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BigBamBoo
11-06-2009, 9:31 AM
............

spyderco monkey
11-06-2009, 9:38 AM
The nuts come in clusters....

kf6tac
11-06-2009, 9:40 AM
Stuff like this makes me seriously contemplate getting a compact/sub-compact handgun for my desk drawer at work.

Untamed1972
11-06-2009, 9:49 AM
at what point though will this make people start to realize that the COPs can't be everywhere at once and that if the SHTF you need to be able to take care of yourself right then and there.

The "dial 911" thing has been grilled into our culture so much that when the SHTF that's all people can think of to do. The survival instict is being bred out of our culture.

I'd bet some guy would think twice about going postal at work if he new a few of his coworkers CCW.

kf6tac
11-06-2009, 9:54 AM
I'd bet some guy would think twice about going postal at work if he new a few of his coworkers CCW.

Depends on whether he intends to survive. Most guys who plan to go postal probably don't plan to come out alive anyway.

oldrifle
11-06-2009, 9:58 AM
I don't think I'd want to work in an office building without access to a handgun these days. This country seems to be going off its rocker lately.

Stuff like this makes me seriously contemplate getting a compact/sub-compact handgun for my desk drawer at work.

sd_shooter
11-06-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't think I'd want to work in an office building without access to a handgun these days. This country seems to be going off its rocker lately.

At my company there is a policy against firearms @ work, ie. I could get fired if they find it. I'll probably live with the hope that nothing will happen at my work place...

professionalcoyotehunter
11-06-2009, 10:33 AM
Unfortunately when the economy falls so do peoples hopes of survival and the comes depression which does not excuse this behavior but it explains it.

Tomwadek
11-06-2009, 10:43 AM
You know what most people don't realize? If someone called the police, when the officers arrive they dont just storm in and save the day... they set up a perimeter and wait for swat... sometime swat doesn't storm in and quickly save the day either... they wait and plan it out... By that time the shots have stoped and ppl are dead/injured... THEN the police goes in. Now granted some officers are really brave and would go in there and then... but most of the time the above is prob whats gonna happen... A friend of mine believes when he calls the cops in that situation they're going to save the day like in the moves... storming in with m16 and full force in a matter of minutes.. Ppl need to have guns because no one is responsible for your life but You

bodger
11-06-2009, 10:48 AM
I don't think I'd want to work in an office building without access to a handgun these days. This country seems to be going off its rocker lately.


I don't want to be anywhere these days without access to a handgun.
And two full magazines.

MasterYong
11-06-2009, 10:49 AM
This is why I got permission to have a handgun in my desk at work. When I leave the office the desk key comes with me. We've had a few employees threaten, stalk, etc their managers after they were terminated (for misconduct, go figure they're mad for something THEY did) so it was an easy sell to my boss. "here, check out this target, I'm a decent shot, let me keep this gun in the office to protect myself and others..." "hmmmm... OK. I trust you."

Untamed1972
11-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Depends on whether he intends to survive. Most guys who plan to go postal probably don't plan to come out alive anyway.


appearantly this guy didn't, cuz according to foxnews he is at large and considered armed and dangerous.

RandyD
11-06-2009, 11:32 AM
You know what most people don't realize? If someone called the police, when the officers arrive they dont just storm in and save the day... they set up a perimeter and wait for swat... sometime swat doesn't storm in and quickly save the day either... they wait and plan it out... By that time the shots have stoped and ppl are dead/injured... THEN the police goes in. Now granted some officers are really brave and would go in there and then... but most of the time the above is prob whats gonna happen... A friend of mine believes when he calls the cops in that situation they're going to save the day like in the moves... storming in with m16 and full force in a matter of minutes.. Ppl need to have guns because no one is responsible for your life but You

Your observations are correct. As a former LEO, the training I received was consistent with what you have observed. We were are trained to secure the scene, and we were strongly encouraged to not act as individuals in resolving deadly force scenarios. We were routinely told that our primary job was to go home at the end of the shift. All of this leads to the reasonable conclusion that you are the primary person responsible for your safety. Additionally, case law has held the police have a duty to provide safety to the general public; the police do not owe a duty of safety to individuals. I am just paraphrasing the case law, but that is my recollection.

unusedusername
11-06-2009, 1:59 PM
This is why I got permission to have a handgun in my desk at work. When I leave the office the desk key comes with me. We've had a few employees threaten, stalk, etc their managers after they were terminated (for misconduct, go figure they're mad for something THEY did) so it was an easy sell to my boss. "here, check out this target, I'm a decent shot, let me keep this gun in the office to protect myself and others..." "hmmmm... OK. I trust you."

You must work in the most awesome office building in the state then...

Try that in a big corporation :( Asking about it is probably a firing offense where I work...

bohoki
11-06-2009, 2:03 PM
logic would dictate that if there is a 500 million pack of matches out there on the streets already you would try to get people to buy fire extinguishers instead of trying to ban matches

Barney Gumble
11-06-2009, 2:25 PM
Your observations are correct. As a former LEO, the training I received was consistent with what you have observed. We were are trained to secure the scene, and we were strongly encouraged to not act as individuals in resolving deadly force scenarios. We were routinely told that our primary job was to go home at the end of the shift. All of this leads to the reasonable conclusion that you are the primary person responsible for your safety. Additionally, case law has held the police have a duty to provide safety to the general public; the police do not owe a duty of safety to individuals. I am just paraphrasing the case law, but that is my recollection.

