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View Full Version : buying replacement hicap mag bodies in california


10-05-2005, 4:45 PM
i know this is legal but people in other states act like you are trying to commit a crime. i have had some one agree to sell me a replacement mag body. after he cashed the check he calls the doj to confirm that it is legal to send it. thedoj tells him it is illegal. it is only a part to replace a worn part of a mag that i legally had before the 2000 ban. why does the doj make up stories all of the time? is there any info from the state that states it is legal to import hicap mag PARTS into california?

bu-bye
10-05-2005, 4:55 PM
Word is that you can send the damaged tubes back to the USA Glock office and they will replace them for free with new hi-cap drop free mags. I sit on my mags as if they were gold bars. I would be pissed if I sent them in and glock said "Oh your in Cali, here are a coule 10 rounders as the DOJ said we can't give you hi-caps". I have not called Glock for myself and I'm sure I would feel better if I did but at this time my mags work fine so maybe in a year or two I'll send them in.

MaceWindu
10-05-2005, 5:27 PM
I sit on my mags as if they were gold bars.

Yup.... http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MaceWindu

gidddy169
10-05-2005, 9:17 PM
Brownells sells replacement magazine parts to you in CA. I believe they hired an attorney who talked to the doj and concluded it was legal. I am not sure where an official statement is at the moment but I believe I read it somewhere. If I find it I will let you know.

Turbinator
10-06-2005, 8:09 AM
Originally posted by hflores:
i have had some one agree to sell me a replacement mag body.

What mag is it? For which gun?

Turby

dave3006
10-06-2005, 9:04 AM
Do they sell replacement mag bodies for Glocks?

10-06-2005, 12:06 PM
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/CAL-DOJregs2.shtml



there is all of the info we need.

bwiese
10-06-2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by hflores:
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/CAL-DOJregs2.shtml
there is all of the info we need.

Not true, this crap is out of date.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

10-06-2005, 12:39 PM
so where can i find an up to date statement?

Mike Searson
10-06-2005, 4:09 PM
This would be cool:
Converting firearms to fire rimfire cartridges, instead of centerfire, is a legal alternative to registering a firearm under SB-23. The example discussed was that of a Bushmaster XM15 with the designation of ".223 caliber" on the lower receiver. DOJ Staff admitted that function of the firearm is what determines the necessity of registration, not the labeling or name. Thus, an "AR-15 type" firearm that has been converted to .22 long rifle (with a conversion kit) would "exempt it completely" from SB-23 and the "Assault Weapon" designation.


Someone needs to tell that member council to delete that info from the site as it does nothing but aid in confusing people who are only trying to be honest.

gidddy169
10-06-2005, 5:15 PM
Yes brownells carries glock mag bodies but only scherer I think.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13073&title=MAG+BODY+for+GLOCK%7e&s=44391#44391

saki302
10-07-2005, 2:26 PM
I was told yesterday by an FFL that replacement mag parts are illegal here, and only the original manufacturer can refurb mags.

I believe this to be incorrect- B. Wiese, want to chime in? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm pretty confident there are no prohibitions at all on mag parts, and no constructive possession either, but I thought you might know the actual rule.
I bought so many mags in 1999, I don't have to worry about it for awhile, but eventually, everyone will have to worry about replacing worn out mag parts!

-Dave

10-07-2005, 5:55 PM
Without a written statement from CA DOJ it seems like anyone is potentially open for arrest for importing/assembling a hi-cap mag.

Scenario: you have an old Glock 9mm hi-cap and replace the mag body with one marked "LE only". Later on you replace the spring, follower, floorplate and insert. Effectively you have a brand new magazine. Even if it's legal to replace all the parts how are you going to prove that's what you did?

MaceWindu
10-07-2005, 6:32 PM
Without a written statement from CA DOJ it seems like anyone is potentially open for arrest for importing/assembling a hi-cap mag.

Please name (1) person who gets a "written statement" from the DOJ....thats just non-sense.

Scenario

Scenario?Scenario? There are a million different scenarios we could dream up. What if?

I do not advocate breaking the law, but some of this speculation is just out and out ridiculous.

Here this might help: An AFDB!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

LOL!

