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View Full Version : siaga 308 vs socom 308


Bucky G
10-30-2009, 2:05 PM
I know they are miles apart in price
But how similar are the 16 inchers in form, function, reliability, accuracy... Etc

Black Majik
10-30-2009, 2:12 PM
Completely different in pretty much all aspects. Both can/are reliable, but it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

The Saiga is a fantastic weapon. However, between the two, I think everything goes in favor of the M1A except reliability.

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 2:15 PM
Completely different in pretty much all aspects. Both can/are reliable, but it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

The Saiga is a fantastic weapon. However, between the two, I think everything goes in favor of the M1A except reliability.
This^^^^^

Completely different operating systems. For my money i'll go with an AK first and then get the fancy gun second.

Requiem
10-30-2009, 2:58 PM
Cheaper-saiga
accurate-socom

I'm selling a socom if you're interested ;)

Sicarius
10-30-2009, 3:03 PM
Bang for the buck, the saiga is a better deal but as far as quality, accuracy, robustness, the socom is a better firearm... You pay for it though.
Kevin

50 Freak
10-30-2009, 3:06 PM
How about a 16 inch FAL????

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/FAL007.jpg

Barney Gumble
10-30-2009, 3:07 PM
I think everything goes in favor of the M1A except reliability.

Huh? What are you basing that on? It's a battle-proven design...cost and weight are common (and fair) criticisms relative to modern designs but I don't recall hearing many complaints about M1As going bang when needed.

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 3:11 PM
Huh? What are you basing that on? It's a battle-proven design...cost and weight are common (and fair) criticisms relative to modern designs but I don't recall hearing many complaints about M1As going bang when needed.

Can't speak for blak magic but he maybe talking about the inheriant reliability of the AK platform.

Peter W Bush
10-30-2009, 3:19 PM
Reliability issues with the M1A?? It's without a doubt one of the best battle rifles ever designed.

Black Majik
10-30-2009, 3:24 PM
Reliability issues with the M1A?? It's without a doubt one of the best battle rifles ever designed.

Huh? What are you basing that on? It's a battle-proven design...cost and weight are common (and fair) criticisms relative to modern designs but I don't recall hearing many complaints about M1As going bang when needed.

M1A guys. Not M14. Just to clarify the one that Springfield Armory makes. With the cast receiver, and the commercial parts.

They're reliable, yes. I have a M1A I love too. But to compare a commercial M1A to a russian Saiga in terms of reliability is a bit unfair dont'cha think?

A M1A is not a battle rifle. A M14 is.

stix213
10-30-2009, 3:29 PM
There are reliable guns, and then there are AK's. M1A is known for reliability, but the Saiga .308 will go thousands of rounds and can sit on the shelf uncleaned for years with no real risk of a problem.

Don't get your panties up in a wad M1A guys, you still get to brag about your tighter groups.

Barney Gumble
10-30-2009, 5:00 PM
The AK design has a reputation for being able to run in any and all conditions, there's no question about that.

Regarding the SAI parts issue, that comes up a lot, but here's my question: What are the failure rates, and are they any worse than any other semi-auto rifle? The answer is that no one knows. It's something worth pondering before you buy your rifle, but by the same token, what do you know about the origin and manufacturing process of Saiga parts? How do we know they're made any better than SAI parts?

I'm not an M1A fanboy by any stretch but I do get tired of the lack of skepticism about a lot of these theories.

toopercentmlk
10-30-2009, 5:03 PM
I can't bring myself to putting ammo through anything but an exceptionally accurate firearm. I'd save for the M1a. And I practice what I preach.

swerv512
10-30-2009, 9:21 PM
i just spent an hour drooling over a M1A, actually is was a scout. if i were to get another (and i will be soon) it'll be the scout. much nicer IMHO...

supermario
10-30-2009, 10:15 PM
$1400 is the difference. I love my Saiga but the M1A is soo nice. I will have one next year..

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 10:19 PM
The AK design has a reputation for being able to run in any and all conditions, there's no question about that.

