PDA

View Full Version : .45 ACP & Mountain Lions & Black Bears


bubbagump
11-02-2009, 11:19 AM
I plan on carrying my 1911 on most of my hikes. I used to carry a 12 Gauge or .270, but the 1911 is handier, especially when carrying heavy loads or scrambling over structures.

I know .45 ACP is NOT the ideal caliber for Mountain Lions/Black Bears...but I'm honestly more worried about weight/compactness and "two-legged" critters.

So, if I had to use the .45 ACP on a Mountain Lion/Black Bear...what would be the BEST load for my 1911. Hand loading is not an option because I currently do not reload...so I have to settle for factory loads...what do you guys think?

Also, I will be open carrying the 1911. Does a thigh holster fly under the definition of 12025(f)?

Steyrlp10
11-02-2009, 11:29 AM
I like the 1911 in the .45, but for an animal as big as a bear... I think the hunters on this site will give you some great info. Me, I think anything other than a kill shot is going to just tick it off.

Friends of mine who like hunting wild boar with handguns used a .357 or larger.

Facing an animal with paws the size of frying pans just makes me stay outa their territory. And, that's why I stick to fishing bass and dozing in the sun :)

Snapping Twig
11-02-2009, 11:32 AM
Look at what Buffalo Bore and other specialty ammo suppliers have to offer.

Woefully inadequate, but useful in a pinch and possibly successful would be a 230g cast bullet with a large metplat at @ 900fps.

Seems like it's time for you to start reloading, that or buy a .44.

Mitch
11-02-2009, 11:35 AM
Facing an animal with paws the size of frying pans just makes me stay outa their territory.

Black bears (which is all the bears we have anymore in California, except for what's on the flag) are actually pretty harmless, for the most part.

Mountain lions are a different story, but every account of a mountain lion attack I have ever read suggested that they don't give their victims a lot of time to draw a bead before they strike. Luckily mountain lion attacks are very, very rare.

bubbagump
11-02-2009, 11:38 AM
I like the 1911 in the .45, but for an animal as big as a bear... I think the hunters on this site will give you some great info. Me, I think anything other than a kill shot is going to just tick it off.

Friends of mine who like hunting wild boar with handguns used a .357 or larger.

Facing an animal with paws the size of frying pans just makes me stay outa their territory. And, that's why I stick to fishing bass and dozing in the sun :)

I wonder if a head shot would even penetrate a bears skull...

bubbagump
11-02-2009, 11:39 AM
Look at what Buffalo Bore and other specialty ammo suppliers have to offer.

Woefully inadequate, but useful in a pinch and possibly successful would be a 230g cast bullet with a large metplat at @ 900fps.

Seems like it's time for you to start reloading, that or buy a .44.

I will check out buffalo bore. Thank You.

bubbagump
11-02-2009, 11:43 AM
Black bears (which is all the bears we have anymore in California, except for what's on the flag) are actually pretty harmless, for the most part.

Mountain lions are a different story, but every account of a mountain lion attack I have ever read suggested that they don't give their victims a lot of time to draw a bead before they strike. Luckily mountain lion attacks are very, very rare.

I'm pretty sure most black bears run away when they hear/smell/see you coming. Unless they're those bears that raid campgrounds...I heard those are persistent/brave. I'm thinking bear spray or loud noises would do the trick to scare most of them away.

Mountains lions worry me more than bears...

JDoe
11-02-2009, 11:44 AM
This guy (Les Jones) would go for something hot and non-hollow point.

If it were me I'd probably look at Speer 53654 (http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=53654) or a Buffalo Bore 230 grain FMJ FN (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=69).

When Handguns are Better Than Long Guns, Part 1 (http://www.lesjones.com/posts/002347.shtml)

I'd take the 45-70. I'd also take a handgun (Sorry to open up a whole 'nother can of worms). I've done quite a bit of research on bear attacks in Alaska.
It appears that there are a number of traits common in the successful repulsion of surprise bear attacks with a firearm:

1. The person had a gun. Seriously, the most important factor in surviving the attack was that the person had a gun they could reach instantly, i.e., in a holster, not propped up against a nearby tree, in the truck, in the cabin, etc.

2. The person had a handgun. Some of the attacks were repelled by one buddy with a handgun when the other buddy could not raise his longgun fast enough. This occurs more often than you would think.

3. Smaller calibers are effective. This is the one that shocked me. Although some of the successful folks used .44 mags or .45 LC's, a number of them used 9mm's and .40 cals (and some were using ball ammo). In one account in particular, two buddies were fishing. A brown bear charged one buddy so fast, he couldn't raise his shotgun to fire, so he threw it at the bear and dove into the water. His companion shot the bear with a 9mm pistol (ball ammo), and one of the shots broke the bear's shoulder. Once the bear was disabled, other fishermen joined in with their handguns and killed the bear.

4. The handgun appears to be effective because it is always there. The hunter/fisherman draws and shoots in an instant. The handgun might not kill the bear, but it often disables the bear sufficiently for the hunter/his companion to procure another handgun/long gun and then the bear is killed. Some locals have said "use the handgun to fight your way back to your rifle".

5. One last surprise. Urban legends aside, I found no documented evidence where an outdoorsman was able to shoot the bear (regardless of caliber) but was unable to repel the attack. There were some close calls, but nobody who got off a shot died. Not saying it hasn't happened, just saying I haven't seen it.

6. Final recommendation. If it were me, I'd bring something like a Glock/XD etc that is light enough to carry with me everywhere I go. I'd load something hot and non-hollow point.

Mitch
11-02-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm pretty sure most black bears run away when they hear/smell/see you coming. Unless they're those bears that raid campgrounds...I heard those are persistent/brave.

Those have learned not to fear humans. But generally they are unlikely to otherwise bother anyone if they are left alone. Just a bit of property damage.

This is learned behavior. Until recently, the bears of the San Gorgonio Wilderness avoided backpackers and their campsites. But now there are some very active bears along the Vivian Creek trail, so active the trail was closed for most of this summer and a couple of trail camps are still closed.

But elsewhere in the Wilderness Area the bears have yet to associate campers with food. Twice in the last few months I have seen bear tracks suggesting bears have come into our camps to investigate during the night, but left pretty quickly once they realized there were people sleeping nearby. In once case, a small bear was sniffing around a kitchen area where we had left dirty dishes (too much wine that night). The bear didn't touch anything before leaving. I think he was just curious.

We use bearproof food containers so that the bears (outside the Vivian Creek area) never learn to associate hikers with food. Once they make that connection it's all over.

Scoutout
11-02-2009, 11:55 AM
If it must be a 1911, I would load up on +p 230 gr. FMJs and keep my eyes open for a gently used sp101 in .357.

Lapietra
11-02-2009, 12:13 PM
When I am fishing or hunting, I bring my G32 .357 sig. When I am hiking I have a small light weight five shot 357 mag. If I was to carry a .45 I would go with 230 gr FMJ.

Snapping Twig
11-02-2009, 12:36 PM
As an animal ages they slow down and can no longer successfully gather prey. Mountain lions are no different here.

Mountain lion attacks are purposley overlooked and covered up - there IS an agenda at play here.

I have encountered them and was tracked by a nasty one in particular - won't say what happened, but it's no longer tracking hunters.

My former BIL was attacked by one - he shot it as it leapt at him.

Bears with cubs are probably the most feared animal to run across, but by and large, bears avoid us. Had a run-in with a sow and 3 cubs, but all ended well, no one was harmed. Bears don't worry me overtly. Respect them and give them a wide berth.

Mountain lions - not so much. If you see one, you're on the menu.

