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mattmansacto
10-31-2009, 9:29 AM
I need some help with my AW. I have an AR-15 that I resgisterd with the DOJ in 1999 for SB-23. The question is, can I have a flash hider on my new ar upper? (Every time I talk to DOJ they give different answers, sometimes they say it is ok and others dont know). I just picked up a Larue 16 inch stealth with the flash hider and I do not want to get into trouble. I always carry my paper work with me from DOJ stating it is a registered assault weapon. Thank you for the help.

Mr.Pickles
10-31-2009, 9:32 AM
its already a registered AW. I think you are GTG. Does not matter what features you have because its is already a registered AW.

DiscoBayJoe
10-31-2009, 9:44 AM
Hey Matt,

Once the Federal Ban ended in 2004, those restrictions were lifted.

Since your lower is registered, you can have all the evil features you want! Pistol Grip, High-Cap (that you legally owned before 2000), Collapsible Stock, Flash Hider, etc!

Trick it out and post a pic!

bomb_on_bus
10-31-2009, 9:45 AM
looks like christmas came early for someone this year!

mattmansacto
10-31-2009, 9:48 AM
Thanks for the help, I will post pics. I should get it next week, however, I am saving up for an acog or NXS 2-10 compact.

Matt

Beelzy
10-31-2009, 9:55 AM
You can even put a 50BMG upper on it.

dieselpower
10-31-2009, 10:29 AM
You can even put a 50BMG upper on it.

Are you sure about that????>

When we registered our firearms we listed what caliber it was in. When received a letter back stating the weapon was now a RAW with the DoJ it stated :
1) the manufacturer
2) the type
3) the caliber
4) the serial number

If you change one of those things, the DA can say you have a new unregistered firearm.

Caution and logic are both needed here. Can you point me to a line of thought suggesting I can alter my RAW outside of its registered characteristics without breaking the law? I can see changing it to fire .22lr since that is not an AW, and still within the same caliber, but once I go to a center-fire well outside the original caliber....how is this deemed legal.

EDIT>>>>A firearm registered before 2005, which is later defined as a .50 BMG is conciderd still registered under the law....so its cool to change any RAW to .50 BMG

mds2004
10-31-2009, 10:29 AM
You can even put a 50BMG upper on it.

I dont think so right? I remember there being a deadline for registering .50BMGs by July of 05 or somewhere around then. Maybe that did not count for RAWs?

JPB
10-31-2009, 10:30 AM
You can even put a 50BMG upper on it.

I don't think that's true. The AW and 50BMG registrations are different. 50s aren't considered "AWs", they're considered ".50 BMGs".

redcliff
10-31-2009, 10:54 AM
I don't think that's true. The AW and 50BMG registrations are different. 50s aren't considered "AWs", they're considered ".50 BMGs".

Incorrect.

From DOJ's websight:

What is considered a .50 BMG Rifle under California law?
A .50 BMG rifle is defined as a centerfire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code sections 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5 PC, or a machinegun as defined by Penal Code section 12200. These sections of law may be accessed on this website’s on-line Dangerous Weapons Control Laws.

Since r.a.w.'s are already assault weapons theres no prohibition to converting them to .50 bmg.

ke6guj
10-31-2009, 10:56 AM
Incorrect.

From DOJ's websight:

What is considered a .50 BMG Rifle under California law?
A .50 BMG rifle is defined as a centerfire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code sections 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5 PC, or a machinegun as defined by Penal Code section 12200. These sections of law may be accessed on this website’s on-line Dangerous Weapons Control Laws.

Since r.a.w.'s are already assault weapons theres no prohibition to converting them to .50 bmg.THIS.

mds2004
10-31-2009, 11:01 AM
Now why couldn't I have been conceived 4 years earlier?!

Mr.Pickles
10-31-2009, 11:13 AM
Now why couldn't I have been conceived 4 years earlier?!

agreed I too wish this.

dieselpower
10-31-2009, 11:17 AM
Incorrect.

