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rp55
10-29-2009, 10:55 AM
Searched and did not see a dupe. There's a least one state worse than California. Unanimous decision. McDonald v. Chicago is looking more and more important.

CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/28/taking_liberties/entry5440647.shtml) reports.

N.J. Court Says Americans Have No Right To Buy Handguns

A New Jersey appeals court has concluded that Americans have no Second Amendment right to buy a handgun.

In a case decided last week, the superior court upheld a state law saying that nobody may possess "any handgun" without obtaining law enforcement approval and permission in advance.

That outcome might seem like something of a surprise, especially after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled last year in the D.C. v. Heller case that the Second Amendment guarantees "the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation."

But New Jersey Appellate Division Judge Stephen Skillman wrote on behalf of a unanimous three-judge panel that Heller "has no impact upon the constitutionality of" the state law.

That's because, Skillman said, the Supreme Court did not strike down the District of Columbia's de facto handgun ban but instead simply ordered the city to issue a permit. In other words, while Americans may have the right in general to possess arms, the exact contours of that right have not been mapped, especially as the Second Amendment applies to state laws. (The court's majority opinion last year said: "We therefore assume that petitioners' issuance of a license will satisfy respondent's prayer for relief and do not address the licensing requirement.")

Look for the Supreme Court to revisit this question in a few months when it hears a case called McDonald v. Chicago. It's a constitutional challenge to Chicago's restrictive gun laws, which prohibit anyone from possessing firearms -- even in their homes -- "unless such person is the holder of a valid registration certificate for such firearm."

New Jersey's laws are similar. They say: "No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder... has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section."

Another section dealing with licensing says: "No person of good character and good repute in the community in which he lives, and who is not subject to any of the disabilities set forth in this section or other sections of this chapter, shall be denied a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card, except as hereinafter set forth." Some of the exceptions involve criminal records, for instance.

What prompted the current lawsuit was a request for a handgun purchase permit that Anthony Dubov submitted to the East Windsor Chief of Police. The police chief denied Dubov's request without giving any reason, in what the appeals court later ruled was a violation of state law. The current East Windsor police chief is William Spain.

Oddly, the trial judge upheld that denial, without asking the police chief to testify to explain himself (another violation of state law) and after taking the unusual step of contacting Dubov's previous employers to ask about his background.

Dubov's attorney, Michael Nieschmidt, argued that the state licensing scheme was unconstitutionally vague and therefore violated the Second Amendment.

Skillman concluded that while the Second Amendment doesn't apply, state law and precedent nevertheless required that Dubov receive more due process than he did. The appeals court wrote: "Accordingly, the trial court's affirmance of the police chief's denial of appellant's application for a firearms purchase permit is reversed, and the case is remanded for an evidentiary hearing in conformity with this opinion."

jaymz
10-29-2009, 11:07 AM
http://hoosierarmymom.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/constitution.jpg

yellowfin
10-29-2009, 11:14 AM
New Jersey's idea of rights and constitutionality is like Elton John's attraction to the Swedish bikini team or Hugh Hefner's practice of celibacy.

Dirtbiker
10-29-2009, 11:15 AM
I thought Ca laws were bad... actually they are, just not THAT bad.

Untamed1972
10-29-2009, 11:28 AM
What dept. should I go to to get my "free speech" license and to get assigned to an approved church of the states liking?

Write Winger
10-29-2009, 12:02 PM
What dept. should I go to to get my "free speech" license and to get assigned to an approved church of the states liking?

You beat me to it ;)

Seriously, if the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to all citizens because state law trumps it, how does the 1st, or 4th, or 5th.

dfletcher
10-29-2009, 12:08 PM
So, if you already own the printing press or a paper and pencil you have 1st Amendment rights. But you don't have a right to buy a printing press or a paper & pencil. Well, that makes all sorts of sense.

Eckolaker
10-29-2009, 12:11 PM
The courts ruling is unconstitutional, and thus is immediately null and void.

Joe
10-29-2009, 12:12 PM
There is nothing good about new jersey. I've been there, its an armpit.

bodger
10-29-2009, 12:13 PM
Anyone know if the NRA is on this, and if so, what they are doing to challenge?

Untamed1972
10-29-2009, 12:17 PM
I think that judge is just itchin' for a SCOTUS smack down come next year.

pullnshoot25
10-29-2009, 12:32 PM
I have an uncle in new jersey. What a craphole.