A fine expose on this is found in Western Outdoor News, Vloume 52, Number 28, July 9, 2004

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/img121.jpg

An excerpt:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/img122.jpg

odysseus
11-02-2009, 12:41 PM
Mountain lion attacks are purposley overlooked and covered up - there IS an agenda at play here.


I haven't any proof of that myself, but I have also felt this way as well. The attacks when reported are pretty bad; you have to fight to live.

Mitch
11-02-2009, 1:12 PM
Mountain lion attacks are purposley overlooked and covered up - there IS an agenda at play here.

Who's behind the agenda, developers? The only reason mountain lion attacks have become more common is because of loss of habitat due to development.

ElDiabloRobotico
11-02-2009, 1:13 PM
Mountain lion attacks are purposely overlooked and covered up - there IS an agenda at play here.

interesting. this is the first i've heard of this. what do think the reasons are for the cover up?

bubbagump
11-02-2009, 1:18 PM
Wow...so if the mountain lion doesn't actually touch you, its not considered an attack?

What steps should be taken AFTER you shoot a black bear/mountain lion? Does it need to be reported to the DFG? FS? Local LEA?

Snapping Twig
11-02-2009, 1:53 PM
Who's behind the agenda, developers? The only reason mountain lion attacks have become more common is because of loss of habitat due to development.

Personally I believe it's the eco people, those that reintroduce the wolf, etc.

The have a strangle hold on our government agencies at this time.

No lead bullets in condor country in spite of the fact that the studies didn't support it, vast areas of the coast off limits to fishing with the MLPA, etc.

If the forrests are dangerous and you're not allowed to fight back, you'll stay out of them, so goes my theory.

There's an agenda afoot and it doesn't favor the citizens.

Snapping Twig
11-02-2009, 1:56 PM
Wow...so if the mountain lion doesn't actually touch you, its not considered an attack?

What steps should be taken AFTER you shoot a black bear/mountain lion? Does it need to be reported to the DFG? FS? Local LEA?

The correct approach is to contact DFG & law enforcement. You'll receive a serious rectal exam and quite possibly face charges as it's and eco no no.

Some would suggest SSS.

lewdogg21
11-02-2009, 2:04 PM
I wonder if a head shot would even penetrate a bears skull...

Of course it would. They aren't Armour plated humvee's with legs.

Super Spy
11-02-2009, 2:13 PM
One more reason to buy a Glock 20

Quiet
11-02-2009, 2:17 PM
.45ACP will take out a mountain lion.

Mitch
11-02-2009, 2:33 PM
Personally I believe it's the eco people, those that reintroduce the wolf, etc.

. . .

If the forrests are dangerous and you're not allowed to fight back, you'll stay out of them, so goes my theory.

There's an agenda afoot and it doesn't favor the citizens.

Well, that doesn't make much sense to me. Any "eco people" will tell you mountain lion encounters are more common now because of loss of habitat, and so the "eco people" would have no reason to minimize the number of encounters.

Now those people responsible for, say, building subdivisions high on the slopes of the Santa Ana Mountains, they sure would have a reason to sweep mountain lion attacks under the rug, especially when they are happening more and more in the Cleveland National Forest right next door.

And those people have a lot more money than the "eco people."

redcliff
11-02-2009, 3:16 PM
Well, that doesn't make much sense to me. Any "eco people" will tell you mountain lion encounters are more common now because of loss of habitat, and so the "eco people" would have no reason to minimize the number of encounters.

Now those people responsible for, say, building subdivisions high on the slopes of the Santa Ana Mountains, they sure would have a reason to sweep mountain lion attacks under the rug, especially when they are happening more and more in the Cleveland National Forest right next door.

And those people have a lot more money than the "eco people."

It's not the developer's; as a former developer I can assure you that DFG and the real estate developers have entirely different agenda's and priorities. Don't get me started on raptor studies, fencing requirements to allow for wild animal migration and stream crossing permits to put a culvert in a drainage ditch.

I think the reason DFG doesn't report them is because they'd be pressured to open up a hunting season on Mountain Lions if they did.

JaMail
11-02-2009, 3:46 PM
if you cap a bear or mountain lion, take your chances and report it, otherwise your an illegal hunter, whos ballistics are now in a database (citation needed) and they are interviewing and asking all the anti's if htey saw anyone in the area with a gun

DarkHorse
11-02-2009, 3:49 PM
As an animal ages they slow down and can no longer successfully gather prey. Mountain lions are no different here.

Mountain lion attacks are purposley overlooked and covered up - there IS an agenda at play here.

I have encountered them and was tracked by a nasty one in particular - won't say what happened, but it's no longer tracking hunters.

My former BIL was attacked by one - he shot it as it leapt at him.

Bears with cubs are probably the most feared animal to run across, but by and large, bears avoid us. Had a run-in with a sow and 3 cubs, but all ended well, no one was harmed. Bears don't worry me overtly. Respect them and give them a wide berth.

Mountain lions - not so much. If you see one, you're on the menu.

A fine expose on this is found in Western Outdoor News, Vloume 52, Number 28, July 9, 2004

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/img121.jpg

An excerpt:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/img122.jpg

:threadjacked:

I'd personaly stay away from hollow-point bullets. You'll want as much penetration as possible. Buffalo Bore does indeed make some hot ammo. Also, I'd only use it in a steel-framed gun. The 0.5 lb you save with an alloy frame may not be worth a busted pistol...

If you want to stay in the 1911 arena, you could always upgrade to a 10mm or .460 Rowland top end. You wouldn't really lose anything, WRT capacity/weight, but you'd gain more ft-lbs.

A thigh rig seems like it would be fine, unless you wear a trench coat or snow pants overtop of it. After all, the holster is still attached to the belt in some way, right?

Brujo
11-02-2009, 4:12 PM
...you are not familiar enough with california fauna and most likely will be making too much noise to ever see a bear much less a mountain lion.

Both are completely harmless. Consider your self lucky to see either. You might as well be asking the question "I'm going tuna fishing which caliber do I need to kill a great white shark?" Great bar discussion but of little practical value.

I grew up in the sierras, I can not even remember last time I've heard of a bear attacking someone (that is someone not trying to feed it). As far as the pumas go you are lucky to even see one, almost all attacks have been a jogger or biker while moving from behind.

There is only one dangerous animal in all of California...primates! If you plan for the eventual run in with a primate you will be more then prepared for anything else you come across.

DarkHorse
11-02-2009, 4:17 PM
...you are not familiar enough with california fauna and most likely will be making too much noise to ever see a bear much less a mountain lion.

Both are completely harmless. Consider your self lucky to see either. You might as well be asking the question "I'm going tuna fishing which caliber do I need to kill a great white shark?" Great bar discussion but of little practical value.

I grew up in the sierras, I can not even remember last time I've heard of a bear attacking someone (that is someone not trying to feed it). As far as the pumas go you are lucky to even see one, almost all attacks have been a jogger or biker while moving from behind.

There is only one dangerous animal in all of California...primates! If you plan for the eventual run in with a primate you will be more then prepared for anything else you come across.

So are stingrays. Just ask Steve Irwin.

Famous last words...

Mitch
11-02-2009, 4:33 PM
I grew up in the sierras, I can not even remember last time I've heard of a bear attacking someone (that is someone not trying to feed it). As far as the pumas go you are lucky to even see one, almost all attacks have been a jogger or biker while moving from behind.

There is only one dangerous animal in all of California...primates! If you plan for the eventual run in with a primate you will be more then prepared for anything else you come across.

I give backpacking seminars and I usually tell people there are only two dangerous animals to worry about: rattlesnakes and ticks.

As you said, black bears are timid and pretty harmless. They do not attack people, just tents containing improperly stored food.

