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View Full Version : Californians arrested in Reno for buying hi-cap mags


10-07-2005, 5:00 PM
This is hearsay so I wanted to see if anyone else can confirm or deny.

A guy claims he went to a recent Reno gun show and witnessed literally dozens of CA residents getting arrested in the parking lot for purchasing hi-cap mags. Apparently law enforcement watched people buy hi-cap mags and followed them to the parking lot. If they had a car with CA plates they were arrested for intent to import.

This boggles my mind. Has anyone heard of this actually happening and if so, what the final disposition of the cases was?

RRangel
10-07-2005, 5:12 PM
That would be a stretch. They would have to cross the state line in to California in order to break the law.

I have never heard that buying full capacity magazines that hold more than ten rounds is illegal out of state regardless of state residency.

What if they were on vacation and only intended to use them at the local range while in the state? What if they were a gift for a freind in the state?

imported_TMC
10-07-2005, 5:14 PM
Its most likely a scare tactic, I think you actually have to entry CA before you have comitted a crime.

There is no law aginst me going to Reno, buying a hi-cap mag and using it in Nevada and then selling or throwing it away before coming back in CA.

saki302
10-07-2005, 5:17 PM
nor is it illegal to buy a hi-cap mag, disassemble the thing, and bring a few mag parts to refresh your existing stock.

I heard all sorts of nonsense about stings at Reno and NV, but I haven't seen anything yet. I liked the Reno show a lot for their C&R and cowboy stuff, but it's too darn far for me to drive from SoCal.

-Dave

10-07-2005, 5:45 PM
California law enforcement officers have no authority in Nevada.

imported_TMC
10-07-2005, 7:12 PM
I do know that CA DOJ has pressured the BATF to visit border city FFL's and ask then to request ID when selling hi-cap mags other CA banned items. The info came from an FFL in Reno who said, while he's not required to do it and resents the fact that they ask, the BATF does control his livelyhood in the form of his liscense.

I don't know why the BAFT would get involved with a state issue but they have.

Mssr. ElegantÚ
10-07-2005, 9:53 PM
1:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares.

1:40 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent notices somebody purchasing a 25 round Ruger 10/22 magazine. He begins to follow that person around the show, not getting too close, but not letting him get out of sight.

2:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows his suspect out of the show hall and observes him meet up with a female and then enter the casino all-you-can-eat buffet. Should he follow the suspect into the buffet? That'll cost $13.95 and he just ate lunch three hours ago. Maybe just wait at the bar and drink a Coke? He'll still have a good view of the suspect from the bar. Yeah, a Coke it is.

3:05 PM - From his vantage point at the bar, Cal DOJ undercover agent observes the suspect and female companion leaving the all-you-can-eat buffet. He follows them first to the restrooms, and then to a bank of nickel slot machines near the main exit. The suspect's female companion is witnessed loosing close to 45¢ to a slot machine in under one minute.

3:15 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows the couple outside of the the Reno Hilton casino and into the parking lot where the suspects approach and then enter a metalic blue 2002 Buick Regal with.....UTAH PLATES!!! Doh!

3:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares...

imported_dadoody
10-08-2005, 1:17 AM
Originally posted by Amendment II:
1:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares.

1:40 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent notices somebody purchasing a 25 round Ruger 10/22 magazine. He begins to follow that person around the show, not getting too close, but not letting him get out of sight.

2:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows his suspect out of the show hall and observes him meet up with a female and then enter the casino all-you-can-eat buffet. Should he follow the suspect into the buffet? That'll cost $13.95 and he just ate lunch three hours ago. Maybe just wait at the bar and drink a Coke? He'll still have a good view of the suspect from the bar. Yeah, a Coke it is.

3:05 PM - From his vantage point at the bar, Cal DOJ undercover agent observes the suspect and female companion leaving the all-you-can-eat buffet. He follows them first to the restrooms, and then to a bank of nickel slot machines near the main exit. The suspect's female companion is witnessed loosing close to 45¢ to a slot machine in under one minute.

3:15 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows the couple outside of the the Reno Hilton casino and into the parking lot where the suspects approach and then enter a metalic blue 2002 Buick Regal with.....UTAH PLATES!!! Doh!

3:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares...


^ This dood up here. Here's the dood. haha.

10-08-2005, 8:23 AM
The Cal DOJ undercover agent has no authority in Nevada.

Mike
10-08-2005, 12:11 PM
I too agree that kali cops would have no authority in NV, but I would not be surprised if there was a cooperation agrement or something sought between the two state police agencies and or BATF&E as well....

