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View Full Version : Open carry in Yellowstone, what about Yosemite?


gunsmith
11-01-2009, 2:23 PM
when that new law goes into effect.
;-)

( stupid anti's really shot themselves in the foot, the old law, halted by a court order for environmental impact didn't allow for open carry, you needed a permit for CCW! This new law simply says you can follow State law, CA allows for open carry at your campsite I believe)

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5202
Guns in parks OK for all
Federal legislation allows visitors to carry firearms openly, without a permit

By Cory Hatch, Jackson Hole, Wyo.
October 21, 2009

Officials say a law signed by President Obama in May will allow gun owners to openly carry firearms in Grand Teton and the Wyoming portions of Yellowstone when the law goes into effect in February.

Several National Park Service employees and legal experts who interpreted the legislation say it extends to all, not just those with concealed weapons permits. When U.S. Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., attached a rider to a credit card reform bill earlier this year, almost all reports indicated it applied to concealed weapons only.

While federal officials are trying to figure out the nuances of the law to develop guidance for park rangers, one said there appears to be little question that toting firearms openly will be allowed, depending on the law of the state in which the park is located. Since Wyoming does not require a permit to openly carry weapons, visitors would be able to pack heat in plain view of the public while in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks.

The interpretation raises the possibility that those who tread the shores of Jenny Lake and the boardwalks of Old Faithful could brandish rifles and sidearms. For conservation groups and rangers, the specter looms of backcountry travelers arming themselves for self-defense and poachers wandering the woods with impunity.

“If, in Wyoming, it says you can walk down the street with a firearm strapped to your waist, it’s legal [in Grand Teton and Yellowstone],” said Phil Selleck, chief of regulations and special park uses for the Park Service. He made his comments in a telephone interview from Washington, D.C., after being asked to explain the new legislation.

“If the state law doesn’t require a permit, then a permit is not required,” Selleck said.

At Grand Teton National Park headquarters in Moose, spokeswoman Jackie Skaggs said it’s a common misconception that the new guns in parks law only applies to concealed weapons. During the Bush administration, gun advocates pushed a repeal of the firearm prohibition in national parks, succeeding only in obtaining an administrative rule allowing some permitted concealed weapons.

That concealed-weapons rule was overturned in court. Coburn’s rider was much more lenient, although it has not been reported as such.

“Everyone assumed that it’s the concealed weapons permit holders that will able allowed to carry,” Skaggs said. “It’s broader than that now.”

Kent Spence, a trial lawyer and partner at the Spence Law Firm, agreed with the interpretation that most park visitors will be allowed to openly carry weapons.

“As long as they don’t have any legal problems pending, there’s no reason why they can’t come into Wyoming and into the park as long as it’s in plain view,” he said.

Spence supports the new law.

“I’ve always felt a little uncomfortable in bear country in a national park not being able to carry a gun while camping,” he said. “I still think that the best line of defense is pepper spray, but if that’s not working, it’s nice to know that you have a bear gun with you.”

Skaggs said Grand Teton law enforcement officers will be ready when the law goes into effect Feb. 22.

“We’re prepared to implement the laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president,” she said. “Our understanding is, the state regulations for an ordinary citizen in the state of Wyoming will apply to national parklands.”

However, Skaggs said some rules do differ in the park compared to the rest of the state.

“They cannot use it or display it in a threatening manner, and they cannot discharge it unless their personal safety is in question,” she said.

Spence said what’s good in Wyoming should be good in Yellowstone.

“I think the law is good because, why should it be any different just because we crossed the boundary into a national park when we’re still in Wyoming?” he said.

Bryan Faehner, associate director for park uses with the National Parks Conservation Association, said he’s concerned.

“We, all along, have felt that the [1983 Reagan administration] regulation that is still in place is working just fine,” he said. “Parks are some of the safest places in the country.

“[With the new law] people could be walking around possibly carrying a rifle,” Faehner said. “That changes the dynamics of the park experience.”

In addition to the potential for an increase in violent crimes in parks, Faehner said he’s worried about what the new gun law means for wildlife.

“It’s going to be very interesting to see how it all plays out in terms of poaching,” he said. “I think there are individuals who could be getting a lot closer to wildlife.”