Mountain lions are a different issue, at least nowadays. Mountain lion attacks are more common now than they were twenty years ago. But they remain rare enough it's a bit like worrying about lightning striking, especially as cats don't give you much warning before they attack, making guns pretty useless against them.

Guns are heavy to carry and backcountry risks minimal, so I have never felt the need or desire to hike armed, and I'm out there almost every weekend.

But people need to do whatever makes them feel comfortable.

gabe123
11-02-2009, 5:02 PM
Black bear or mountain lion? if you have a .45, anything would do. You can go for heart, or head shot. I suggest the heart if you plan to have an open casket. :43::43::chris::D

All kidding aside, I agree with people that black bear is less likely to attack. Big cat will jump you before you even know it. Going in group of 2 or 3 would be much better than being alone with a 45.

7x57
11-02-2009, 5:18 PM
The only reason mountain lion attacks have become more common is because of loss of habitat due to development.

Not true. The population has been increasing since hunting was stopped, and the young lions get pushed further and further looking for unoccupied territory. We're not just moving toward them--they're moving toward us.

7x57

7x57
11-02-2009, 5:21 PM
Of course it would. They aren't Armour plated humvee's with legs.

Actually, they are essentially "armor plated humvees with legs." Well, anyway, a bear skull has a nasty reputation for deflecting bullets that don't hit square on.

I have been carrying a 1911 while hunting, and if forced to shoot at a bear I would probably not shoot the head if given a choice.

7x57

smle-man
11-02-2009, 5:54 PM
I would carry my 1006 10mm with 180gr FMJFP rounds if I thought there was a threat. A word of caution carrying a rifle while hiking - you may be viewed as a poacher by fish and game. This is one time when a handgun is probably more appropriate than a rifle when in the wild.

darkshier
11-02-2009, 6:21 PM
I give backpacking seminars and I usually tell people there are only two dangerous animals to worry about: rattlesnakes and ticks.

As you said, black bears are timid and pretty harmless. They do not attack people, just tents containing improperly stored food.

Mountain lions are a different issue, at least nowadays. Mountain lion attacks are more common now than they were twenty years ago. But they remain rare enough it's a bit like worrying about lightning striking, especially as cats don't give you much warning before they attack, making guns pretty useless against them.

Guns are heavy to carry and backcountry risks minimal, so I have never felt the need or desire to hike armed, and I'm out there almost every weekend.

But people need to do whatever makes them feel comfortable.

While I have not ran into any Rattlesnakes on my hikes throughout CA, I have ran into plenty of other non-poisonous snakes and PLENTY of ticks. Definitely agree that those are the 2 to watch out for. Don't forget to tuck your pant legs into your socks out in the back country people.

Black bear or mountain lion? if you have a .45, anything would do. You can go for heart, or head shot. I suggest the heart if you plan to have an open casket. :43::43::chris::D

All kidding aside, I agree with people that black bear is less likely to attack. Big cat will jump you before you even know it. Going in group of 2 or 3 would be much better than being alone with a 45.

That is easily the best advice in the thread. A bear or a mountain lion will hear a group of 3 coming from a while away and 99% of the time, stay the hell away from you. With regards to the .45 stopping either animal, it's definitively better than nothing. I carry a XD. 45 when I go backpacking and I feel safe with it. Anywhere outside of CA, where the animals get bigger, .45 just isn't going to cut it.

Snapping Twig
11-02-2009, 6:56 PM
Well, that doesn't make much sense to me. Any "eco people" will tell you mountain lion encounters are more common now because of loss of habitat, and so the "eco people" would have no reason to minimize the number of encounters.

Now those people responsible for, say, building subdivisions high on the slopes of the Santa Ana Mountains, they sure would have a reason to sweep mountain lion attacks under the rug, especially when they are happening more and more in the Cleveland National Forest right next door.

And those people have a lot more money than the "eco people."

Ask yourself how many developers there are and then compare that to the number of people riding the eco train.

Strength through numbers.

And as was said, we're not encroaching on them, they're overpopulating and coming to us.

Bring back the lion hunts!

7x57
11-02-2009, 7:23 PM
While I have not ran into any Rattlesnakes on my hikes throughout CA, I have ran into plenty of other non-poisonous snakes and PLENTY of ticks.


I've encountered two rattlers in California. One crossed the path maybe ten feet in front of me and my dog in the very heavily trafficked Eaton canyon. My wife and I were warned off by one most of the way up Strawberry peak in a rockpile 50 feet feet away.

Notice the difference--the one in Eaton canyon ignored me and a dog almost within striking distance, while the one up Strawberry gave a clear warning at distance. The ones habituated to people are dangerous, because by the time they are alarmed it's too late.

BTW, snakes are what .44 mag shotshells are for. :D


That is easily the best advice in the thread. A bear or a mountain lion will hear a group of 3 coming from a while away and 99% of the time, stay the hell away from you.


Indeed, and if you aren't running you don't trigger the prey instinct. The buddy system is always the best insurance. But not everyone hikes in a group, and not everyone likes to be noisy. Scares all the animals, for one thing, not just the predators.

One carries in the outback for the same reason one would carry in the city--safety equipment for a rare, but life-threatening event. With a bit of luck, you'll never have to use either.


Anywhere outside of CA, where the animals get bigger, .45 just isn't going to cut it.

I'd say .44 mag is the single most flexible cartridge for outdoor use. It's shotshells are big enough to be great snake medicine, and it can be loaded hot enough for big animals. Garrett's Hammerheads seem to have a good reputation on brown bears, for example. I used to think they were pricey, but frankly they're not more pricey than loaded non-lead ammo for the condor zone. :willy_nilly:

7x57

five.five-six
11-02-2009, 7:28 PM
So, if I had to use the .45 ACP on a Mountain Lion/Black Bear...what would be the BEST load for my 1911.


IMO you might want to bring some A1 sauce and sprinkle it on yourself, the bear may find you tastier



try a .44 magnum or at least a .357 magnum, you need a deep penetrator to get past all the fat on a bear

sv_1
11-02-2009, 7:34 PM
I'll admit to carrying an inadequately sized handgun while wandering through the forest because it made me feel better. But I'll tell ya, when I spooked that bear it was the last thing on my mind. I was looking for the TP!

The only mountain lion I've seen was while mountain biking, we came up behind it in a big hurry and I swear that thing jumped 6' in the air right up the bank. I'd hate to be on the business end of one of those animals unprepared.

7x57
11-02-2009, 7:51 PM
nick must not have seen this thread or he's already have pointed out that in California the best reason to carry a sidearm while hiking is pot farmers. While I also plan to avoid them and get out of Dodge if I fail to do that, I like having the option of, at a minimum, encouraging someone to keep their head down while I beat feet.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned coyotes yet, in the wake of the recent fatal coyote attack on some singer or the other (I think it was). I've never felt in the least bit threatened by coyotes, but I'd shoot sooner rather than later if one showed unusual interest in me.

7x57

Rob454
11-02-2009, 8:00 PM
Ive gone hunting and had a black bear about 30 feet away from me and he just went on his way. I have never had a black bear come at me or threaten me in any way. Not saying it cant happen. Ive been hunting all my life. IF I were to get attacked by a black bear I woudl try and take care if it. I could care less if F&G had to be brought in. Same with a cougar. In all my years hunting Ive seen cougar tracks a lot been stalked once ( a few shots aimed in the general location finally took care of it coming near me) Saw one crossing a trail. More liek a tawny blur and holy crap that was a cougar.
There are places where bears associate humans with food, and cougars have attacked people. Reason there are so many cougar attacks is one we are building homes where they live, there is no hunting of cougars in the state and hasnt been for what 30 years or so? maybe 40? A adult cougar requires about 50 square miles of territory to support itself ( or thereabout) so with the overpopulation and with people moving in cougar hunting grounds cougars find pets small children and small stature people as easy prey so its just logical that they attack. Until this state gets its collective head out of its azz be prepared for more attacks.