I told him to bring his shotgun with him next time he and I are in Ohio so that we can open carry and he can at least feel like he hasn't been neutered.

What a joke.

Macadelic4
10-29-2009, 12:42 PM
What dept. should I go to to get my "free speech" license and to get assigned to an approved church of the states liking?

So true. In fact, it's the easiest way to win an argument with an anti if he/she is a supporter of 1A:

Anti: "Yeah, we ought to have permits for guns."
Pro: "Alright. But would it make sense for me to require you to have a permit to blog? Or to make you join a government-run HOA in order for your 3A right to be realized?"
Anti: "..."

GrizzlyGuy
10-29-2009, 12:50 PM
Anyone know if the NRA is on this, and if so, what they are doing to challenge?

NRA is at least aware of it:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=13059

Write Winger
10-29-2009, 1:02 PM
Kind of a side note... the majority opinion of the Heller case always kinda annoyed me because, yes, at least they stated that it's an INDIVIDUAL right and not a collective right of the state, but they didn't go any further in their opinion for sweeping changes; they just ruled on that case. Yet, when the 5-4 decision is in the liberal favor, laws are struck down or instituted immediately all over the country it seems.

I guess it shows the character of the true constitutionalists on the court that they don't legislate from the bench, unlike their counterparts. It just would have been nice... just this once, lol.

madmike
10-29-2009, 1:05 PM
My wife once expressed an interest in living in NJ. Only once...

-madmike.

Decoligny
10-29-2009, 1:21 PM
There is nothing good about new jersey. I've been there, its an armpit.

A pit yes, but a little lower than the arm, more like the pit where the backside of the legs meet. ( )*( )

dantodd
10-29-2009, 1:32 PM
So, according to a NJ judge. Heller didn't say you can't force people to get a permit only that they forced D.C. to issue the permit but in NJ they aren't forced to issue a permit. They should have stuck with "We hate guns and won't issue you a permit since 2A isn't incorporated yet you can't make us." It would have been a lot more honest.

Maestro Pistolero
10-29-2009, 1:53 PM
This jerk-off actually did us a favor. This bizarre ruling will certainly come to the attention of the SCOTUS in the upcoming incorporation case. It gives the SCOTUS an opportunity to end the obvious confusion on the part of the New Jersey Court, and slap them down like a trailer park wife with a red-headed step child. I'm keeping the popcorn ready for this one.

tiki
10-29-2009, 2:01 PM
You beat me to it ;)

Seriously, if the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to all citizens because state law trumps it, how does the 1st, or 4th, or 5th.


The 1st and 4th are incorporated.

ponderosa
10-29-2009, 2:32 PM
Man, come on U.S. of A.... get it together, stop all this silliness :(

I hope, truly, that one day we ALL get OUR rights BACK.

CAL.BAR
10-29-2009, 2:56 PM
What dept. should I go to to get my "free speech" license and to get assigned to an approved church of the states liking?

Nicely said!

woodsman
10-29-2009, 3:25 PM
It's bad enough that too many people have the idea that constitutionally protected rights and the freedom they guarantee only apply to those they care about. But judges, activist or not, having the ability to butcher our rights from the bench is frightening.

Hunt
10-29-2009, 3:40 PM
the more I watch this stuff the more convinced I become of Soros and friends conspiracy to use the courts just like CalGuns is but in the opposite direction.
ie to reinforce Sotomayor's idea that infingement is only limited to FEDS the States can do anything they want within their Constitution. makes New Hampshire and Alaska look appealing.

ldsnet
10-29-2009, 5:15 PM
We have a lot riding on incorporation. This ruling reaches WAY beyond the 2nd ammendment. IT will fundamently change the way the states must look at the Constitution.

As much as I would like to see the SCOTUS rule in our favor, I have some misgivings in how the Supremes will rule.

leitung
10-29-2009, 5:31 PM
Go away New Jersey, nobody likes you.

Seesm
10-29-2009, 6:06 PM
Wow I had NO idea where I came from sucked so FREAKING bad. NJ sucks.

bodger
10-29-2009, 8:36 PM
NRA is at least aware of it:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=13059


Good to know it's on NRA radar. Hope we see some action or strategy or something from them about this soon.

How the hell did Jersey get so bad with the 2A? I thought it was mainly the whacky left coast that had asshat polititicians that did stuff like this.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-29-2009, 8:43 PM
It scares me to think that sometimes the only way to get backwards states like NJ and CA to respect the constitution is a *****slap from central government authority.

coolusername2007
10-29-2009, 9:08 PM
We have a lot riding on incorporation. This ruling reaches WAY beyond the 2nd ammendment. IT will fundamently change the way the states must look at the Constitution.

