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View Full Version : Poor ejection from my vz-58? **VID/PHOTOS ADDED**


Booshanky
11-03-2009, 2:23 PM
Hi fellas,

Took the VZ to the range yesterday just to put 30 rounds through it and make sure everything was good before I break it all apart again and blast/park it. 25 rounds were great, but 5 of them were stovepipes.

The ejection seems really weak on it. My AR will throw brass about 10-15 feet to the right, but this one throws them only a few inches out of the way, and occasionally straight up and even to the left a bit.

Anyone know what might cause that sort of issue with this gun? It wasn't SUPER lubed up or anything, but I did spray the innards with a bit of CLP and cycled the action quite a bit before shooting so I don't think the BCG is binding on anything. The extractor isn't loose or anything. I didn't really get a good look at how far back the bolt carrier moves so I can't really comment on that.

Any ideas?

sd1023x
11-03-2009, 2:41 PM
Did you get it from turners? Should check the mag is seated correctly.

If its weak ejection, something is binding up on the back travel of the bolt. Can you hand cycle it pretty easily?

Booshanky
11-03-2009, 2:58 PM
Did you get it from turners? Should check the mag is seated correctly.

If its weak ejection, something is binding up on the back travel of the bolt. Can you hand cycle it pretty easily?

Nah, built it.

The mag seems good. It's pinned in place and is really firmly in there.

The back travel of the bolt issue sounds plausible though. I notice that when I pull the bolt back it travels pretty easily up to a certain point. I thought that's just how these things were though.

I'll see if I can get a video up of me cycling it by hand and maybe you can tell me if it's normal.

69Mach1
11-03-2009, 3:03 PM
Tagged for later

sd1023x
11-03-2009, 3:44 PM
Asked about turners, cuz think theirs come already pinned and maybe they did something wrong.

Have you had it headspaced after assembly?

Booshanky
11-03-2009, 4:19 PM
Asked about turners, cuz think theirs come already pinned and maybe they did something wrong.

Have you had it headspaced after assembly?

Yup. Headspaced and it fires well aside from the poor ejection. I can't seem to find my camera that does video around here. I'll try and find it tomorrow.

sd1023x
11-03-2009, 4:20 PM
Yup. Headspaced and it fires well aside from the poor ejection. I can't seem to find my camera that does video around here. I'll try and find it tomorrow.

Interesting......

Post that vid and write a description....theoretically, the only resistance should be the recoil spring and the reset of the trigger. Possibly the bolt is not unlocking smoothly? Any weird wear on bolt?

Was this kit a used kit? Can you take a top photo looking down into your reciever?

Booshanky
11-03-2009, 4:40 PM
Can I take a photo? PSHAW.

SPUTTER
11-03-2009, 5:15 PM
Are you saying that when you pull back the bolt carrier its fairly easy to a point? Mine has a fair amount of resistance all the way through. In fact, much more compared to any other rifle I own. Also mine won't exactly eject the shells very far, maybe 3-4 feet straight up and forward. If the extractor and bolt look fine and aren't hanging up, then I would look at maybe the piston/spring or possibly not enough gas pressure (leakage) to properly drive the piston?

Booshanky
11-04-2009, 6:31 PM
Alright guys, got the video finally after I found the battery to my little point n shoot.

YdLAGLAO9IA

And here are photos of the action.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI122tnjOI/AAAAAAABExQ/-k4gCoqsGxg/s800/IMG_0178.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI13ZoB94I/AAAAAAABExc/qZ2WHwesNXo/s800/IMG_0180.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI1314qaHI/AAAAAAABExk/xaI7mTzYguY/s800/IMG_0181.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI14VZm6UI/AAAAAAABExs/hhIb2Xw9rXs/s800/IMG_0183.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI14VZm6UI/AAAAAAABExs/hhIb2Xw9rXs/s800/IMG_0183.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI15XY1ycI/AAAAAAABEx8/aGSAOkzyfWs/s800/IMG_0184.JPG

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 7:00 PM
How many rounds you got through this rifle?
In your second pic down it looks like theres a bit of peening on the right side rail. That might be your hang up spot.
I know some of my stuff just needs to be shot more to get smoothed out.
If it's still happening after 500 rounds i'd be worried.

From the wear it looks like the bolt is riding pretty hard on the mag follower. Was this a new kit?

PolishMike
11-04-2009, 7:06 PM
How is the mag pinned? Can you make it featureless and take of the mag to test if its binding on the mag? If you did that at the range and shot it single shot you could see the difference in ejection with no mag.

The resistance you showed in the video is fairly typical. I would not be worried too much about that.

