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View Full Version : Any issues for LEO's buying Taurus Judge?


WFAInc
11-02-2009, 5:06 PM
Just wondering. I have a LEO that wants to buy a judge. He had gone somewhere else and they told him he couldn't but did not offer any explanation. I said he could since he can purchase anything off roster, but he wants to make sure he can before he commits to it and I just want to verify. Thanks.

ke6guj
11-02-2009, 6:20 PM
nope, a Taurus Judge is considered by CA to be an SBS. There is no LEO-exemption to personal ownership of an SBS.


12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:

(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

OHOD
11-02-2009, 7:38 PM
Darn!
I have been wanting The Judge and had been wondering why there are none around.:no:

ontargetrange
11-02-2009, 9:27 PM
Darn!
I have been wanting The Judge and had been wondering why there are none around.:no:

I have gone directly to the DOJ source -- it MUST be purchased by the department and assigned by them to an officer -- no personal ownership

Sorry - I could have sold a dozen of them by now

Vectrexer
11-02-2009, 10:14 PM
I have gone directly to the DOJ source -- it MUST be purchased by the department and assigned by them to an officer -- no personal ownership

Sorry - I could have sold a dozen of them by now

And I might have bought that dozen too! :)

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 9:21 AM
what will happen is that the buyers will get a nice felony 12020 conviction if they aren't careful. What else should happen? Should they get an amnesty for illegally possessing an SBS because they were ignorant of the law?

Quiet
11-03-2009, 11:56 AM
As always, an interesting subject with varying opinions. :)

Well the letter of the law for CA, says anything that can shoot a shotgun shell and has a barrel length less than 18" and/or an overall length less than 26" is a SBS. In addition the letter of the law for CA, says firearms that are defined as handguns can also be classified as a SBS/SBR.


Penal Code 12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 12001
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 12:47 PM
The question still looms;
If the Judge is illegal, why are FFL's still selling them by the dozens every week?

really, dozens per week? Sounds like there may be some drama some day for some people. I'd assume that CADOJ is aware of this since the AFS records should show that Judges are being DROSed.

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 1:04 PM
I dunno, maybe they are giving the FFL enough rope to hang themselves.

CAL.BAR
11-03-2009, 1:32 PM
nope, a Taurus Judge is considered by CA to be an SBS. There is no LEO-exemption to personal ownership of an SBS.

Also considered an assault rifle/shotgun b/c of the cylindrical magazine (i.e like the famous street sweeper)

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 1:36 PM
Also considered an assault rifle/shotgun b/c of the cylindrical magazine (i.e like the famous street sweeper)possibly. But a Judge does not meet the definition of a shotgun, so it should not fall under the shotgun AW regs.

Similar to how a .50BMG M2 isn't actually a rifle, so it shouldn't fall under the .50BMG rifle ban. But that hasn't stopped CADOJ from confiscating at least one Ma Duece as an unregistered .50BMG rifle.

WFAInc
11-03-2009, 4:15 PM
So they're a bunch of LEO's buying these?

CHS
11-03-2009, 7:10 PM
As always, an interesting subject with varying opinions. :)

There's no opinion. It's a felony, and that's a fact. Period.

professorhard
11-03-2009, 7:16 PM
But a Judge does not meet the definition of a shotgun

So how is it possible for it to be considered a short barrel shotgun if it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun?:confused:

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 7:21 PM
So how is it possible for it to be considered a short barrel shotgun if it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun?:confused:

because CA's definition of an SBS does not require it to be a shotgun.


12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.section (A) and (B) just say "firearm capable of firing a shotgun shell" without requiring the firearm be a shotgun. Federal law resembles (C) in that the item must be a shotgun before it can be considered an SBS.

CHS
11-03-2009, 7:21 PM
So how is it possible for it to be considered a short barrel shotgun if it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun?:confused:

There are two regulations at war here.

For the most part in CA law, a shotgun is described very specifically as something designed to fire from the shoulder. This is the definition that applies to the AW regulations, and any shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an AW.

However, to define an SBS, CA doesn't even use the definition of a shotgun at all. They simply say that ANYTHING that fires fixed shotgun ammunition with an OAL less than 26" and/or a barrel length less than 18" is an SBS and against the law. It doesn't actually have to be a shotgun first, in order to be an SBS.

professorhard
11-03-2009, 7:25 PM
Wow that's pretty ridiculous.

CHS
11-03-2009, 8:37 PM
Wow that's pretty ridiculous.

That right there describes 95% of CA's gun laws, and at least 75% of Federal gun laws.

Mason McDuffie
11-03-2009, 8:39 PM
I have been drooling over a Judge for quite awhile now. If LEO's can get one then god bless em. Give me a freakin badge!

CHS
11-03-2009, 8:46 PM
That's the thing, LEO's *CAN'T* lawfully get them. They are all in violation of CA's SBS laws. A felony.

Mason McDuffie
11-03-2009, 8:50 PM
Kinda like they can't have their side windows tinted but if you go into a parking lot outside station everyone does?

CHS
11-03-2009, 9:15 PM
Kinda like they can't have their side windows tinted but if you go into a parking lot outside station everyone does?