MaceWindu

gidddy169
10-07-2005, 8:32 PM
Dave A. your FFL is wrong there is no place in the law that says the original manufacturer has to be the one to refurbish the magazine. I know someone on here has more info and I really can't remember where I have read the info before. I do know that it is not illegal to replace magazine parts but it is illegal to manufacture a new magazine. Personally I wouldn't want any magazine parts that say "law enforcement only" on them just because it could cause people to ask questions but as far as I have read it isn't illegal.

imported_kantstudien
10-07-2005, 8:36 PM
Originally posted by ryang:
Even if it's legal to replace all the parts how are you going to prove that's what you did?

Here's how: Keep all your old used parts in a plastic baggy.

10-07-2005, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by MaceWindu:
Please name (1) person who gets a "written statement" from the DOJ....thats just non-sense. Rather than naming a single person I give you this: http://ag.ca.gov/opinions/instructions/contents.htm

There are a million different scenarios we could dream up. What if? Some of this speculation is just out and out ridiculous. Anything is possible, the question is how probable. I think the scenario I postulated is very much probable. Right now we have a bunch of uninformed opinions regarding what may or may not be legal with no guideline from the DOJ. We're talking about felonies here and I'd prefer to know where they draw the line before I accidentally cross over it. Or did you forget a felony conviction means you give up all your gun ownership rights?

MaceWindu
10-08-2005, 11:13 AM
We're talking about felonies here and I'd prefer to know where they draw the line before I accidentally cross over it. Or did you forget a felony conviction means you give up all your gun ownership rights?

Magic word: "discrete"

DO you go to the range and start yelling,"Hey everyone, I have Standard Capacity mags! Come look!".

Or do you take your ten rounders to practice with?

When I go to tactical training handgun and carbine training, I take my 15-20 rounders, etc. Just plinkin or sightin in, 10 rounders. Are mag parts legal, yes.

I have a couple dozen standard cap mags for every platform, and parts to repair them. Be discrete, keep your mouth shut, and you'll be fine.

Did I forget to mention that most of the guys I shoot with are LEO's? They will be the one's knockin on your door, so they are the best source as to what is legal and what is NOT, they have the CPC books.

If not, buy a AFDB.

MaceWindu

10-08-2005, 2:15 PM
Originally posted by MaceWindu:
Did I forget to mention that most of the guys I shoot with are LEO's? They will be the one's knockin on your door, so they are the best source as to what is legal and what is NOT, they have the CPC books. If you think LEOs are the best source for legal opinions then you are sadly mistaken. Did I forget to mention I've received POST certification as a Level I reserve officer? Or taken several college-level courses on criminal law? LEOs do their best but it's the lawyers and courts who decide what the law means.

Be discrete and hope no one notices? That kind of ostrich head in the sand mentality is idiotic. Better to know--or try to know--what the law really is than hope no one notices.

Your repeated references to AFDBs aside, I'm not talking about jackbooted thugs kicking down doors looking for violations. I'm talking about cops looking for additional crimes to charge you with once you've already done something to get their attention. And before you start mentioning AFDBs again, ask your LEO buddies how many of them have used a "routine traffic stop" as a pretext to look for something bigger.

10-08-2005, 4:10 PM
Cops enforce the law, courts interpret the law http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MaceWindu
10-08-2005, 9:58 PM
If you think LEOs are the best source for legal opinions then you are sadly mistaken. Did I forget to mention I've received POST certification as a Level I reserve officer? Or taken several college-level courses on criminal law? LEOs do their best but it's the lawyers and courts who decide what the law means.

Be discrete and hope no one notices? That kind of ostrich head in the sand mentality is idiotic. Better to know--or try to know--what the law really is than hope no one notices.

Okay newbie, if you have the references, certifications, etc...

WTF are you doin on a PUBLIC FORUM, asking for advice from NON LEO's? So who's the idiot?

Sounds like you need to go back to where ever you received the POST certification and get yer $$$ back because you didn't LEARN JACK...
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MaceWindu

-hanko
10-08-2005, 11:01 PM
Help me understand how this got so complex...

Laws are written to indicate what is NOT legal.

In the PRK, it is...

Legal to import parts to repair existing standard capacity magazines.

Not legal to use the parts to make new standard capacity magazines.

Not legal to import new standard capacity magazines.

Not necessarily true that leo's generally know more about PRK gun laws than non-leos. It depends on the leo.


LE marked magazines are marked due to a federal law that expired. Conceivably, you could have used a marked body to repair an existing magazine.