On a side note, just got home from the CE Gunshow in Charlotte, debating on whether or not to go back tomorrow. Got 440rd Hungarian 7.62x54r for $30 even, and 500 of the new M855 on strippers that just hit the market for $99. Got a handful of NIB Okay Ind Restricted Use marked mags for $10 each....and I am looking really close at the $80 AK parts kits, as well as some $90 stripped Stag lowers...EBR's and standard cap mags were abundant, and the tables were busy. Only one fella selling jerky, and only one damn airsoft table too, out of more than 740 tables there. I am really itching for a FAL or three (metric mags were also $3 each), and Inter-Ord was there selling a lot of parts cheap.

http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rascal
10-08-2005, 3:15 PM
It doesn't make any differance, I can buy all the Hi-cap mags I want, as long as I don't bring them back into Kalifornia
1. It is NOT against the law for a Kali resident to buy "Hi-cap" magazines. It's only against the law to import them into Kali.
2. CalDOJ has no jurisdiction in Nevada.

stillbigmac
10-08-2005, 3:48 PM
I happen to know for a fact that CA DOJ does go to the Reno gunshow. I have no idea how much authority they have.

I have a customer that is related to their head firearms guy. When the gunshows are going on in Reno the customer will go there and have lunch with him.

dwtt
10-08-2005, 5:04 PM
Originally posted by ryang:
This is hearsay so I wanted to see if anyone else can confirm or deny.

A guy claims he went to a recent Reno gun show and witnessed literally dozens of CA residents getting arrested in the parking lot for purchasing hi-cap mags. Apparently law enforcement watched people buy hi-cap mags and followed them to the parking lot. If they had a car with CA plates they were arrested for intent to import.


This is hearsay and not very believable. The NV cops can't arrest someone when no law has been broken, and CA DOJ has no authority in NV. Also, if they had magically been given the authority to act in NV, CA DOJ agents would not get convictions since they have a very weak case. My feeling is this story is pure fantasy made up by the guy making these claims, a guy who's lonely and craves attention. He needs professional help.

Mike
10-08-2005, 5:05 PM
Originally posted by stillbigbac:
I happen to know for a fact that CA DOJ does go to the Reno gunshow. I have no idea how much authority they have.

I have a customer that is related to their head firearms guy. When the gunshows are going on in Reno the customer will go there and have lunch with him.

Damn, am I GLAD I left Kali! Even after only being there a couple years, today's show really sunk in the loss of rights suffered in kali.

Screw it, I'm going back tomorrow and getting what I was thinking about before.

Rascal
10-09-2005, 11:59 AM
Cal DOJ can go to any gun show out of state that they want, but they cannot do anything about it, as they have no jurisdiction in another state.
They could observe someone from Kali buying mags, but wouldn't be able to do anything until they came back into the state.
Unless there is an agreement between Nevada and Kali, they can't do anything.
Can anyone subtanciate an agreement between both states?

saki302
10-09-2005, 2:13 PM
I suspect this is one of those "My brother's uncle's cousin told me his friend saw a guy getting arrested in Reno" type of stories, which self-propagate, especially since most CA gun owners are pretty cautious and rightly distrustful of our politicians and DOJ.

-Dave

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-09-2005, 4:50 PM
I hope they arreast me, I could use some settlement money from the resulting civil suit.

bwiese
10-09-2005, 9:45 PM
I commented on this awhile back for those that think Wilsons are 'innocent'.

As far as Kurt & Angie Wilson (Survival Enterprises) who were busted at Big Reno show awhile back, these people may be either pulling a fast one or were just too stupid to breathe, too dumb to die. These people sell all sorts of home remedies too like collodal silver, so IMHO that's borderline fraud (but so is the 95% of the 'nutrition' industry) in & of itself.

More background from FreeRepublic thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1142214/posts

Their Survival Enterprises website used to have a long account of their travails. It's no longer there. Probably once they wrote that no good attorney would take them since they basically appear to publically and vocally self-incrimnate themselves multiple times. Their defense is essentially 'poor us, they weren't nice to us, we weren't trying to be bad'. They shoulda smelled a bad deal: when something's too good or too cheap, something's wrong.

There appears to be some 'meat' here in newspaper article copy (quoted from a quote) appended below. While I'm obviously not a supporter BATF or gun laws in general, he's not quite the poor whining choirboy being hassled by the ATF and, from the appearance of thigns, the violations were blatantly overt & egregious. I'm sure some aspects of the article are not reported correctly, but this sounds like ATF does have enough to put him away.

