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View Full Version : Saw this on craigslist...


sfwdiy
10-31-2009, 3:25 PM
http://web.me.com/sfwdiy/xd/glock.jpg

This is an example of unknowing owners potentially becoming accidental criminals. Hopefully Calguns outreach will help to further minimize this kind of thing.

I emailed him and told him to take down his post.

--B

audihenry
10-31-2009, 3:39 PM
Or he knew all too well?

Lyte-
10-31-2009, 6:23 PM
what is a boostberry?

TheCilician
10-31-2009, 6:38 PM
just take it from him, auction it for CGF, and take it out of the potential hands of idiot criminals.

Lyte-
10-31-2009, 6:41 PM
might be a setup

Mike's Custom
10-31-2009, 6:43 PM
might be a setup


Exactly what I am thinking. And I know they do this.

Fjold
10-31-2009, 6:47 PM
might be a setup

What setup?

It's not illegal to buy high capacity magazines.

joepamjohn
10-31-2009, 7:27 PM
What setup?

It's not illegal to buy high capacity magazines.

I think it is in California

sfwdiy
10-31-2009, 7:28 PM
He emailed me back and thanked me for letting him know, he just moved here from South Carolina. I referred him here, hopefully he joins the forum!

--B

sfwdiy
10-31-2009, 7:30 PM
I think it is in California

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Not illegal to purchase. However, doing so may make you an accessory to the crime of selling or offering for sale. This hasn't been legally tested, and I don't want to be the one to do it.

--B

Mike's Custom
10-31-2009, 7:56 PM
Buying is a part of transfering ownership.

Fjold
10-31-2009, 9:16 PM
Buying is a part of transfering ownership.

The law doesn't say "transfer of ownership" it says:

....manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

It's also not illegal to borrow or receive one as a gift. The law is written to penalize the person who imports or delivers magazines, not the person who receives them.

The Director
10-31-2009, 9:40 PM
It's irrelevant because all that would need to happen is have them taken apart and called rebuild kits then it's perfectly legal......because you have preban mags you need to rebuild.

C-Los
11-04-2009, 3:38 AM
The law doesn't say "transfer of ownership" it says:

....manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

It's also not illegal to borrow or receive one as a gift. The law is written to penalize the person who imports or delivers magazines, not the person who receives them.

what about bartering?

100 "roses"?;) any takers?

C-Los
11-04-2009, 3:39 AM
whats meant by 'keep for sale', isnt that an oxymoron?

Soldier415
11-04-2009, 3:44 AM
Craigslist. The gathering place for enlightened intellectuals and MENSA members...

Barabas
11-04-2009, 9:18 AM
Craigslist. The gathering place for enlightened intellectuals and MENSA members...

Haha! I know two MENSA members who trawl the personals on Craigslist religiously, hoping to find their soulmates. One thought he found his soulmate, but discovered it was just herpes that he gets to live with forever.

Mike's Custom
11-04-2009, 4:45 PM
The law doesn't say "transfer of ownership" it says:

....manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

It's also not illegal to borrow or receive one as a gift. The law is written to penalize the person who imports or delivers magazines, not the person who receives them.


Wrong! It is illegal to TRANSFER, including giving as a GIFT.

CA Dept. DOJ
Bureau of Firearms
Notice
Dec. 31, 2000

(First line of this document)
Effective January 1. 2000, the manufacture, importation, sale or TRANSFER of any large capacity firearms magazines. except to specifically designated parties and under certain conditions (including law enforcement use, loans for service/repair, et al.) is prohibited by law.

CA DOJ BoF Penal Code Statues Pertaining to Large-Capacity Magazines Effective Jan, 31,2002

12020 (a) Any person in this state who does ANY of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(2)Commencing Jan 1,2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who GIVES, or LENDS, any large-capacity magazine.

QUOTE=Caiman;3313331]I would have bought them had the price been much lower. Nothing wrong/illegal with buying hi-caps in state. That way, I could own hi caps legally.[/QUOTE]

You are wrong also. Read above.

ELEVENTH HOUR
11-04-2009, 4:49 PM
what is a boostberry?

http://boostberry.com/

Diabolus
11-04-2009, 5:32 PM
what about bartering?

100 "roses"?;) any takers?


I see what you did there!!

Fjold
11-04-2009, 5:46 PM
Wrong! It is illegal to TRANSFER, including giving as a GIFT.

CA Dept. DOJ
Bureau of Firearms
Notice
Dec. 31, 2000

(First line of this document)
Effective January 1. 2000, the manufacture, importation, sale or TRANSFER of any large capacity firearms magazines. except to specifically designated parties and under certain conditions (including law enforcement use, loans for service/repair, et al.) is prohibited by law.

CA DOJ BoF Peanal Code Statues Pertaining to Large-Capacity Magazines Effective Jan, 31,2002

12020 (a) Any person in this state who does ANY of hte following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(2)Commencing Jan 1,2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who GIVES, or LENDS, any large-capacity magazine.

