys,” said Sgt. Brad Fineberg, who worked with Isshak.

At work or play, he had a streak of single-minded tenacity that wouldn’t allow him to quit or back down no matter what the situation, soldiers said. Accomplished at grappling, he made it all the way to the 25th Infantry Division finals, where he was beaten only when he was strangled into unconsciousness, remembered Chaplain Charles Popov.

Later, Popov said he asked Isshak why he hadn’t tapped out to end the match once it became hopeless. “His response was simply, ‘I don’t tap out, sir,’” Popov said.

Isshak wasn’t particularly large or strong, but it was that hard edge that made him a good grappler and a good soldier, Joiner said.

“He was mean as hell, is what it was,” he said. Joiner said the only other time he saw Isshak fall out was when the two tried to drink a bottle of tequila together and got through most if it before Isshak just dropped his head to the table and slept.

“I’ve seen him pass out, but I’ve never seen him quit,” Joiner said.

Isshak used that doggedness to get him through Ranger school after eight punishing months, and carried that attitude to the field. He was strict with his men, and went heavy on the physical training, one soldier said.

“He was [in communications], but it seemed like he had more infantry in him,” Joiner said.

When not on duty, however, Isshak was an everyman who liked to play his guitar and enjoyed acoustic music, Fineberg said.

The loss of Isshak was a tough blow for the more than 800 soldiers at FOB McHenry, who have had a violent start to their yearlong deployment here. Since arriving in mid-August, the 2-27 has lost five men to insurgent attacks.

But the danger didn’t demoralize Isshak, who wanted to be in the thick of things, soldiers said. “He loved his soldiers, he loved being out on patrol,” said Staff Sgt. Christopher Hooten. And, of course, “He had the craziest laugh.”

dwa
11-07-2009, 8:51 PM
Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

what bed wetter put that idea in your head? using that logic if we took all the weapons away from the army in Afghanistan there would be 10 times less casualties, genius

.454
11-07-2009, 9:06 PM
Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

Oh brother...:rolleyes:

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 12:00 AM
im sure swatguy isnt insinuating that ALL muslims are not patriotic.


but come on, this guy openly said, "IM A MUSLIM FIRST" and "SUICIDE BOMBERS ARE HONORABLE"

Hassan should have been discharged and thrown in an interrogation cell.

The MFer even shouted ALLUH AKBAR, if that doesnt make him a damn terrorist i dont know what is.

And rip to Sgt ISHAK, if only more muslims were like him. Hassan is definately not even comparable to a peice of sh1t on Ishaks boot.

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 12:03 AM
Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

sorry man i say alot of dumb stuff on here but your post makes absolutely no sense at all.


i cant believe they wont allow me to join the armed services becausse of my asthma but they allow some jihadist muslim to get deployed.

M. Sage
11-08-2009, 12:38 AM
It's a non issue in this case. 5.7 is basically a glorified .22 Mag, nothing special about it at all.

And the AK47 is basically a re-arranged Garand.... but that doesn't stop them trying to ban it.

dantodd
11-08-2009, 1:39 AM
Great idea, the bullet hole count in the bad guy would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..

FYP.

Crazed_SS
11-08-2009, 7:13 AM
The MFer even shouted ALLUH AKBAR, if that doesnt make him a damn terrorist i dont know what is.


Saying ALLAHU AKBAR doesnt necessarily make someone a terrorist. My dad says it all the time. He's not a terrorist. He sells clothes and lives in a condo in Piedmont.

ALLAHU AKBAR, "God is great" is a pretty common expression with Muslims and Arabs. A Muslim might say it after completing something as mundane as a test at school or arriving safely at home after a daily commute.

.454
11-08-2009, 8:14 AM
Saying ALLAHU AKBAR doesnt necessarily make someone a terrorist. My dad says it all the time. He's not a terrorist. He sells clothes and lives in a condo in Piedmont.