He shoulda known what he was doing esp with Class III stuff. At they very best, he's stupid for hyper-poor recordkeeping, not being familiar with the laws, etc.

Survival Enterprise's Wilsons even posted on this Freep thread,


...Unfortunately, all the firearms that were taken by the BATFE were going to be our retirement and further funding for our health business. Apparently, this is the manner in which our government "punishes" those who (they feel) make mistakes, or those of us that dare to speak out about the rampart corruption in our government.

I have been doing business as a Class 1 Gunsmith/Firearms Dealer for nearly 15 years. During this time I have requested that the ATF send out a Compliance Officer 4 different times. Their response was "we have no funding for training, just enforcement".

In English: we would rather you make mistakes, so we can bust you, as that's why we're here.

In my first meeting with the BATFE (after the episode in Reno), I was told that they "had their eye on me" since the Portland gun show in 1998.

SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY TELL ME THEN I WAS DOING SOMETHING WRONG SO I COULD CORRECT IT??

Well, idiot, because that's not their job! Do you think cops follow bank robbers around and 'counsel' them not to rob? No, they try to bust 'em.

And go and ask a DA or a Fed prosecutor about some minutiae in the law. 99% of time they'll tell you to ask your own attorney. That's not just labor time/budgetary, it's the way our adversarial legal system has worked for the last 200+ years.

Furthermore, in most gov't agencies the compliance assistance and PR budgets are always smaller than the law-enforcement budget.

BATF doesn't have to manufacture evidence with guys like this: they send themselves to jail quite nicely on their own.



Gun Shop Owners Released Pending Idaho Trial in July

by Dave Turner, Staff Writer
Coeur d'Alene Press

The owners of a Post Falls gun shop were arrested by agents of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives early Friday on federal firearms charges.

Kurt Wilson, 52, and Angie Wilson, 53, owners of Survival Enterprises, 4368 W. Seltice, were released on their personal recognizance after making a first appearance later Friday morning. US Magistrate Judge Mikel Williams, appearing from Boise via video, set trail for July 13 in Coeur d'Alene.

The Wilsons were two of 14 suspects arrested in a five-state sweep.

"All of the defendants were charged with dealing firearms without a license, illegal sales of firearms, possession of unregistered firearms and possession fo firearms by prohibited persons," said the ATF in a press release.

A call to the store transferred to voicemail Friday afternoon and a message seeking comment was not returned. The Wilsons were charged with three counts in Idaho and eight in Nevada. No date was set for their trial there.

In Idaho, the Wilsons are charged with possession of unregistered firearms - an AR15, a shortened 12-gauge shotgun and a machine gun.
Angie Wilson "had a license to possess all of those," said Idaho Assistant U.S. Attorney Nancy Cook. "If they were registered, it wouldn't have been illegal for them to have them."

Each of the counts carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
After they were photographed and fingerprinted by US Marshals, the couple were allowed to leave.

Cook said normally, those under felony indictment are barred from possession of firearms.

"We requested the court to waive that requirement so they could dispose of the inventory of fireman's and ammunition," Cook said.

Nevada prosecutors charged the Wilsons with eight counts of of firearm violations, most stemming from their attendance at the Big Reno gun show in August 2003.

The Wilsons were indicted on four counts of unlawful dealing at an out-of-state gun show; three counts of unlawful selling of a firearms to an out-of-state resident, which carries a maximum five years each, and one count of possession of a machine gun.

The ATF said the Wilsons were caught as part of "Operation Over the Line". Federal agents were working undercover at gun shows in Nevada the past year. Other arrests were made in Nevada, California, Utah, and Washington.

Nine of the suspects were arrested after search warrants were served Friday. Five others were already in custody as part of the investigation, said Daniel Bogden, U.S. attorney for Nevada.
"Undercover ATF agents purchased nearly 40 firearms using different Reno gun shows as the hub of activity," said John Torres, ATF special agent in charge of the San Francisco office.

"We also seized explosive at one residence in Reno today," including 10 blasting caps and 20 feet of detonating cord, he said.

[the Associated Press contributed to this report]



At the very best, a country boy just didn't read up his books on the business he's supposed to be in.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-10-2005, 1:03 AM
At the very best, a country boy just didn't read up his books on the business he's supposed to be in.

August 2003 and it's been illegal to do intra-state transfer w/o FFL since HOW long?