“Having a firearm gives some people a false sense of security,” Faehner said. “That’s not to say that all firearm owners are like that, but there are going to be some people who push the envelope.”

Louise Lasley, public lands director for the Jackson Hole Conservation Alliance, said her organization also opposes the change.

“The Jackson Hole Conservation Alliance has, since this proposal was first initiated, been concerned for human safety and wildlife protection and how to resolve jurisdictional complexity in places like Yellowstone,” she said.

Coburn attached the rider to a credit card reform bill earlier this year. The law will allow people, including those with concealed weapons permits, to carry weapons in parks provided the state in which the park resides recognizes the permit. The law also applies to the National Wildlife Refuge System.

States such as Massachusetts and New York have stricter gun laws that require permits for the sale and possession of firearms. Park rules in those states would mimic state laws.

With the new law, people in national parks will not be allowed to carry weapons, concealed or otherwise, in federal buildings.

Selleck said the law could be tricky to observe in parks that cross state lines such as Yellowstone – which covers parts of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana – and Death Valley, which is in Nevada and California. Each state might have a different law regarding firearms and those would be reflected in park regulations.

“If you’re in Yellowstone, you have to know whether you’re standing in Wyoming, Idaho or Montana,” he said. “Please, please, please, if you’re going to travel with a firearm, know the laws. Know what you should be doing and what you can’t do. That way you won’t be disappointed.”

wildhawker
11-01-2009, 3:09 PM
I have well-connected family in JH; I'll see what I can dig up on the issue from their perspective and the Jackson Hole Conservation Alliance.

Mayhem
11-01-2009, 3:30 PM
If I'm not mistaken you can Loaded CCW at your campsite in california just as you can in your home, On your Private Property, in your fixed place of business, or in a hotel room.

You can also Legally Loaded CCW when your hunting and fishing in a location that does not prohibit you from Discharging a firearm (You can Unloaded CCW in this case provided your not in an incorporated area). Unloaded is seen differently between DFG Codes and the Penal Code. DFG considers loaded to be a round in the chamber or ready to fire, The CP Code sees it as a round in the firearm.

Again this is if I'm not mistaken and this by no means legal advise. Even if legal you can still be harassed arrested charged and even dragged to court costing you a small fortune in legal fees and require you to jump threw hoops to get your gun and other seized property back after your released or acquitted.

gunsmith
11-01-2009, 3:48 PM
afaik if you do not have a ccw then you can only open carry while at your campsite, not ccw like when you are in a hotel room/private residence.
ianal

MudCamper
11-01-2009, 4:34 PM
HR627 will go into effect after February 22, 2010. This will make National Parks basically the same as National Forests with respect to firearms possession and use. See Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) for complete details.

However, each park will likely post it's restrictions before then, which could include (and likely will IMO) an all out ban on shooting in the entire park. The Park Service may also come up with a national policy by that time also.

Even in the worst case scenario, we (in California) will have UOC in most of the parks territory and LOC in one's campsite.

Mayhem
11-01-2009, 6:30 PM
Theres a book called "How to own a gun in California and stay out of jail" Get it and read it. Once thew NP system changes its stance on firearms expect an update to the book.

gunsmith
11-02-2009, 1:02 AM
Theres a book called "How to own a gun in California and stay out of jail" Get it and read it. Once thew NP system changes its stance on firearms expect an update to the book.

great book, I agree.
Now I will finally be able to enjoy a nice
relaxing camping trip, and the Staynor serial killer types will
have to look elsewhere for unarmed victims.

I once called Yosemite, years and years ago, simply asking what the policy
on guns actually was-they were incredibly rude.

I will be very polite...and well armed.

goldleviathan
11-02-2009, 1:43 AM
Now I will finally be able to enjoy a nice
relaxing camping trip, and the Staynor serial killer types will
have to look elsewhere for unarmed victims.

