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Santa Cruz Armory
10-30-2009, 6:50 PM
Ok, so a friend of mine owns an archery shop... he has one of the new PSE Tac-15, AR bow uppers but doesn't own an AR. What is the legality of me loaning him a lower to display his Tac-15 bow until he gets around to buying one?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/PSE-TAC-15-Crossbow.jpg

HondaMasterTech
10-30-2009, 7:07 PM
My friend, that is one of the most bad-*** things I have ever seen.

ETD1010
10-30-2009, 7:15 PM
My friend, that is one of the most bad-*** things I have ever seen.

+1 :eek: I want! I want!

As to the law, I know you can loan a friend a "firearm" if they are not a prohibited person, but as he will be displaying it in a business, I'm not so sure what the legality would be.

glockman19
10-30-2009, 7:34 PM
I'd like one....How much?

Santa Cruz Armory
10-30-2009, 7:51 PM
I'd like one....How much?

About $1200 :D

pyro22
10-30-2009, 7:52 PM
$1,299.99 ouch.:eek:

Sinestr
10-30-2009, 8:08 PM
That's evil wicked, definitely a vampire slayer :31:

Santa Cruz Armory
10-30-2009, 8:10 PM
That's evil wicked, definitely a vampire slayer :31:

Or zombies... for all you zombie fanatics. :eek:

Quiet
10-30-2009, 8:30 PM
The AR lower reciever is a firearm.
All firearm rules apply.

He can borrow it up to 30 days.
If he wants it for more than 30 days, then (technically) it has to be DROS'd to him and DROS'd back to you when he returns it.


Penal Code 12078
(d)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent loan of firearms between persons who are personally known to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30 days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing January 1, 2003, the individual being loaned the handgun has a valid handgun safety certificate.

Cokebottle
10-30-2009, 8:31 PM
As to the law, I know you can loan a friend a "firearm" if they are not a prohibited person, but as he will be displaying it in a business, I'm not so sure what the legality would be.
Agreed... I think the "display in a business" issue makes it a touchy situation, since I assume the friend is not an FFL, and you can't legally "loan" your gun to even a gunsmith who is not an FFL unless you are physically present 24/7.

I wouldn't do it personally, but I'm pretty possessive over things I own that are registered in my name. I would hate to have it stolen and then assembled to an AR upper and used in a crime.... especially if it is not going to be displayed in a locked case and secured in a vault after hours.

In this particular case, I would recommend that he pick up a stripped lower (that way it's in his name and his responsibility), and then maybe let him borrow your buttstock and trigger guard, maybe carve a dummy trigger from spruce and hang it in there. He's going to need a lower for it sooner or later anyways. This way there are no issues with legality on your part, and if the lower is stolen, it's his and only his problem.

Spyder
10-30-2009, 8:53 PM
I wouldn't do it personally, but I'm pretty possessive over things I own that are registered in my name.

Good thing its not registered at all, to anyone!

djm315
10-30-2009, 9:01 PM
I would recommend that he pick up a stripped lower (that way it's in his name and his responsibility),

Lowers are not registered ! No names attached

djm315
10-30-2009, 9:02 PM
spyder beat me to it

Cokebottle
10-30-2009, 9:36 PM
Good thing its not registered at all, to anyone!
Lowers are not registered ! No names attached
I thought even the bare AR receivers went through FFL/DROS?

ETD1010
10-30-2009, 9:45 PM
I thought even the bare AR receivers went through FFL/DROS?

yes, but there is NO registration on long guns. Handguns, yes. After 14 or so days, long gun DROSes go blank in the DOJ system.

Quiet
10-30-2009, 9:47 PM
I thought even the bare AR receivers went through FFL/DROS?

They are.

However, when a long gun or other is DROS'd, the make/model/caliber/serial # of the firearm does not get recorded or sent in.
It gets recorded on the 4473, but that information stays with the FFL dealer and does not get sent to CA DOJ.

All CA DOJ gets is, you bought a long gun.

bodger
10-30-2009, 9:57 PM
Why did I have to see this. A $1299 toy. Gotta have it.


lzc22e0xRX4

Cokebottle
10-30-2009, 9:59 PM
yes, but there is NO registration on long guns. Handguns, yes. After 14 or so days, long gun DROSes go blank in the DOJ system.
They are.