From DOJ's websight:

What is considered a .50 BMG Rifle under California law?
A .50 BMG rifle is defined as a centerfire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code sections 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5 PC, or a machinegun as defined by Penal Code section 12200. These sections of law may be accessed on this website’s on-line Dangerous Weapons Control Laws.

Since r.a.w.'s are already assault weapons theres no prohibition to converting them to .50 bmg.

This just tells me the weapon in question does not fall into the 50 BMG laws....not that I am allowed to alter the original characteristics of my RAW.

Ok you now showed me I can put a 50 BMG upper on my .223 RAW and that the firearm count not be defined as a .50 BMG.

Now show me I can change the configuration of my RAW.
1) If my lower breaks, can I get a new lower issued with a different serial number?

2) Can I buy a lower from another company if my original lower breaks and still have it a RAW?

3) Can I change my .223 RAW rifle to a 9mm Pistol? ( hahaha)

If my letter of RAW didn't specifically state my caliber was .233, I wouldn't have an issue. My F.U.D. is the AG and 58 DAs think differently then we do...

mattmansacto
10-31-2009, 11:24 AM
Wow I never thought of getting the 50 bmg till now!! My wife will not be happy.

Jonathan Doe
10-31-2009, 11:26 AM
You cannot make it any more assault weapon than what it is now. As afr as the assault weapon law is concrned, you can put any upper on a registered lower.

ALBERT
10-31-2009, 11:28 AM
if the gun is registered as an assualt rifle then it does not matter what caliber or barrel lenght it has or any added features plain and simple its registered allready!!!!

ke6guj
10-31-2009, 11:34 AM
This just tells me the weapon in question does not fall into the 50 BMG laws....not that I am allowed to alter the original characteristics of my RAW.

Ok you now showed me I can put a 50 BMG upper on my .223 RAW and that the firearm count not be defined as a .50 BMG.

Now show me I can change the configuration of my RAW.
1) If my lower breaks, can I get a new lower issued with a different serial number?

2) Can I buy a lower from another company if my original lower breaks and still have it a RAW?

3) Can I change my .223 RAW rifle to a 9mm Pistol? ( hahaha)

If my letter of RAW didn't specifically state my caliber was .233, I wouldn't have an issue. My F.U.D. is the AG and 58 DAs think differently then we do...

Show me where it says you can't change the configuration of your RAW.

The caliber and length specifications on your AW paperwork are not binding. In fact, some people have AW letters that have 8888 entered for caliber and length, as a way to try to show that they have multiple uppers.




As for your questions, #1 and #2 are NO, because they would be different firearm, RAW status is attached to the specific lower.. #3 is also no because you would have created an SBR without permission.

dieselpower
10-31-2009, 11:36 AM
if the gun is registered as an assualt rifle then it does not matter what caliber or barrel lenght it has or any added features plain and simple its registered allready!!!!


No. have you guys ever seen a letter of RAW?

it is EXTREMLY specific. Again...it specifically states; Make / Model / Serial number / Type / Caliber.

Why do you think you can reconfigure the firearm OUTSIDE of those listed Characteristics?

dieselpower
10-31-2009, 11:41 AM
Show me where it says you can't change the configuration of your RAW.

The caliber and length specifications on your AW paperwork are not binding. In fact, some people have AW letters that have 8888 entered for caliber and length, as a way to try to show that they have multiple uppers.




As for your questions, #1 and #2 are NO, because they would be different firearm, RAW status is attached to the specific lower.. #3 is also no because you would have created an SBR without permission.


I agree if the Caliber is listed a 88888 signifying multi-caliber, then that good. I am with you there, since my letter list "Rifle" for all when in fact some are CARBINES.

This is a great legal strategy AFTER the bust and when you are fighting it in court. I am asking for more then a strategy, but a ruling or letter where the AG / DoJ DoF/ or a DA has stated a listed Caliber is not written in stone.

ke6guj
10-31-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't need a letter or ruling from CADOJ telling me what is legal, only that which is illegal.