As much as I would like to see the SCOTUS rule in our favor, I have some misgivings in how the Supremes will rule.

Then you better start buying everything you can now while you still can.

coolusername2007
10-29-2009, 9:09 PM
Go away New Jersey, nobody likes you.

:rofl2:

dantodd
10-29-2009, 9:36 PM
As much as I would like to see the SCOTUS rule in our favor, I have some misgivings in how the Supremes will rule.

Which justices do you think would vote against incorporation and why?

hoffmang
10-29-2009, 10:08 PM
This jerk-off actually did us a favor. This bizarre ruling will certainly come to the attention of the SCOTUS in the upcoming incorporation case. It gives the SCOTUS an opportunity to end the obvious confusion on the part of the New Jersey Court, and slap them down like a trailer park wife with a red-headed step child. I'm keeping the popcorn ready for this one.

It is quite unlikely that SCOTUS will ever get this case directly. They might see it mentioned in an Amicus however.

-Gene

nickvig
10-29-2009, 10:12 PM
How is this 'license' any different than the CA requirement of an HSC card for purchasers of handguns?

G-Man WC
10-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Two words... "Mookie Sticks" -g

Maestro Pistolero
10-29-2009, 10:36 PM
It is quite unlikely that SCOTUS will ever get this case directly. They might see it mentioned in an Amicus however.

-Gene
That was my thought, too, Gene. The hubris is astounding. To craft such a decision that doesn't even slightly acknowledge the state of flux of 2A incorporation. At least the courts who punted to the SCOTUS were conscious and respectful of where the ultimate jurisdiction lies. I wonder whose amicus this ends up in.

Nevermore
10-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Wow. Here I was thinking, "How can gun laws in this state possibly get worse?" Then NJ comes along and shows us all how. Thanks, NJ! You're like the morbidly obese kid standing next to the slightly chunky kid... the slightly chunky kid looks normal comparatively speaking!

How is this 'license' any different than the CA requirement of an HSC card for purchasers of handguns?
1) HSC tests aren't administered only by the chief LEO of your city/county
2) HSC isn't "may issue". If you pass, you get it.

Gray Peterson
10-30-2009, 1:48 AM
I have attached the full decision here. Anthony Dubov did technically win. Yes, they made the wrong call on the application of Heller, however you notice here that they treated the 2nd amendment as incorporated against state action. Unfortunately it is not published. Perhaps this can change?

The chief did not follow the proper procedure via a previous case called "Weston", nor did the trial court. Dubov is one of those plaintiffs who unfortunately isn't "clean".

press1280
10-30-2009, 3:19 AM
I don't agree with the OP's assessment of this case. In NJ, you need references to purchase firearms. In this case, the guy's OWN REFERENCES BURNED HIM! How stupid is that? The police chief would obviously be in a tough position if the guy's own friends are telling him that this guy has problems. He did technically win because his due process was denied, and needs a new hearing to determine if he is or is not a danger.
As far as Heller is concerned, I agree with Gray that the judge treats the 2A as already incorporated(the case was only heard a few days before McDonald's petition was accepted by SCOTUS, so he probably knows the writing is on the wall). The licensing is mentioned as being OK as long as it is not in an arbitrary and capricious manner, which in this case it isn't(NJ's CCW on the other hand IS arbitrary and capricious). The judge has a somewhat odd interpretation of Heller, writing it is about military service and hunting, as well as self defense in the home, but I suppose for NJ it's adequate.
I don't see the problem with this decision but IANAL.

BHPFan
10-30-2009, 5:33 AM
I thought Ca laws were bad... actually they are, just not THAT bad.

It's actually much worse in the NorthEast except NH, Maine and possibly Vt.

Regulus
10-30-2009, 7:11 AM
Go away New Jersey, nobody likes you.
:rofl2:

Ahhhh... Now I see why the rest of the country finds it so entertaining to bash California about gun laws. :rolleyes:

ARBITER
10-30-2009, 12:48 PM
It's actually much worse in the NorthEast except NH, Maine and possibly Vt.

I have relatives in New Jersey and once they are approved to purchase firearms
its good for two years (one background check every two years) and no wait.

oldrifle
10-30-2009, 1:30 PM
Let's all fax, email and call to tell Judge Stephen Skillman what the word "infringe" means.

oldrifle
10-30-2009, 1:32 PM
Go away New Jersey, nobody likes you.

