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halifax
10-28-2009, 7:01 PM
I've got a customer with a rifle that he will only let one smith work on. The smith is retired and gave up his FFL. He still lives in CA. The rifle is a custom built Winchester 70 made in 1953. It has a new barrel in a different caliber and a new stock. The FFL holders around the retired smith's area (which are very few) want big $$$ to accept a transfer.

My question is: Is this rifle still considered a C&R that could be shipped directly to a non-FFL?

freakshow10mm
10-28-2009, 7:07 PM
If the date of manufacture was 50 years ago, it's a C&R by default.

halifax
10-28-2009, 7:17 PM
If the date of manufacture was 50 years ago, it's a C&R by default.

Great. then I can ship it directly to the smith? (with proper ID, of course.)

Can the owner ship it directly, legally I mean?

tenpercentfirearms
10-28-2009, 10:26 PM
I am pretty sure you can't ship guns to non-01 FFLs unless they shipped it to you in the first place. I could be wrong, but you will want to show me the code that allows this.

I would just tell the guy to ship it to himself at the smith's address. Go up there and open the package and give it to the guy to work on (you can loan people long guns). When he is done, put it back in a box and ship it back to yourself at home.

The FFL you ship it to will have to treat the gun as a transfer on the smiths end anyway and put it into his name. At which point when the gun is shipped back to you, technically you will have to DROS it back to the owner.

Personally as an FFL, I wouldn't want to touch this whole situation with a ten foot pole. As the sending FFL, you don't need to get involved. FFLs don't have to send guns!

Mssr. Eleganté
10-28-2009, 10:44 PM
As an 01 FFL, you can't ship the gun to the unlicensed gunsmith. But if your customer and the unlicensed gunsmith are both California residents then they can ship a 50+ year old C&R long gun back and forth between themselves, no problem.

BATFE might have a problem with the unlicensed gunsmith "engaging in the business" of gunsmithing without an FFL. But that is a separate issue.

halifax
10-28-2009, 11:07 PM
I need to clarify a bit. I didn't want to get involved in this in the first place but my customer asked. The first thing I told him was he needed to ship the rifle to an FFL near the smith and I'd ship it for him if he wanted. The smith was unable to find an FFL near him that was anywhere near reasonably priced. Since the smith is nearly 400 miles distant, shipping still seemed like the best way to go. It occurred to me that the rifle being > 50 years old may present an alternate to the FFL to FFL method. Hence my post.

I am pretty sure you can't ship guns to non-01 FFLs unless they shipped it to you in the first place. I could be wrong, but you will want to show me the code that allows this.

Is CMP a special case or can anyone ship C&R rifles to anyone else not prohibitted?

I would just tell the guy to ship it to himself at the smith's address. Go up there and open the package and give it to the guy to work on (you can loan people long guns). When he is done, put it back in a box and ship it back to yourself at home.

Four hundred miles is a long way for this guy to drive. So, the question would be can you loan a C&R rifle by common carrier?

The FFL you ship it to will have to treat the gun as a transfer on the smiths end anyway and put it into his name. At which point when the gun is shipped back to you, technically you will have to DROS it back to the owner.

The high cost for this is the reason why I started looking for alternatives.

Personally as an FFL, I wouldn't want to touch this whole situation with a ten foot pole. As the sending FFL, you don't need to get involved. FFLs don't have to send guns!

My thoughts also. That is why I'm hoping the owner could just loan the C&R rifle to the smith via direct shipment.

halifax
10-28-2009, 11:13 PM
As an 01 FFL, you can't ship the gun to the unlicensed gunsmith. But if your customer and the unlicensed gunsmith are both California residents then they can ship a 50+ year old C&R long gun back and forth between themselves, no problem.

That was the answer I wanted to hear.

BATFE might have a problem with the unlicensed gunsmith "engaging in the business" of gunsmithing without an FFL. But that is a separate issue.