A few obvious problems with that. Cary Stayner worked at the Cedar Lodge motel in El Portal, CA not Yosemite. This is where he attacked Carole Sund, Juli Sund and Silvina Pelosso. A loaded gun would have been perfectly legal in those rooms because the lodge is located outside the park in gun friendly Mariposa County. (A green CCW county for anyone who is interested). His last victim Joie Armstrong was attacked at her home in Foresta, CA which is 2.5 miles north of El Portal. Stayner himself was carrying a .22 revolver and caught her off guard.

But to make gunsmith feel safe, I should point out that Cary is already in prison awaiting the death penalty and I'm pretty sure he wasn't looking for 49 year old men anyway. The camping areas in Yosemite Valley are so crowded during the summer that you might think your are at Disneyland on 1/2 price day. (Not exactly the best place for "serial killer types" to seek victims).

gunsmith
11-02-2009, 9:22 AM
But to make gunsmith feel safe.
LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBcHUe4WeQ

goldleviathan, your mission, (should you choose to accept it)
is to change every internet reference to the "Yosemite killer"
to the "Cedar Lodge motel in El Portal killer"
Good luck Jim

M1A Rifleman
11-02-2009, 10:40 AM
[QUOTE=goldleviathan;3302411]Cary Stayner worked at the Cedar Lodge motel in El Portal, CA not Yosemite. This is where he attacked Carole Sund, Juli Sund and Silvina Pelosso. A loaded gun would have been perfectly legal in those rooms because the lodge is located outside the park in gun friendly Mariposa County. (A green CCW county for anyone who is interested). His last victim Joie Armstrong was attacked at her home in Foresta, CA which is 2.5 miles north of El Portal. Stayner himself was carrying a .22 revolver and caught her off guard.
QUOTE]

I was staying there with my wife not but a month or two before he committed the deed. The morning we left about 50 cars in the parking lot all had flat tires - creepy huh?

Mayhem
11-02-2009, 11:06 AM
Shenandoah National Park = Julie Williams Age 24, Lollie Winans Age 26

Fish Head Beach = Lindsay Cutshall age 22, Jason Allen age 26

Although not a National Park it was in California. and remains unsolved.

Flopper
11-02-2009, 11:43 AM
afaik if you do not have a ccw then you can only open carry while at your campsite, not ccw like when you are in a hotel room/private residence.
ianal

You can CCW while in your temporary residence while camping.

The real question: does this only apply inside the tent/mobile home/trailer/other, or does it extend to the immediate area also? I would assume it only applies to the inside of the residence because of Overturf and other rulings, but I have no idea.

MudCamper
11-02-2009, 1:37 PM
You can CCW while in your temporary residence while camping.

The real question: does this only apply inside the tent/mobile home/trailer/other, or does it extend to the immediate area also? I would assume it only applies to the inside of the residence because of Overturf and other rulings, but I have no idea.

You cannot legally CCW in your campsite in a NP, yet. You are confusing an exception to CA PC with federal CFR. See Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457).

Mayhem
11-02-2009, 2:12 PM
Deleted ... Double Post.

Mayhem
11-02-2009, 2:36 PM
My understanding with current rulings it applies to anyplace you can charge someone for trespassing. Such as your front yard or driveway. However sidewalks (this case was applied to safe zones not CCW) are considered a public walkway. You can only enforce loitering but not trespassing. Same could be said for apartment complex parking lots even as the owner you would have a hard time pressing trespassing, and If i'm not mistaken one apartment complex owner went to jail for CCW in the parking lot.

I disagree with those interpretations as far as CCW goes but your talking about cases made by over zealous District attorneys looking to make a name for them selfs and 12 idiots that couldn't get out of jury duty.

You cannot legally CCW in your campsite in a NP, yet. You are confusing an exception to CA PC with federal CFR. See Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457).

I thought we are talking about when they lift the restriction and CA law Applies.

You can CCW while in your temporary residence while camping.

The real question: does this only apply inside the tent/mobile home/trailer/other, or does it extend to the immediate area also? I would assume it only applies to the inside of the residence because of Overturf and other rulings, but I have no idea.

As far as I know you are safe On your property but again that is all subject to interpretation.

“The term public place generally means a location readily accessible to all those who wish to go there . . . . The key consideration is whether a member of the public can access the place without challenge."