QUOTE=Caiman;3313331]I would have bought them had the price been much lower. Nothing wrong/illegal with buying hi-caps in state. That way, I could own hi caps legally.

You are wrong also. Read above.[/QUOTE]





Mike,

You're not reading what I posted. I said that it is not illegal to buy one or receive one as a gift.

The law as you quote it above makes it illegal to sell, give, lend, import, manufacture, etc. but the law doesn't punish anyone who buys or receives one as a gift, loan, etc. It only addresses the actions of the person who makes, imports, sells, offers for sale, gives or lends it.

CSACANNONEER
11-04-2009, 5:55 PM
Wrong! It is illegal to TRANSFER, including giving as a GIFT.

CA Dept. DOJ
Bureau of Firearms
Notice
Dec. 31, 2000

(First line of this document)
Effective January 1. 2000, the manufacture, importation, sale or TRANSFER of any large capacity firearms magazines. except to specifically designated parties and under certain conditions (including law enforcement use, loans for service/repair, et al.) is prohibited by law.

CA DOJ BoF Peanal Code Statues Pertaining to Large-Capacity Magazines Effective Jan, 31,2002

12020 (a) Any person in this state who does ANY of hte following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(2)Commencing Jan 1,2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who GIVES, or LENDS, any large-capacity magazine.

QUOTE=Caiman;3313331]I would have bought them had the price been much lower. Nothing wrong/illegal with buying hi-caps in state. That way, I could own hi caps legally.

You are wrong also. Read above.

Please show me where in the law it states that it is illegal to "transfer" +10 round mags. You need to stop, reread the law carefully and not insert your own idea of what the law was intended to say. Instead, read what it does say. Nowhere does it state that it is illegal to buy or receive +10 round mags in Ca.

Dangerpin
11-04-2009, 6:33 PM
Aren't there two parties in any transfer? I'm not a legal expert, just thinking that word alone might be a stumbling block.

sv_1
11-04-2009, 7:29 PM
I purchased a pile of magazines from a craigslist guy who was offering them for sale whole. I asked him to take them apart and toss the followers in the trash before I payed or picked them up, that way there would be no questions that they were for parts only.

He seemed really grateful that I called to explain that he was breaking the law the way he advertised them. He had no idea.

jarhead995
11-04-2009, 8:40 PM
Wrong! It is illegal to TRANSFER, including giving as a GIFT.

CA Dept. DOJ
Bureau of Firearms
Notice
Dec. 31, 2000

(First line of this document)
Effective January 1. 2000, the manufacture, importation, sale or TRANSFER of any large capacity firearms magazines. except to specifically designated parties and under certain conditions (including law enforcement use, loans for service/repair, et al.) is prohibited by law.

CA DOJ BoF Peanal Code Statues Pertaining to Large-Capacity Magazines Effective Jan, 31,2002

12020 (a) Any person in this state who does ANY of hte following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(2)Commencing Jan 1,2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who GIVES, or LENDS, any large-capacity magazine.

QUOTE=Caiman;3313331]I would have bought them had the price been much lower. Nothing wrong/illegal with buying hi-caps in state. That way, I could own hi caps legally.

You are wrong also. Read above.[/QUOTE]


I CALL BULLS**T the is spelled wrong..

kellito
11-04-2009, 9:07 PM
CA DOJ BoF PENAL Code STATUTES Pertaining to Large-Capacity Magazines Effective Jan, 31,2002



as long as we are fixing spelling....

snobord99
11-04-2009, 9:34 PM
Mike,

You're not reading what I posted. I said that it is not illegal to buy one or receive one as a gift.

The law as you quote it above makes it illegal to sell, give, lend, import, manufacture, etc. but the law doesn't punish anyone who buys or receives one as a gift, loan, etc. It only addresses the actions of the person who makes, imports, sells, offers for sale, gives or lends it.

In all fairness, he didn't fully disagree with you. He says "Wrong! It is illegal to TRANSFER, including giving as a GIFT." So he basically does say it's illegal to be the transferor, but I don't see where he says it's illegal to be the transferee. Of course you could argue that that can be implied by his saying "Wrong!"

Dr Rockso
11-04-2009, 10:21 PM
Just to inject some dissent, courtesy of bwiese in other similar threads:

WRONG. DON'T DO THIS.

Someone offering or exposing for sale the hicap (in other than one of the few exempt manners) would make the transaction illegal.

There are no such things as "legal half-transactions".

And they keep repeating it no matter how much we refute it. Somehow they believe "half transactions" can be illegal with the other half legal.

While some of the above posters insist that buying, selling, lending but not import after 1/1/2000 is not illegal, law does not allow "half-crimes" in CA where part of transaction is legal but the other half isn't. Much akin to knowingly receiving money from a bank robbery even though raw money itself is legal to possess :) Don't go there.