However, when a long gun or other is DROS'd, the make/model/caliber/serial # of the firearm does not get recorded or sent in.
It gets recorded on the 4473, but that information stays with the FFL dealer and does not get sent to CA DOJ.

All CA DOJ gets is, you bought a long gun.
Gotcha'.
So the DOJ would have to have some kind of direction as to which FFL the receiver was purchased through to even begin the process of combing the records.

As to the DROS going blank in the DOJ system after 14 days... call me a skeptic. I wouldn't trust my freedom to anything questionable when there's a remote possibility of a paper trail ;)

MindBuilder
10-30-2009, 10:13 PM
It may not be registered with the state, but it is still by law registered with the dealer. The manufacturers and distributors keep a trail of where the guns go.

The state is supposed to delete the DROS info but I think it was the New Hampshire DOJ that was caught retaining backups indefinitely. I don't think they got in trouble. Who knows if California does.

What's more, law enforcement can look at dealer records any time they want, and I don't know of anything stopping them from copying all the records with their digital cameras for "investigative purposes".

A long gun might not be registered if you got it out of state in a private transfer or many many years ago before the record keeping requirements started.

StudioDison
10-30-2009, 10:15 PM
+1 :eek: I want! I want!

As to the law, I know you can loan a friend a "firearm" if they are not a prohibited person, but as he will be displaying it in a business, I'm not so sure what the legality would be.

with that as it is, its not a firearm
although it shoots bolts of fire.

CHS
10-30-2009, 10:44 PM
What's more, law enforcement can look at dealer records any time they want, and I don't know of anything stopping them from copying all the records with their digital cameras for "investigative purposes".


The ATF can't even look at a dealers records any time they want.

They are allowed one audit per year. After that, they have to get a search warrant.

Law enforcement must get a search warrant as well. Period.


To the OP:

Yes, feel free to loan your friend the lower for up to 30 days. Better yet, make it 29, get it back for a day, and then loan it for another 29.

Or, he owns an archery store. He's got money :) Just have him buy a sub-400$ lower for himself and he can display it permanently.

Digital_Boy
10-31-2009, 2:16 AM
Alternately, he can purchase an 80% lower, no DROS required, mount a pistolgrip and stock on it for a demo unit, or if there are any Airsoft AR clones that use front and rear takedown pins, that would work as well.

After all, if he's just using it for a display piece, there's no need for it to be a firing bow.

GrizzlyGuy
10-31-2009, 6:37 AM
Agreed... I think the "display in a business" issue makes it a touchy situation, since I assume the friend is not an FFL, and you can't legally "loan" your gun to even a gunsmith who is not an FFL unless you are physically present 24/7.

I believe that you actually don't need to be present when you loan a gun in most cases. Two cases where you need to be present are:

1) You loan a large-capacity magazine. Ref: 12020(b)(22)(B):

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12078.html

"The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned."

2) You loan a handgun to someone who doesn't have a HSC. Ref: 12078(d).

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12078.html

For firearms in general and handguns when loaned-to person has HSC:

"Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent loan of firearms between persons who are personally known
to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30
days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing
January 1, 2003, the individual being loaned the handgun has a valid
handgun safety certificate."

For the handgun case where loaned-to person doesn't have HSC (12801b = HSC requirement):

"Subdivision (d) of Section 12072, and subdivision (b) of
Section 12801 shall not apply to the loan of a firearm where all of
the following conditions exist...The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm."

SJgunguy24
10-31-2009, 7:21 AM
OK it has a cool factor of 9.6, so it'll be banned any minute here in California. Or at least Two Weeks.
OK so lets say your hunting with this, but you aren't allowed to be in possesion of firearms while bow hunting.

That AR lower is a firearm by definition, so hows that work?

Santa Cruz Armory
10-31-2009, 8:40 AM
How can it be a firearm if it doesn't shoot a cartridge? Just like a lower isn't a rifle/pistol until it's built... bare, it's just a receiver.

joemama
10-31-2009, 8:52 AM
just get one of these.

http://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=89&ProductID=327

not sure if that still counts as a reciever so it would probably be better and cheaper to just go with the 80% like others have said.

Cokebottle
10-31-2009, 11:51 AM
OK it has a cool factor of 9.6, so it'll be banned any minute here in California. Or at least Two Weeks.
OK so lets say your hunting with this, but you aren't allowed to be in possesion of firearms while bow hunting.