I'm not LEO but what I understand from people who are is that the training has been changing a lot since VA Tech. More LEOs are being trained to engage "active shooters" immediately and directly on an individual or small team basis. This is exactly what the woman officer at Fort Hood did and she had received exactly this type of training.

I suspect the previous type of training was a legacy of the days when gunmen would hole up in a location, take hostages and try to negotiate.

SkyStorm82
11-06-2009, 2:48 PM
I'm not LEO but what I understand from people who are is that the training has been changing a lot since VA Tech. More LEOs are being trained to engage "active shooters" immediately and directly on an individual or small team basis. This is exactly what the woman officer at Fort Hood did and she had received exactly this type of training.

I suspect the previous type of training was a legacy of the days when gunmen would hole up in a location, take hostages and try to negotiate.

Yup. It all started with Columbine. Active shooters are handled differently for a lot more departments now.

HowardW56
11-06-2009, 3:35 PM
Stuff like this makes me seriously contemplate getting a compact/sub-compact handgun for my desk drawer at work.


If it's in a desk drawer go full size... 1911 in my desk....

MikeR
11-06-2009, 3:45 PM
Its going to get worse! :(

bodger
11-06-2009, 4:01 PM
Every time one of these nuts decides to go on a rampage, the antis are all over with "we told you so" cries for more gun control.

I always feel sorry for the families of the dead and wounded, and relieved when no EBR's or handguns are involved. But it's usually one or the other.

Or a Remington 870 with a pistol grip that the numb-nuts media then calls "cop killer" shotgun or some such crap.

dantodd
11-06-2009, 8:56 PM
You must work in the most awesome office building in the state then...

Try that in a big corporation :( Asking about it is probably a firing offense where I work...

When the last company I worked for got big enough to hire HR people and write a custom employee manual rather than the cut and paste version we had an HR orientation.

During the orientation the HR guy talked about all the restrictions, expectations etc. He talked about the sexual harassment policy and so on. He got to the bit about firearms and said no guns are allowed in the building or on company property and then laughed saying something to the effect of "not that anyone would do that anyway." Being the same stirrer of the pot in real life that I am here I piped up. Uh... I have a handgun in my car in the parking lot pretty often because I go to the range after work. Is that a problem? Poor guy about dumped a load in his pants right there. Apparently he has never even seen a gun outside of a cops holster. Once the color returned to his face and he realized I wasn't merely being a smartass he said. "Well, I guess as long as you never take it out of the car while you're here there's nothing wrong with that." Good enough for me. I just said, "Thanks Fred, all I needed to know."

RRangel
11-06-2009, 9:27 PM
And another @zz clown did this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_orlando_office_shooting

The only reason this is news is because of Ft. Hood. It's pretty despicable that the media capitalizes on this to boost ratings. There are hundreds of people murdered every year in big cities like Los Angeles without the media blinking. These cities are also run by the very same gun ban extremists who espouse victim disarmament.

RandyD
11-07-2009, 10:36 AM
I'm not LEO but what I understand from people who are is that the training has been changing a lot since VA Tech. More LEOs are being trained to engage "active shooters" immediately and directly on an individual or small team basis. This is exactly what the woman officer at Fort Hood did and she had received exactly this type of training.

I suspect the previous type of training was a legacy of the days when gunmen would hole up in a location, take hostages and try to negotiate.

I hope that is the case, and I should state that LEO training was over 20 years ago, so it most likely has changed since then.

locosway
11-08-2009, 7:00 AM
At my company there is a policy against firearms @ work, ie. I could get fired if they find it. I'll probably live with the hope that nothing will happen at my work place...

It really depends... One of the last places I worked there was a real need to have a firearm at work, but everyone was super liberal so it would never fly. If I worked there now I'd CC without their permission. Being there 8 hours of the day and with the people who'd stroll in was a no go for safety.

Mayhem
11-08-2009, 10:50 AM
All nuts Crack under pressure Walnuts Peanuts Almonds wackjobs etc.
Most Mass shootings are a direct result of some sort of change in social and/or economic pressure usually an increase. They normally are not a result of changes to gun control. However due to the media over sensationalization the masses get the impression they are happening everywhere all the time when in fact they have very little to no impact on the overall annual murder and violent crime rates. the Virginia Tech massacre happened in year when the murder rate and violent crime rates where at a 50 year low.

You have a better chance of winning the lottery then you do of being a victim of one of these mass spree killings. That being said people do win the lottery.

cr250chevy
11-08-2009, 11:27 AM
The "dial 911" thing has been grilled into our culture so much that when the SHTF that's all people can think of to do. The survival instict is being bred out of our culture.