I assume challenge would be your legal ability to tell some one to leave based off of that person just being there.

try to Access My property and You will be challenged. I even have no trespassing signs that state I may shoot you and if you servive the first shot I may shoot you again ... If thats not a Challange I don't know what is.

Again the stupid thing about case law is it's determined by a politically motivated DA and 12 Idiots.

You would have to look at each piece of case law and determine who was arrested and for what (charges) and where they were (sidewalk parking lot ect.) and what was the outcome.

The questions for CCW in a campsite is. are you limited to your temporary domicile, your camp site or your camp grounds. If I'm not mistaken Campsite is the word used in the penal code, Since primitave camping in a NF outside improved campgrounds is not only practiced but common with no clear boundaries what would your Campsite consist of.

So again are you limited to your temp domicile, or Your campsite and what does that consist of? If you can CCW in Campground that does not prohibit firearms, does that mean you can CCW the entire area of the campground or just your individual site.

And wouldn't the rules already apply to state parks, as your temporary domicile should take presidence over all other state laws should you not be able to CCW in at least your tent?

Now comes the goofy, How many people get their persons and tents searched when camping? I've never heard of anyone in California ever getting checked let alone arrested and prosecuted For open carry or Concealed carry in their camp site or temp domicile. I don't think I know of any cases in a campground.

I do know of a vague case where people got in trouble for using night vision devices in a State Park while looking for big foot.

Then again I'm not an attorney and this is no way any form of legal advise. One should always consult an attorney (this is sad the law is so complex and convoluted you need a bar certified person with an 6 to 8 + year higher education just to interpret the law) if one has questions regarding their rights or the law.

Remember even people acting well within their rights have been arrested charged and taken to court. Costing them money to defend them selfs and having to jump threw hoops to reacquire seized property.

and lastly "I read it on a message board" doesn't cut it in court.

goldleviathan
11-02-2009, 2:43 PM
I was staying there with my wife not but a month or two before he committed the deed. The morning we left about 50 cars in the parking lot all had flat tires - creepy huh?

I've got a creepy story about this too. My ex-wife was stalked by a 30 year old Cary Stayner when she was a 17 year old high school student. This happened only months after Cary's uncle, Jesse Stayner, was shot and killed with his own gun in a home he shared with Cary. There were no suspects at the time but now Cary is believed to have committed this crime as well.

As for the stalking situation, the police and her father had to come to the high school and chase Cary Stayner away. She never saw him again but...

During the death penalty stage of Stayner's trial, his defense lawyers came to my home to extract mitgating circumstance information from my ex.

Cary claimed that he suffered mental problems stemming from a phone conversation in which he told her that he was impotent and that he regularly pulled his own hair out and ate it. She of course, being 17, told everyone that would listen. Cary claimed this caused him humiliation and mental anguish.

MudCamper
11-02-2009, 3:16 PM
and lastly "I read it on a message board" doesn't cut it in court.

That is why I cite EVERY applicable federal and state law in my Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread.

Mayhem
11-02-2009, 4:07 PM
That is why I cite EVERY applicable federal and state law in my Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread.

That wasn't directed at you Mudcamper.

I'm just saying one should be very careful when acting on advise or information read in message board even mine or yours specially mine as I know I have and do make mistakes.

gunsmith
11-02-2009, 10:29 PM
I've got a creepy story about this too. My ex-wife was stalked by a 30 year old Cary Stayner when she was a 17 year old high school student. This happened only months after Cary's uncle, Jesse Stayner, was shot and killed with his own gun in a home he shared with Cary. There were no suspects at the time but now Cary is believed to have committed this crime as well.

As for the stalking situation, the police and her father had to come to the high school and chase Cary Stayner away. She never saw him again but...

During the death penalty stage of Stayner's trial, his defense lawyers came to my home to extract mitgating circumstance information from my ex.

Cary claimed that he suffered mental problems stemming from a phone conversation in which he told her that he was impotent and that he regularly pulled his own hair out and ate it. She of course, being 17, told everyone that would listen. Cary claimed this caused him humiliation and mental anguish.

I met a nutjob that killed at least two girls, I didn't like him from the first time I met him.
& even after 20 something years I still do not trust certain kinds of delusional types.