ALLAHU AKBAR, "God is great" is a pretty common expression with Muslims and Arabs. A Muslim might say it after completing something as mundane as a test at school or arriving safely at home after a daily commute.

It is also a pretty common expression with Islamic terrorists. They always say that before they detonate a bomb inside a bus, or shoot children in the back, or drive airliners into sky scrapers.

cadurand
11-08-2009, 8:41 AM
Great idea, the death toll would probably have been in triple digits if everyone in that building was armed..Jesus, are you evening paying attention?

An ARMED cop showed up and shot this guy. She didn't show up and tase him, or throw a rock at him. She pulled out her firearm and shot the guy.

So more guns does not equate to more deaths. Maybe if someone inside the same room as the gunman had been armed they'd have been able to shoot him sooner and LESS people would have died.

I know, crazy how that works isn't it?

gd-bh
11-08-2009, 9:05 AM
Segregation based on appearance has been tried several times in our military history, and each and every time has turned out to be one big bag of "fail". It wasn't too long ago that blacks weren't allowed to be in "regular" units as an example. Or, how about the Japanese internment in WWII? Given the large number of people in uniform, what is the % of nut jobs like this guy compared to the whole, and compare it to the nut jobs in society as a whole.

My bet is that the military has a much lower rate than the general civilian society. So they are probably doing something right. I know this is little solace to those who lost family members or were injured. My comment is not to belittle their pain or sacrifice, but to possibly bring some sanity to this discussion.

I think the key here would be to actually have our armed services members, well "armed" at all times. Just like the various college massacres, the concept of a "gun free zone" is simply an invitation for whatever wack job that comes around to make a big splash in the news and get their "15 minutes of fame" that comes with it. Some carry this quote in their sig's, and it is so true: "An armed society is a polite society". The sooner the limp wristed, hand wringers who are afraid of guns realize this, the less problems we'd have like this in our society. These deaths are needless, pointless, and if they had a backbone, should rest squarely on the back of all the anti's out there.

M. Sage
11-08-2009, 9:39 AM
Saying ALLAHU AKBAR doesnt necessarily make someone a terrorist.

No, it doesn't. But yelling it as you gun down unarmed people is another kettle of fish.

NorCal
11-08-2009, 9:46 AM
No problem. I am posting only the "lone wolf" Islamist cases (similar to the Ft. Hood terrorist) where only one attacker stricken by the "sudden Jihad syndrome" managed to kill or wound his victims.

The list of the cases where the attackers attempted to kill but were stopped before they could actually harm anybody is much, much longer.

I am not even mentioning the list of the plots foiled by the FBI where Jihadist sleeper cells (with 2 or more terrorists working toghether) were stopped before they could act. I believe that number alone is 21 since 9/11.



I am waiting for you to apologize. Not holding my breath.


I am not entirely sure what it is I have to apologize for. There were no compiled statistics for the data that I wanted and I didn't have the time nor the desire to go sifting through endless news stories to find every case, so I used what data I knew.

Aside from that, my point remains valid. There has been substantially more deaths attributed to violence among ourselves than by Islamic extremists. However, that does not stop you from trying to push the idea that radical Muslims are running rampant in our streets, killing at will.

After reading a series of your posts, it is clear that you do not have a very positive view of Muslims as a group and nothing I, or anyone else, say can change that.

It is not worth my time to try arguing with someone that has such a closed mind and a belittling attitude. ("I am waiting for you to apologize. Not holding my breath," Come on, really? Grow up.)

Meplat
11-08-2009, 10:01 AM
And the AK47 is basically a re-arranged Garand.... but that doesn't stop them trying to ban it.

I don't know who would be more insulted by that statment, John Garand or Mikhail Kalashnikov?:D

Linh
11-08-2009, 10:07 AM
The answer to all this isn't what we did in WW2 by rounding up all muslims.

So do you round up just arabs? What about arabs that are christians? what about white muslims?

Do you round up muslims born in america? Cause you'll have to since this guy that shot up everyone was born here.