That AR lower is a firearm by definition, so hows that work?
Bullet button with a zero-round mag or a welded magwell?

Still a firearm, but at the very most, it's UOC.

GuyW
10-31-2009, 12:22 PM
How can it be a firearm if it doesn't shoot a cartridge? Just like a lower isn't a rifle/pistol until it's built... bare, it's just a receiver.

Receiver = firearm.
.

bodger
10-31-2009, 1:56 PM
Receiver = firearm.
.

Bullet button with a zero-round mag or a welded magwell?

Still a firearm, but at the very most, it's UOC.


So this crossbow is essentially illegal in CA?

I didn't know there was a law making it illegal to be in posession of a firearm whilst bow-hunting.

What the hell is that all about? I don't bow hunt in CA, but when I do in other states, I always have a sidearm.

Quiet
10-31-2009, 2:15 PM
So this crossbow is essentially illegal in CA?

I didn't know there was a law making it illegal to be in posession of a firearm whilst bow-hunting.

What the hell is that all about? I don't bow hunt in CA, but when I do in other states, I always have a sidearm.

The crossbow is not illegal.

State laws vary on if you can carry a firearm while bow hunting.

Cokebottle
10-31-2009, 2:16 PM
So this crossbow is essentially illegal in CA?
I don't think so, so long as the lower is possessed legally.

It is not illegal to be in possession of an OLL without a mag lock until it is assembled to an upper in a non-featureless build.

However, in this case, the upper itself is incapable of firing a projectile of the caliber the lower is designed for. You could drop a 30rd mag of 5.56 into that receiver and it's still only going to fire arrows. To cover your arse, I still believe a BB and blocked 10rd mag would be a good idea.


I honestly don't know if a firearm lower assembled to an upper incapable of firing a bullet would still be considered a "firearm" for the purpose of determining carry within restricted areas.
This would definitely be one to run by someone familiar with the law.

Quiet
10-31-2009, 2:19 PM
I don't think so, so long as the lower is possessed legally.

It is not illegal to be in possession of an OLL without a mag lock until it is assembled to an upper in a non-featureless build.

However, in this case, the upper itself is incapable of firing a projectile of the caliber the lower is designed for. You could drop a 30rd mag of 5.56 into that receiver and it's still only going to fire arrows. To cover your arse, I still believe a BB and blocked 10rd mag would be a good idea.


I honestly don't know if a firearm lower assembled to an upper incapable of firing a bullet would still be considered a "firearm" for the purpose of determining carry within restricted areas.
This would definitely be one to run by someone familiar with the law.

It is a firearm.
Because, AR lower reciever = firearm.
All firearm rules apply.

An AR lower with the crossbow upper can have all the evil features you want (except a grenade launcher), because it is not a semi-automatic centerfire rifle.

joemama
10-31-2009, 2:36 PM
couldnt you just use an 80% and drill out the trigger pin holes and thread for the buffer tube but not do anything to the magwell? I wouldnt think it would be considered a firearm and would then just be a bow because the 80% wouldnt be finished 100%.

Barabas
10-31-2009, 2:47 PM
Go get an airsoft AR. Don't they come apart like the real deal? No worries about displaying a receiver and if someone steals it, no worries about it killing anyone.

bodger
10-31-2009, 3:00 PM
I don't think so, so long as the lower is possessed legally.

It is not illegal to be in possession of an OLL without a mag lock until it is assembled to an upper in a non-featureless build.

However, in this case, the upper itself is incapable of firing a projectile of the caliber the lower is designed for. You could drop a 30rd mag of 5.56 into that receiver and it's still only going to fire arrows. To cover your arse, I still believe a BB and blocked 10rd mag would be a good idea.


I honestly don't know if a firearm lower assembled to an upper incapable of firing a bullet would still be considered a "firearm" for the purpose of determining carry within restricted areas.
This would definitely be one to run by someone familiar with the law.


I'd say roger that.

If some overzealous asshat decided you were carrying a "firearm" whilst bow-hunting, you might be saying hello to a fat bunch of legal fees. And goodbye to a nice lower and a $1300 crossbow.

This state's gun laws are a PITA.

Super Spy
10-31-2009, 3:15 PM
Lowers are pretty cheap these days.....