Booshanky
11-04-2009, 7:08 PM
How many rounds you got through this rifle?
In your second pic down it looks like theres a bit of peening on the right side rail. That might be your hang up spot.
I know some of my stuff just needs to be shot more to get smoothed out.
If it's still happening after 500 rounds i'd be worried.

From the wear it looks like the bolt is riding pretty hard on the mag follower. Was this a new kit?

Only 30 rounds. I took it to the range monday to put those through it.

This was a kit that I put together with harmoniums. The receiver is new, but the rest of the parts are all milsurp.

Basically I just wanted to make sure that everything was firing right before I parkerize it. Think I'll be able to parkerize it like this and then troubleshoot it without any issues afterward?

Booshanky
11-04-2009, 7:10 PM
How is the mag pinned? Can you make it featureless and take of the mag to test if its binding on the mag? If you did that at the range and shot it single shot you could see the difference in ejection with no mag.

The resistance you showed in the video is fairly typical. I would not be worried too much about that.

There is a screw behind the mag release that makes it non-functional. The magazine is a 30 rounder that I've pinned to 10 rounds and only has a 10 round spring in it so I've got a block of wood in it to take up slack. The mag seems to work well.

tonelar
11-04-2009, 7:13 PM
so, when you go to chamber a round, you can't pull the bolt to the rear and just release it?

I just tried a dry fit of my receiver and bolt... it is a reasonably heavy pull (without a mag in place I can't verify 100%), but you shouldn't have anything that stops your bolt from charging home at any time.

Is your ejector riveted on?

sd1023x
11-04-2009, 7:19 PM
There is a screw behind the mag release that makes it non-functional. The magazine is a 30 rounder that I've pinned to 10 rounds and only has a 10 round spring in it so I've got a block of wood in it to take up slack. The mag seems to work well.

Maybe the block of wood is too big and putting too much pressure on bolt on travel. You should maybe try a dedicated 10 rounder to check your mag.

PolishMike
11-04-2009, 7:20 PM
There is a screw behind the mag release that makes it non-functional. The magazine is a 30 rounder that I've pinned to 10 rounds and only has a 10 round spring in it so I've got a block of wood in it to take up slack. The mag seems to work well.

I'm not particularly worried about the magazine itself. I'm more looking to see if its aligned correctly and if the bolt carrier is snagging on the magazine or something else like the FCG or rail.

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 7:32 PM
I'm not particularly worried about the magazine itself. I'm more looking to see if its aligned correctly and if the bolt carrier is snagging on the magazine or something else like the FCG or rail.

Mike look close at the underside of the bolt and the mag follower. It looks like it's rubbuing hard and the right rail has peening on the one side. I think the gun just need more ammo run. It's a new reciever and the machine marks are gonna be sharp and kinda grabby.

spencerhut
11-04-2009, 7:47 PM
Now that is how you post a problem question.

Good job making your problem clear.

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 7:49 PM
Now that is how you post a problem question.

Good job making your problem clear.

Boo can take a picture of mud and make it look clear.

1988
11-04-2009, 8:48 PM
YdLAGLAO9IA


I think the problem is right at the part when the bolt having hard time to return. It's similar to the problem that I had with my Saiga 12.

You might want to identify all friction points between the bolt and the receiver/FCG and smooth or polish them until the bolt can return freely. You might also want to test it out without the mag attached.

russ69
11-04-2009, 9:01 PM
I think the idea to try a dedicated 10 round mag is a good idea. The bolt will hang a little on the mag follower but your modified mag might make a difference. I'd check the gas system after that.

Thanx, Russ

tankerman
11-04-2009, 9:25 PM
Might just be me, but that stainless screw looks out of place. http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvI14VZm6UI/AAAAAAABExs/hhIb2Xw9rXs/s800/IMG_0183.JPG

sd1023x
11-04-2009, 9:30 PM
Aiite booshanky, I'm not doin a good job of showing you up, if you notice, i bothered to take the beer bottle cap out of my second pic.

You notice the area on your picture circled in red, the follower lip is tilted up?

