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View Full Version : How many California dealers with high-cap permit are selling "rebuild kits"?


shark92651
11-03-2009, 3:07 PM
I have customers all the time asking me if we will sell them PMag "rebuild kits", but so far we have resisted. My resistance is based on two factors:

1) we sell converted 10/20 and 10/30 PMags so selling rebuild kits will eat into those sales, on the other hand it is a LOT less work to merely disassemble a mag than to properly block it and make it "permanent".

2) we are concerned that many people buying rebuild kits are really doing so to reassemble them into illegal high-caps or at least to have them available to reassemble for a "SHTF" situation.

I know that there is a DOJ letter that basically spells out that it is legal to import all the individual parts of a magazine for purposes of rebuilding a lawfully owned, pre-ban high cap mag. I also don't want to be in a situation where someone assembles their rebuild kit into an illegal high-cap, gets popped for it, and then points the finger at RifleGear.com for selling it to them. Perhaps this is unwarranted paranoia, afterall we sell AR-15's with Bullet Buttons that can be reversed. What do the other California dealers think about this?

CHS
11-03-2009, 6:18 PM
Also, the permit that allows an FFL to import/manufacture/sell/etc Large Capacity magazines is only good for a year and must be renewed every year.

It's also issued at the full discretion of the DoJ. I think what many people don't realize is that if the DoJ doesn't like the fact that someone's selling "rebuild kits", they can simply not renew an FFL's permit for the next year.

freakshow10mm
11-03-2009, 6:43 PM
I have over 50 California FFLs on file and the ones that have AWPs don't sell rebuild kits at all and will confiscate standard capacity mags during transfer.

My opinion (the little that it's worth):

Keep doing what you do. If people want kits they can buy them elsewhere. If they buy guns elsewhere to use you as the transfer agent, they have no problem shopping elsewhere for a $20 magazine. I think you get that like a lot of other recommended dealers on my bandwagon.

The fact that you have an exclusive permit issued with great discretion is grounds to be conservative in your exploitation of such. There are places to push the envelope in firearms sales/rights and I think the rebuild kits aren't one of them for a HCP.

The HCP can also be used as leverage. If the DOJ wants to be an asshat with certain style weapons in stock, even though legal, they can pull/not renew a HCP at whim.

OCArmory
11-03-2009, 6:55 PM
I don't sell rebuild kits. I am worried about the discretionary part of my high capacity magazine permit. It makes things a lot easier. I would much rather sell them though than 10/30's. Between the labor, materials, and the time they are almost not worth it.

tenpercentfirearms
11-03-2009, 10:41 PM
It's up to you. Technically, you can lawfully sell large capacity magazines as purchase is not prohibited and as a person licensed pursuant to section 12071, you are exempt from the selling penalty. So if you ever do get popped, keep your mouth shut and the lawyers can argue you didn't sell him a rebuild kit and he did not illegally manufacture a large capacity magazine, you sold him a complete large capacity magazine as is allowed by law. :43:

I look at it this way. I have already done enough for the gun owners of California. If I don't offer rebuild kits, I have already done enough and they can get them elsewhere.

How much business do you really think you are losing not selling them? Probably not much.

PIRATE14
11-04-2009, 7:16 AM
It's up to you. Technically, you can lawfully sell large capacity magazines as purchase is not prohibited and as a person licensed pursuant to section 12071, you are exempt from the selling penalty. So if you ever do get popped, keep your mouth shut and the lawyers can argue you didn't sell him a rebuild kit and he did not illegally manufacture a large capacity magazine, you sold him a complete large capacity magazine as is allowed by law. :43:

I look at it this way. I have already done enough for the gun owners of California. If I don't offer rebuild kits, I have already done enough and they can get them elsewhere.

How much business do you really think you are losing not selling them? Probably not much.

I'll roll along with this......;)

Ron-Solo
11-04-2009, 9:09 AM
As a peace officer who can legally buy Hicap magazines, I have found that magazines rarely, if ever need to be "rebuilt" if cared for properly. i have mags that are 25+ years old and function flawlessly.

There is too much grey area in this subject to risk your hicap permit in my opinion.

There's not much doubt the majority are not being used to "rebuild" pre-ban magazines and the DOJ and legislature will figure it out eventually and make what they feel are necessary 'adjustments' to the whole process. A business that is legitimately purchasing completed mags and then selling them as disassembled kits will get noticed. Not the place you want to be with the alphabet enforcement types.

When I buy hicaps, my dealer makes a copy of my department ID EVERY time he sells me one, even though he knows me and often times I'm in uniform. I think the law is stupid, but that's the rules they give us, so I follow it. I don't even let my adult son borrow my guns that I only have hicaps for unless I'm with him. Don't need that headache.

Don't feel bad if you don't sell 'rebuild' kits. My father was an FFL so I understand the hoops you must jump thru all the time to keep properly licensed. It's easy for people to complain, because it's not their business and income that could be in trouble.

Thanks for all the services you do provide. I've bought from 10%, Riflegear, CWS and OC Armory, and will continue to do so. Your customer service is what will keep us coming back.

Aloha,

Ron

Capt. Speirs
11-04-2009, 9:30 AM
I have my Hi-Cap permit for sales to out of state, Law Enforcement Officers, Military Personnel and 10 round conversions. No rebuild kits will be offered by me. I too don't believe in complete rebuild kits, replacing a spring and follower or Mag body, not the whole Mag. I got this permit to make money not exploit it, sooner or later it will catch up to you. BTW, we are 90% there in getting our store front.

hotwls13
11-04-2009, 10:13 AM
I know that there is a DOJ letter that basically spells out that it is legal to import all the individual parts of a magazine for purposes of rebuilding a lawfully owned, pre-ban high cap mag.