Look at the PC, does it say anywhere where a reconfigured RAW is no longer a RAW? The AW regs offer an exemption for those with RAWs. It doesn't say "RAWs that are in the listed configuration".



If you are looking for additional paperwork so that you can paperflood the LEO to keep him from arresting you, I don't know if you are gonna find it.

dieselpower
10-31-2009, 12:00 PM
I don't need a letter or ruling from CADOJ telling me what is legal, only that which is illegal.

Look at the PC, does it say anywhere where a reconfigured RAW is no longer a RAW? The AW regs offer an exemption for those with RAWs. It doesn't say "RAWs that are in the listed configuration".



If you are looking for additional paperwork so that you can paperflood the LEO to keep him from arresting you, I don't know if you are gonna find it.


I was on the roof of my house, I looked down and had some FUD about jumping off to the ground.

Sometimes FUD = common sense
If my letter didn't state Caliber, I would be with you 100% and jump. As it stands I will not subject my check book, family and freedom to "it didn't say I couldn't" defense.

Waterfowler
10-31-2009, 3:16 PM
Even though it doesn't state barrel length on the DOJ letter I got back from them, I could have sworn they asked for barrel length on the form I submitted to them. Anyone else remember if they asked for barrel length?

CSDGuy
10-31-2009, 3:37 PM
The Penal Code and Code of Regulations say nothing about requiring that a RAW stay in any specific configuration. As long as you don't put it into another prohibited condition (SBR or MG for instance), you can change it around till your heart's content. It's a Registered Assault Weapon. Period. It can have all the "evil" features you could ever want on it... because it's RAW, it's not illegal for it to have those features... think about it.

Oh, and with your RAW, don't put a Bullet Button on it... otherwise you're limiting your magazine capacity to only 10... assuming you already legally possess magazines with >10 round capacity...

mattmansacto
10-31-2009, 3:45 PM
Ttrust me, I stocked up on those in 1999. I can remember they costed 29.99 per mag for mil spec aluminum one.

I thought they asked for barrel length, but the letter only says serial #, make, model of lower, type=rifle, and caliber of lower=223.

ke6guj
10-31-2009, 4:08 PM
Oh, and with your RAW, don't put a Bullet Button on it... otherwise you're limiting your magazine capacity to only 10... assuming you already legally possess magazines with >10 round capacity...If you do have a RAW, you can put a BB on it and use 11+ round magazines if you wanted to. Why you'd want to, I dunno, but it is legal.

Waterfowler
10-31-2009, 4:17 PM
Ttrust me, I stocked up on those in 1999. I can remember they costed 29.99 per mag for mil spec aluminum one.

I thought they asked for barrel length, but the letter only says serial #, make, model of lower, type=rifle, and caliber of lower=223.

I think they did ask for barrel length, I am almost positive because I remember having listed both my ARs as 20" and regretted not putting 16" for one.

Also Auction Arms had one seller selling Adventure Line GI mags 5/$100 and Thermo-Molds for $25/ea all through 1999. The GI mags weren't what almost made me go broke, it was the Glock mags going for $40 for the ProMags and $125 for the used factory mags. In hindsight I should have sold most of my dozen or so 50rd Ruger 10/22 mags, I bought them for $11.99/ea at the GW show in Pomona and could have sold them for $100/ea in 1999 and up to $150 out-of-state in 2003. After the 04 ban expiration they dropped back down to normal.

ke6guj
10-31-2009, 4:26 PM
I think they did ask for barrel length, I am almost positive because I remember having listed both my ARs as 20" and regretted not putting 16" for one.
they did.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu212/ke6guj/awreg2ablanksmnl1.jpg
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu212/ke6guj/awreg2bblanksmth1.jpg

Sniper3142
10-31-2009, 7:02 PM
No. have you guys ever seen a letter of RAW?

it is EXTREMLY specific. Again...it specifically states; Make / Model / Serial number / Type / Caliber.

Why do you think you can reconfigure the firearm OUTSIDE of those listed Characteristics?

YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG

I have several RAWs and while the caliber IS listed on the paperwork, you can still change it to WHATEVER you want. There is also NO configuration info on the paperwork.

Many people with RAWs asked the CA DOJ about adding various calibers to our registration paperwork and some of us even tried to. We found out that caliber on a RAW doesn't matter.

:mad:

Stop spreading FUD.



Matt,
Feel free to modify your RAW as You see fit and enjoy.

SJgunguy24
10-31-2009, 7:09 PM
You can even put a 50BMG upper on it.
You do have a Reg AW so please be as Evil as humanly possible.......it for the childern:43:

akjunkie
10-31-2009, 7:58 PM
they did.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu212/ke6guj/awreg2ablanksmnl1.jpg
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu212/ke6guj/awreg2bblanksmth1.jpg



Wow Man, that form brings back alot of memories.

I filled out more than 1 form:D

akjunkie
10-31-2009, 8:02 PM
Are you sure about that????>

When we registered our firearms we listed what caliber it was in. When received a letter back stating the weapon was now a RAW with the DoJ it stated :
1) the manufacturer
2) the type
3) the caliber
4) the serial number

If you change one of those things, the DA can say you have a new unregistered firearm.

Caution and logic are both needed here. Can you point me to a line of thought suggesting I can alter my RAW outside of its registered characteristics without breaking the law? I can see changing it to fire .22lr since that is not an AW, and still within the same caliber, but once I go to a center-fire well outside the original caliber....how is this deemed legal.


This topic was discussed In Depth several years back during the 50BMG Registration.

IF U got a Registered AW under SB23, (in regards to ARs) U can change it from a 223 > 9mm, 6.8, 50BMG, etc.

If it was cheap and feasible i changed my 1927 Thompson from a 45 to 9mm cause ammo is so freaking expensive.

IRONWILL
10-31-2009, 8:07 PM
What if you have a reg 50 lower can you swap it out to 223,9mm etc and have all evil bells u want ?

mattmansacto
10-31-2009, 8:10 PM
I am so happy it is like Christmas mourning. So many things so little money.

CSDGuy
10-31-2009, 8:11 PM
If you do have a RAW, you can put a BB on it and use 11+ round magazines if you wanted to. Why you'd want to, I dunno, but it is legal.
Yep... you're right. I was thinking that the fixed mag issue was in a separate portion of the penal code... Still, if you got a RAW, don't put a Bullet Button on it... Because you don't have to!!!!!

Eagle Five Zero
10-31-2009, 8:12 PM
Raise your right hand. Repeat after me. THIS is NOT an 'Assault Weapon'. It is a semi-automatic sport utility rifle. An assault weapon is automatic. ... Now, go play.

akjunkie
10-31-2009, 8:18 PM
What if you have a reg 50 lower can you swap it out to 223,9mm etc and have all evil bells u want ?

If U are referring to the 50BMG registration the answer is NO.

Omega13device
10-31-2009, 9:08 PM
No. have you guys ever seen a letter of RAW?

it is EXTREMLY specific. Again...it specifically states; Make / Model / Serial number / Type / Caliber.

Why do you think you can reconfigure the firearm OUTSIDE of those listed Characteristics?

You need to read the penal code. There's nothing in the PC that says you can't change the characteristics.

The letter simply says what you listed as the characteristics at the time you registered. It doesn't lock you into anything. If you think it does, please cite the penal code or the language from the letter that you're referring to.

BTW...here's the FAQ on registered AWs that I put together a while ago: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=197295

SJgunguy24
10-31-2009, 9:16 PM
Raise your right hand. Repeat after me. THIS is NOT an 'Assault Weapon'. It is a semi-automatic sport utility rifle. An assault weapon is automatic. ... Now, go play.

I always ask if they are so comfortable using Nazi terminoligy, what do they call Jewish people? How about blacks, hispanics, asians, mentally handicapped, or anyone not just like them?

Beelzy
11-01-2009, 7:30 AM
I am so happy it is like Christmas mourning. So many things so little money.