Aw, I actually grew up partly in Jersey and if I ever decided to leave CA that's probably where I'd go. It's a beautiful state, but the political climate is similar to Chicago (where I also lived for 5 years). Very liberal and very corrupt. California is a free state compared to NJ and IL.

blacksheep
10-30-2009, 2:24 PM
Aw, I actually grew up partly in Jersey and if I ever decided to leave CA that's probably where I'd go. It's a beautiful state, but the political climate is similar to Chicago (where I also lived for 5 years). Very liberal and very corrupt. California is a free state compared to NJ and IL.

I can buy a barrett .50, can you ?:rolleyes:

forgiven
10-30-2009, 4:28 PM
F..k Jersey!

yellowfin
10-30-2009, 4:36 PM
Liberalism is no excuse or reason for what goes on with New Jersey.

dfletcher
10-30-2009, 5:12 PM
There is nothing good about new jersey. I've been there, its an armpit.

I drove through a few times. Cherry Hill is nice, that's about it. New Jersey license plates should have a picture of a burning tire & the logo "What Stinks?"

leitung
10-30-2009, 5:41 PM
I drove through a few times. Cherry Hill is nice, that's about it. New Jersey license plates should have a picture of a burning tire & the logo "What Stinks?"

:rofl:
I think someone should design that plate and send it in to them as a suggestion..

Capt. Speirs
10-30-2009, 11:44 PM
There is nothing good about new jersey. I've been there, its an armpit.

Your too nice, I was going to say something lower than an armpit.

gunsmith
10-31-2009, 1:05 AM
I went to an anti klan rally in Vineland NJ in the 1980's when I was a young punk rocker from NYC.





How the hell did Jersey get so bad with the 2A? I thought it was mainly the whacky left coast that had asshat polititicians that did stuff like this.

http://www.njhallofshame.com/NomineesPages/Nominee_NJ_KKK.html

Gray Peterson
10-31-2009, 8:25 PM
Since it seems that no one is bothering to read the decision....

We conclude that the trial court's conduct of the
proceedings on the appeal from the denial of appellant's
application for a permit to purchase firearms did not conform
with the requirements of procedural due process set forth in
Weston. Therefore, the order affirming the denial of that
application must be reversed and the matter remanded for a
rehearing conducted in conformity with Weston..........

Appellant suggests that the Supreme Court of the United
States' decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, ___ U.S.
___, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 171 L. Ed. 2d 637 (2008), requires
reconsideration of the constitutionality of N.J.S.A. 2C:58-
3(c)(5). However, Heller did not involve a claim that a
firearms licensing statute was void for vagueness. The issue in
Heller was whether the Second Amendment protects only the right
to possess and carry a firearm in connection with military
service or also protects an individual's right to possess a
firearm for other purposes such as self-defense and hunting.
Id. at ___, 128 S. Ct. at 2789, 171 L. Ed. 2d at 648. The Court
held that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to
keep and bear firearms, id. at ___, 128 S. Ct. at 2799, 171 L.
Ed. 2d at 659, and that this holding required invalidation of
District of Columbia statutes that totally prohibited handgun
possession in the home and required any lawful firearm in the
home to be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock, thus
rendering it inoperable. Id. at ___, 128 S. Ct. at 2817-22, 171
L. Ed. 2d at 678, 679-84.

However, the Court expressly indicated that its holding did
not require invalidation of statutes that require a license to
purchase or possess a firearm. Id. at ___, ___, 128 S. Ct. at
2816-17, 2819, 171 L. Ed. 2d at 678, 680-81. In fact, the Court
noted that "[r]espondent conceded at oral argument that he does
not 'have a problem with . . . licensing' and that the
District's law is permissible so long as it is 'not enforced in
an arbitrary and capricious manner[,]'" thus obviating the need
for the Court to address the validity of the specific provisions
of the District of Columbia's gun licensing statutes. Id. at ___,
128 S. Ct. 2819, 171, L. Ed. 2d at 681. Therefore, Heller has no
impact upon the constitutionality of N.J.S.A. 2C:58- 3(c)(5).

This is a lot of words to write over the 2nd amendment and Heller's application to this state statute for supposedly an amendment that is not incorporated yet. This is also the 2nd time that Heller was treated as incorporated against state action by a NJ court.

It actually wasn't a horrible decision, and something Declan needs to rewrite and update...