And about 9/11 only killing 13 people? wow, seriously if I believe that our government just killed 2k+ americans I would be out of this country.

The answer to all this isn't more hate, christians and everyone else need to realize that there are different sect within muslims just like christians.

I'm a christian and I consider the westboro baptist church a hate group and not a church at all. I would never have anything to do with them.

TO EVERYONE if you didn't there is a country out there better than america then you are free to leave. If you hate america so much then you are free not to enter as well.

Let's not go overboard with this hate crap.

What should have happen was CID should have been following this guy 6 months ago. So when he pulls out his handgun they would have capped him.

M. Sage
11-08-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't know who would be more insulted by that statment, John Garand or Mikhail Kalashnikov?:D

The thing is, it's true...

Meplat
11-08-2009, 11:20 AM
I think this guy was a terrorist, but a lone wolf, a jihad of one. That is dam hard to interdict before hand. Given the freedom of thought and expression Americans have. I think the risk is well worth it. It is a truism of freedom that you can pull off dam near anything if you can do it alone and you are willing to die in the process. That is OK by me, freedom is worth the risk.


Back to the original point of the thread. The antis label anything that has a potential to penetrate body armor as “cop killer”. There are several flaws in that logic. To start with I will bet a crisp new $100 dollar bill that I can load any commonly used center fire cartridge to penetrate body armor. Beyond that, cops are not the only ones that use body armor. Organized crime and drug cartels use it. Foreign military personnel (can you say legitimate militia need?) use it. So where does it say in the constitution or court precedent for that matter that one may not defend ones self from people wearing body armor?

Getting these facts across to the general public is our real challenge.

In the mean time, remember to shoot for the head and groin! :43:

dwa
11-08-2009, 11:35 AM
The answer to all this isn't what we did in WW2 by rounding up all muslims.

So do you round up just arabs? What about arabs that are christians? what about white muslims?

Do you round up muslims born in america? Cause you'll have to since this guy that shot up everyone was born here.

And about 9/11 only killing 13 people? wow, seriously if I believe that our government just killed 2k+ americans I would be out of this country.

The answer to all this isn't more hate, christians and everyone else need to realize that there are different sect within muslims just like christians.

I'm a christian and I consider the westboro baptist church a hate group and not a church at all. I would never have anything to do with them.

TO EVERYONE if you didn't there is a country out there better than america then you are free to leave. If you hate america so much then you are free not to enter as well.

Let's not go overboard with this hate crap.

What should have happen was CID should have been following this guy 6 months ago. So when he pulls out his handgun they would have capped him.

exactly how did he say all the stuff on the Internet he supposedly did and no one took notice.

M. Sage
11-08-2009, 11:40 AM
I think this guy was a terrorist, but a lone wolf, a jihad of one. That is dam hard to interdict before hand. Given the freedom of thought and expression Americans have. I think the risk is well worth it. It is a truism of freedom that you can pull off dam near anything if you can do it alone and you are willing to die in the process. That is OK by me, freedom is worth the risk.


Back to the original point of the thread. The antis label anything that has a potential to penetrate body armor as “cop killer”. There are several flaws in that logic. To start with I will bet a crisp new $100 dollar bill that I can load any commonly used center fire cartridge to penetrate body armor. Beyond that, cops are not the only ones that use body armor. Organized crime and drug cartels use it. Foreign military personnel (can you say legitimate militia need?) use it. So where does it say in the constitution or court precedent for that matter that one may not defend ones self from people wearing body armor?

Getting these facts across to the general public is our real challenge.

In the mean time, remember to shoot for the head and groin! :43:

I agree on the first point, but I doubt that without using illegal materials you could load, say, .38 special to defeat commonly-used body armor.

Plus, there are a lot of different flavors of body armor. Ain't a handgun caliber out there that's going to defeat level IV... Maybe if you had a .50 BMG handgun with a 14" barrel... But there are some NIJ ratings that won't hold up to 9mm +p. So it's all kind of relative.