Personally I feel a 45 is ok with the right loads but a 357 or 44 would be a better choice. As for head penetration I really have no idea. next black bear I see Ill stop and ask

diginit
11-02-2009, 8:31 PM
A .45 will take out a cougar, I have my doubt's with a bear. I was hiking a local trail, unarmed because it is a state park, when I heard something behind me, To the right. I turned to see a female cougar on top of a 15' cilff. Just above me, I yelled "Don't even think about it. You Fk'n cat!" While I was picking up a rock. She turned and ran away. I was also hiking off trail in the same area a month later and heard, "Mew, Mew, Mew," I knew I was waaay was too close to the den, so I left the area. They were here long before we were. You have to respect that. But if you show no fear, A cougar will run rather than attack. Unless you are caught offguard as is the usual prey..

jumbopanda
11-02-2009, 9:29 PM
230gr ball to the head would probably take down a bear, but it would have to be a near perfect shot. I'd suggest something with a little more power just to be safe.

Mitch
11-03-2009, 5:31 AM
We're not just moving toward them--they're moving toward us.

WTF? And you're posting from Pasadena? When was the last time you went outside in Orange County or the San Gabriel Valley? I have been here for over 40 years and I assure you, mountain lion habitat has been gobbled up at an incredible rate. There are cities in the foothills of the Santa Ana mountains that didn't even exist 25 years ago. You don't think that has an impact?

Plus there are a hell of a lot more people wandering the coastal mountains than there were 30 years ago, when Orange County was a backwater.

By contrast, in the wilderness areas of the San Bernardino Mountains, where I spend most of my weekends, and which (being National Forest) have not been subject to much encroachment, mountain lion encounters are no more common now than they have ever been. It's still extremely rare to see a mountain lion up there. Ditto most of the San Gabriels, though the Station Fire might change things a bit now.

Mitch
11-03-2009, 5:45 AM
While I have not ran into any Rattlesnakes on my hikes throughout CA, I have ran into plenty of other non-poisonous snakes and PLENTY of ticks.

You'll see lots of rattlesnakes eventually if you do much backcountry hiking in SoCal. They can be dangerous, if you aren't paying attention to where you are walking, but they are otherwise harmless. Most of the time they are eager enough to get out of your way. Most of the time.

This summer a four-foot snake appeared some six feet way on an embankment at about elbow level in front of a buddy who was backpacking in front of me just below Icehouse Saddle in the Cucamonga Wilderness. It started rattling immediately and scared the hell out of my buddy, who is from Ohio and had never seen a rattler before. He fell back and the weight of his pack caused him to tip backwards into some manzanita. The dude behind me said all he saw were a pair of feet in the air. The snake crossed the trail and got out of there in a hurry.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2644/3782152877_e73337d23c.jpg

Since my buddy could have sustained a nasty injury from his fall, you get an idea of how dangerous these creatures can be.

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 6:33 AM
If you have a walking stick then Rattlesnakes shouldn't be an issue. I don't reccomend doing this but I used to catch them all the time. Yes i've held them and NO I do not suggest doing what I have in the past. *
Rattlers can only strike half their body distance, if your walking stick is 4-5 feet long you man motivate them to move, with out harming you or them.

Bears generally will leave you alone unless it's mama bear. Mt. Lions are another issue.
Because of the nature in which they hunt, chances are you'll have no idea untill they make their pounce. Carry a good field knife that you can get out quick. A hatchet or tomahawk is great PPE for attack also. If you can get a gun
out I think any "man stopper" will be more than enough to stop a big cat. You don't really need to go for the biggest gun thats possible to kill a Mt. lion.

If you can shoot a 9mm better than a 45 acp, and good hit on target will be better that a big gun missing. Remember Mt lions are the size of a small to medium sized person. 75-145lbs is generally the size range you'll see.

Whatever you do please don't run. That will provoke an attack and you will lose. While they are smaller than Tigers they are powerful. Have you ever pissed off a house cat and been left bleeding, well X that by 10 times.

I had a Bobcat for a pet and I know first hand what a wild animal is capable of. My Bobcat was pretty tame but there was flashes of what he could do if he wanted. I'll still say the Glock 20 is the best all around your (animal here) stopper.
Especially if fully loaded with Gene Hoffman tipped projectiles........I heard those have been tested on T-72 Russain Tanks.....with awsome results.



* Yes some have said i'm half nuts...I only agree with that half the time.

berg
11-03-2009, 11:47 AM
This thread motivated me to do some googling:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/04/05/urbananimal.DTL


Should Mountain Lions Be Hunted in California?
by Hank Pellissier, special to SF Gate
Monday, April 5, 2004

Mountain lions -- also called pumas and cougars -- are hunted for sport in almost every western state except California, where they are a protected species. Our Californian compassion is not reciprocated, however: The big cats occasionally stalk, slay and eat people. Most recently, on Jan. 8 in Orange County, 35-year-old Mark Reynolds was killed and partially devoured by a 110-pound mountain lion that later dragged 30-year-old Anne Hjelle by the head into the shrubbery before bicyclists rescued her. Are cougars becoming too populous and aggressive? Bill Karr, editor of The Western Outdoor News, believes we should resume hunting the predatory panther.

Hi, Bill. How long has it been illegal to hunt mountain lions in California?
Ever since 1990, when the general public was dumb enough to pass Proposition 117, which gave mountain lions the same protections as threatened or endangered species. Mountain lions are California's largest and most dangerous carnivore, and they have kittens every year, so their numbers are rapidly increasing. Contrary to what you might hear, human beings are not moving into mountain-lion territory -- the mountain lion is moving into our territory.

I have gotten abut 1,000 letters in the last 10 years reporting on mountain-lion sightings inside towns and cities. There was one found inside the Fresno city limits, for example. And, two weeks ago, in Clear Lake, a guy killed a mountain lion on his back porch -- it had its paws on his pet cat. The mountain lion had walked between two other houses to get to his porch. Mountain lions are everywhere in the state -- sightings are more and more frequent. We're not hunting them, we're not chasing them with dogs and they're losing their fear of us.

Where do you live?

I live in Placerville. It is mountain-lion country. We have them walking around town. My mother-in-law was sitting in Marshall Hospital, where she's the pink- lady receptionist, and a mountain lion came by and opened the automatic doors! Around here, mountain lions live in Gold Bug Park and along the Auburn Lakes Trail. A mountain lion killed Barbara Schoener just 10 miles down the road from me in 1994. It was a small mountain lion, just 70 pounds. It knocked Barbara down, then Barbara got up and ran about 10 to 15 feet before the mountain lion attacked her again. It killed her, and then it ate through her back so it could eat her soft, internal organs, and then it tried to cover her up with leaves.

Only 70 pounds? Mountain lions must be very strong.

They can leap 30 feet. They can kill a 700-pound elk. They have great eyesight, great sense of smell and great hearing and they are very private -- they are superb at stalking and not being seen. They are very hard to see, and they generally don't like to be seen, so, if you do see one, you're in danger. It may be looking at you as a meal. But most attacks are from the back. The victim never sees the lion until it is on them.

Mountain lions mostly eat deer, right?

Yes. Deer are their primary food source. Do you remember eight to 10 years ago, a herd of about 15 deer was removed from an East Bay park and relocated? Every one of those deer was eaten by a mountain lion in less than a month. The whole herd was wiped out.