They are also old friends. So this is just a guy with a special knowledge doing a favor for a friend.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-28-2009, 11:36 PM
Is CMP a special case or can anyone ship C&R rifles to anyone else not prohibitted?

The CMP is a special case because Congress wrote a law exempting them from some of the Gun Control Act transfer restrictions. The guns that the CMP ships don't have to be C&R. They just have to be military surplus rifles in .30 caliber centerfire or .22 rimfire.

Regular people have to ship firearms to an FFL if it is going to a resident of another State. In most States regular people can ship firearms to other residents of the same State without going through an FFL. In California regular people are limited to shipping C&R long guns that are over 50 years old to other Californians without going through an FFL.

halifax
10-28-2009, 11:42 PM
That's why I love this forum. Someone always seems to have the right answer.

Thanks

tenpercentfirearms
10-29-2009, 6:39 AM
The CMP is a special case because Congress wrote a law exempting them from some of the Gun Control Act transfer restrictions. The guns that the CMP ships don't have to be C&R. They just have to be military surplus rifles in .30 caliber centerfire or .22 rimfire.

Regular people have to ship firearms to an FFL if it is going to a resident of another State. In most States regular people can ship firearms to other residents of the same State without going through an FFL. In California regular people are limited to shipping C&R long guns that are over 50 years old to other Californians without going through an FFL.

Do you have the section that specifies this? I think Halifax missed reading between the lines for me. I was implying the guy should ship it to himself like guys that go hunting out of state. Of course he went up there and opened the box and gave it to the guy then drove back later and packaged it back up and sent it back to himself. Not sure why he didn't want to just drive with it, but hey, it is legal.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-29-2009, 7:18 AM
Do you have the section that specifies this?

For which part did you want the section of law? The not needing an FFL to ship within a State part? Or the 50+ year old C&R long gun exemption to California's FFL transfer requirements part?

halifax
10-29-2009, 7:51 AM
Do you have the section that specifies prohibits this? I think Halifax missed reading between the lines for me. I was implying the guy should ship it to himself like guys that go hunting out of state. Of course he went up there and opened the box and gave it to the guy then drove back later and packaged it back up and sent it back to himself. Not sure why he didn't want to just drive with it, but hey, it is legal.

The guy is in his seventies and an 500 mile trip is not in the cards for him.

paul0660
10-29-2009, 8:10 AM
Loans of no more than thirty days between people who know each other are legal and there is NO mention of the need for the loan to be face to face. 12078d.

The rifle is technically not a C&R anymore (if it is on the Federal list) because of the changes made. If it isn't on the Federal list it wasn't exempt from the transfer requirements anyway.

Box it and ship it, it's a loan, and it would be nice to get the work done within a month.

edit, I checked, all Win model 70's before 1963 are Federal C&R, but the point is moot because of the stock and barrel change.

kemasa
10-29-2009, 8:29 AM
What city is the gunsmith in?

halifax
10-29-2009, 8:42 AM
What city is the gunsmith in?

rural monterey county

kemasa
10-29-2009, 9:08 AM
A bit far from me :-). I was just wondering if anyone might be in that area, but it does seem like it is best to avoid going through a FFL unless the work can be quickly done.

EOD Guy
10-29-2009, 2:09 PM
Loans of no more than thirty days between people who know each other are legal and there is NO mention of the need for the loan to be face to face. 12078d.

The rifle is technically not a C&R anymore (if it is on the Federal list) because of the changes made. If it isn't on the Federal list it wasn't exempt from the transfer requirements anyway.

Box it and ship it, it's a loan, and it would be nice to get the work done within a month.

edit, I checked, all Win model 70's before 1963 are Federal C&R, but the point is moot because of the stock and barrel change.

The "original configuration" rule only applies to military firearms.

halifax
10-29-2009, 6:25 PM
Thanks guys for the education.

I just got off the phone with the customer. After all this, he has decided that he and his buddy are going to make the trip to Carmel/Monterey area this weekend. I'm happy because I don't have to worry about anything involved with this. He's happy because he'll be on a road trip with friends doing gun stuff :)