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View Full Version : AD = ND? Yeah or Nay?


grumpycoconut
11-02-2009, 8:34 PM
Someone in another forum stated that all "accidental discharges" are by definition "negligent discharges" "AD=ND"

What say the masses?

One must define one's terms to truly argue well

webster says

Main Entry: neg•li•gent
Pronunciation: \-jənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin neglegent-, neglegens, present participle of neglegere
Date: 14th century
1 a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b : failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances
2 : marked by a carelessly easy manner

Webster also says

Main Entry: ac•ci•dent
Pronunciation: \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident> c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought d —used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3 : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>

Hypothetical situation to start the discussion:

Shooter is in a range traing session running a live fire obstacle course that includes a simulated primary weapon stoppage mid course. Simulated stoppage is determined by round count not by any mechanical means. Immediate action drill is to dump the long gun on the sling and keep fighting with pistol. Shooter hits his round count and dumps his long gun. Long gun is on a single point sling hung off of a heavy vest with various and sundry pouches and stuff attached with oh so black and eminently tactical velcro. Long gun hits end of sling and swings so that the 1/4 inch now protruberant formerly firmly attached corner of a utility pouch slides into the trigger guard tripping the trigger. Loud bloody hillarity ensues.

PolishMike
11-02-2009, 8:36 PM
No such thing as an AD.

/thread.

psssniper
11-02-2009, 8:37 PM
negligent unless there is a hardware malfunction, then the safety rules save your arse

Cokebottle
11-02-2009, 8:37 PM
There may be some exceptions... like maybe someone flicks a ciggy butt into your ammo box, but I would say that 99% of the time, the discharge could have been prevented by the shooter following proper safety procedures.

Under the situation presented, ND, especially in a training situation.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
11-02-2009, 8:56 PM
Hardware malfunction that causes discharge without any human intervention = AD. Anything else is an ND.

HCz
11-02-2009, 8:57 PM
Hardware malfunction that causes discharge without any human intervention = AD. Anything else is an ND.

End of thread.

sholling
11-02-2009, 9:12 PM
negligent unless there is a hardware malfunction, then the safety rules save your arse
+1 a hardware malfunction that you did not create yourself is the only exception. In other words if you personally FUBARed sear then it's still an ND, but if it came that way or was butchered by a real gunsmith it's an AD.

CHS
11-02-2009, 9:21 PM
99.9% of the "AD's" that I hear about are in reality "ND's", but I'm not so ignorant to spout off that there is no such thing as an AD.

Accidents DO happen, even when someone is following all safety protocols. It's those safety protocols that keep people from getting hurt when an AD does actually happen.

So no, not all AD's = ND's. But most do.

MudCamper
11-02-2009, 9:29 PM
Hypothetical situation to start the discussion:

Shooter is in a range traing session running a live fire obstacle course that includes a simulated primary weapon stoppage mid course. Simulated stoppage is determined by round count not by any mechanical means. Immediate action drill is to dump the long gun on the sling and keep fighting with pistol. Shooter hits his round count and dumps his long gun. Long gun is on a single point sling hung off of a heavy vest with various and sundry pouches and stuff attached with oh so black and eminently tactical velcro. Long gun hits end of sling and swings so that the 1/4 inch now protruberant formerly firmly attached corner of a utility pouch slides into the trigger guard tripping the trigger. Loud bloody hillarity ensues.

In this scenario, the shooter knew he had a round in the chamber, and he chose NOT to put the safety on, and then throw the rifle down onto his vest full of protruding items. Negligence.

bruss01
11-03-2009, 6:37 AM
In this scenario, the shooter knew he had a round in the chamber, and he chose NOT to put the safety on, and then throw the rifle down onto his vest full of protruding items. Negligence.

Agreed, technically this is negligence for the above stated reason, i.e. tossing a rifle with a chambered round without first engaging the safety or unloading the gun. However, most of us will concede that if we have live rounds winging past us at supersonic velocities in a real world defensive situation that we would probably forget or neglect that particular "finer point" as well. I suppose/suspect that the trainer conducting the drill did not stress the point of engaging the safety or unloading the gun before continuing the transition to the pistol, when he was briefing the trainees.