That said, the stuff that's available to civilians in 5.7mm hasn't a prayer of making it through most common body armor. Varmint ammo just isn't a good penetrator. I really doubt that this guy was using a 5.7 at all. IMO it's the antis spreading lies again.

yellowfin
11-08-2009, 12:24 PM
And the AK47 is basically a re-arranged Garand.... but that doesn't stop them trying to ban it. We need to do a better job of letting such mentally ill people as those who would attempt to ban any rifle of any configuration get into office at all.

Meplat
11-08-2009, 1:04 PM
Who said anything about not using "illegal materials", there are many commonly available "materials" that will work. It's all about shape, velocity, mass, sectional density, and hardness. I can load the .38 special cartridge to penetrate level IV, sans Chicken plate.




I agree on the first point, but I doubt that without using illegal materials you could load, say, .38 special to defeat commonly-used body armor.

Plus, there are a lot of different flavors of body armor. Ain't a handgun caliber out there that's going to defeat level IV... Maybe if you had a .50 BMG handgun with a 14" barrel... But there are some NIJ ratings that won't hold up to 9mm +p. So it's all kind of relative.

That said, the stuff that's available to civilians in 5.7mm hasn't a prayer of making it through most common body armor. Varmint ammo just isn't a good penetrator. I really doubt that this guy was using a 5.7 at all. IMO it's the antis spreading lies again.

BigDogatPlay
11-08-2009, 1:41 PM
For whatever it's worth, so what if the guy was using a 5.7? Couple of thoughts...

** The SS190 round is the one that will (usually) penetrate Kevlar body armor.

** Tests have shown the SS190 will penetrate 9 inches of gelatin after going through Kevlar only body armor and 11 inches without body armor.

** Tests have also shown that the energy transfer is similar to that of a 9 mm round.

** Hasan fired ~ 100 rounds during the course of his attack, the majority of these were most likely from the 5.7, and the leg pockets of his BDUs were "full of loaded magazines" according to the medic who treated both Hasan and the officer who shot him.

** Hasan was stopped by four hits from (most likely) a 9 mm firing FMJ ammo, as DA civilian police are issued Army weapons and Army ammo according to DA policy.

** Hasan's attack against wholly unarmed targets lasted for maybe 5 minutes. Does anyone think it not possible that a relatively competent shooter could not assemble as high a body count with a 9 mm under the same circumstances?

Bottom line for me is whatever the anti's say, and they will say plenty I am sure, the issue is not (and never is) the gun used in a crime. The issue is the criminal.

I wish Major Hasan a quick recovery, a fair and speedy trial and a steady hand when they put the needle in his arm.

6172crew
11-08-2009, 2:05 PM
For whatever it's worth, so what if the guy was using a 5.7? Couple of thoughts...

** The SS190 round is the one that will (usually) penetrate Kevlar body armor.

** Tests have shown the SS190 will penetrate 9 inches of gelatin after going through Kevlar only body armor and 11 inches without body armor.

** Tests have also shown that the energy transfer is similar to that of a 9 mm round.

** Hasan fired ~ 100 rounds during the course of his attack, the majority of these were most likely from the 5.7, and the leg pockets of his BDUs were "full of loaded magazines" according to the medic who treated both Hasan and the officer who shot him.

** Hasan was stopped by four hits from (most likely) a 9 mm firing FMJ ammo, as DA civilian police are issued Army weapons and Army ammo according to DA policy.

** Hasan's attack against wholly unarmed targets lasted for maybe 5 minutes. Does anyone think it not possible that a relatively competent shooter could not assemble as high a body count with a 9 mm under the same circumstances?

Bottom line for me is whatever the anti's say, and they will say plenty I am sure, the issue is not (and never is) the gun used in a crime. The issue is the criminal.

I wish Major Hasan a quick recovery, a fair and speedy trial and a steady hand when they put the needle in his arm.

I think the Feds have moved over to the 357sig (air marshals) and .40 and 10mm. If you look at what the VA cops are using it isnt the 9mm.