Mountain lions also kill and eat lots of cats and dogs. Every time you see a sign in a rural area that a dog or cat is missing, you can bet that a mountain lion got it. They also eat cattle and a lot of sheep. A mother mountain lion in El Dorado County killed 40 sheep just teaching her kittens how to kill. They didn't eat the sheep -- they were just practicing. Mountain lions play with their food, like pet cats do.

Are there any other states where it is illegal to hunt mountain lions?

I believe Oregon voters made it illegal to hunt mountain lions with hounds in their state a few years ago . In California, I don't know if hunting mountain lions will ever be legal again. [B]A lot of people think like Lynn Sadler of the Mountain Lion Foundation. She has a point of view that's the opposite of mine -- the crybaby, whining, fuzzy, hug-'em-and-love-'em point of view.

Do you want mountain lions to be hunted as varmints -- meaning all year, without limits -- or do you want them hunted in a particular season?

Hmm. Good question. Well, mountain lions are not as prolific as coyotes, which are varmints, so hunting mountain lions should be regulated to just where they are proliferating, with a quota. But we definitely need to have seasons when we can hunt them, to put fear into them. Right now, the U.S. Department of Fish and Game [DFG] has no funds to study mountain lions -- it has no statistics or facts. What the state needs to do is sell hunting licenses. This would garner money for Fish & Game to study their population.

An example of this inefficient policy is in 1999. The Sierra Nevada bighorn-sheep population, which resides from Lone Pine to Bishop, was decimated down to about 100 animals. A law was passed that permitted the DFG to kill any mountain lion that threatened the sheep. So, then we had to radio collar mountain lions and radio collar bighorn sheep and keep track of them all and then pay DFG to kill or remove the threatening mountain lions, all at a high cost to taxpayers, instead of the state just making money by issuing mountain-lion-hunting licenses. Common sense dictates that you manage species of animals, but we are not managing mountain lions.

Do people in rural areas live in fear of mountain lions? Has it hampered their quality of life?

We're very cautious. It has become part of our daily pattern. Of course, the DFG just advises us to "modify human behavior" by bringing in our pets at night, or installing motion-reacting outdoor lighting, for example. That's not wildlife management -- that's human management, and it doesn't make any sense. They want people to just accept that we must live in fear while we're outdoors.

I've talked to people who have mountain lions crossing their yards every day, so of course they simply don't let their kids play outside in the early morning.

Why not the early morning?

Mountain lions are nocturnal. They hunt for food at night. But if they don't get anything -- if they're still hungry -- they extend their hunting hours. City people just don't understand the problem.

A detailed record of mountain lion attacks in the United States and Canada is listed here. Additional information about mountain lions is available at the U.S. Department of Fish & Game's Web site.

Hank Pellissier a.k.a. Hank Hyena has been a columnist for Salon.com ("Naked World"), SFGate ("Odd Barkings"), the S.F. Metropolitan ("Frisco Utopia") and the New Mission News ("Civic Stench"). He's also executive director of the Hyena Comedy Institute and co-director of a preschool called The Children's Lab.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/04/05/urbananimal.DTL

a1c
11-03-2009, 12:08 PM
Yup, it's all about habitat.

In our area, lions are reported mostly in developments that didn't exist 5 or 10 years ago. One recently grabbed a cat off someone's porch in broad daylight. Where was that? On some mountain slope that didn't have a single house on it just a decade ago. Ironically, only about half the houses in that development are inhabited nowadays - they're either vacation homes or in foreclosure.

Lions generally follow deer. And those are being displaced by agriculture and commercial and residential developments. Lots of remote areas in my county have been converted to vineyards over the past few years. And in residential areas, people plant deer-friendly flowers and trees instead of native deer-resistant plants, attracting them, and attracting in turn mountain lions.

A friend found a bear in his vineyard last year. That vineyard didn't exist four years ago. It's in a remote valley that has never been developed until his father bought it a decade ago and started ranching. It's not like the bear decided to explore the area - he was already established there.

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:21 PM
if you cap a bear or mountain lion, take your chances and report it, otherwise your an illegal hunter, whos ballistics are now in a database (citation needed) and they are interviewing and asking all the anti's if htey saw anyone in the area with a gun

I would tell the DFG. If they charged me for killing a dangerous animal then I would fight it in court. Why the hell would I report it if I was poaching? That doesn't make sense...then again I live in California:rolleyes:

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:23 PM
:threadjacked:

I'd personaly stay away from hollow-point bullets. You'll want as much penetration as possible. Buffalo Bore does indeed make some hot ammo. Also, I'd only use it in a steel-framed gun. The 0.5 lb you save with an alloy frame may not be worth a busted pistol...

If you want to stay in the 1911 arena, you could always upgrade to a 10mm or .460 Rowland top end. You wouldn't really lose anything, WRT capacity/weight, but you'd gain more ft-lbs.

A thigh rig seems like it would be fine, unless you wear a trench coat or snow pants overtop of it. After all, the holster is still attached to the belt in some way, right?

I figure it would fly. Its way more comfortable carrying it that way. And if I put on a sweater or jacket I don't have to worry about it covering the holster.

robairto
11-03-2009, 6:32 PM
I have faced bears and meth cookers on my property in Oroville and always carry a .357 4" 66 or a 5" 629. The 629 was pulled on two losers who rerouted themselves and their attitudes elsewhere. I like the .357 as it does all the stuff and works as a good coyote round as well. I dropped a coyote at 60 yds with it. I think revolver when I hunt or need protection in the woods.

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:32 PM
...you are not familiar enough with california fauna and most likely will be making too much noise to ever see a bear much less a mountain lion.

Both are completely harmless. Consider your self lucky to see either. You might as well be asking the question "I'm going tuna fishing which caliber do I need to kill a great white shark?" Great bar discussion but of little practical value.

I grew up in the sierras, I can not even remember last time I've heard of a bear attacking someone (that is someone not trying to feed it). As far as the pumas go you are lucky to even see one, almost all attacks have been a jogger or biker while moving from behind.

There is only one dangerous animal in all of California...primates! If you plan for the eventual run in with a primate you will be more then prepared for anything else you come across.

I've seen bears up close while hiking. I didn't feel uncomfortable and neither did the bear. I respected him. He respected me. We both went are separate ways. I didn't feel a need to spray or shoot the bear. BUT...if the situation would have went down hill...I was ready...

http://i36.tinypic.com/35bvvoy.jpg
This is the picture my hiking buddy took of the bear...we were hiking in your area

I know plenty of people who have seen mountain lions in the Angeles National Forest. I guess NOT seeing the mountain lions is what worries me. And even if I have a small chance of surviving an attack...I'd love to have a chance. And if a firearm gives me a better chance of surviving an attack...then I will carry.

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:34 PM
So are stingrays. Just ask Steve Irwin.

Famous last words...

+1...

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:34 PM
Actually, they are essentially "armor plated humvees with legs." Well, anyway, a bear skull has a nasty reputation for deflecting bullets that don't hit square on.

I have been carrying a 1911 while hunting, and if forced to shoot at a bear I would probably not shoot the head if given a choice.

7x57

Where would you shoot it?

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:35 PM
IMO you might want to bring some A1 sauce and sprinkle it on yourself, the bear may find you tastier



try a .44 magnum or at least a .357 magnum, you need a deep penetrator to get past all the fat on a bear

I'm tasty without the A1 sauce ;)

bubbagump
11-03-2009, 6:39 PM
Here's a pretty cool picture I took of a snake I was swimming with...he pulled that little fish out of the water and started eating it...

http://i34.tinypic.com/f05efd.jpg

Chris M
11-03-2009, 6:52 PM
The only reason mountain lion attacks have become more common is because of loss of habitat due to development.