Regarding the SAI parts issue, that comes up a lot, but here's my question: What are the failure rates, and are they any worse than any other semi-auto rifle? The answer is that no one knows. It's something worth pondering before you buy your rifle, but by the same token, what do you know about the origin and manufacturing process of Saiga parts? How do we know they're made any better than SAI parts?

I'm not an M1A fanboy by any stretch but I do get tired of the lack of skepticism about a lot of these theories.

I'll trust a Russian small arms factory thats been churning out quality arms for 200+ years. A factory that Mr. Kalashnikov still keeps an office and a home.

Compared to the Brazilian factory where the M1A's receiver is made. With some of the issues that members post with here on calguns with and how much they cost. I'll buy one when I have money to burn.

tombinghamthegreat
10-30-2009, 10:20 PM
One would have to ask themselves what do they need it for? If you want a simple, cheap semi auto rifle to use for home defense, shooting ect the saiga wins. Of course there is the option of buying both...

Crazed_SS
10-30-2009, 10:30 PM
All the M1A hate here is amazing. lol @ all these internet commandos talking about "battle rifles"

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 10:48 PM
All the M1A hate here is amazing. lol @ all these internet commandos talking about "battle rifles"

No hate here, but i'd rather get a LRB receiver as my base for a M14-M1A rifle.
Forged is what the military uses, I think thats what i'll use as well.

A buddy from work has a M25 built on a LRB receiver and i'll say right now that is one of the finest semi auto rifles in civilian hands. LRB made all of the new m14 receivers for the military 10,000 of them. My buddy's rifle is receiver # 10,0030. His is the real deal, made by LRB. Thats what I want.

Bucky G
10-30-2009, 11:05 PM
sorry, didn't mean to start a battle, I was just wondering
it's not like I can afford to toss that kind of money away on a socom anyway
that's a year's worth of hay right there :D

Loner
10-30-2009, 11:09 PM
Get an AR10.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7984/ar10.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/ar10.jpg/)

Barney Gumble
10-30-2009, 11:15 PM
LOL...so cast receivers is your argument for why M1As are "unreliable"? Show me all the reports of broken SAI receivers and I'll buy your argument that cast receivers create reliability problems.

You're just throwing stuff out there and hoping something will stick. If there are reliability problems with M1As, what are they?

sorry, didn't mean to start a battle, I was just wondering
it's not like I can afford to toss that kind of money away on a socom anyway
that's a year's worth of hay right there :D

Come on Bucky we're just starting to have fun! :D

SJgunguy24
10-30-2009, 11:21 PM
LOL...so cast receivers is your argument for why M1As are "unreliable"? Show me all the reports of broken SAI receivers and I'll buy your argument that cast receivers create reliability problems.

You're just throwing stuff out there and hoping something will stick. If there are reliability problems with M1As, what are they?



Come on Bucky we're just starting to have fun! :D

Hey Barney, dude you shoot my buds M25, you'll throw you M1A into SF bay.

Barney Gumble
10-30-2009, 11:34 PM
Hey Barney, dude you shoot my buds M25, you'll throw you M1A into SF bay.

My M1A goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Other than the superior scope mounting solution on the M25, I don't see how the experience would be any different.

mblat
10-30-2009, 11:45 PM
SOCOM is a lot of good things, but accuracy is hardly one of them. I have one. It isn't 1 MOA gun. Not even close to it. At least mine isn't. I never shot Saiga, but I also have VEPR. SOCOM is more accurate than VEPR..... but not by much.

50 Freak
10-30-2009, 11:53 PM
I have a Super Vepr and I'll bet you it's a lot more accurate than your SOCOM

socomIInato
10-31-2009, 12:44 AM
M1A guys. Not M14. Just to clarify the one that Springfield Armory makes. With the cast receiver, and the commercial parts.

They're reliable, yes. I have a M1A I love too. But to compare a commercial M1A to a russian Saiga in terms of reliability is a bit unfair dont'cha think?

A M1A is not a battle rifle. A M14 is.

hold on there grasshopper, remember this, MR. AK was designed around a less powerful round, while the M14,M1A are designed around the 308 to begin with. I would hardly call the saiga in 308 a military battle rifle. It was designed for the civilian market.