Couldn't have been stated better...

yellowfin
11-08-2009, 11:29 AM
The "dial 911" thing has been grilled into our culture so much that when the SHTF that's all people can think of to do. The survival instict is being bred out of our culture.Depending on where you live. Most of America isn't a bunch of city sheep, though it is disturbing that the hordes of the castrated culture hold a high % of the overall population. Such needs to be reversed.

Meplat
11-08-2009, 12:38 PM
I carry anyway.

At my company there is a policy against firearms @ work, ie. I could get fired if they find it. I'll probably live with the hope that nothing will happen at my work place...

Meplat
11-08-2009, 12:41 PM
Small company, right?

This is why I got permission to have a handgun in my desk at work. When I leave the office the desk key comes with me. We've had a few employees threaten, stalk, etc their managers after they were terminated (for misconduct, go figure they're mad for something THEY did) so it was an easy sell to my boss. "here, check out this target, I'm a decent shot, let me keep this gun in the office to protect myself and others..." "hmmmm... OK. I trust you."

BigDogatPlay
11-08-2009, 12:47 PM
Yup. It all started with Columbine. Active shooters are handled differently for a lot more departments now.

+1.

Doctrine around responding to active shooter situations has morphed greatly, even more since I left the job a couple of years ago. And, interestingly enough, you saw that in action at Ft. Hood. The officers who took the shooter on were trained in current doctrine, according to some of the more detailed press reports, and applied those techniques. They were on him quickly and pressed the issue with him as soon as they had visual contact.

SkatinJJ
11-08-2009, 1:18 PM
It would be a lot safer for all of you if you work within a 1000 feet of a school zone.

Those are gun-free zones. I know I feel a lot safer driving by a school.

SkatinJJ
11-08-2009, 1:23 PM
+1.

Doctrine around responding to active shooter situations has morphed greatly, even more since I left the job a couple of years ago. And, interestingly enough, you saw that in action at Ft. Hood. The officers who took the shooter on were trained in current doctrine, according to some of the more detailed press reports, and applied those techniques. They were on him quickly and pressed the issue with him as soon as they had visual contact.

Ok, not trying to be cynical this time.

Actively pressing shooters in these situations will continue only as long as no civilian gets hurt by law enforcement or even has their feelings hurt. In that case, the civilian will sue and win. LE will fall back on the old standard of surround, protect the greater good, wait out the shooting and not be sued EVER, owing to qualified immunity.

This will come down from the risk-averse management, while competent, brave men and women will champ at the bit to get in there and end the situation quickly and safely.

I do support the LEO on the street.

Semper FI!!!

JJ

RedStripes
11-08-2009, 1:24 PM
CCW could save lives during shootings. Why do these idiots not understand this?

SkatinJJ
11-08-2009, 1:30 PM
CCW could save lives during shootings. Why do these idiots not understand this?

Somehow, risk aversion is so great in corporations, that they would rather have your surviving family sue them for the no-gun policy, than to have a policy that could potentially be exploited by an employee to be allowed to have a gun there, and shoot the place up.

They don't trust themselves, nor do they trust you.

I think of the shot up law offices in San Francisco that started LCAV. They probably still do not have metal detectors at their doors.

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 1:33 PM
Serously the only way to stop mass killings is for EVERYONE to be armed, even the cute little 22 year blondie secretary.

This is F-ing ridiculous. If i ever get caught in a mass shooting and survive, i am gonna sue the state of CA for threatening my life and not allowing me to carry a concealed weapon.

SkatinJJ
11-08-2009, 1:37 PM
Serously the only way to stop mass killings is for EVERYONE to be armed, even the cute little 22 year blondie secretary.

This is F-ing ridiculous. If i ever get caught in a mass shooting and survive, i am gonna sue the state of CA for threatening my life and not allowing me to carry a concealed weapon.

I thoroughly agree.

I want every member of the Brady campaign, LCAV, the congress, even former presidents...everyone who has ever been part of gun-control legislation, to stand trial as accomplices to every crime committed against unarmed people.

LesGrossman41510
11-08-2009, 1:38 PM
What we really need is for mr hemke to get his house broken into by armed thugs with knives (not guns) and have him cower in the closet and realize how much he wished he had a 1911.

SkatinJJ
11-08-2009, 2:06 PM
Like most antis, he probably has a gun collection to rivals ours.

Barney Gumble
11-08-2009, 3:14 PM
Ok, not trying to be cynical this time.

Actively pressing shooters in these situations will continue only as long as no civilian gets hurt by law enforcement or even has their feelings hurt. In that case, the civilian will sue and win. LE will fall back on the old standard of surround, protect the greater good, wait out the shooting and not be sued EVER, owing to qualified immunity.

This will come down from the risk-averse management, while competent, brave men and women will champ at the bit to get in there and end the situation quickly and safely.

I do support the LEO on the street.

Semper FI!!!

JJ

Your scenario of tactics reverting to old-school is unlikely because these shooters are not interested in anything other than killing as many people as possible. It's clear from Columbine, VA Tech, and certainly Ft. Hood that sitting back and waiting will produce a massive slaughter. Usually these whackjobs commit suicide as soon as they're challenged so I don't see anyone making headway with the argument that it's better to sit back and wait.