The half-legal theory strikes me as being pretty flimsy.

pdq_wizzard
11-04-2009, 10:23 PM
It seems to me the biggest thing with standard mags is we can't get them anymore (just what you had before 2k) and it just makes people want to have them more.

I have some but don't use them because ammo it too $$$ and I don't have as much time to reload right now.

snobord99
11-05-2009, 6:10 AM
The half-legal theory strikes me as being pretty flimsy.

I disagree. I think he's right. I've never seen anything like a "half-legal transaction." A transaction is either legal or it is not. Where he's DEAD wrong is his instance that "transaction" is somehow the operative word.

Mike's Custom
11-05-2009, 12:13 PM
Sorry for spelling errors, I had to type it out. Yes, I should have run it through SPELL CHECK.

This can be found in the DOJ Firearms page under FAQ:

9. [b]If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California
before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for
sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California
peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

So, according to the above it is illegal to transfer Hi-cap mags. In the cases listed above, give, lend, sale, a TRANSFER of ownership is taking place. If you go to the penal code above you can read the full text.

I have done gun shows for years (I stopped 4 years ago) and I watched the DOJ arrest people and sieze inventories including a motorhome used to transport Hi-Caps as well as individuals transfering them to other individuals at gun shows in Bakersfield and Fresno since Jan. 1, 2000.

snobord99
11-05-2009, 1:42 PM
Sorry for spelling errors, I had to type it out. Yes, I should have run it through SPELL CHECK.

This can be found in the DOJ Firearms page under FAQ:

9. [b]If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California
before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for
sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California
peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

So, according to the above it is illegal to transfer Hi-cap mags. In the cases listed above, give, lend, sale, a TRANSFER of ownership is taking place. If you go to the penal code above you can read the full text.

I have done gun shows for years (I stopped 4 years ago) and I watched the DOJ arrest people and sieze inventories including a motorhome used to transport Hi-Caps as well as individuals transfering them to other individuals at gun shows in Bakersfield and Fresno since Jan. 1, 2000.

I don't think you understand what everyone is saying. It is illegal to sell hi-cap mags, but not illegal to buy it (assuming it's already in the state).

Cal Penal Code 12020(a)(2) says: "Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine." (Note first that nowhere in there does the word "transfer" appear) I'll break it down for you one by one:


Manufactures: a seller might manufacture, but a buyer certainly does not.
Causes to be manufactured: again, maybe the seller does. There's an argument that by buying it, you're causing it to be manufactured, but that's a very weak connection and I highly doubt it would be interpreted that way by any court.
Imports into the state: a seller may have imported it, but the buyer doesn't (again, assuming the mag was already in the state).
Keeps for sale: seller, yes, they probably had it for at least one second where they said "I'm going to sell it" so that will probably qualify as "keeping for sale"; buyer is not selling or keeping for sale, they're purchasing it.
Offers: seller, yes, probably; buyer is not offering it unless you're arguing that they're offering to buy it. That probably won't be the interpretation since the text of the statute makes it pretty clear that what they're preventing is the sale, not the purchase of magazines.
Exposes for sale: seller, yes; buyer, no, they're not exposing it for sale. They're buying it.
Gives: seller, yes; buyer, not, they're receiving, not giving.
Lends: seller, no, they're selling, not lending; buyer, no, they're receiving, not lending.


And even in the DOJ FAQ you're citing, the word "transfer" does not appear anywhere. They use basically the same words used in the statute (if not the same).

Conclusion:
Seller: prison? Maybe.
Buyer: prison? No. Not illegal.

Mike's Custom
11-05-2009, 5:03 PM
I under stand it completely. But you can't BUY one if no one can SELL one. So, if selling one is a crime the buying one is aiding and abetting in a crime. It couls also be construed as a conspiray to commit a crime. But hey, buy one if you want to.

CSACANNONEER
11-05-2009, 9:05 PM
I under stand it completely. But you can't BUY one if no one can SELL one. So, if selling one is a crime the buying one is aiding and abetting in a crime. It couls also be construed as a conspiray to commit a crime. But hey, buy one if you want to.

That is why no one here will advise anyone to try this. You're right that buying COULD be construed as a conspiracy but, the actual act of buying, in and of itself, is not illegal under Ca law.

WeekendWarrior
11-06-2009, 3:01 PM
WWRTW

trickyvic
11-06-2009, 3:20 PM
This thread is very enlightening. I didn't know it wasn't illegal to purchase them, I still wouldn't take the chance.

RideIcon
12-26-2009, 5:01 PM
might be a setup

I think it is in California

No its not!

longarmshortlegs
12-27-2009, 1:10 AM
9. If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California
before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, [B]it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for
sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California
peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

That's what caught my eye (despite the absence in the penal code).

okimreloaded
12-27-2009, 9:12 AM
BUT it is not illegal to find. HAHA