Crazed_SS
10-31-2009, 1:14 AM
No hate here, but i'd rather get a LRB receiver as my base for a M14-M1A rifle.
Forged is what the military uses, I think thats what i'll use as well.

A buddy from work has a M25 built on a LRB receiver and i'll say right now that is one of the finest semi auto rifles in civilian hands. LRB made all of the new m14 receivers for the military 10,000 of them. My buddy's rifle is receiver # 10,0030. His is the real deal, made by LRB. Thats what I want.

I have a Springfield M1A and it works great. I swear to God, I'd go broke before I ever fired enough rounds out of this thing to where the receiver failed. *If* I did magically wear out a M1A, Id just send it back to SA and have it fixed in a couple weeks. With that said, I have 100% confidence is this rifle. If "SHTF" happened tommorow, I have no doubt this thing will sling lead downrange as designed.

I understand LRB and Fulton make higher quality rifles, but a Springfield M1A isnt exactly a POS. It's a pretty stout gun in itself. This thread is about Saiga vs M1A. I have both and I can tell you that the worksmanship and build quality on the Springfield M1A is 5 times that of the Saiga.

I dunno, I think Springfield M1As get bagged on for no real reason on this board. Yes, we all know they arent exact copies of the military M14, but they're close enough approximations for what 99% of the people on these gun boards will use them for..

Black Majik
10-31-2009, 1:38 AM
hold on there grasshopper, remember this, MR. AK was designed around a less powerful round, while the M14,M1A are designed around the 308 to begin with. I would hardly call the saiga in 308 a military battle rifle. It was designed for the civilian market.

Huh? I never stated the Saiga .308 was a battle rifle. I never even stated the Saiga was a battle rifle? My post was referring to the M14 and M1A.

What you just posted was completely irrelevent to what my post stated.


To Barney Grumble. There is one issue with the M1A. It is known to have a weak extractor, a common upgrade for M1A owners would be to swap it out for a USGI extractor. My M1A runs fine, however I've been following M-14thefiringline for years, thats the issue that usually crops up. However, it's just what I read on the internet, so fwiw.

I really have no dog in this debate. I own both and have loyalty to neither platforms. I like my Saigas for what it is. I like my M1A for what it is.

socomIInato
10-31-2009, 2:16 PM
Huh? I never stated the Saiga .308 was a battle rifle. I never even stated the Saiga was a battle rifle? My post was referring to the M14 and M1A.

What you just posted was completely irrelevent to what my post stated.


To Barney Grumble. There is one issue with the M1A. It is known to have a weak extractor, a common upgrade for M1A owners would be to swap it out for a USGI extractor. My M1A runs fine, however I've been following M-14thefiringline for years, thats the issue that usually crops up. However, it's just what I read on the internet, so fwiw.

I really have no dog in this debate. I own both and have loyalty to neither platforms. I like my Saigas for what it is. I like my M1A for what it is.

not quite black majik, you state that the M1a is a commercial rifle and this is true, but can`t compare to the russian saiga. the russian saiga is also a commercial rifle! tell me the difference between the two. there both commercial rifles. ah but one actually uses it`s original cal. it was designed for. the other rifle was adapted to a more powerful cartridge. which one do you think is inherently more reliable?

Requiem
10-31-2009, 2:24 PM
you guys seriously need to take some chill pills... alot of em...

Black Majik
10-31-2009, 2:29 PM
Going from my above post regarding weak M1A extractors, here are some of the threads listed below.



http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=73926&
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=73278&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=72477&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=71913&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=72195&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=66190&highlight=m1a+extractor


which one do you think is inherently more reliable?

Even with a .308 Saiga, I would still believe it would be inherently more reliable.

sevensix2x51
10-31-2009, 2:35 PM
why all the bagging on m1a's?

i can say from my point of view, ill take the "crappy" cast receiver over a bent piece of sheet metal any day of the week... you get what you pay for...

ps- OP, i love my socom 16, had it out today and it is more accurate than 100% of the shooters who just bagged on it. :p

Black Majik
10-31-2009, 2:41 PM
Honestly, I don't really see any bagging on the M1A. They're fantastic rifles. I think people were just picking apart my post regarding reliability compared to a Saiga.