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3826/img0178it.jpg

Here is a few photos of some of my ten rounders, notice the front follower lip is level. And also, I've had this mag for over a decade and I don't show as much wear on top of the follower as yours does? Especially on an empty mag should there be that much contact with the mag and the bottom of the bolt, if there was as much wear on this magazine as is on yours, if I had as much contact on the mag follower, the plastic would show grooves. Simple test would be to take the mag out and see if it binds as much. Yeah, i've never seen an AK type bind up on the mag/in that bolt position as bad as yours does in the video.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5673/img0721n.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3549/img0722h.jpg

SPUTTER
11-04-2009, 10:08 PM
Nice vid.
You stated that you had an ejection problem, but you have notice an issue when you manually pull the bolt back. So lets address the issues separately and not try to intertwine the two. They maybe related or they may not be, but lets not assume the are.
I have a VZ58 and upon pulling the bolt back (as you did in the vid) it wont "catch" at all unless I apply pressure to the bolt catch button. If I insert a mag the bolt wont "catch" until its all the way back.
With that said, it looks like the bolt catch is applying pressure to the bolt when it shouldn't be. This could be caused by your magazine or your bolt catch. The first thing I would do is remove the magazine and see if you feel the bolt "catch". It shouldnt.
Needless to say, I have had issues with aftermarket VZ58 mag parts. If you want to meet sometime next week at a range, I'd be more than happy to let you shoot my rifle and try out my mags.
Let me know, peace.

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 10:17 PM
Thats not an AK, it a VZ 58. Completely different.


Aiite booshanky, I'm not doin a good job of showing you up, if you notice, i bothered to take the beer bottle cap out of my second pic.

You notice the area on your picture circled in red, the follower lip is tilted up?

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3826/img0178it.jpg

Here is a few photos of some of my ten rounders, notice the front follower lip is level. And also, I've had this mag for over a decade and I don't show as much wear on top of the follower as yours does? Especially on an empty mag should there be that much contact with the mag and the bottom of the bolt, if there was as much wear on this magazine as is on yours, if I had as much contact on the mag follower, the plastic would show grooves. Simple test would be to take the mag out and see if it binds as much. Yeah, i've never seen an AK type bind up on the mag/in that bolt position as bad as yours does in the video.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5673/img0721n.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3549/img0722h.jpg

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 10:18 PM
I think the idea to try a dedicated 10 round mag is a good idea. The bolt will hang a little on the mag follower but your modified mag might make a difference. I'd check the gas system after that.

Thanx, Russ

Is there dedicated 10 round mags for a VZ 58?

sd1023x
11-04-2009, 10:35 PM
Thats not an AK, it a VZ 58. Completely different.

Whoops, sorry on that, took the wrong pictures, bulgarian waffles for the AK. Guess that bottle cap was one too many. But my VZ follower doesn't tilt like that and neither does it have that much contact on the follower. I'll take more pics tomorrow. But a straight up ten rounder will fix your problems. http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/spare-parts-and-accessories/vz-58-parts-and-accessories/10-rd-double-stack-magazine-body-refinished-/

1988
11-05-2009, 12:18 AM
Is there dedicated 10 round mags for a VZ 58?

You can get them at Czechpoint.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 6:45 AM
Woah, I just woke up and I've got a lot to read! Thanks!

One question before I get into any details. How could I legally remove the magazine from this? Remove the grip first?

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 6:55 AM
Now that is how you post a problem question.

Good job making your problem clear.

Thanks. I have plenty of experience on Calguns trying to explain myself to people. Haha.

Dirtbiker
11-05-2009, 8:39 AM
Yes, just pull the grip.

No flash hider and no folding stock right?

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 8:50 AM
Nope, fixed stock and no flash hider or brake. Taking it apart now. Will have a new video up in a sec.

radioburning
11-05-2009, 8:53 AM
[joking with a buddy]Boo, it's the springs. You're using Liberal springs, they're weak and expect the other parts to do their job for them[/joking with a buddy]
:D

Let me know next time you head to Angeles, I still haven't shot my VZ yet.

Greg-Dawg
11-05-2009, 9:03 AM
Just take it back to Turners and get your money back...to buy a real AK.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 9:42 AM
[joking with a buddy]Boo, it's the springs. You're using Liberal springs, they're weak and expect the other parts to do their job for them[/joking with a buddy]
:D

Let me know next time you head to Angeles, I still haven't shot my VZ yet.

Holla!

They ARE liberal springs. Frownyface. :(

I'm gonna be down in your neck of the woods later. You gonna be around? Maybe we could compare builds.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 9:42 AM
Just take it back to Turners and get your money back...to buy a real AK.

Didn't get it at turners.

harmoniums
11-05-2009, 9:51 AM
yeah boo, pull out the mag and see how it ejects single shot wise.
I agree, the mag follower does seem to tilt up a bit in that picture and could be hanging the bolt up, dont worry about removing the pistol grip.
Your mag catch wont function (as theres no spring) when the screw is backed out.
If there is still weak ejection, you probably need a larger diameter gas piston, Ive got loads

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 9:57 AM
Hey Boo, what was the build time for that gun? I still want to build one but no money and kids= no new anything for dad.

