PDA

View Full Version : Reminder: No Guns while Masked for Halloween


GrizzlyGuy
10-30-2009, 6:20 PM
Everyone probably already knows this, but just in case (from PC 12040):

"A person commits criminal possession of a firearm when
he or she carries a firearm in a public place or on any public street
while masked so as to hide his or her identity."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12040.html

Brianguy
10-30-2009, 6:28 PM
There goes my updated Jason Vorhees costume :(

G17GUY
10-30-2009, 6:49 PM
no halloween OC partys for pullshoot

cdtx2001
10-30-2009, 6:50 PM
So does this mean I can't dress up as a bank robber with a tommy gun?

cbn620
10-30-2009, 6:51 PM
Wow, I'll be 100% honest and say I did not know about that law. I mean obviously common sense is, I don't think I'm gonna dress up in costume and carry a gun around, but still. I've read a good deal of the 12xxx codes but I guess that one gave me the slip somewhere.

Thanks for the info--not that I planned on carrying a gun this Halloween, since I do not have a CCW.

bigstick61
10-30-2009, 6:58 PM
I'ved carried a gun since it was an essential part of the costume; no one really cared; but I was not wearng a mask, which is what the issue here is.

HondaMasterTech
10-30-2009, 7:05 PM
Caveman had no laws. Only the laws of nature. We survived.

cbn620
10-30-2009, 7:29 PM
Guys, in all fairness, I do not believe this applies to toy guns as part of a costume. It clearly says "firearm."

I believe the main thing to take into consideration here is for CCWers or UOCers. Otherwise legal carry of a firearm can and will be considered criminal possession in the event that you are masked. That's pretty much the gist of it.

tombinghamthegreat
10-30-2009, 7:34 PM
So pretty much if one were to UOC just don't wear a mask. But wow i was not aware of that one.

freakshow10mm
10-30-2009, 7:37 PM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

Grumpyoldretiredcop
10-30-2009, 7:44 PM
It does mean real firearms. Think "bandit", "bank robber", or "vigilante", for that matter, given when the law was enacted.

Usually there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak, if a suspect has a firearm and a mask. I can't remember ever seeing this charged. Not that someone with a hardon for CCWs couldn't make it an issue. Better just not to mix firearms and masks...

cornflake
10-30-2009, 9:48 PM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

It's call Plausible Deniability. Or law maker covering their own *****. Or bury your head in the sand. Whatever you like to call it.

There are tons of law that are not enforced.

Uriah02
10-30-2009, 9:50 PM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

Do you have an idea how many laws would be abolished if they only established enforceable laws.

Nevermore
10-30-2009, 9:55 PM
Do you have an idea how many laws would be abolished if they only established enforceable laws.

Yes, an acceptable number!

pullnshoot25
10-30-2009, 11:27 PM
no halloween OC partys for pullshoot

I didn't get invited to any parties... :(

7x57
10-31-2009, 6:58 AM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

Because selective enforcement is an extremely powerful tool of oppression. It creates administrative privileges.

From what another poster said, that doesn't seem to be the case here, but it happens often enough with other laws.

The other side is that it creates space for a technical infraction to be overlooked because it would be unjust or unreasonable to press the issue. This also happens, all the time. The basic effect is that the ability to selectively enforce increases the power of those who enforce. How that power is used depends on the character of the enforcer.

7x57

7x57
10-31-2009, 7:02 AM
It does mean real firearms. Think "bandit", "bank robber", or "vigilante", for that matter, given when the law was enacted.


Indeed. It does not seem to be a burning issue for the law-abiding in practice.

But...theoretical question for those who like such things. If we have a Right to Bear incorporated against the states, and build the case law that gives it force, will someone someday be able to claim successfully that this infringes their Right to Bear while costumed, or while dressed for extreme winter conditions?

There are other situations where this could come up besides parties. Think of someone hired to wear a company's mascot suit for advertising in a questionable area. Do they give up their civil rights when they accept the job? Or someone disfigured in an accident who chooses to partly or mostly cover their face. Do they no longer have a right to bear arms for their own protection?

Aren't edge cases fun?

7x57

G17GUY
10-31-2009, 2:43 PM
I didn't get invited to any parties... :(

Maybe thanksgiving:chris:

Pilgrim with a gun?

bodger
10-31-2009, 3:08 PM
Remember this story?

http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/sources/LAPD%20Officer's%20Gunfire%20Kills%20Actor%20at%20 Party.htm



Sunday, October 29, 2000
LAPD Officer's Gunfire Kills Actor at Party
Shooting: Halloween reveler at mansion pointed what turned out to be a fake pistol at patrolman, who feared for his life, police say.