P.S. I love my M1A too.

socomIInato
10-31-2009, 2:42 PM
Going from my above post regarding weak M1A extractors, here are some of the threads listed below.



http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=73926&
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=73278&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=72477&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=71913&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=72195&highlight=m1a+extractor
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=66190&highlight=m1a+extractor




Even with a .308 Saiga, I would still believe it would be inherently more reliable.

my point is that 308 saiga more than likely does not have alot of engineering dollars put into it as it`s just a civilian export rifle. the ak action it uses was initially designed around a much less powerful cartridge with different dimension. The 308 saiga I`ve seen at the range were not functioning correctly. hardly the reliability you would expect from a AK. they do not impress me, but you get what you pay for.

sevensix2x51
10-31-2009, 2:49 PM
my point is that 308 saiga more than likely does not have alot of engineering dollars put into it as it`s just a civilian export rifle. the ak action it uses was initially designed around a much less powerful cartridge with different dimension. The 308 saiga I`ve seen at the range were not functioning correctly. hardly the reliability you would expect from a AK. they do not impress me, but you get what you pay for.

the other part is the ratio of competitive/regular/internet savvy shooters, who shoot each rifle.
i reckon there are a lot more m1a's in circulation than .308 saigas (by a factor of ten, at least), so of course the failure rate is going to -appear- higher. how many saigas have actually been sold in 308?
and youre going to see a lot of bad things about m1as on a m14 forum, because thats where m14 shooters congregate to share their experience.

black majik, im not trying to be a jerk, but if youve never had a mechanical failure in either your saiga or your m1a, all that you, personally, can say for sure is that theyre both equally reliable. we're all guilty of speculation, im probably one of the worst. oh well. i dont know what im trying to say.
go shoot something guys!

mblat
10-31-2009, 5:16 PM
I have a Super Vepr and I'll bet you it's a lot more accurate than your SOCOM

Isn't Super VEPR has 22" barrel or something like this? You have to compare oranges and oranges - cut the barrel to 16" and then we will talk.
That is said - I started by saying that SOCOM isn't too accurate, so I allow for existence of VEPR that will outshoot it.

====================================

BTW: to everybody else: is somebody says that AK (Saiga) is more reliable than M14 it doesn't mean he hates M14. He merely states what is the fact.

Rob454
10-31-2009, 6:19 PM
if I had a choice between a M1a or variant of that and a Saiga 308 I would get the M1A. Nothing against the Saiga. I have a m14 and I had a saiga. the M14 feels more solid and tight. i think both are great weapons. And battle rifle hell anything you take INTO battle can be a battle rifle. People make it sound like you need to fire off hundreds of thousands of rounds in order to be reliable. Battle rifle LOL. Ive seen cheap rifles break and ive seen expensive rifles break.

wiki wiki
11-01-2009, 12:01 PM
I've shot both, but when it came time to buy, I thought the M1A was worth the extra money. Main reason was the M1A looks so much better, and has infinately better sights and trigger. A cast receiver doesn't bother me any more than a stamped receiver would, plus while it's true a commercial M1A isn't a M14, the same can be said about the saiga, there is enough differences between it and a true AK to make the same argument about it not being as reliable as the real thing.
If saving money was my only concern, yeah I would limit my gun collection to saiga rifles, Hipoint handguns, and Maverick shotguns, but some things are worth paying extra for.

Barney Gumble
11-01-2009, 11:43 PM
I know this discussion has pretty much run its course but I found this tidbit on m14tfl.com (http://m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=76605) and thought it was a useful piece of info. If you know anything about M1As then you know the source (Different) is credible:

The M1A bolts and M1A operating rods are made in the USA. In fact, the operating rods are made in Illinois. The M1A receiver is machined in Illinois as well. The M1A bolts are not made by CZ. I cannot disclose my source but this very credible person knows this information first hand.