Another thing i've found that works for finding out where stuff ic catching. Get a fat magic marker and get a nice layer on all of the contact points.
you will be able to see where the parts a rubbing really hard. That will give you an idea of where you should work over with a stone and polish up.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 10:11 AM
yeah boo, pull out the mag and see how it ejects single shot wise.
I agree, the mag follower does seem to tilt up a bit in that picture and could be hanging the bolt up, dont worry about removing the pistol grip.
Your mag catch wont function (as theres no spring) when the screw is backed out.
If there is still weak ejection, you probably need a larger diameter gas piston, Ive got loads



Awesome dude. I'll keep that all in mind. Here's the second vid I made.

BJfs9uoY1p4

It looks like it's coming down to either the gas or the mag. I'm going to get a 10 rounder from czechpoint that's pre-made and not one I goofed with myself.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 10:14 AM
Hey Boo, what was the build time for that gun? I still want to build one but no money and kids= no new anything for dad.

Another thing i've found that works for finding out where stuff ic catching. Get a fat magic marker and get a nice layer on all of the contact points.
you will be able to see where the parts a rubbing really hard. That will give you an idea of where you should work over with a stone and polish up.

It was a few hours to build. I did the group buy with Harmoniums and he really was the one who did all the work. He's the man.

That sounds like a good idea with the marker. I'm going to try that because the receiver is brand new and it's a bit tight. I'm certain that there are a few spots that could lose a little bit of metal.

harmoniums
11-05-2009, 10:23 AM
the trigger not resetting is a problem with the crappy out of spec compliance parts that ORF made (they're out of business now....)
the trigger/sear link needs to be shaped a bit with a dremel.
I can show you how this weekend.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 10:42 AM
Suhhhweet. I'll give you a call later.

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 11:12 AM
Boo, Just watched the vid. I would drop the block a bit or even take a coil or 2 off the mag spring.
Get the FCG fixed and shoot that thing. Looks good though, i've never shot a VZ 58 but i've been shooting for 25 years and very mechaniclly inclined.
I wonder whats harder, a VZ 598 or a milled AK reweld?

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 11:13 AM
Haha, not sure. But any time someone tells me the answer to my problem is to just shoot more, I'm always stoked. Haha.

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 11:14 AM
It was a few hours to build. I did the group buy with Harmoniums and he really was the one who did all the work. He's the man.

That sounds like a good idea with the marker. I'm going to try that because the receiver is brand new and it's a bit tight. I'm certain that there are a few spots that could lose a little bit of metal.

Go slow with that, unless your a good welder it'll be pretty tough to add metal.

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 11:15 AM
Haha, not sure. But any time someone tells me the answer to my problem is to just shoot more, I'm always stoked. Haha.

As well you should:D
It's like kids.....whats the best part?



Making them....AAWWWW YEAHHHH Bow chiga bow wow

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Go slow with that, unless your a good welder it'll be pretty tough to add metal.

Oddly enough, my dad has been a welder for 40 years and I don't know how to weld. Go figure huh?

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 11:23 AM
Oddly enough, my dad has been a welder for 40 years and I don't know how to weld. Go figure huh?

All it'll do is make you money. I'm gonna test on 2 dec so I can get back to work.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 11:57 AM
All it'll do is make you money. I'm gonna test on 2 dec so I can get back to work.

Yeah, I wanna learn for sure. I think he never taught me because he didn't want me to follow in his footsteps or something. I'm safely in a whole other line of work now so I'm going to make him play catch up.

radioburning
11-05-2009, 12:56 PM
Holla!

They ARE liberal springs. Frownyface. :(

I'm gonna be down in your neck of the woods later. You gonna be around? Maybe we could compare builds.

Naw, I'll be on a photo-shoot on Rodeo Drive later today. Too bad, we coulda grabbed a pint.

campperrykid
11-05-2009, 1:39 PM
Just to make sure:
Does the rifle have an ORF reciever and compliance parts?
The reason that I ask is that the issues ( and fixes ) with ORF stuff are fairly well known in some circles. Might save some folks from needing to start from square one and re-invent the wheel from scratch.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 1:39 PM
Naw, I'll be on a photo-shoot on Rodeo Drive later today. Too bad, we coulda grabbed a pint.

Bummer. Well I might have to stop by one of my clients which is right around the corner from Rodeo on beverly between santa monica and wilshire. I'll give you a call and see if you're around.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 1:43 PM
Just to make sure:
Does the rifle have an ORF reciever and compliance parts?
The reason that I ask is that the issues ( and fixes ) with ORF stuff are fairly well known in some circles. Might save some folks from needing to start from square one and re-invent the wheel from scratch.


