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View Full Version : getting guns directly back from a gunsmith?


mdades
11-02-2009, 3:08 PM
i have a legal problem. i want to get some gunsmithing done on
a few handguns and long guns, but my understanding of the law
is that although i can send the guns directly to a smith, they
cannot return them directly to me, but must send them to a ffl
holder. the problem with that is that i would have no way to get
the guns from the ffl holder. there are no ffl holders left in san
francisco as of 11/09. and, due to physical disabilities and
paratransit regulations, i cannot travel to the dealers in other
nearby cities- and even if it is legal, i cannot send any friends
or family to pick up, as i do not have any.

does anyone know if there is any sort of exemption that exists,
or if there is any sort of paperwork or special permission i can get
from the doj to enable me to do this?


thanks,

m ades

jazman
11-02-2009, 3:11 PM
You can send the guns to be worked on to the smith, and they can send them directly back to you.

Fjold
11-02-2009, 3:47 PM
You can send the guns to be worked on to the smith, and they can send them directly back to you.


Jazman is correct. You can send guns to a gunsmith or a manufacturer and they can send directly back to you without another FFL involved. I've done it many times.

troysland
11-02-2009, 3:51 PM
there are no ffl holders left in san
francisco as of 11/09.

thanks,

m ades

Have they been Outlawed? Or is this a new City Ordinance? :ban:

B Strong
11-02-2009, 3:54 PM
Have they been Outlawed? Or is this a new City Ordinance? :ban:

High Bridge is moving to San Bruno.

To the OP - a gunsmith or manufacturer can return your firearms directly to you after repair/modification.

I've done it for years here without any problems.

Maltese Falcon
11-02-2009, 3:56 PM
I had a new barrel installed on my Mini-30 by Accuracy Systems (AS) in Colorado last year. Fed-ex would not ship to them, Priority Overnight only, until they faxed their FFL permit to Fed-Ex.

However, on the return trip it came back direct to me (...and left on my front porch!!:eek:)

mdades
11-02-2009, 8:53 PM
are you sure about this? the last time i tried this, a few
years ago and then again about a year ago, i was told this was not the case. maybe the law got changed since then.

can anyone point me to the appropriate calif. or federal
law?

mdades
11-02-2009, 9:00 PM
High Bridge is moving to San Bruno.



yes. i picked up the compact 1911 (kimber ultra cdp II) on 10/28
from them, and since they and jackson arms are more than .5 miles away from the sf city line, i cannot use paratransit services direct
from san francisco, so i'm stuck with going to cow palace shows.

ke6guj
11-02-2009, 9:09 PM
are you sure about this? the last time i tried this, a few
years ago and then again about a year ago, i was told this was not the case. maybe the law got changed since then.

can anyone point me to the appropriate calif. or federal
law?

Federally your fine.

(I3) Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm? [Back]

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received.

[27 CFR 478.124(a)]

and the same applies with regards to CA.

How do I handle the paperwork when a purchaser returns a defective firearm?

If a firearm is brought to you for service or repair, you may return it to the person who submitted it for repair without undergoing the DROS process. If the firearm must be replaced, a new DROS is required. There is an exemption from the one-handgun-per-month restriction for exchanged handguns.

(PC section 12072 (a)(9)(xi))

Bruce
11-03-2009, 2:22 AM
are you sure about this? the last time i tried this, a few
years ago and then again about a year ago, i was told this was not the case. maybe the law got changed since then.

can anyone point me to the appropriate calif. or federal
law?


Who was it that told you you had to gop through an FFL?

Ross
11-03-2009, 7:03 AM
I'm in San Diego and sent a Ruger P90 to Ruger, via UPS. Ruger sent it back to my house via UPS.

Also, last year I sent a Sig back to Exeter. They returned it via FedEx, who allowed my 15 year old to sign for it even with the 2" "ADULT SIGNIATURE REQUIRED" on the shipping label side of the box.

So in short, yes, it is legal. Ask the gunsmith you are sending it too about how he/she will return it.

Glock22Fan
11-03-2009, 7:12 AM
I sent my 1911 to S&W for repair, UPS. It came back to me afterwards by UPS, to my door. No problem.

REH
11-03-2009, 7:26 AM
I think most of the problems are the shipping companies. They want a ffl copy of either the receiver or shipper. Mostly a CYA thing.