Everything else seems right, although Id like to point out that the SS190 wouldn't be needed because Im sure there were not too many vest being worn by those who were shot.

I have a Ps90 that I hacked the barrel off of and it would be the last round I would go to if I needed to defend myself. There is a guy on the net who sells a SS1190 type round but I have not seen too many out there for sale, it would be interesting to find out which round he was using.

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 2:23 PM
Saying ALLAHU AKBAR doesnt necessarily make someone a terrorist. My dad says it all the time. He's not a terrorist. He sells clothes and lives in a condo in Piedmont.

ALLAHU AKBAR, "God is great" is a pretty common expression with Muslims and Arabs. A Muslim might say it after completing something as mundane as a test at school or arriving safely at home after a daily commute.

i knew that, i was not implying that simply saying alluh akbar made you a terrorist, i meant saying it BEFORE YOU SHOOT PEOPLE, that makes you a damn terrorist. i know a few black muslims and they say that all the time doesnt bother me. if they were to say, "man i hate this country lets go blow something up alluh akbar" thats a different story.

dwa
11-08-2009, 3:45 PM
i knew that, i was not implying that simply saying alluh akbar made you a terrorist, i meant saying it BEFORE YOU SHOOT PEOPLE, that makes you a damn terrorist. i know a few black muslims and they say that all the time doesnt bother me. if they were to say, "man i hate this country lets go blow something up alluh akbar" thats a different story.

as much as i thought this day wouldn't come he is exactly right.

god is great is a perfectly harmless phrase unless you are using it for evil, you know this crazed ss.

GrayWolf09
11-08-2009, 4:22 PM
I think this guy was a terrorist, but a lone wolf, a jihad of one. That is dam hard to interdict before hand. Given the freedom of thought and expression Americans have. I think the risk is well worth it. It is a truism of freedom that you can pull off dam near anything if you can do it alone and you are willing to die in the process. That is OK by me, freedom is worth the risk.


Back to the original point of the thread. The antis label anything that has a potential to penetrate body armor as “cop killer”. There are several flaws in that logic. To start with I will bet a crisp new $100 dollar bill that I can load any commonly used center fire cartridge to penetrate body armor. Beyond that, cops are not the only ones that use body armor. Organized crime and drug cartels use it. Foreign military personnel (can you say legitimate militia need?) use it. So where does it say in the constitution or court precedent for that matter that one may not defend ones self from people wearing body armor?

Getting these facts across to the general public is our real challenge.

In the mean time, remember to shoot for the head and groin! :43:

:iagree:

I don't believe that there will be a call to ban a specific caliber or weapon. I think it is much more likely that there will be a call for a nationwide ban on hi-cap magazines considering the number of casualties. Do we know how many Hassan shot and how many were friendly fire casualties?

BigDogatPlay
11-08-2009, 5:36 PM
I think the Feds have moved over to the 357sig (air marshals) and .40 and 10mm. If you look at what the VA cops are using it isnt the 9mm.

My source was www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r190_56.pdf, which is the most current Army regulations governing their civilian police and contract security guards. The doc was up Friday, but now 404s as I might expect it to given the events at Ft. Hood.

Department of the Army civilian police (or any of the uniformed services civilian cops for that matter) are not necessarily subject to the same rules as the rest of the federal law enforcement. VA cops and air marshals are not part of DoD or the uniformed military services. The Department of the Army directives and policies governing assert clearly that Army issued weapons and Army issued ammo only shall be used.

Now while they could get different sidearms in different calibers, it makes the most sense that they be issued either M9s or .38 revolvers. The fixed sight Ruger revolver is still standardized, IIRC. Either way, they'd be shooting FMJ, ball ammo, because that is what the Army issues as per international conventions.

Everything else seems right, although Id like to point out that the SS190 wouldn't be needed because Im sure there were not too many vest being worn by those who were shot.