Spyder
11-03-2009, 6:51 AM
...every training situation I've been putting the safety on in that exact drill has been HIGHLY stressed. That would be a ND, but I say barely. Safety in training is of utmost importance but it goes against the old "Train like you fight, fight like you train" mantra.

pennys dad
11-03-2009, 6:57 AM
I saw an "accidental discharge" once and I still think it was an ND.

Beelzy
11-03-2009, 7:01 AM
If one's finger is/was on the trigger, Negligent.

Everything else, Accident.

Simple enough.

lawaia
11-03-2009, 7:02 AM
In this scenario, the shooter knew he had a round in the chamber, and he chose NOT to put the safety on, and then throw the rifle down onto his vest full of protruding items. Negligence.

+1000

Either flip the safety on prior to dumping, or only load the prescribed number of rounds into the magazine and fire until you are actually empty.

This scenario is total neglegence, both on the part of the shooter and the trainer (if there was one).

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 7:13 AM
Hardware malfunction that causes discharge without any human intervention = AD. Anything else is an ND.

You drop gun.......gun goes bang= AD

Your in control of gun......gun goes bang=ND

End of story.

Ross
11-03-2009, 7:18 AM
AD - You hear something in the middle of the night and fumble in your night stand for the gun and accidently pull the trigger, hitting your wall.

ND - Pointing the gun at your wife's stomach and pulling the trigger to prove it is unloaded.

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 7:21 AM
AD - You hear something in the middle of the night and fumble in your night stand for the gun and accidently pull the trigger, hitting your wall.

ND - Pointing the gun at your wife's stomach and pulling the trigger to prove it is unloaded.

Nope...FAIL ND on both accounts.

Your in control of that firearm.

PolishMike
11-03-2009, 7:44 AM
You drop gun.......gun goes bang= AD

Your in control of gun......gun goes bang=ND

End of story.


So dropping a loaded gun is not negligent? HAHA

KylaGWolf
11-03-2009, 9:34 AM
As someone else said if there is a mechanical issue then it is an AD although sometimes can happen in other situations but most are NDs. Closest I have been to an ND is at Front Sight we were supposed to be doing dry drills and well the guy next to me was loaded and BOOM. That was the second time he had done that. All I could think of is wonderful :eek::rolleyes: I am stuck next to him all day since we were testing at this point and couldn't change lanes.

Turbinator
11-03-2009, 9:50 AM
Notice that accidents can be caused by negligence, but negligence cannot be caused by accidents.

Turby

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 9:52 AM
So dropping a loaded gun is not negligent? HAHA

Gun hits ground and goes bang....your gun should be look at.

Turbinator
11-03-2009, 9:54 AM
Gun hits ground and goes bang....your gun should be look at.

I agree with this, dropping the gun itself may be some form of negligence; however the gun actually discharging due to the drop is an accident.

Turby

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 10:00 AM
I agree with this, dropping the gun itself may be some form of negligence; however the gun actually discharging due to the drop is an accident.

Turby

Hey Turby, you heading down for the shoot this weekend?

Turbinator
11-03-2009, 4:40 PM
Hey Turby, you heading down for the shoot this weekend?

I won't be - you going? Enjoy - blast some zombies for all of us. :)

Turby

bohoki
11-03-2009, 6:18 PM
if the trigger is depressed and the weapon fires it is not an accident

if done unintentionally it is neglegence

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 11:53 PM
I won't be - you going? Enjoy - blast some zombies for all of us. :)

Turby

Oh yeah.

PolishMike
11-04-2009, 7:04 AM
I agree with this, dropping the gun itself may be some form of negligence; however the gun actually discharging due to the drop is an accident.

Turby


So I'm shooting in the lane next to you at the range and I happen to drop my gun for w/e reason. It goes off and gets you in the leg. Are you going to call that an accident or negligent in the court papers?

Cokebottle
11-04-2009, 7:17 AM
So I'm shooting in the lane next to you at the range and I happen to drop my gun for w/e reason. It goes off and gets you in the leg. Are you going to call that an accident or negligent in the court papers?
Definitely ND because the barrel was not pointed down-range.

jmf_tracy
11-04-2009, 8:56 AM
no such thing as AD. it is called a ND.

CHS
11-04-2009, 9:01 AM
no such thing as AD.

And that's ignorance talking.

MudCamper
11-04-2009, 9:05 AM
So I'm shooting in the lane next to you at the range and I happen to drop my gun for w/e reason. It goes off and gets you in the leg. Are you going to call that an accident or negligent in the court papers?