B Strong
11-03-2009, 7:53 AM
are you sure about this? the last time i tried this, a few
years ago and then again about a year ago, i was told this was not the case. maybe the law got changed since then.

can anyone point me to the appropriate calif. or federal
law?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_153_25/ai_75211978/

"Firearms shipping laws, in and of themselves, are surprisingly straightforward. According to Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the bureau of the Treasury Department that regulates the nation's firearms trade, they boil down to this:

1) You can't mail handguns. You must send them via a private carrier, such as UPS or FedEx.

2) You can send long guns-- rifles and shotguns-- via the Postal Service or a private shipper.

3) You are required to tell the shipper that there's a gun in the package.

4) Neither you nor the shippers can label or mark the package in any way or fashion as containing a gun.

5) You can send and receive gun parts with no restrictions. As long as the parts don't add up to a complete gun (or a receiver, which in the eyes of the law is a complete gun), you can send and receive a barrel, a firing pin, grips or other components in any manner your preferences and pocketbook dictate.

6) You can send a gun to any resident of your own state, whether or not that person is a federal licensee (gun dealer, manufacturer, collector, gunsmith or importer). Outside your state, you can send the gun only to a licensee. The instate/out-of-state distinction is made, an ATF spokesman says, because: "The Treasury Department's authority in these matters is derived from the interstate commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution." If a gun doesn't move across a state line, it's not interstate commerce.

7) Military and law-enforcement personnel acting in their official capacities have a slightly different set of laws to follow."

See also:

http://www.fega.com/members/batf.html

"SHIPPING FIREARMS

You may ship firearms through the U. S. Postal Service. Federal firearm licensees may deposit an unloaded firearm in the mails for conveyance to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U. S. C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties.

However, any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details. The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

A nonlicensee may ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

A signature is required each time a firearm is delivered by a shipper, or common or contract carrier to verify the acknowledgment of the receipt of the firearm. A signature of the FFL maintained on file by the shipper is not an acceptable alternative."

dfletcher
11-03-2009, 8:01 AM
I've shipped and had return about 5 guns in the last few months. Pretty much everything went off fine - mailing to a gunsmith/manufacturer and having it returned to you is allowed by law, including CA.

When I dropped off a rifle to UPS on San Bruno Ave they couldn't have cared less. I dropped off a rifle at FedEx - in San Francisco, there's a service station at Market and Sansome - and all they cared about was if it was going to a manufacturer. I said yes, they said "OK". Done.

Thompson/Center did the " per CA law we must return it to an FFL". I told them there is no such law, somehow they agreed and sent it back to me directly.

One FedEx store (on Marin Ave) asserted a rifle had to be sent overnight, so I went to UPS and they sent it ground.

I think the best thing to do is check with the gunsmith, ensure he'll ship back to you and you're fine. I'd presume the gunsmith ships out all the time and has his favored carrier.

KylaGWolf
11-03-2009, 8:28 AM
You can ship your gun via FedEx or UPS to the gunsmith to be worked on and the company can ship it back to you without any issues. I have to send my HK in for a look since it had a nasty malfunction. I asked them if I had to send it through an FFL or not. They said nope I can send it via UPS or FedEx. They said if they give you any hassle to let them know its going in for repair and then it should go through fine.

mdades
11-04-2009, 12:25 AM
Who was it that told you you had to gop through an FFL?

last year, it was the company that makes tru-ivory grips, that i
wanted for my ruger new vanquero. before that, every dealer in
sf that i bought from-

Dr Rockso
11-04-2009, 12:35 AM
last year, it was the company that makes tru-ivory grips, that i
wanted for my ruger new vanquero. before that, every dealer in
sf that i bought from-

There does have to be an FFL on one end of the transaction, so that would have been correct info if the grip manufacturer didn't have one.

fralysmo
11-04-2009, 3:25 AM
last year, it was the company that makes tru-ivory grips, that i
wanted for my ruger new vanquero. before that, every dealer in
sf that i bought from-

You can ship your gun via FedEx or UPS to the gunsmith to be worked on and the company can ship it back to you without any issues. I have to send my HK in for a look since it had a nasty malfunction. I asked them if I had to send it through an FFL or not.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-04-2009, 5:48 AM
You can ship your gun via FedEx or UPS to the gunsmith to be worked on and the company can ship it back to you without any issues. I have to send my HK in for a look since it had a nasty malfunction. I asked them if I had to send it through an FFL or not.


You can ship your gun via FedEx or UPS to the gunsmith to be worked on and the company can ship it back to you without any issues. I have to send my HK in for a look since it had a nasty malfunction. I asked them if I had to send it through an FFL or not.

It looks like our newest member Fralysmo is some kind of spam bot that has learned how to post on forums.

wash
11-05-2009, 6:59 AM
Just wondering, if you can't transport the guns outside of SF, where do you shoot them?