That certainly plays a part, but that's not the ONLY reason. Lack of legal hunting is also to blame. No hunting = no reason to fear man = more attacks.

Very similar to the reason that there's now a wolf hunting season in Montana and surrounding states.

darkshier
11-03-2009, 8:46 PM
Couple of snakes I have ran into.....

http://i37.tinypic.com/2airj2t.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/rkzrrp.jpg

Mitch
11-04-2009, 6:16 AM
I would tell the DFG. If they charged me for killing a dangerous animal then I would fight it in court. Why the hell would I report it if I was poaching? That doesn't make sense...then again I live in California:rolleyes:

Of course, if you are in the right and defending yourself from an immediate threat, report it.

This asshat was not in the right:

http://news.sierrawave.net/eastern-sierra-news/2531-visitor-shoots-bear-in-the-lakes-basin

http://news.sierrawave.net/eastern-sierra-news/2554-police-chief-says-charges-expected-in-bear-killing

Chris M
11-04-2009, 6:37 AM
This asshat was not in the right:

http://news.sierrawave.net/eastern-sierra-news/2531-visitor-shoots-bear-in-the-lakes-basin

From that article:

In 2006, a bow hunter with a tag shot and killed a bear next to Lake Mary. He was charged with discharging a firearm inside the limits of the Town of Mammoth, shooting from a road, and shooting within 150 feet of an occupied residence. :confused:

I understand that some bow hunters may carry a side-arm if it's not Archery Only season...but the only reason to do so is for self defense.

robairto
11-04-2009, 6:51 AM
Here's a pretty cool picture I took of a snake I was swimming with...he pulled that little fish out of the water and started eating it...

http://i34.tinypic.com/f05efd.jpg

Where was this pic taken and who knows what kind of snake this is?

cineski
11-04-2009, 8:32 AM
Drag it out and bring it to a taxidermist. Mount in a prominent position near your front window. Take pictures and post it on Facebook and Myspace.;)


What steps should be taken AFTER you shoot a black bear/mountain lion? Does it need to be reported to the DFG? FS? Local LEA?

cineski
11-04-2009, 8:53 AM
All wild animals are capable of horrific effects on humans. Heck, a female singer was just killed by 2 coyotes in Canada. And Mountain Lions do exist in close quarters around LA. My buddy was hiking alone in the Verdugo Hills (surrounded heavily by homes) and a full grown mountain lion crossed the path 100 feet in front of him. I've only seen their tracks. In terms of an attack, you'll never see it coming. They come from the rear, very quickly and with a lot of force. A buddy with a gun aside, the best protection is a knife at this point. One that's easy to get to (like on your chest). In terms of caliber, I'm thinking of getting into 10mm for this purpose. A 45 is okay, but when I take my 45 into the wilderness it's loaded with 230 +P HST's. Oh, and black bears can and do attack. I don't hear of it much, but back in Wisconsin people have been mauled by Black Bears. If you surprise them or they feel you've threatened their cubs, they'll attack.

bubbagump
11-04-2009, 9:15 AM
Where was this pic taken and who knows what kind of snake this is?

Sheep Mountain Wilderness---San Gabriel River

Snapping Twig
11-04-2009, 10:01 AM
Factory .44 JHP is sufficient for California black bear. My BIL has taken two this way.

I'd use my own cast 265g (Lyman 429244) for this purpose, but other than an attack, I'd never consider shooting a bear. We leave each other alone. :)

yelohamr
11-06-2009, 1:36 PM
Wild animals? How about dealing with domesticated ones.

http://www.nctimes.com//news/local/vista/article_effdec92-0db4-57ff-82d6-97da8eb44b68.html

Chris M
11-06-2009, 1:44 PM
Wild animals? How about dealing with domesticated ones.

http://www.nctimes.com//news/local/vista/article_effdec92-0db4-57ff-82d6-97da8eb44b68.html


"People were just passing us by, and people were standing behind their cars, and I was just looking at them, yelling, 'help me, please help me.' And they would say, "I called 911". But nobody would come."

:eek:

When will people learn that pressing 3 buttons on a phone isn't going to immediately resolve the situation?

SgtDinosaur
11-06-2009, 3:40 PM
I carried a 44 mag on a backpacking trip and decided it weighed too much, so I switched to a Glock 27. Basically the same trade-off as the M-14 vs. the M-16. Along with the ensuing risk that it won't be enough gun - which I can live with. Truck camping is a whole nuther story.

When I lived in Alaska back in the '70's it was generally agreed that .44 mag was optimal, but they didn't make more powerful handguns back then. For brown bear an RPG may not be enough :)

SJgunguy24
11-06-2009, 4:01 PM
I carried a 44 mag on a backpacking trip and decided it weighed too much, so I switched to a Glock 27. Basically the same trade-off as the M-14 vs. the M-16. Along with the ensuing risk that it won't be enough gun - which I can live with. Truck camping is a whole nuther story.

When I lived in Alaska back in the '70's it was generally agreed that .44 mag was optimal, but they didn't make more powerful handguns back then. For brown bear an RPG may not be enough :)

Yes I agree, call in the A 10's for the Browns

toadmire
11-06-2009, 4:39 PM
You have a lot more chance of getting killed by a bee than any bear or puma. The most deaths cause by non-poisonous animals is the dog! Better load the pistol for anti-fifi rounds. :eek:


http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=016&issue=02&page=0067#i1080-6032-016-02-0067-t02

Chris M
11-06-2009, 4:47 PM
You have a lot more chance of getting killed by a bee than any bear or puma. The most deaths cause by non-poisonous animals is the dog! Better load the pistol for anti-fifi rounds. :eek:


http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=016&issue=02&page=0067#i1080-6032-016-02-0067-t02

Right...because most people live within city limits, and aren't exposed to the wilderness. Bees live in cities - where people live. Many people are alergic to bees. It just makes sense that more people would die from bee stings. When you're in the wilderness, you're more likely to be attacked to by a bear or mountain lion, than you would be at the local park or walmart parking lot.

According to your logic...we're all more likely to be struck by lightning than be shot by a bad guy, we should just get rid of our guns and get lightning rod robots to follow us around...just in case.

CSACANNONEER
11-06-2009, 5:00 PM
A .45 acp is overkill on a cat. Many many cats have been taken with a pack of dogs (to tree them) and a .22 mag to the head. This used to be done to preserve the pelt. As far as bears go, I'd suggest nothing less than a .41 mag, .44mag or bigger. But, I've carried a .45acp in bear contry to use as a sound maker to scare them off.

While I have not ran into any Rattlesnakes on my hikes throughout CA,


So, you haven't done much real hiking? Or, do you just hike way above the snow line? If you ever want to run into snattle rakes, let me know. I can always find them when I'm not looking for them.

yellowfin
11-06-2009, 6:58 PM
A .45 acp is overkill on a cat. Many many cats have been taken with a pack of dogs (to tree them) and a .22 mag to the head.If something has teeth and claws or arms and hands and the inclination to kill me and close enough to do it, a Minigun isn't overkill enough.

Rob454
11-06-2009, 7:00 PM
If you surprise them or they feel you've threatened their cubs, they'll attack.

yeah but that woudl be anywhere. basically if youre out hiking make noise. Animals will hear you and they will get out of your way. Animals arent stupid. they want a confrontation with you as much as you want one with them.
Animals can and do attack if they feel threatened. if you give them plenty of warning theywill go on their way unless its a special circumstance ( got a kill cubs are too slow etc. ) you still need to be careful but 99% of the time animals will go away.