By RICHARD WINTON, SUE FOX, Times Staff Writers


A Los Angeles police officer responding to a loud Halloween costume party at a Benedict Canyon mansion early Saturday morning shot and killed an actor, who authorities said pointed what turned out to be a fake handgun at him.
Anthony Dwain Lee, 39, of Van Nuys, who appeared in the movie "Liar, Liar" and on such television shows as "ER" and "NYPD Blue," was shot at multiple times by Officer Tarriel Hopper, who fired from outside through a window, authorities said.
Scores of costumed party-goers, many of them actors and other entertainment industry professionals, were inside the mansion--known to some as "the Castle" for its extravagant design, spires and stained-glass windows--when the shooting occurred about 1 a.m.
"He was a Buddhist. He hated violence. It is amazing he died this way," said Mitch Hale, a writer friend whose play "Buffalo Soldier" starred Lee and earned him a local acting award. "He was an incredibly gifted actor and person. It's devastating. . . . Why did they shoot someone at a Halloween party?"
Police said Hopper and Officer Natalie Humphreys were attempting to locate the owner of the home in the 9700 block of Yoakum Drive after neighbors complained about the noise. The officers were walking along an exterior walkway at the rear of the house when Hopper looked into a small room that appeared to contain three people, police said.
"When one of the individuals observed the officers, he suddenly produced what appeared to be a handgun and pointed it directly at Officer Hopper," Officer Charlotte Broughton said. "Officer Hopper, in fear for his life, fired several rounds from his service pistol, wounding the suspect."
It was not clear whether the victim knew that Hopper was a real police officer. One guest said some party-goers were dressed as police officers.
Upon examination, Broughton said, the alleged weapon was determined to be "a replica semiautomatic pistol, dark in color."
Lee, who was identified by the county coroner's office, died at the scene.
"This is a tragedy," said Broughton. "It's a very unfortunate incident.'
The shooting is being investigated by the LAPD's Robbery-Homicide Division and a team from the district attorney's office. Hopper, 27, has been with the department three years, while Humphreys, 25, joined the force two years ago, police said.
Erik Quisling, 29, a party-goer, said a friend of his, who is a nurse, tried to revive Lee. "He was wedged up against the bed on his side," Quisling added.
Quisling said he was standing in the doorway of the bedroom where Lee was shot. He said he did not witness the moments before the shooting or the shooting itself. He also said he did not hear police officers give a warning, although there was music blaring at the time.
"I heard this 'pop pop,' saw the holes in the glass, smelled the smoke, and then there was this guy on the floor totally dead," he said. "The cop shot from outside through a window to inside the house and kills this guy four feet from me. One minute he was talking; the next minute he was dead."
Quisling said the small room looked out onto a dimly lit grotto with a small pool. The officers, he said, were standing in a paved area by the pool.
At the time of the shooting, Quisling said, many people had left by shuttle because the party was moving to an artist's studio. The mansion is on a narrow canyon road, home to an eclectic array of houses.
Another party-goer, Robert Hull, 28, who works in movie production, said he did not see the shooting because he was in an adjacent hallway. "It was a shock that an officer would shoot at such a party," he said.
"This was an exclusive party with security," he said. "Some of these people are making six figures, and this officer saw a toy gun at a Halloween costume party and opened fire."

Victim Turned Life Around, Friend Says
Hale, 44, who had known the victim for 15 years, said Lee usually wore a devil mask costume with a hood and carried a replica gun to Halloween parties. Hale was not at the party.
Authorities did not say whether the victim was in costume at the time of the shooting.
Lee's costume and gun, Hale said, were "a symbol of the past he had left behind him." As a youth in Northern California, Lee had followed the gangster life before becoming a stage actor, first in Ashland, Ore., then Seattle and eventually Los Angeles, Hale said.
"He was dressed as a devil, not a gangster," he said. "How could this happen?"
Hale said his friend was committed to peace and had even persuaded him to become a Buddhist.
Kirsten Blackburn, Hale's wife, said the Lee she knew would never point a gun at anyone. She said his friends are planning a candlelight vigil in front of the LAPD's West Los Angeles station.
"We are going to try for Monday night. We're going to invite everyone who knew and loved Anthony," she said. "We're devastated, and we're not alone by any means."
Lee's former girlfriend, Annie Esty, 40, who lived across the hall from him, described the actor as a compassionate, reflective person whose apartment was filled with books on acting and directing.
As she talked, she leafed through old pictures and newspaper clippings of him and was comforted by another friend, Mary Lin.
"His biggest fear was getting killed by cops, because he's a tall black man. He said that before," recalled Lin, of Burbank.
The light was still on at Lee's apartment late Saturday. Lin said that when she walked into the apartment complex and "saw the light coming out, I just felt his presence. It was everywhere, a positive feeling, like him saying, 'I'm still here.' "

megavolt121
10-31-2009, 3:16 PM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

One more charge a DA could throw against a Bad Guy.