-hanko

MaceWindu
10-08-2005, 11:20 PM
LE marked magazines are marked due to a federal law that expired. Conceivably, you could have used a marked body to repair an existing magazine.

Bingo.... http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MaceWindu

railroader
10-09-2005, 7:58 AM
I agree that leo marked mag bodies could be used for rebuilds would be legal but that seems is really asking for trouble. The problem with that is LEO mags were never legal in cali so they throw up a red flag.Whoever does it had better definately hang onto the old mag bodies. Mark

10-09-2005, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by MaceWindu:
Okay newbie, if you have the references, certifications, etc...

WTF are you doin on a PUBLIC FORUM, asking for advice from NON LEO's? So who's the idiot? You are. We've already established you're a blowhard who likes to spout off about stuff you don't know about and call people who do stupid. (Refer to earlier post about written statements from DOJ.)

Speaking of which, you seem to have a hang-up about LEOs being the ultimate authority when it comes to interpreting the law. As I mentioned previously, what I'm really looking for is written guidance from the DOJ regarding what is and is not kosher. Short of case law we don't have a definitive ruling and I'd rather not find myself on the short end of that stick.

Oh, and just to complete your trifecta of idiotcy, you seem to think having a greater post count confers a kind of "elder statesman" staus. I look at things based on the worth of what's being said. At least in this thread I think your posts have been pretty worthless--incorrect on the facts, condescending and spiteful. So to prevent a running flame war I'm going to ignore future posts from you and concentrate on the subject at hand.

10-09-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by -hanko:
Help me understand how this got so complex... Laws are written to indicate what is NOT legal. Not quite. Laws are written to state things that are not legal (e.g. murder) and things that are (e.g. justifiable homicide). However case law (case decisions made by judges) can alter or even negate statutory (written) law.

A good example is justifiable homicide. According to CA penal codes you are justified to kill anyone comitting a felony. Cops used to shoot robbers back in the 70's. Case law has since developed where you can't do that any more.

Legal to import parts to repair existing standard capacity magazines.

Not legal to use the parts to make new standard capacity magazines.

Not legal to import new standard capacity magazines. Only the last two statements are referenced in existing statutory law. I have not been able to find a single reference or legal opinion that states it is legal to import parts to repair hi-cap magazines.

Here's an example of a legal opinion: Before the assault weapon ban AR-15s were okay provided they had barrels longer than 16". That's what the codes stated. However an interpretation of the law expanded that to mean if you owned an AR-15 lower and a short-barreled upper, you were guilty of possession of a short-barreled rifle even if the parts were not assembled together.

Here's an example of how case law continues to modify statutory law: concealed carry is defined as having a loaded firearm concealed upon your person. According to statutory law "loaded firearm" means bullets in magazine, magazine in pistol. Case law expanded that to mean it would still be considered a loaded firearm if you had a concealed pistol and a loaded magazine on your person even if the mag wasn't in the pistol. Case law subsequently expanded to "on or about" which means if you had a concealed but empty pistol, and you were with a buddy who had a loaded magazine, you were guilty of carrying concealed.

Laws are complex and that's why we have so many lawyers.

MaceWindu
10-09-2005, 1:19 PM
You are. We've already established you're a blowhard who likes to spout off about stuff you don't know about and call people who do stupid.

Sweet...does the term: "Foxtrot Oscar" ryang..mean anything?

MW

saki302
10-09-2005, 3:21 PM
I was wondering what the heck that meant..
http://www.landscaper.net/artystory.htm#Artillery¬*%20FOFoxtrot%20¬*%20Oscar

Then I found this:
http://www.maison-de-stuff.net/rob/slang.html

Learn something new every day- LOL

-Dave

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-09-2005, 5:56 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MaceWindu:

Please name (1) person who gets a "written statement" from the DOJ....thats just non-sense.

[QUOTE]

I have corrosponded directly via Certified Mail with Allison Merrilees, a Deputy Attorney General in the Firearms Division of the California Department of Justice.

She is a Bar-certified Attorney representing the State.

I'm not special, anyone can send a certified letter to the DOJ Firearms Div (I'd address it to Rossi himself so you don't get some non-lawyer lacky) and in my expierence their replies BY MAIL are both timely and consistant with matters of law.

However, on the phone they routinely threaten, cajole, and illegally intimidate. DO NOT CALL THE DOJ!