Yeah, but with less infraction. And more felony.

CHS
11-03-2009, 9:51 PM
That being the case, it will be interesting to see what happens when they come looking for the tens of thousands of judges that are out there and the FFLs that are selling them.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u145/OutfittersSurplus/100_1710.jpg

"Tens of thousands"?

And a nice photograph of your felony.

You sir, are a bleeding moron.

A324
11-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Well this is a fine kettle of fish....

Adehtla
11-03-2009, 10:34 PM
The first question is, who in the CADOJ is failing to take notice of all these Judges being DROSed?

The second, who is guilty of the felony: the sellers who are offering illegal weapons for sale, the buyer who relies on the seller to provide legal-to-own weapons, or the CADOJ employee(s) who are failing to take notice of the weapons being sold?

ke6guj
11-03-2009, 10:53 PM
The second, who is guilty of the felony: the sellers who are offering illegal weapons for sale, the buyer who relies on the seller to provide legal-to-own weapons, or the CADOJ employee(s) who are failing to take notice of the weapons being sold?My guess would be both the buyers and the sellers.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

Peter W Bush
11-03-2009, 11:19 PM
Why do people take pictures of things that are illegal and post them on the internet? wtf?

Adehtla
11-03-2009, 11:24 PM
Why do people take pictures of things that are illegal and post them on the internet? wtf?

Because they enjoy being examples.

tenpercentfirearms
11-03-2009, 11:44 PM
I have one on my CCW, so it is legit.

Adehtla
11-04-2009, 12:28 AM
I have one on my CCW, so it is legit.

Oh wow... I seriously hope you're not serious. You listed-- let me get this right-- an illegal short-barreled shortgun, which is also a handgun not on the approved register, on your CCW? You really don't like that CCW, do you?

Ron-Solo
11-04-2009, 9:55 AM
So what is the difference with a revolver that fires .38 sp snake shot? It is a "shot shell" after all.

I'm thinking there has to be some exception, but I haven't found it yet. Also, by these definitions, a Judge would fall under federal SBS regulations, which it apparently does not.

Hmmmmm?????

CHS
11-04-2009, 10:01 AM
So what is the difference with a revolver that fires .38 sp snake shot? It is a "shot shell" after all.


No, it's a metallic cartridge loaded with shot.

There are no shotgun shell's that will fit in a .38 or .357 revolver.

CHS
11-04-2009, 11:06 AM
Maybe the rifled barrel on the judge has something to do with it? Or that it can also shoot .45LC? :TFH:


Nope. It's a firearm capable of firing a shotgun shell with a barrel less than 18". Period. It's a felony. Period.

Are you so ignorantly convinced that this thing is legal that you're honestly going to argue about it on a public forum and let the world know that you have an illegal short barreled shotgun in the state of CA?

There is no gray area here. There is no "loophole". You're wrong and a felon. That's it.


I find it hard to believe that the DOJ would willfully and knowingly allow illegal dealings to continue without interference.

AFS is an automated system. They don't know it's happening. That doesn't make it ok or legal.

Adehtla
11-04-2009, 1:49 PM
At the Federal level the Judge is not a shotgun due to its rifled barrel. California does care about the barrel, just what it can shoot. Remember, the issue at hand here is California's asinine firearms laws. I think it would be wise to leave out Federal laws as the Judge is just fine by those.

TurboS600
11-04-2009, 2:18 PM
Yeah, but with less infraction. And more felony.

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

G1

tenpercentfirearms
11-04-2009, 6:38 PM
Oh wow... I seriously hope you're not serious. You listed-- let me get this right-- an illegal short-barreled shortgun, which is also a handgun not on the approved register, on your CCW? You really don't like that CCW, do you?

It's Kern County. You can have three guns on your permit. I have a Glock 27, a Judge, and a M249 on it.

CSACANNONEER
11-04-2009, 6:49 PM
It's Kern County. You can have three guns on your permit. I have a Glock 27, a Judge, and a M249 on it.

Why not put your Glock 18 on it instead of the 27?

Ron-Solo
11-04-2009, 10:57 PM
No, it's a metallic cartridge loaded with shot.

There are no shotgun shell's that will fit in a .38 or .357 revolver.

One could argue that both are shotgun shells since they fire "shot"

I've seen metallic .410 shells........the difference? One could say it's a .45LC snakeshot load with that logic and be legal.

I will contact a couple of filing DA's I know and see if I can get more info.

FYI, I don't own a Judge and every firearm I own is in compliance with California law and Federal law. I wouldn't mind owning one, but would like to get this cleared up. I think there is something we are missing. And please don't quote 12020 PC to me again. I've made hundreds of arrests over the last 31 years to know the section.

There are exemptions hidden everywhere in the PC, which is what makes it so difficult to understand. I'm trying to keep this discussion informative and some people keep slinging personal attacks at people for posting photos and such without knowing the context of when & where the photo was shot. If I post video of me shooting a machine gun, does that make me a felon? No, it makes me fortunate that I sometimes have access to legally possessed machine guns. They are FUN! :cool:

Aloha,

Ron

rambo
11-06-2009, 10:19 PM
one of the guys i went shooting with a few weeks ago out at carrizo creek had one of these Judges and we picked up ammo at walmart. He is a LEO but did not mention it was hard to get just a new toy I will ask what way he came about purchasing it.