I'll have to disagree on this one and call it an AD. Generally I agree with those who've said, finger on trigger = ND, and finger not on trigger = AD. Although the first scenario from the OP was clearly an exception to this IMO.

Black Majik
11-04-2009, 9:45 AM
Any mechanical malfunction causing the firearm to discharge is an accidental discharge. EVERYTHING else is a ND.

Shooter is in a range traing session running a live fire obstacle course that includes a simulated primary weapon stoppage mid course. Simulated stoppage is determined by round count not by any mechanical means. Immediate action drill is to dump the long gun on the sling and keep fighting with pistol. Shooter hits his round count and dumps his long gun. Long gun is on a single point sling hung off of a heavy vest with various and sundry pouches and stuff attached with oh so black and eminently tactical velcro. Long gun hits end of sling and swings so that the 1/4 inch now protruberant formerly firmly attached corner of a utility pouch slides into the trigger guard tripping the trigger. Loud bloody hillarity ensues.

ND. Weapon should have been put on safe.

Untamed1972
11-04-2009, 9:54 AM
So I'm shooting in the lane next to you at the range and I happen to drop my gun for w/e reason. It goes off and gets you in the leg. Are you going to call that an accident or negligent in the court papers?


If you dropped it because of a 10.16 earthquake, or happened to be knocked over by a wild buffalo running lose in the range.....ok.....it was an accident. Otherwise.....if your gun is loaded you better keep your hands on it.

Untamed1972
11-04-2009, 10:01 AM
In this scenario, the shooter knew he had a round in the chamber, and he chose NOT to put the safety on, and then throw the rifle down onto his vest full of protruding items. Negligence.


:iagree:

bruss01
11-07-2009, 10:06 AM
If one's finger is/was on the trigger, Negligent.

Everything else, Accident.

Simple enough.

Yup, load my gun, stick it in the tumble dryer with the laundry just for kicks, it goes off OMG that's an accident.

Is that what you think?

Load my gun, toss it into the privet hedge repeatedly just to see what happens, OMG it went off, well that was another accident right?

Any handling/mishandling or treatment of a gun outside approved safe handling practices that results in an unintended or undirected discharge IMHO is negligence. Having a finger on a trigger is not the defining circumstance, it is the carelessness and disregard of proper safe handling procedures of any kind that defines a negligent discharge. Should you handle a gun without having a firm, secure grip on it? NO. Should you handle a gun in such a way that you are likely to drop it? NO. Who decides/controls these things? YOU DO, the gun handler. If you handled the gun in such an offhand, careless manner that you managed to drop it, THAT IS NEGLIGENT because you could have handled it securely. Now, if you are in the woods shooting and suddenly a 150 lb Great Dane jumps on you and causes you to drop the gun and it goes off, that could be an accident. But you just being fumble-fingered and dropping the gun? That's not an accident friend, you could have handled that gun securely but for whatever reason you did not, unless you were having an epileptic seizure at the moment in which case should you really be handling a loaded firearm if it's not a matter of life and death?

Mechanical failure of a gun resulting in a discharge = accident. Improper handling/treatment of any kind resulting in a discharge = negligence. Only grey areas I see are if your dog decides to chew your bedside table Glock and it goes off. Storing a pistol on your bedside table should be safe enough, and you didn't do anything that actually caused the discharge. I suppose the argument can be made that if you have a toddler who likes to play with things or a dog who likes to chew stuff with your scent on it, that leaving it unsecured was "negligent". I can see both sides of that argument. But I totally don't buy "finger on trigger" as the line between negligent and accidental.

Technical Ted
11-07-2009, 10:14 AM
Any mechanical malfunction causing the firearm to discharge is an accidental discharge. EVERYTHING else is a ND.

Regular inspection. Function checks. Preventative maintenance. Proper maintenance. Personal responsibility.

Minimize accidents.

"Accident" is an excuse for "I didn't/don't know what I'm doing ".

virulosity
11-07-2009, 10:27 AM
When you are training and working on trigger prep in a controlled environment and maintain directional control of the gun it is ok to have an AD. I am sure if you ask any pro shooter that has a lot of experience in IPSC, IDPA, etc. they have had accidental double taps. OK as long as you hit the target ;)

Colt
11-07-2009, 3:22 PM
Hardware malfunction that causes discharge without any human intervention = AD. Anything else is an ND.

+1. 'nuff said...