ORF?

harmoniums
11-05-2009, 1:55 PM
yes (ORF = Ohio Rapid Fire)

Dirtbiker
11-05-2009, 2:17 PM
Since when is Ohio Rapid Fire out of business?

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 6:54 PM
yes (ORF = Ohio Rapid Fire)

Oh, is that who made the receivers? I don't know.

Booshanky
11-05-2009, 7:04 PM
Yep, found the serial. It's an ORF.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's an issue with the receiver.

evollep3
11-05-2009, 7:25 PM
i had a simular problem with mines but after i shot 50 rounds through her she started to come around

SJgunguy24
11-05-2009, 9:56 PM
i had a simular problem with mines but after i shot 50 rounds through her she started to come around

Thats typical for Czech chicks, they like to be slapped around, hammered on and put away smoking and wanting more........


Oh the guns.....:eek:

Booshanky
11-06-2009, 12:56 PM
Alright, last video. I think we've narrowed it down to either an ejector that's a bit low, or a bolt carrier that has too much play in it. As you can see, I can cycle rounds pretty well, but if the bolt is pulled up at all while cycling the round, it stays on the bolt. But if I press down while racking the BCG, it ejects it pretty powerfully.

I should also note, that while I didn't mention it in the video, I removed the striker spring to prevent any ND's while cycling these rounds.

YTL2mpscVFY

And here is a close-up view of the extractor and bolt.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4bf9tmqvjjY/SvR5sQ0dsQI/AAAAAAABE74/ijFRrcNRAkc/s800/IMG_0443.JPG

campperrykid
11-06-2009, 1:27 PM
Oh, is that who made the receivers? I don't know.
Good luck.

Booshanky
11-06-2009, 3:26 PM
Thanks. I think the receiver is fine though. Just got to do a little fine-tuning and this baby will be rock solid.

Cali-V
11-06-2009, 10:40 PM
Nice vids...

Nice build... I'm working on removing my barrel

Boo make sure your mag spring is not installed backwards... that may be causing a slight tilt...

If you decide to go a different route for your ORF trigger and sear check out obiwanbonjovi on AK Forum, he has some some nice VZ compliance parts, here is a link to a GB (http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105149&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50) he did... it just closed but there is contact info...

Yeah, I'd bet in solving your drag problem your ejection problem will also disappear, from your pics the ejector looks unused and properly staked...

Like others have said, if you get to the range before your 10 rounder gets in, shoot it single shot... and the story will be told...

campperrykid
11-07-2009, 6:12 AM
+1 on Obi , a very solid guy.
The Ak Forum.net had some group buys and special deals on Ohio Rapid Fire recievers , 922r parts and complete ORF rifles during the last couple of years.
There are literally hundreds of people over there with metric tons of experience tweaking/tuning ORF products. Nothing against Calguns -- people in California are the world experts at beating stupid laws without breaking them & going to jail.
;)

The guys at theakforum.net got the first of the truly affordable VZ58's in the US. Prolly over 2K of ORF's & D-Tech's in group buys & specials alone.

Booshanky
11-07-2009, 10:52 AM
Nice vids...

Nice build... I'm working on removing my barrel

Boo make sure your mag spring is not installed backwards... that may be causing a slight tilt...

Which way is forward an which is backward?

If you decide to go a different route for your ORF trigger and sear check out obiwanbonjovi on AK Forum, he has some some nice VZ compliance parts, here is a link to a GB (http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105149&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50) he did... it just closed but there is contact info...

Yeah, I'd bet in solving your drag problem your ejection problem will also disappear, from your pics the ejector looks unused and properly staked...

Like others have said, if you get to the range before your 10 rounder gets in, shoot it single shot... and the story will be told...

Ooo, nice. I'll get an account set up there ASAP. Thanks!

Cali-V
11-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Which way is forward an which is backward?


I took a look at a mag; and it looks like, the spring will not cause a tilt problem... In either position my follower would rest snugly against the right
side lip... In terms of forward/backward, there is a notch on the follower which holds the first coil of the spring... It looks like the spring is designed such that, when the spring is placed under the notch in the follower, you'll get proper positioning... Your are properly ok. so I won't post a pic...

justinLB
11-19-2009, 7:20 AM
the trigger not resetting is a problem with the crappy out of spec compliance parts that ORF made (they're out of business now....)
the trigger/sear link needs to be shaped a bit with a dremel.
I can show you how this weekend.

Can you explain what exactly needs to be done with these triggers, maybe even post a pic or two?
I can't even get them to fit! What happened to the vz-58 build party?