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-09-2005, 6:02 PM
Originally posted by MaceWindu:
[QUOTE]Did I forget to mention that most of the guys I shoot with are LEO's? They will be the one's knockin on your door, so they are the best source as to what is legal and what is NOT, they have the CPC books.

Actually LEOS are about the WORST SOURCE IN THE WORLD for legal advice.

For one, they may lie to you in the course of an investigation. They may tell you "oh suuure, it will be fiiiinnne." and then literally lock you up 10 seconds later.

This is a one-sided exchange, making false statements to an officer during an investigation is sometimes a felony and always a crime.

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-09-2005, 6:06 PM
Here's an example of how case law continues to modify statutory law: concealed carry is defined as having a loaded firearm concealed upon your person. According to statutory law "loaded firearm" means bullets in magazine, magazine in pistol. Case law expanded that to mean it would still be considered a loaded firearm if you had a concealed pistol and a loaded magazine on your person even if the mag wasn't in the pistol. Case law subsequently expanded to "on or about" which means if you had a concealed but empty pistol, and you were with a buddy who had a loaded magazine, you were guilty of carrying concealed.


OH BROTHER you are going to have to show me some Cites here!!!

MaceWindu
10-09-2005, 8:23 PM
Actually LEOS are about the WORST SOURCE IN THE WORLD for legal advice.

You may have a good argument. But, lest we forget, the LEO's are the ones who will be reading you your rights, looking in your gear, slapping on the bracelets. So, any insider information as to what they look for, how they will go about conducting the investigation, why they look for certain things, or how your ATTITUDE dictates whether they cut you some slack or not is good knowledge to have.

MaceWindu

imported_kantstudien
10-09-2005, 9:42 PM
Originally posted by ryang:
I have not been able to find a single reference or legal opinion that states it is legal to import parts to repair hi-cap magazines.

Then do everyone a favor and stop asking! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
10-10-2005, 1:55 AM
Hey that's rollicking great, but it is the JUDGE who will be siding with me when I accuse the DA of Prosecutorial Misconduct in open court and dismiss all charges!

What difference does any of this make, and how are you helping, have you sent certified letters to the DOJ?

Originally posted by MaceWindu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually LEOS are about the WORST SOURCE IN THE WORLD for legal advice.

You may have a good argument. But, lest we forget, the LEO's are the ones who will be reading you your rights, looking in your gear, slapping on the bracelets. So, any insider information as to what they look for, how they will go about conducting the investigation, why they look for certain things, or how your ATTITUDE dictates whether they cut you some slack or not is good knowledge to have.

MaceWindu </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

50 Freak
10-10-2005, 2:14 AM
Hey Mace,

I'd have to agree with Art, LEO's are often the worst people to ask about gun laws. Hell, if FFLs and our "esteemed" DOJ can't get the gun laws right, what makes you think the lowly LEO will.

This is left up to the courts and the lawyers to try and figure out our screwed up gun laws.

10-10-2005, 9:01 AM
Originally posted by artherdGROUPEESUCKS:
OH BROTHER you are going to have to show me some Cites here!!! Check out http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html for PC 12021.5 and PC 12025. I can't cite the specific court case but one person with a pistol and another with a loaded magazine was defined as "readily accessible to that person". They did that because gang members tried to get around the law using that tactic.

HEUER
10-30-2005, 12:21 PM
I have read the posts. What is the law here in California? Not speculation, but something the CADOJ has in writing?

artherd
10-30-2005, 5:55 PM
he calls the doj

EDIT: I see this is an old thread, looks like the import went well:


NEVER EVER EVER call a legal adversary. Highcap mag bodies (and infact full replacement parts sets) are fully legal for import and posession in CA.

As long as you do not create any more high-cap mags than you had in 1/1/2000 you are good to go.

artherd
10-30-2005, 6:03 PM
First off: the California Penal Codes are Statute Law, not Case Law.

Second: there are parts of the CPC that apply to loaded mag and handgun on the person. They cover ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY:
1) Statutory Street Gang members.

2) Persons with handguns that are not the registerd owner of said handgun.

So don't try this with your buddy's handgun, or one you've just had around since 1940.

And don't be in a gang. (and YES California has a stautory definition for a 'Street Gang')


Anyone else have any case law cites for me? No?

Check out http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html for PC 12021.5 and PC 12025. I can't cite the specific court case but one person with a pistol and another with a loaded magazine was defined as "readily accessible to that person". They did that because gang members tried to get around the law using that tactic.