While I don't personally agree with the law in question, this is sorta like the local Sewer Contractor saying "Gee orficer, I didn't gee-golly KNOW it was illegal to dump Benzine into the storm drain?"

imported_EOD Guy
10-10-2005, 7:30 AM
Originally posted by artherdGROUPEESUCKS:


August 2003 and it's been illegal to do intra-state transfer w/o FFL since HOW long?



I think you meant inter-state.

G17GUY
06-05-2007, 5:27 PM
Found the summary.

http://www.survival-enterprises.com/summary.html
http://www.survival-enterprises.com/summaryupdate.html

I just realized this post is old.

five.five-six
06-05-2007, 5:37 PM
I think you meant inter-state.

thanks for stepping in for oshmiely... but he is right... don't give the brady bunch any ideas on banning intra-state transfers :)

tenpercentfirearms
06-05-2007, 5:40 PM
WOW! This thread is pre-OLL even! Actually I just had a Taft Police officer in here and he said that he heard from a guy who has a brother that is married to sister and has two kids from each that this is actually true and that about 47 people have been busted and sentenced to 50 years in jail for each magazine. I wouldn't do it if I were you.

This is kind of like when my students tell me that you shouldn't shoot someone above the waist because it is attempted murder, but you can shoot them in the legs. :confused:

Shane916
06-05-2007, 5:47 PM
This is kind of like when my students tell me that you shouldn't shoot someone above the waist because it is attempted murder, but you can shoot them in the legs. :confused:

If only it were true... :D

five.five-six
06-05-2007, 6:11 PM
WOW! This thread is pre-OLL even! Actually I just had a Taft Police officer in here and he said that he heard from a guy who has a brother that is married to sister and has two kids from each that this is actually true and that about 47 people have been busted and sentenced to 50 years in jail for each magazine. I wouldn't do it if I were you.

This is kind of like when my students tell me that you shouldn't shoot someone above the waist because it is attempted murder, but you can shoot them in the legs. :confused:


is shopkeep over there? did he steal your login? :chris:

Fjold
06-05-2007, 6:48 PM
One time at bandcamp.......

1919_4_ME
06-05-2007, 7:28 PM
I saw that they would work with Nevada police and have spotters sitting in the parking lots at those big firework stores and would bust Californians as they crossed the state line via CHP.I saw that stuff on the news so I wouldnt doubt if they started doing that in the gun show circuit.

tiki
06-05-2007, 7:29 PM
This is kind of like when my students tell me that you shouldn't shoot someone above the waist because it is attempted murder, but you can shoot them in the legs. :confused:

Ha ha ha. That kicks ***.

James R.
06-05-2007, 8:13 PM
Found the summary.

http://www.survival-enterprises.com/summary.html
http://www.survival-enterprises.com/summaryupdate.html

I just realized this post is old.

Crappy as all that is, and I read every word of it...he did break the law.

"I followed them to their warehouse later that night, wherein I was shown lots of silencers and machine guns. I told them I wasn't interested in any of that stuff but I wanted the Grease Gun (which they had shown me - it looked unfired and a perfect addition to any museum quality collection). I told them I would need to properly paper it and for them to bring it in to me, in the gun show, tomorrow. They said no, just take it with you. The one agent took it apart, put it in a ammo can and put it in my truck. I got in the truck to leave and was surrounded by Reno SWAT and lots of yelling and guns in my face. Obviously, I offered no resistance."

That last bit, I'll assume it was an NFA Grease Gun, otherwise I don't think there'd be a crime if Nevada allows P2P transfers.

Regards,

James R.

Anthonysmanifesto
06-05-2007, 9:50 PM
1:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares.

1:40 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent notices somebody purchasing a 25 round Ruger 10/22 magazine. He begins to follow that person around the show, not getting too close, but not letting him get out of sight.

2:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows his suspect out of the show hall and observes him meet up with a female and then enter the casino all-you-can-eat buffet. Should he follow the suspect into the buffet? That'll cost $13.95 and he just ate lunch three hours ago. Maybe just wait at the bar and drink a Coke? He'll still have a good view of the suspect from the bar. Yeah, a Coke it is.

3:05 PM - From his vantage point at the bar, Cal DOJ undercover agent observes the suspect and female companion leaving the all-you-can-eat buffet. He follows them first to the restrooms, and then to a bank of nickel slot machines near the main exit. The suspect's female companion is witnessed loosing close to 45¢ to a slot machine in under one minute.

3:15 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows the couple outside of the the Reno Hilton casino and into the parking lot where the suspects approach and then enter a metalic blue 2002 Buick Regal with.....UTAH PLATES!!! Doh!

3:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares...


chain of custody!!!

If I were to buy some mags, go to my hotel room, go to a buddies hotel room.

go to the blackjack tables, go to the restroom, go to the buffet, go back to my room, then go to the pool.

then go to a club, drink, go back to my buddies room, go back to my room in a cab, then my buddy I and take our own vehicles home, and I get pulled over by iggy, unless Ive got a taillight out... as I cross stateline, im not trippin

hoffmang
06-05-2007, 11:34 PM
The Zombie thread that eats your brainz...

-Gene

mark3lb
06-06-2007, 8:57 AM
What if the Californian has a vacation home in Nevada and a Nevada State ID card, then they couldn't do jack against him. Maybe he has a safe in his vacation home and plans to only mags in NV, then that's totally legal.

I have heard stories of them waiting for Californians to leave the gun show and return to California with hi caps, which is a stupid way to get in trouble and mess up for life for stupid mags, but I have never heard the "intent to import" way of busting people, but anything is possible. When you follow the laws, you don't have to worry about stuff like that.

Okami
06-06-2007, 9:14 AM
thanks for stepping in for oshmiely... :smilielol5:
:lurk5::wheelchair:

1911_sfca
06-06-2007, 9:47 AM
chain of custody!!!

If I were to buy some mags, go to my hotel room, go to a buddies hotel room.

go to the blackjack tables, go to the restroom, go to the buffet, go back to my room, then go to the pool.

then go to a club, drink, go back to my buddies room, go back to my room in a cab, then my buddy I and take our own vehicles home, and I get pulled over by iggy, unless Ive got a taillight out... as I cross stateline, im not trippin

Yup.. they would have to do a good job of developing P.C. to stop and P.C. (or consent.. muahaha) for a search.

I have heard these stories that they go to the Reno show and then bust people at the state line coming back into Cali. Probably not too hard to get PC for a stop -- many people speed on I-80. Just a question of how to get into the trunk without violating the 4th amendment.

1064chubbs
06-06-2007, 9:53 AM
1:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares.

1:40 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent notices somebody purchasing a 25 round Ruger 10/22 magazine. He begins to follow that person around the show, not getting too close, but not letting him get out of sight.

2:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows his suspect out of the show hall and observes him meet up with a female and then enter the casino all-you-can-eat buffet. Should he follow the suspect into the buffet? That'll cost $13.95 and he just ate lunch three hours ago. Maybe just wait at the bar and drink a Coke? He'll still have a good view of the suspect from the bar. Yeah, a Coke it is.

3:05 PM - From his vantage point at the bar, Cal DOJ undercover agent observes the suspect and female companion leaving the all-you-can-eat buffet. He follows them first to the restrooms, and then to a bank of nickel slot machines near the main exit. The suspect's female companion is witnessed loosing close to 45¢ to a slot machine in under one minute.

3:15 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent follows the couple outside of the the Reno Hilton casino and into the parking lot where the suspects approach and then enter a metalic blue 2002 Buick Regal with.....UTAH PLATES!!! Doh!

3:30 PM - Cal DOJ undercover agent stands in front of a high-cap magazine vendor's table at the Big Reno Show, pretending to browse through the wares...

HAHAHA thats the reason no cops are going to follow anyone around and they wouldnt have jurisdiction

leelaw
06-06-2007, 10:15 AM
HAHAHA thats the reason no cops are going to follow anyone around and they wouldnt have jurisdiction

Plus it isn't illegal to purchase full capacity magazines out of state. Not until you physically transport them (while fully assembled) into California does it become a crime.

schizrade2
06-06-2007, 10:44 AM
NHP, WCS, RPD, Nevada in general cares not a lick what you buy here as long as it is legal HERE.

CaliDOJ would have a hard time doing much here.

enchantor
06-06-2007, 10:59 AM
If I'm not mistaken, it looks like about 20+ people have posted the same answer over and over again... Is that really necessary????

hdcd
06-06-2007, 11:08 AM
If I'm not mistaken, it looks like about 20+ people have posted the same answer over and over again... Is that really necessary????

Well ya don't have to keep reading the thread either:beatdeadhorse5::beatdeadhorse5:

schizrade2
06-06-2007, 12:45 PM
If I'm not mistaken, it looks like about 20+ people have posted the same answer over and over again... Is that really necessary????

Well the question comes up every month on here.

glockman19
06-06-2007, 9:20 PM
You can legally bring in dis assembled complete mags into CA as repair kits.