ZRX61
10-31-2009, 3:18 PM
The Lone Ranger is a FELON????????????

JDoe
10-31-2009, 3:20 PM
Remember this story?

Sure do.

Autopsy: Actor killed by L.A. police shot in back (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/12/05/crime.actor.reut/index.html)

LOS ANGELES, (Reuters) -- An actor killed by a Los Angeles police officer at a noisy Halloween party was shot three times in the back and once in the back of the head, according to an autopsy report obtained by the Los Angeles Times and published Tuesday...

Super Spy
10-31-2009, 3:25 PM
Years ago a buddy and I went as cowboys for Halloween. We kept things as authentic as possible. We both had unloaded six shooters holstered in plain view. We had cartridges in the gun belt, but not in the same caliber as the guns that we were carrying. We had bandannas tied loosely around our necks but not over our faces. I guess I have UOC before.....we had several people comment on how realistic our guns looked too. I recall refusing a few requests to see the guns. I think most of the people thought they were prop guns. I'm not worried about the legality of this as it was long enough ago that I'd be well out any statue of limitations. I just wonder if we actually broke any laws that night....I don't think so but then some of you here are much better versed in the subject than me.

pullnshoot25
10-31-2009, 6:58 PM
Maybe thanksgiving:chris:

Pilgrim with a gun?

Perhaps a "turkey shoot"

Speaking of which, anyone down for an Orosco trip around that time?

dantodd
10-31-2009, 9:51 PM
Years ago a buddy and I went as cowboys for Halloween. We kept things as authentic as possible. We both had unloaded six shooters holstered in plain view. We had cartridges in the gun belt, but not in the same caliber as the guns that we were carrying. We had bandannas tied loosely around our necks but not over our faces. I guess I have UOC before.....we had several people comment on how realistic our guns looked too. I recall refusing a few requests to see the guns. I think most of the people thought they were prop guns. I'm not worried about the legality of this as it was long enough ago that I'd be well out any statue of limitations. I just wonder if we actually broke any laws that night....I don't think so but then some of you here are much better versed in the subject than me.

Could well have violated the Gun Free School Zone. Even if you were at a private residence the walk to and from your car on the street may have been in a school zone.

command_liner
11-01-2009, 5:52 PM
Does this mean that SWAT raids with mask are felonious?

Liberty1
11-01-2009, 8:17 PM
Does this mean that SWAT raids with mask are felonious?

(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following:
(1) A peace officer who is in the performance of his or her
duties.
(2) Full-time paid peace officers of other states and the federal
government who are carrying out official duties while in this state.

(3) Any person summoned by any of the officers enumerated in
paragraph (1) or (2) to assist in making arrests or preserving the
peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting that officer.

(4) The possession of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with
blank ammunition by an authorized participant in, or while
rehearsing for, a motion picture, television, video production,
entertainment event, entertainment activity, or lawfully organized
and conducted activity when the participant lawfully uses the firearm
as part of that production, event, or activity.
(5) The possession of a firearm by a licensed hunter while
actually engaged in lawful hunting, or while going directly to or
returning directly from the hunting expedition.

bigcalidave
11-01-2009, 8:22 PM
I didn't get invited to any parties... :(

Maybe cause you always have that damn gun, and your friends were worried that you would scare people at their parties :P



heheheh

pullnshoot25
11-01-2009, 9:05 PM
Maybe cause you always have that damn gun, and your friends were worried that you would scare people at their parties :P



heheheh

Naw, just not the party type I guess. Plus, it takes people a bit to adjust once they meet me.

You know what is sad? The last party I got invited to was a 16yr old girls birthday party. Apparently she thought I was cool and demanded that I go, so I did. (We know each other through church and all that)

So yeah...

wksun88
11-01-2009, 9:27 PM
Naw, just not the party type I guess. Plus, it takes people a bit to adjust once they meet me.

You know what is sad? The last party I got invited to was a 16yr old girls birthday party. Apparently she thought I was cool and demanded that I go, so I did. (We know each other through church and all that)

So yeah...

LOL

KylaGWolf
11-01-2009, 9:36 PM
Naw, just not the party type I guess. Plus, it takes people a bit to adjust once they meet me.