Liberty Rules
11-05-2009, 10:41 AM
On a related point, when shipping through UPS it is NOT ok to ship firearms through UPS Stores. Their terms of service used to allow it but they now prohibit it. Lest you tempt fate and try to sneak one past them at a UPS Store, keep reading...

You should know that UPS Store locations are just franchises run by regular folks. Many of them used to be Mailboxes, Etc. franchisees. They are not UPS employees. It would be like leaving your gun at the grocery store until their UPS driver came to pick it up.

Back when UPS permitted shipping through UPS Stores, I almost had a very bad experience. I shipped a rifle through a UPS Store location to myself in another state the day before I flew. When I got to my destination, I checked the tracking number online and it came back bad. I called UPS and they informed me that they had no responsibility whatsoever for my shipment because they had never picked it up from the franchisee. Even though I paid for the shipment and bought UPS' insurance, UPS claimed zero responsibility. Their name is on the door and I had a receipt with the UPS name! The security of my package at a UPS Store was entirely dependent on the competence and good character of the people working there. If it disappeared before UPS picked it up that night, they said I would have no recourse. What an eye opener.

The story had a happy ending. A Store employee screwed something up and cancelled the original shipping label. Rather than fixing it right away, they put it aside and there it sat for days until I called in a panic. They eventually shipped it and it arrived a week late.

Lesson learned. Never ship a firearm through a franchise location of a shipper such as UPS. Not only is it against their terms of service, but they disclaim any responsibility for it until they physically pick it up and log it in.

p.s. I'm not sure whether the same applies to FedEx but I'd be leery of the same.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-05-2009, 7:35 PM
Just wondering, if you can't transport the guns outside of SF, where do you shoot them?

Many people keep firearms for emergency use only.

KylaGWolf
11-05-2009, 8:18 PM
It looks like our newest member Fralysmo is some kind of spam bot that has learned how to post on forums.

LOL I guess I should be flattered that someone would do that. Oh and to the person that posted the information about the parts of a gun thanks. UPS told my other half that I could ship my gun if I took it all apart by ground and not have any hassles. They were wrong if I read it right on this forum. :) I may have to let them know when I ship the weapon out. I am pretty sure the gun will go out either Monday or Tuesday depending on if I make it to the bank on Saturday to get the money to ship it. As for shipping it out I am lucky my other half is a shipping coordinator for a company so he can send it from his work and have it sent back so I don't have to risk having it dumped on my doorstep. Which if the rest of the tenants had the brains to not prop open the gate it would be safe enough. But they seem to think that a security gate is more bother than not so its open for any of the dregs of the neighborhood to walk in and out of when they want. Which is part of the reason we have two guns loaded and ready to go at all times we are home.

mdades
11-05-2009, 10:04 PM
i called the doj firearms division- one said that i could not
get a direct shipment, the other said i could. i asked them
where i could find the relavant law. the first guy said in
12071, but it's so complex that i was not sure there was
anything there or not. the second agent said he did not
know, so i wrote a letter to the doj. the closest reg. i can
find is:

"12078."

"(e) Section 12071, subdivisions (c) and (d) of Section 12072, and subdivision (b) of Section 12801 shall not apply to the delivery of a firearm to a gunsmith for service or repair, or to the return of the firearm to its owner by the gunsmith. "

wash
11-06-2009, 8:12 AM
Many people keep firearms for emergency use only.
How is he going to know it works?

mdades
11-06-2009, 9:54 AM
Just wondering, if you can't transport the guns outside of SF, where do you shoot them?

i haven't, not in several years. i'm going to see if i can get a ramp
taxi driver to do me a favor, and take me all the way into south
san francisco and back, for a couple of hours at jackson arms.

mdades
11-06-2009, 9:58 AM
Many people keep firearms for emergency use only.

i keep a couple on hand for self-defense at home. i'd love to get a
ccw, but this is san francisco. the 30 others or so were bought
for my collection- just because i liked them.

wash
11-06-2009, 10:02 AM
Good luck with that.

mdades
11-06-2009, 10:07 AM
How is he going to know it works?

"she", actually. i'm going to try to take five of my newer guns to
the range to check on how bad the recoil is (keltec p3at .380acp,
keltec p32 .32acp, s&w 640 airlite sc .357mag, kahr pm9 9mm
luger), and the newest- kimber ultra cdpII 45acp, to do a break-in
and sight in the laser grips. i assume they all work... i've field
stripped them and made sure they worked with snap caps.

wash
11-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Oops, sorry.