Other than the LEOs there would have been zero body armor. That wasn't really my point in that statement. The SS190 ammo is, supposedly, also controlled in that it's only supposed to be available to LEO and military.

M198
11-09-2009, 12:04 PM
I completely agreed.

Well I was taught in Marine Corps boot camp your priorities are God, Country, Corps. And didn't the 1st and 14th amendments of the very same constitution people are always quoting on here prohibit discrimination based on religion. Apparently some people have forgotten or just don't care amendments that don't involve firearms. Here is a pertinent refresher.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

.....No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.......

It's sad how easily some people forget these words on an old piece of paper.

doctor_vals
11-09-2009, 12:20 PM
And the AK47 is basically a re-arranged Garand.... but that doesn't stop them trying to ban it.

I don't know who would be more insulted by that statment, John Garand or Mikhail Kalashnikov?:D

The thing is, it's true...

Sorry,
it is kind of off topic
but
Garand -http://www.marstar.ca/images/M1Garand.gif

is SEMI-automatic rifle have different schema than FULL- automatic AK http://www.ak47rifles.net/images/ak47rifleschematics/AK47rifleexplodedview.gif

Meplat
11-09-2009, 6:43 PM
Ya, that statement was a real stretch. Gas operated simi-auto is about the extent of the similarity. But I just let it go, not worth the squabble.:D




Sorry,
it is kind of off topic
but
Garand -http://www.marstar.ca/images/M1Garand.gif

is SEMI-automatic rifle have different schema than FULL- automatic AK http://www.ak47rifles.net/images/ak47rifleschematics/AK47rifleexplodedview.gif

yellowfin
11-09-2009, 9:05 PM
Well I was taught in Marine Corps boot camp your priorities are God, Country, Corps. And didn't the 1st and 14th amendments of the very same constitution people are always quoting on here prohibit discrimination based on religion. Apparently some people have forgotten or just don't care amendments that don't involve firearms. Here is a pertinent refresher.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

.....No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.......

It's sad how easily some people forget these words on an old piece of paper.I agree entirely, except that when their exercise of religion involves killing people who have done nothing to deserve it, then it's time for whoever else is around at the time to exercise the 2nd Amendment and send them to the being that sent them. If they want to go get the 72 virgins they deserve a few fresh holes of their own, preferably .30 or .45 inches wide and 8 or 10 at a time.

IDPA4U
11-09-2009, 9:29 PM
Quote
"I don't believe that there will be a call to ban a specific caliber or weapon. I think it is much more likely that there will be a call for a nationwide ban on hi-cap magazines considering the number of casualties. Do we know how many Hassan shot and how many were friendly fire casualties?[/QUOTE]

I think you are exactly right. When they start quoting the number of rounds he had at the ready, or him explaining why he choose the weapon... we'll hear a strong push for magazine capacity limits. It wouldn't surprise me if they went for something "small" like a 20 round capacity limit on handgun mags. The logic being "who can argue that anyone would need more then 20 rounds in a pistol"...It would just be a symbolic victory to open the door for a big push after the next election...but hopefully it won't gain any traction.

ZRX61
11-11-2009, 6:20 PM
Where do you get that nonsense?:rolleyes:


Simple:
Usually when one engages the enemy they wear different uniforms etc. Fairly easy to tell who the BG is.

Now put the BG is the same uniform as everyone else & put 100 people in the building. BG opens fire. 100% of the people hear the gun fire. If only 20% of them draw they weapon we now have 20 people trying to work out who the BG. GG #1 sees who the BG is & shoots at him. GG's #2 thru #20 see GG #1 shoot a guy wearing the same uniform as them.... We now have 21 people shooting at people wearing the same uniform...
GG's #21 thru #100 see people wearing the same uniform shooting people wearing the same uniform...

Want me to continue?
what bed wetter put that idea in your head? using that logic if we took all the weapons away from the army in Afghanistan there would be 10 times less casualties, genius

We only supplied the taliban with rocket launchers etc back in the day.... not US Army uniforms ;)


Jesus, are you evening paying attention?