Love the Fruedian slip.......;)

Lest one forget what a well dressed AW looks like:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c82/beelzy/CAR15b.jpg

Hmm, can't tell you why it's fuzzy here.

dieselpower
11-01-2009, 9:00 AM
All I am seeing is a bunch of guys on a website saying it's ok.

Please explain your logic to me. Yes, it is FUD. FUD is a good thing, since it keeps you out of trouble. Now please replace my FUD with sound logical interpretation of the RAW policy.

If it is true, that someone asked the DoJ if it was ok to swap calibers, then there is a letter somewhere. Show it to me.

If true, this is the first LEGAL document, issued by a controlling government agency, that allows the register the right to change the characteristics of the item without filing another registration form.

Just show me where the logic of this comes from. If you are just going to post some flame crap at me, don't bother.

-hanko
11-01-2009, 9:29 AM
All I am seeing is a bunch of guys on a website saying it's ok.

Please explain your logic to me. Yes, it is FUD. FUD is a good thing, since it keeps you out of trouble. Now please replace my FUD with sound logical interpretation of the RAW policy.

If it is true, that someone asked the DoJ if it was ok to swap calibers, then there is a letter somewhere. Show it to me.

If true, this is the first LEGAL document, issued by a controlling government agency, that allows the register the right to change the characteristics of the item without filing another registration form.

Just show me where the logic of this comes from. If you are just going to post some flame crap at me, don't bother.
No flame crap here.;)

FYI, the law lists what is ILLEGAL; it does not list what is LEGAL. Ergo, if the law does not prohibit something, then that something is legal.

You may be laboring under a little too much tinfoil...:TFH:. If so, the doj as put you into the fud zone:eek:.

hth

-hanko

Beelzy
11-01-2009, 9:54 AM
The DOJ only cares about the part of the firearm with the serial number and specific name.

That info is on the Lower, not the Upper. DOJ knows what they CAN enforce,
and it's only control of the Lowers.

It's like the stupid magazine law, they can't regulate posession but control
the sale which is Verboten. Simple thinking here prevails.

dieselpower
11-01-2009, 10:50 AM
No flame crap here.;)

FYI, the law lists what is ILLEGAL; it does not list what is LEGAL. Ergo, if the law does not prohibit something, then that something is legal.

You may be laboring under a little too much tinfoil...:TFH:. If so, the doj as put you into the fud zone:eek:.

hth

-hanko

Ok, just for the record here...that is not true. Laws and regulations state both what is legal and illegal under them. Not all situations are addressed, but they are written and interpreted for reasonable people to conclude answers to questions not addressed.

Case in point....I found my own answer on the RAW can be converted to .50 legally.

(2) Any person who legally registered a firearm as an assault
weapon pursuant to the provisions of law in effect prior to January
1, 2005, where the assault weapon is thereafter defined as a .50
caliber BMG rifle pursuant to Section 12278, shall be deemed to have
registered the weapon for purposes of this chapter and shall not be
required to re-register the weapon pursuant to this section

I also looked over the CCR and found the DOJ was asked about barrel lengths and they said, "its ok to change the length of a barrel to comply with safety or other laws..." They were also asked about address changes and firearms modifications, they replied by only addressing the address change and stating the information didn't need to be updated, but would be updated if sent in to them.

This does leave the door open to a legal defense, but as a hard fast policy, i am still not sold on changing a RAW defined as a .223 to a 9mm or .45.

So you see the regulations do in fact tell you what is illegal as well as legal....just not all the time.

I retract my statement that "a RAW can not be converted to .50 legally". The regulation addresses this and it is in fact legal.

Omega13device
11-01-2009, 7:12 PM
Ok, just for the record here...that is not true. Laws and regulations state both what is legal and illegal under them. Not all situations are addressed, but they are written and interpreted for reasonable people to conclude answers to questions not addressed.

Not really. For example the penal code says you can have an registered assault weapon at a shooting range. What should we infer from that about what we can legally do with it there? Can we shoot targets that are 100 yards away or only 50 yards? How many rounds can I load in the magazine? What kind of sights can I use, only irons or is a red dot ok? When I carry it around which way should I point the muzzle? As you can see there are an infinite number of situations and actions that are not covered at all by the penal code.