You know what is sad? The last party I got invited to was a 16yr old girls birthday party. Apparently she thought I was cool and demanded that I go, so I did. (We know each other through church and all that)

So yeah...

Um if we had thrown a party we would have invited ya. And it didn't take me long to adjust after meeting you. Then again look at who I live with ( you know if he reads this post I am so in trouble ::rofl::.)

FreshTapCoke
11-01-2009, 9:44 PM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

It's most likely an additional lesser offense, sort of like how brandishing is infrequently prosecuted by itself.

ie. Commit a bank robbery while masked and with a gun, you have the main charge of armed bank robbery, and then the DA throws other related charges like possession of a loaded weapon, possession of loaded weapon while masked, brandishing, kidnapping, etc. Basically throw a bunch of stuff and see what sticks.

GrizzlyGuy
10-28-2011, 5:14 PM
It's that time of the year again, and this other thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=493893) prompted me to bump this old thread of mine regarding carrying guns and wearing masks all at the same time. Have fun at the Halloween parties but leave one or the other at home while you're out in public. :)

G17GUY
10-28-2011, 5:44 PM
what if you wear a maks that looks like you?

Anchors
10-28-2011, 6:47 PM
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following:
(1) A peace officer who is in the performance of his or her
duties.
(2) Full-time paid peace officers of other states and the federal
government who are carrying out official duties while in this state.

(3) Any person summoned by any of the officers enumerated in
paragraph (1) or (2) to assist in making arrests or preserving the
peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting that officer.

(4) The possession of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with
blank ammunition by an authorized participant in, or while
rehearsing for, a motion picture, television, video production,
entertainment event, entertainment activity, or lawfully organized
and conducted activity when the participant lawfully uses the firearm
as part of that production, event, or activity.
(5) The possession of a firearm by a licensed hunter while
actually engaged in lawful hunting, or while going directly to or
returning directly from the hunting expedition.

(4) sounds like a pretty good defense to me for Halloween parties, etc.

Also, number 3 is interesting. How many times have officers actually invoked the aid of a non-sworn person to help them who happened to have a mask and a gun handy? haha.

jb7706
10-28-2011, 8:04 PM
(4) sounds like a pretty good defense to me for Halloween parties, etc.

Also, number 3 is interesting. How many times have officers actually invoked the aid of a non-sworn person to help them who happened to have a mask and a gun handy? haha.

You mean you don't get called in to help the boys in blue? Happens to me at least twice a week. :shuriken:

creekside
10-28-2011, 9:15 PM
This PC section has an interesting intersection with three other issues:

-- pandemic preparedness and the need to wear N95 or other medical / surgical masks
-- post-disaster dust in the air, as from a volcanic eruption
-- the use of respirator masks to safely enter a building with severe mold

After Mt. Saint Helens, some banks had to put up signs saying, "Please take off mask before entering bank. Thank you!"

A counter to the "... so as to hide his or her identity ..." requirement might be to wear one's own name openly, as on a name tag or clothing tag. Seems like a good thing for someone else to test in case law.

Mstrty
10-28-2011, 10:07 PM
"... so as to hide his or her identity ..." is arguable.

No makeup for lots of women then. We all know someone that is only reconizable with makeup on.

Eat Dirt
10-28-2011, 10:13 PM
What ????????????

I won't get to yell
" Get to the ChoppA " in complete attire

ldivinag
10-28-2011, 11:11 PM
can i UOC with this costume?

http://www.google.com/search?q=sean+connery+zardoz+image&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

might be NSFW...


lol...

Doheny
10-28-2011, 11:25 PM
(4) sounds like a pretty good defense to me for Halloween parties, etc.

I'd have to agree.

ALSystems
10-29-2011, 4:21 AM
To avoid violating PC 12040 means:

people should avoid Halloween costumes like "the Phantom" with purple tights, a mask, a magic ring and two hostered handguns.
The tights will certainly make a grown man look silly.:D

dalriaden
10-29-2011, 6:50 AM
Well great, I was totally going for this look:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110324-libyan-rebel-01.photoblog900.jpg

The Shadow
10-29-2011, 9:57 AM
Well great, I was totally going for this look:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110324-libyan-rebel-01.photoblog900.jpg

Not me, I was going for this look.

http://geektyrant.com/storage/post-images-2011/the-lone-ranger_l.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1307552692 151

campperrykid
10-29-2011, 1:39 PM
IIRC , there was a very tragic case some years ago in New Orleans .
It involved ( again IIRC ) a homeowner with a scoped .44 hunting revolver a and foriegn exchange student . The shooting occured on the front porch of the home around Halloween if memory serves. Murder charges did not stick , but the civil damages were brutal.