An ARMED cop showed up and shot this guy. She didn't show up and tase him, or throw a rock at him. She pulled out her firearm and shot the guy.

So more guns does not equate to more deaths. Maybe if someone inside the same room as the gunman had been armed they'd have been able to shoot him sooner and LESS people would have died.

I know, crazy how that works isn't it?

Apparently she wasn't wearing the same uniform.... & she wasn't faced with 100 people all stood there with guns, all dressed alike.... & like I said before, if just a few of the GG's had pulled their sidearms & started shooting.. which one would the cop have shot?

All it would take is one GG shooting the BG & when the 2nd GG arrives he see's 40+ dead & injured GG's & one (apparently bad) guy with a gun drawn.... BANG...

What if the first GG that shot the BG was a Pvt? How many others would think they just saw an Enlisted guy frag an Officer?
I've been in the military, the scope for a truly mindboggling clusterF in this scenario is almost endless.

dwa
11-11-2009, 6:59 PM
Simple:



We only supplied the taliban with rocket launchers etc back in the day.... not US Army uniforms ;)





.

you do realize that the "Taliban" was not in existence at the time aid was being provided to Afghanistan...and a stinger is not a rocket launcher it is a missile launcher but of course you knew that also.

ZRX61
11-11-2009, 7:06 PM
you do realize that the "Taliban" was not in existence at the time aid was being provided to Afghanistan...and a stinger is not a rocket launcher it is a missile launcher but of course you knew that also.


Of course I did, missiles are rocket powered... ;)

But the place WAS full of armed Afghanis.. & oddly enough, still is..

Pretty good businessmen. They ONLY respond to $$$$, any US military action will end the same way it did for the Brits 150 years ago & the Russians more recently.. but if you *hire* the Afghanis you've got them beat.

Meplat
11-11-2009, 9:50 PM
Uniforms don't mean squat. Obviously you have never been in the military. When every one is wearing the same clothes you quickly pick up on other things, like attitude and body language. This maggot would have been recognized and put down in the first few seconds after he started shooting.



Simple:
Usually when one engages the enemy they wear different uniforms etc. Fairly easy to tell who the BG is.

Now put the BG is the same uniform as everyone else & put 100 people in the building. BG opens fire. 100% of the people hear the gun fire. If only 20% of them draw they weapon we now have 20 people trying to work out who the BG. GG #1 sees who the BG is & shoots at him. GG's #2 thru #20 see GG #1 shoot a guy wearing the same uniform as them.... We now have 21 people shooting at people wearing the same uniform...
GG's #21 thru #100 see people wearing the same uniform shooting people wearing the same uniform...

Want me to continue?


We only supplied the taliban with rocket launchers etc back in the day.... not US Army uniforms ;)




Apparently she wasn't wearing the same uniform.... & she wasn't faced with 100 people all stood there with guns, all dressed alike.... & like I said before, if just a few of the GG's had pulled their sidearms & started shooting.. which one would the cop have shot?

All it would take is one GG shooting the BG & when the 2nd GG arrives he see's 40+ dead & injured GG's & one (apparently bad) guy with a gun drawn.... BANG...

What if the first GG that shot the BG was a Pvt? How many others would think they just saw an Enlisted guy frag an Officer?
I've been in the military, the scope for a truly mindboggling clusterF in this scenario is almost endless.

cadurand
11-12-2009, 7:35 AM
Apparently she wasn't wearing the same uniform....
I've been in the military, the scope for a truly mindboggling clusterF in this scenario is almost endless.So all our enemies will need to do is get their hands on similar looking uniforms as ours?

Once they do that, we're screwed. Is it really that simple in your world?

Of course I don't think it's that simple. I think people can tell who the BAD GUYS are and who the GOOD GUYS are. Sure, mistakes happen.. friendly fire exists.. but using your logic it would be as simple as getting your hands on some US uniforms and our troops would be so confused they'd just start shooting each other.