The PC does list out exceptions and I think that's what you're referring to. For example there are lots of exceptions to the PC regarding concealed carry and loaded carry that list out specific situations where you (or "special" people) can do those things legally. But listing exceptions isn't the same as listing everything that's legal.

dieselpower
11-02-2009, 7:03 PM
Not really. For example the penal code says you can have an registered assault weapon at a shooting range. What should we infer from that about what we can legally do with it there? Can we shoot targets that are 100 yards away or only 50 yards? How many rounds can I load in the magazine? What kind of sights can I use, only irons or is a red dot ok? When I carry it around which way should I point the muzzle? As you can see there are an infinite number of situations and actions that are not covered at all by the penal code.

The PC does list out exceptions and I think that's what you're referring to. For example there are lots of exceptions to the PC regarding concealed carry and loaded carry that list out specific situations where you (or "special" people) can do those things legally. But listing exceptions isn't the same as listing everything that's legal.


LOL...lets run with this hi-jack.
When at the shooting range, the law will address what is both legal and illegal for a reasonable person. Other PC will tell you its not cool to shoot the guy next to you, or rob the place cuz you ran out of ammo and need more.

Can you loan the weapon to a 17yr old? What about a 19year old? Stating at what age is legal, also confirms what is illegal. Can you ride with the RAW on your lap in the car? Why not? I have never read where it says you can't ...oh wait PC tells me how it needs to be legally transported. Therefore I know what is illegal. PC tells me its illegal to buy sell or manufacture an AW, and if I do, I am guilty of a felony and can go to jail of 4, 6 or 8 years, BUT it will then list legal ways this can be done.

Regulations and PC attempt to list both legal ways to comply and illegal actions covered by it. Once again, not every situation is covered by one PC or regulation...you need to use reasonable common sense.

The old saying, "PC says whats X not X" is false. There are problems in all PC, where it will not list something on either side (legal or illegal) That's one reason we have lawyers.

Omega13device
11-02-2009, 8:47 PM
You are missing the point. To break a law, there has to be "law" on the books to break.

tonelar
11-02-2009, 10:59 PM
Before I submitted my AW Reg card, I had a couple of multi caliber weapons. I phoned CA DOJ to ask how to list multiple calibers and was told to just list the original caliber of the weapon.

So, my 9mm Uzi Carbine RAW sees regular use of it's .22LR and .45ACP conversions.

bigcalidave
11-03-2009, 12:00 AM
LOL...lets run with this hi-jack.
When at the shooting range, the law will address what is both legal and illegal for a reasonable person. Other PC will tell you its not cool to shoot the guy next to you, or rob the place cuz you ran out of ammo and need more.

Can you loan the weapon to a 17yr old? What about a 19year old? Stating at what age is legal, also confirms what is illegal. Can you ride with the RAW on your lap in the car? Why not? I have never read where it says you can't ...oh wait PC tells me how it needs to be legally transported. Therefore I know what is illegal. PC tells me its illegal to buy sell or manufacture an AW, and if I do, I am guilty of a felony and can go to jail of 4, 6 or 8 years, BUT it will then list legal ways this can be done.

Regulations and PC attempt to list both legal ways to comply and illegal actions covered by it. Once again, not every situation is covered by one PC or regulation...you need to use reasonable common sense.

The old saying, "PC says whats X not X" is false. There are problems in all PC, where it will not list something on either side (legal or illegal) That's one reason we have lawyers.

You already found the exception, but you keep this up? People keep trying to tell you if there is NOT a law prohibiting what you do, you can do it! What are they going to charge you with? Breaking an imaginary law? Yes, it may cause you to spend some time in court, but a judge can't punish you for not breaking the law. By the way, you can also be arrested for crimes and have to defend yourself when they aren't gun related! Happens a lot. They try to make it kinda fair but we all know how that works out.