Mason McDuffie
06-12-2010, 11:51 PM
I just read the recent article on one.....this same week I was going through my DVR and saw there was an old episode of Best Defense which featured the gun. Shame being here in Cali I won't know how much fun can be had carrying one....especially with the new shells being made. DAMN!!!!

CA Gun Laws Suck
06-13-2010, 12:12 AM
It's Kern County. You can have three guns on your permit. I have a Glock 27, a Judge, and a M249 on it.

:rofl2:

JaMail
06-19-2010, 4:34 PM
haha, came across this while looking for somethign else.. ARISE FROM THE DEAD ZOMBIE THREAD.. ARISE

:7:

AJAX22
06-19-2010, 6:13 PM
You guys do realize that most 45-70 guns can also fire 410 shells right?

This means under a strict interpretation all of the 4570 revolvers , derringers and 16 inch rifles are shotguns under ca law....


There are a couple of .45-lc guns which can chamber and fire the short .410 shells (even though they aren't designed for it)

Blue
06-19-2010, 6:22 PM
The question still looms;
If the Judge is illegal, why are FFL's still selling them by the dozens every week?

Here in CA?

AJAX22
06-19-2010, 6:28 PM
Yes, there are several ffl's in ca who have sold large numbers of Taurus judge firearms to law enforcement officers...

brianinca
06-19-2010, 7:49 PM
>>>
Also considered an assault rifle/shotgun b/c of the cylindrical magazine (i.e like the famous street sweeper)
>>>

This is what the Superior Court judges in my county were told when they went to the Sheriff to see if they could get them. All the judges and retired judges I know (10?+) carry, and back in Nov I had a very interesting conversation about the Judge series with a couple of them. The P229 and the Kimber super-carry-zaptastic two of them had were part of the conversation, followed by "too bad we can't carry JUDGE'S!!!" I was a buzz kill because I offered that a 410 was a piss poor substitute for a real defensive cartridge and that you'd have to be out of you mind to CCW a Judge.

If the local gun-nut judges don't think a Judge is legit, y'all are screwed if you come before them trying to justify having one, let alone CCW with one.

Regards,
Brian in CA

halifax
06-20-2010, 12:46 AM
Yes, there are several ffl's in ca who have sold large numbers of Taurus judge firearms to law enforcement officers...

Any repercussions?

AJAX22
06-20-2010, 6:04 AM
I dont know enough to comment on repercussions.

pcesar
06-20-2010, 12:30 PM
Local gun loving Judge did not know that he could not get a Judge revolver? He had to be told by the Sheriff? Judges are not exempt from the DOJ roster so if he is a gun nut, he should have known he could not get a non rostered gun let alone a Judge revolver. Please correct me if I read your post wrong. If a Judge, who is suppose to be the all knowing about laws has to be told by the Sheriff that he could not own a certain type of firearms, then why should citizens be screwed to go before him? Sounds like this is a Judge I would like to go infront of.

>>>
Also considered an assault rifle/shotgun b/c of the cylindrical magazine (i.e like the famous street sweeper)
>>>

This is what the Superior Court judges in my county were told when they went to the Sheriff to see if they could get them. All the judges and retired judges I know (10?+) carry, and back in Nov I had a very interesting conversation about the Judge series with a couple of them. The P229 and the Kimber super-carry-zaptastic two of them had were part of the conversation, followed by "too bad we can't carry JUDGE'S!!!" I was a buzz kill because I offered that a 410 was a piss poor substitute for a real defensive cartridge and that you'd have to be out of you mind to CCW a Judge.

If the local gun-nut judges don't think a Judge is legit, y'all are screwed if you come before them trying to justify having one, let alone CCW with one.

Regards,
Brian in CA

CSACANNONEER
06-20-2010, 12:42 PM
Local gun loving Judge did not know that he could not get a Judge revolver? He had to be told by the Sheriff? Judges are not exempt from the DOJ roster so if he is a gun nut, he should have known he could not get a non rostered gun let alone a Judge revolver. Please correct me if I read your post wrong. If a Judge, who is suppose to be the all knowing about laws has to be told by the Sheriff that he could not own a certain type of firearms, then why should citizens be screwed to go before him? Sounds like this is a Judge I would like to go infront of.

Judges do not know every law. They do research when they need to. I'm sure that there is not one judge in this country who knows every law that pertains to their jurasidiction.

I had dinner with a Los Angeles Superior Court judge just over a month ago and, she asked me about getting a "Judge" for a CCW gun. Her son had recommended it to her. She felt that because he had served in Iraq, he must know what he is talking about. I educated her about California laws on this particular subject. She now knows better than to try to get one into Ca. It's not worth her carreer, pension, freedom, etc. Personally, I did not mind educating her or find it the least bit odd that she did not know much about it.