ZRX61
11-12-2009, 5:11 PM
Uniforms don't mean squat. Obviously you have never been in the military. When every one is wearing the same clothes you quickly pick up on other things, like attitude and body language. This maggot would have been recognized and put down in the first few seconds after he started shooting.

Apparently you failed to read my entire post. Check the last line...

You are free to believe that it may have panned out like you say at Ft Hood. I don't think it would have... At least not for the first couple of minutes... & you can shoot a LOT of people in two minutes.



So all our enemies will need to do is get their hands on similar looking uniforms as ours?

Once they do that, we're screwed. Is it really that simple in your world?

Of course I don't think it's that simple. I think people can tell who the BAD GUYS are and who the GOOD GUYS are. Sure, mistakes happen.. friendly fire exists.. but using your logic it would be as simple as getting your hands on some US uniforms and our troops would be so confused they'd just start shooting each other.

You mean just like the Germans did in WWII when they wore US Army uniforms? & in case you missed it: We just had 13 people killed & a bunch more injured by ONE person wearing a US uniform... So yes, US troops do shoot each other.

Edit:
There was also a case a couple of years ago where some guy rolled grenades into the tents of guys who wore the same uniform. Can't remember right now if that was a US or UK nutjob tho

dwa
11-12-2009, 5:46 PM
Apparently you failed to read my entire post. Check the last line...

You are free to believe that it may have panned out like you say at Ft Hood. I don't think it would have... At least not for the first couple of minutes... & you can shoot a LOT of people in two minutes.





You mean just like the Germans did in WWII when they wore US Army uniforms? & in case you missed it: We just had 13 people killed & a bunch more injured by ONE person wearing a US uniform... So yes, US troops do shoot each other.

Edit:
There was also a case a couple of years ago where some guy rolled grenades into the tents of guys who wore the same uniform. Can't remember right now if that was a US or UK nutjob tho

its fun watching you pull that cucumber of an explation out of your ***.

ZRX61
11-12-2009, 5:50 PM
its fun watching you pull that cucumber of an explation out of your ***.

Ah yes, I should have realised the US military is COMPLETELY incapable of making ANY mistakes. Please ignore previous posts.



This would be the same exact US military that fought WWII right? & we all know what the freindly fire causalties were for that event...

ok, maybe we *all* don't, but some people do. (about 18%, or 78,000)


I apologise unreservedly for daring to having a difference of opinion. Forgive me for thinking that maybe some of us were allowed to suffer free thought & we will now return to your regularly scheduled Stepford lives..




Must admit to getting a kick out of Meplat dissing a Vet on Veterans day, way to go there sparky ;)

dwa
11-12-2009, 6:07 PM
Ah yes, I should have realised the US military is COMPLETELY incapable of making ANY mistakes. Please ignore previous posts.
it wouldn't be hard they don't make any sense


This would be the same exact US military that fought WWII right? & we all know what the freindly fire causalties were for that event...
i fail to see the relevance of that, but do continue to whine and cry
ok, maybe we *all* don't, but some people do. (about 18%, or 78,000)


I apologise unreservedly for daring to having a difference of opinion. Forgive me for thinking that maybe some of us were allowed to suffer free thought & we will now return to your regularly scheduled Stepford lives..

so your mad because someone had an opinion differning with yours?


Must admit to getting a kick out of Meplat dissing a Vet on Veterans day, way to go there sparky ;)

all your doing is ranting without a concise point. i dont even know what to respond to, but it is fun to watch:thumbsup::thumbsup:

you can disagree with whatever it is your trying to say all you want just don't cry when someone says you dont make any sense.

ZRX61
11-12-2009, 6:23 PM
all your doing is ranting without a concise point. i dont even know what to respond to, but it is fun to watch:thumbsup::thumbsup:

you can disagree with whatever it is your trying to say all you want just don't cry when someone says you dont make any sense.


Actually I'm sat here laughing my butt off at how people dare not consider ANY other opinion other than their own. It's hilarious. :)