Phouty
10-29-2011, 2:26 PM
can i UOC with this costume?

http://www.google.com/search?q=sean+connery+zardoz+image&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

might be NSFW...


lol...

Hell no! You still hide your 'other face'!:p

Stonewalker
10-29-2011, 2:47 PM
Doesn't the first amendment imply a right to anonymity? And really... consider the context of a bad guy carrying a gun to rob somebody who is hiding his identity... what does the harm, the robbing or the mask? I'm of the opinion that we don't need laws to pile on suspected criminals (WHO ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY) and that aren't aimed at preventing actions which aren't inherently bad.

i.e. wearing a mask is not inherently bad, robbing somebody is.

Vlad 11
10-29-2011, 3:34 PM
Arrgh! I guess i need to scratch the Hot Nurse with Tommy Gun costume.

http://www.clothlands.com/images/clm4/11280.jpg

Liberty1
10-29-2011, 9:30 PM
...

Why charge a misdemeanor when 211/236 pc will do?

joelogic
10-29-2011, 11:16 PM
I saw three guys dressed as nuns from The Town with orange tipped AR-15s enter a taco bell. Pretty stupid idea. At least take off your mask first.

ALSystems
10-30-2011, 7:12 AM
I thought the prohibition is about someone wearing a mask and carrying a REAL gun,

Kid Stanislaus
10-30-2011, 10:15 AM
But why have a law if it is not enforced?

"BECAUSE":rolleyes: Welcome to the PRC!!;)

Grumpyoldretiredcop
10-30-2011, 10:41 AM
Why charge a misdemeanor when 211/236 pc will do?

It would most likely be the "cherry on top", much like the first felon I saw sentenced to 25-to-life who was also sentenced to serve 30 days on a 14601 (driving on a suspended/revoked DL)... consecutive.

Or, consider the suspect stupid enough to go masked enroute to his/her intended crime scene and is caught.

Kid Stanislaus
10-30-2011, 3:30 PM
I'm wonder'n if face paint constitutes a mask.

huntercf
10-30-2011, 5:56 PM
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following:
(1) A peace officer who is in the performance of his or her
duties.
(2) Full-time paid peace officers of other states and the federal
government who are carrying out official duties while in this state.

(3) Any person summoned by any of the officers enumerated in
paragraph (1) or (2) to assist in making arrests or preserving the
peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting that officer.

(4) The possession of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with
blank ammunition by an authorized participant in, or while
rehearsing for, a motion picture, television, video production,
entertainment event, entertainment activity, or lawfully organized
and conducted activity when the participant lawfully uses the firearm
as part of that production, event, or activity.
(5) The possession of a firearm by a licensed hunter while
actually engaged in lawful hunting, or while going directly to or
returning directly from the hunting expedition.

Couldn't the bold part exclude someone from the provision if they were at a halloween party?

Curtis
10-30-2011, 5:57 PM
I remember being told that masks in general were illegal; going back to the KKK days. But I don't have any PC references.

Munk
10-30-2011, 8:42 PM
I like the part about concealing identity. What if your wore a mask of yourself? What if your mask consisted of your name and ID# or any other identifying information.

What if you wore a mask but also an ID badge with your correct information on it?

The "entertainment activity" thing is a pretty good pass though. Especially on private property... Just don't be surprised if the cops catch sight of you through an open window and open fire. (that story was messed up on so very many levels).

I remember being told that masks in general were illegal; going back to the KKK days. But I don't have any PC references.

AFAIK that's only when driving, carrying a gun, or entering a "sensitive" place like a bank or courthouse.

ALSystems
10-30-2011, 9:55 PM
I'm wonder'n if face paint constitutes a mask.
Interesting.

How about a few black stripes on your face like American Indian war paint. Is that considered a mask?

Doheny
10-30-2011, 10:03 PM
Couldn't the bold part exclude someone from the provision if they were at a halloween party?

Yeah...

It would be tough making the charge stick, if an arrest even occurred.

glockman19
10-31-2011, 7:41 AM
The last couple of years I've dressed as a FBI agent.

Someting like this:
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1289587989368&id=fc3f715ef3e4c1f0c9d3022807aa3892

am I impersonating LE?

Stonewalker
10-31-2011, 8:21 AM
If you attempted to use such a costume to confer a manner of authority, then yes. And of course, some uppity DA might get a hard-on for you even if you weren't doing that.