As for rattle snakes hell if you go hiking in the winter time then no. usually rattlers stop being active by october or so ( depending on temps)
The worse ones are the ones that had their rattles broken off. Came up on one like that once and it was agressive so i shot it with my shotgun ( was jack wabbit hunting). . Even better. its not enough to be almost bitten by a rattler but a mohave green just makes it that much more interesting. in case you didnt know a mohjave is pretty much the most dangerous of ALL rattlers in the US. its venom attacks both the nervous and the vascular system.
So its basically a double whammy. Pretty much if I would of gotten bitten i probably wouldn't of made it to the hospital. 4 mile hike back to the truck and then a 25 or so mile drive to a small town then about 50-80 miles to a hospital. i watch out for rattlers when i go hunting. if I see them and theire worthy I kill it and then i fry it up back at camp

jsmith8918
11-06-2009, 7:37 PM
1911 with extra power Wolff springs to accomodate .45 Super.

toadmire
11-06-2009, 7:52 PM
Right...because most people live within city limits, and aren't exposed to the wilderness. Bees live in cities - where people live. Many people are alergic to bees. It just makes sense that more people would die from bee stings. When you're in the wilderness, you're more likely to be attacked to by a bear or mountain lion, than you would be at the local park or walmart parking lot.

According to your logic...we're all more likely to be struck by lightning than be shot by a bad guy, we should just get rid of our guns and get lightning rod robots to follow us around...just in case.

Personally I have lived in the sticks for a while. I say carry the gun (whatever it is), better if it's a poly gun so it isn't as conductive to electricity. lol
I used to run a camp in the mountains of California where the closest civilization was a mile away. All the city folk visitors could talk about were lions, snakes and bears OhMy! We had bears and cougar come into or very near our camp. They deserve a lot of respect, but all the injuries we ever had in years of babysitting people were bee stings, falls and stupid cuts people got with their unused foot long survival knives.
People don't realize that packs of dogs are a real problem to farmers, and sheep ranchers not to mention city dwellers. More people are killed by domestic dogs (a lot of them end up being in rural areas) than bears, pumas and snakes put together!

yelohamr
11-06-2009, 8:39 PM
You don't have to run faster than the bear...just faster than the other people with you.

CSACANNONEER
11-07-2009, 6:10 AM
As for rattle snakes hell if you go hiking in the winter time then no. usually rattlers stop being active by october or so ( depending on temps)
The worse ones are the ones that had their rattles broken off. Came up on one like that once and it was agressive so i shot it with my shotgun ( was jack wabbit hunting). . Even better. its not enough to be almost bitten by a rattler but a mohave green just makes it that much more interesting. in case you didnt know a mohjave is pretty much the most dangerous of ALL rattlers in the US. its venom attacks both the nervous and the vascular system.
So its basically a double whammy. Pretty much if I would of gotten bitten i probably wouldn't of made it to the hospital. 4 mile hike back to the truck and then a 25 or so mile drive to a small town then about 50-80 miles to a hospital. i watch out for rattlers when i go hunting. if I see them and theire worthy I kill it and then i fry it up back at camp


Yep, you'll only be bitten by a Green once. Chances are, you'll be dead before you get back to your vehicle, no matter how close you are to it. As far as snakes after Oct., I've found a rattler on top of a ridge in the Santa Monica Mountains in late Nov when the temp was in the 30s! I was very surprised. I've seen them as early as the begining of Feb. too. So, I really feel that snake awareness should be a year long thing not just practiced during snake season.

cineski
11-08-2009, 10:05 AM
My buddy and I were climbing up some rocks in the SM mountains when I came face to face with a Pacific Rattlesnake. He was no joke 1 foot from my face and I was staring right at him. I slowly backed off and we spent a bit of time taking some photos before going around him. The only time he moved was a flick of the tongue when we got behind him to continue on our way.

cineski
11-08-2009, 10:07 AM
No it's not. When you're being attacked or watching someone being attacked, the cat is not up in a tree surrounded by dogs, and your chance of a clean headshot is basically zero. You'll be lucky to strike in the shoulder area. 45 is the absolute minimum I'll carry in the woods, and I'd feel better with a 10mm.

A .45 acp is overkill on a cat. Many many cats have been taken with a pack of dogs (to tree them) and a .22 mag to the head. This used to be done to preserve the pelt.

trinydex
11-08-2009, 5:41 PM
Who's behind the agenda, developers? The only reason mountain lion attacks have become more common is because of loss of habitat due to development.

i thought they attack hikers? who hikes in the the suburbs?

locosway
11-08-2009, 6:36 PM
I plan on carrying my 1911 on most of my hikes. I used to carry a 12 Gauge or .270, but the 1911 is handier, especially when carrying heavy loads or scrambling over structures.

I know .45 ACP is NOT the ideal caliber for Mountain Lions/Black Bears...but I'm honestly more worried about weight/compactness and "two-legged" critters.

So, if I had to use the .45 ACP on a Mountain Lion/Black Bear...what would be the BEST load for my 1911. Hand loading is not an option because I currently do not reload...so I have to settle for factory loads...what do you guys think?

Also, I will be open carrying the 1911. Does a thigh holster fly under the definition of 12025(f)?

While you're correct that the .45 is not ideal for animals, it WILL work if you need it to. However, do not go for head shots unless you have a clear shot at the eyes.

Now, personally, if you're looking for an auto-loader that's compact and will handle animals, I'd go with a Glock 29sf. The 10mm is really a magnum round. If you want a smaller wheel gun I'd go with a .44 magnum or a .357magnum at the least.

Now, if you're hell bent on carrying your .45, use +p ammo.

Mitch
11-09-2009, 6:15 AM
i thought they attack hikers? who hikes in the the suburbs?

Cleveland National Forest, where some of the most publicized attacks have happened, is now almost a suburb of Rancho Santa Margarita.

I hike every weekend but I and my buddies never see cats because we are high up in the San Bernardino or San Gabriel Mountains, which haven't experienced much habitat encroachment in the last 60 years.

SJgunguy24
11-09-2009, 11:30 AM
i thought they attack hikers? who hikes in the the suburbs?
Heres one, in Palo Alto......in the city not the hills.
www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=142

There's a lot more of these that people think. I live 3/4 of a mile from hills in south San Jose where wild pig are coming down and destroying people lawns and property. Coyotes are cruising the streets during daylight hours
There are deer everywhere and everything that Mt. Lions eat. Just over the hill from me there have been Mt.loin sightings. Thats not the middle of nowhere, thats where thousands of people live.

para38super
11-20-2009, 9:30 AM
what about a .38 super is like a 357 magnum in a 1911 platform. The .38 super is very powerfull round and penetrates more than a 45 acp.

locosway
11-20-2009, 9:32 AM
what about a .38 super is like a 357 magnum in a 1911 platform. The .38 super is very powerfull round and penetrates more than a 45 acp.

Uhh... No... The .38 Super is not near a .357 Magnum round. If you want something of the Magnum performance in an autoloader then either run a 10mm, or get a DE in .44Mag.

retired
11-20-2009, 11:01 AM
I used oaklander's search link and found all of these threads on this site as it has been discussed before. I did one last year IIRC and received a lot of excellent responses.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk&ie=UTF-8&q=what+caliber+for+bears+and+mountain+lions&sa=Search&siteurl=www.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx%3D0181499 31542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk

WeekendWarrior
11-20-2009, 12:00 PM
WWRTW

para38super
11-23-2009, 8:02 AM
Uhh... No... The .38 Super is not near a .357 Magnum round. If you want something of the Magnum performance in an autoloader then either run a 10mm, or get a DE in .44Mag.

you should look into the .38 super capabilities. If loaded the right way it could be upthere. Near 1400fps at 400 lbs of force. Is that not close to 357 mag.

locosway
11-23-2009, 8:16 AM
you should look into the .38 super capabilities. If loaded the right way it could be upthere. Near 1400fps at 400 lbs of force. Is that not close to 357 mag.