Just curious, is there a link to this DOJ letter somewhere??

Also, do you feel customers who purchase complete rebuild kits/ kits to be converted to 10/30's from out of state are breaking the law?? I'm talking about those who ACTUALLY get the kit and ONLY assemble them into "Permanent" 10/30's?

freakshow10mm
11-04-2009, 10:31 AM
I think a lot of the kits that are imported are being assembled and being called pre ban mags.

Shane916
11-04-2009, 10:47 AM
Just curious, is there a link to this DOJ letter somewhere??

Also, do you feel customers who purchase complete rebuild kits/ kits to be converted to 10/30's from out of state are breaking the law?? I'm talking about those who ACTUALLY get the kit and ONLY assemble them into "Permanent" 10/30's?

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

CHS
11-04-2009, 11:12 AM
I'm talking about those who ACTUALLY get the kit and ONLY assemble them into "Permanent" 10/30's?

As long as they are permanent, it SHOULD be fine.

However, I do worry that during the time between you adding the block and "fixing" it, you're in possession of an illegally manufactured hi-cap mag, and the statute of limitations for manufacturing a hi-cap is 3 years.

There is no provision in the law for a consumer to make a lo-cap from a hi-cap mag.

halifax
11-04-2009, 11:32 AM
Have any of you been asked about your large capacity magazines records?

My first inspector asked for mine. I hadn't done any transactions involving hi caps but the request for my records caught me off guard.

hotwls13
11-04-2009, 3:24 PM
As long as they are permanent, it SHOULD be fine.

However, I do worry that during the time between you adding the block and "fixing" it, you're in possession of an illegally manufactured hi-cap mag, and the statute of limitations for manufacturing a hi-cap is 3 years.

There is no provision in the law for a consumer to make a lo-cap from a hi-cap mag.

The way I have seen them assembled as 10/30's at no time is the mag completely assembled before the "plug" is "permanent".

Thanks for the link Shane916

Super Spy
11-04-2009, 3:39 PM
I think you are wise to not risk your high cap permit for a few bucks.

If someone did something stupid and got caught they would likely try and pass the blame....to you.

Ron-Solo
11-04-2009, 10:03 PM
One of the first things people do when they get into trouble is to try and work a deal giving the investigator the "bigger fish" to fry. I've used it many times for narco related stuff, why wouldn't DOJ use it too.

Don't be the bigger fish.

SDProtection
11-05-2009, 5:37 AM
Have any of you been asked about your large capacity magazines records?

My first inspector asked for mine. I hadn't done any transactions involving hi caps but the request for my records caught me off guard.

I just got my Hi-Cap permit and was wondering that very thing. I haven't seen anything that spells out exactly "what" records we have to keep on them. I haven't sold any yet as I am still trying to figure out what I am going to be asked to produce as record keeping documents. Do I need an A&D book for Hi-Caps now? Add to it a book for Ammo (coming soon) and I am going to own a library not a gun store!

tenpercentfirearms
11-05-2009, 5:55 AM
I just got my Hi-Cap permit and was wondering that very thing. I haven't seen anything that spells out exactly "what" records we have to keep on them. I haven't sold any yet as I am still trying to figure out what I am going to be asked to produce as record keeping documents. Do I need an A&D book for Hi-Caps now? Add to it a book for Ammo (coming soon) and I am going to own a library not a gun store!

CCR 5483 says, Permittees shall maintain acquisition and disposition transaction records of the importation and exportation of large capacity magazines. Records shall include transaction date, transaction volume; and the name, address, and Federal Firearms License number (if any) of the out of state transferee or transferor. Records must be maintained at the dealership for three years and be made available to representatives of the Department of Justice or any other law enforcement agency upon request.

Now if we want to get technical, it says you are only to maintain records of importation and exportation. Sales and purchases do not appear to require acquisition and disposition records. Additionally, you only have to maintain those records for three years. To back up what I am saying, also remember that PC 12020(a)(21) states (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following: (21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.As a CFD holder, you can legally sell and buy large capacity magazines without a large capacity magazine permit. The only reason you need a permit is to import or sell magazines. (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following: (26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.

halifax
11-05-2009, 11:23 AM
CCR 5483 says,

Now if we want to get technical, it says you are only to maintain records of importation and exportation. Sales and purchases do not appear to require acquisition and disposition records. Additionally, you only have to maintain those records for three years. To back up what I am saying, also remember that PC 12020(a)(21) states As a CFD holder, you can legally sell and buy large capacity magazines without a large capacity magazine permit. The only reason you need a permit is to import or sell magazines.

So, the only Large Capacity magazines I have imported have been with firearms that I ordered for LEOs. I just noted it in my A/D book. That should satisfiy the recorded keeping requirement, correct?

tenpercentfirearms
11-06-2009, 5:25 AM
So, the only Large Capacity magazines I have imported have been with firearms that I ordered for LEOs. I just noted it in my A/D book. That should satisfiy the recorded keeping requirement, correct?

As long as you noted the transaction volume.

OCArmory
11-06-2009, 8:09 AM
I just created a thing on excel. I try to keep all my state and federal logs, books, and forms separate. My form basically list type of mag, acquired from and how they were sent out. i have a block to 10 rounds column or a space for a name and id number. My auditor seemed to like it.

shark92651
11-07-2009, 6:24 AM
Thanks for all the input guys, I guess I don't see any reason to do anything different than we are doing now.