Look at bullet weight, there's no comparison. You'll never reach the performance of a .357 magnum from the .38 super.

Here, lets take into account sectional density and stuff... My formula shows the .38 super at: 177.4

This is with a 100gr bullet at 1450fps

While the .357 Magnum is: 227.4

And with a 130gr bullet at 1410fps

Check it out, http://gryman.com/rpf/

para38super
11-23-2009, 8:38 AM
Look at bullet weight, there's no comparison. You'll never reach the performance of a .357 magnum from the .38 super.

Here, lets take into account sectional density and stuff... My formula shows the .38 super at: 177.4

This is with a 100gr bullet at 1450fps

While the .357 Magnum is: 227.4

And with a 130gr bullet at 1410fps

Check it out, http://gryman.com/rpf/

I made my point. Is the 38 super close to the 357 mag. Maybe not more powerfull or equal but it is up there. Faster and with a bigger punch then 45 acp.

bombadillo
11-23-2009, 8:39 AM
Back to the original question of whether you would carry a .45acp along the trail with you for bears or mountain lion, I would NEVER take the chance at using that specific caliber. I know locos is going to say 10mm :p But........I would go with a .44mag wheel gun. They're simple, 6 shots of raw knockdown power with the 340gr Buffalo Bore slugs. This is off their website:

Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

As far as specs go, a 340gr hard cast slug going 1478fps is a powerhouse of a round and should stop any cat and most bears where they are. If you're running up against a grizzly or something, good luck i'd go with yet another bigger round but if you're not going to be heading up to Alaska anytime soon, .44mag is your friend. Get a super redhawk alaskan in .44mag or .454 casull and you can fire a .45lc for practice. You can get them for around 700 used or around 825-900 brand new in box. It'll last the rest of your lifetime and probably your kids as well.

bombadillo
11-23-2009, 8:40 AM
Here's a link of one for sale cheap: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=147675453

locosway
11-23-2009, 8:42 AM
Not according to my numbers.

230gr @ 850fps give a RPF of 247.8, meaning at the muzzle it's more capable.

Baxter
11-23-2009, 2:13 PM
Being accurate and aware seems to be more important. Just strap it on and forget about it.

locosway
11-23-2009, 2:18 PM
Being accurate and aware seems to be more important. Just strap it on and forget about it.

Yes!!! I remember one time when I was younger I was camping with my dad and stuff. My dad and step mom weren't into guns so I didn't have mine with me. Anyway, I was hiking away from camp by myself and suddenly I could smell this horrid smell. I ended up coming into what appeared to be a small den area where something very large was sleeping. First thought was it's a bears den, and it knows I'm here by my smell! So I took off back the way I came never to leave camp again that weekend.

nitrofc
11-23-2009, 5:17 PM
I heard up in Alaska while for fishing on the sides of some rivers for Salmon....some guy's carry a 50 Cal.

Just don't let your wife or girl friend use it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7W7lbXyPus

too old for this
11-23-2009, 10:16 PM
JDOE said "I'd take the 45-70. I'd also take a handgun (Sorry to open up a whole 'nother can of worms). I've done quite a bit of research on bear attacks in Alaska."

Well Alaska has brown bears and they are totally a different story from black bears.

I have friends who hunt browns in Alaska. Not sure what kind of rifle they use, but both carry 50 cal. revolvers as BUGs. One of them thinks he would have to have two well-placed hits with the 50 to disable a brown. One thing to remember about brown bears is that if it gets pissed, you can become the hunted. When a brown is around, you are no longer at the top of food chain.

In both California and in the East, I have come across some blacks. I just made a bit of noise and it went one way and I went the other way [fast].

I have been backpacking in Arizona and saw lots of Mountain Lion tracks, but never saw one although my guide assured me that they had seen use. Of course, that part of Arizona was very remote -- a couple 100 miles from from any housing developments. Problem in California is that we keep building and building -- reducing the poor lion's natural habitat and forcing them to adapt in new and less human friendly ways. But please remember that the lion was there first and he views it as his land and is willing to protect it just as such as you are willing to protect you land.

I don't pack when I hike [which is usually in state parks where I assume, but don't know for sure, guns are not allow.] But if I did, I would take our 44 mag. over the 45.

Lead Lobber
11-23-2009, 10:34 PM
A .44 will deter most predators, but you have to know how to shoot accurately. Inaccurately placed shots tend to piss off large predators.

Coltlover
11-24-2009, 3:05 AM
38 super Colt was known to drop bears with 9 rounds back in the 30s according to their promotion booklets......

locosway
11-24-2009, 5:51 AM
38 super Colt was known to drop bears with 9 rounds back in the 30s according to their promotion booklets......

And they only held 8 rounds in the gun!! :D:D:D:D:D:o

grymster
11-24-2009, 6:25 AM
.45 ACP is better than a dull hat pin, but not what I'd choose for the job.

para38super
11-25-2009, 4:54 AM
And they only held 8 rounds in the gun!! :D:D:D:D:D:o

Colt 38 super holds 9 rounds in the mag in one in the chamber. 9+1

locosway
11-25-2009, 6:37 AM
Colt 38 super holds 9 rounds in the mag in one in the chamber. 9+1

It was a joke...

chuckdc
11-25-2009, 2:58 PM
Here's one for you big-cat folks.. a mountain lion has been spotted in Woodward Park in Fresno. That area has been developed for over 30 years now. I'm guessing the cat isn't that old, so it moved here, the town didnt move around it.

Firearms-wise, I'd say that a heavy-load .45 would be adequate for most of the cats. They're not African lions! You're talking about something that runs 75-100lb and is relatively thin-skinned. Yes, they are mean and tough, but you don't need a Titan II with the 9MT warhead to kill one.

The black bears in CA are generally not that large, but they have a pretty fair fat layer on them that helps them soak up bullets. If I recall correctly, one of the largest blackies ever taken in CA was killed with a .357mag.

Youre more likely to run into snake or human-snake problems out there, depending on where you do your outdoors activities. I've had close encounters with the buzzing serpents, and was typically glad to have the shotgun I was using to hunt quail. An ounce of 7 1/2's will properly adjust their attitude, and keep them away from my dogs as well.
I've seen some crummy people doing stupid things, too. One was going to take a "sound shot" on a deer that happened to be my Weimaraner.:eek: Another was a gangbanger who apparently wanted to test out his new little .25 in a county park. I was fishing out of his sight due to the undercut bank, but he just walked up and rapped off a magazine full at nothing in particular. Guess he missed the "no firearms" sign at the entrance there.

Chris M
11-25-2009, 3:18 PM
Firearms-wise, I'd say that a heavy-load .45 would be adequate for most of the cats. They're not African lions! You're talking about something that runs 75-100lb and is relatively thin-skinned. Yes, they are mean and tough, but you don't need a Titan II with the 9MT warhead to kill one.

The black bears in CA are generally not that large, but they have a pretty fair fat layer on them that helps them soak up bullets. If I recall correctly, one of the largest blackies ever taken in CA was killed with a .357mag.

Hunting dangerous game is quite different from protecting yourself from an animal that is charging at you. A wooden arrow with a stone point is all that's needed to take just about any big game in North America. It is not, however adequate for stopping a charging lion or black bear in it's tracks.

If you're anticipating being in lion or bear country, carry the most powerful handgun you're comfortable carrying.