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wyomingite
10-28-2009, 9:50 AM
Californians:

I see on www.secondamendmentmarch.com that noone in your state has volunteered to be the second amendment march coordinator.

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. We need the west coast on board; especially after the "governator" signed that anti-gun ammo bill.

Wyomingite

AndrewMendez
10-28-2009, 9:57 AM
California
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Indiana
Louisiana
Maine (current coordinator is an interim coordinator)
Minnesota
Mississippi
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

Thats a lot of States with no coordinator. What do these duties consist of?

wash
10-28-2009, 9:57 AM
Being in a free state, I don't think you understand our position in CA. We have no RKBA in our state constitution, we only have a privilege until we get second amendment incorporation (from the McDonald vs. Chicago case in SCOTUS).

Until then we want to lay low and not give our legislators any excuse to write more bad laws that will take time and effort to get struck down after we have incorporation.

There is also the PR aspect. If we have 98 people marching in suits and two in overalls, guess who the media is going to pick up on?

H Paul Payne
10-28-2009, 9:59 AM
Californians:

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. Wyomingite

Hey Pal!!!

I have been working with the people on this forum for a long time and I can tell you that I am proud to be fighting along-side of them in defense of the Second Amendment. They have "stepped to the plate" many times and continue to do so.

I think you've come to the wrong place to pick a fight. In my personal opinion, you can take your insults and go somewhere else.

Paul

wash
10-28-2009, 10:13 AM
Paul,

I've only got a farmer tan but I didn't find that insulting...

wildhawker
10-28-2009, 10:16 AM
Thank you, Paul, for your words of support. Coming from the man who blazed the grassroots trails, that is so very and sincerely appreciated. I'm proud to stand amongst countless Calgunners and fellow NRA members who are absolutely going to create a gun-friendly California.

Folks at the NRA and right here at Calguns have made tremendous commitments of time, money and resources to fight very real and tangible anti-gun efforts. While I appreciate the symbolism of a march on the Capitol, I'm afraid the next and only trip to D.C. I will make in the near future will be for McDonald.

In the meantime, wyomingite, California gun owners need *your* help. If you would, do let everyone know that we welcome support from our free-state friends and would be delighted to see many of them right here at Calguns, where they can learn more about what went wrong in California and why (and how) Californians are not going to let these sorts of oppressive laws stand and promulgate into the balance of the US.

Please accept our apologies if we're too busy, in fact, to coordinate or attend the march because every able-bodies man, woman and child here is busy fighting the war on the front lines.

If you would like to discuss this in detail, PM me your telephone number or give Paul a call. Thank you for your interest in our community and welcome to Calguns.

Best,

Brandon Combs

bwiese
10-28-2009, 10:20 AM
Californians:

I see on www.secondamendmentmarch.com (http://www.secondamendmentmarch.com) that noone in your state has volunteered to be the second amendment march coordinator.

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. We need the west coast on board; especially after the "governator" signed that anti-gun ammo bill.

Wyomingite


Because we are not stupid. Sounds like some GOA dudes trying to act relevant.

Marches do NO GOOD at all. Legislators of both parties look out their windows and laugh at the protest marchers, regardless of their cause. How do I know this? Legislative staffers have told me this.

In some cases the marchers may be organized by someone trying to show he has access to some subset of folks so he can sway a legislator about some possibly unrelated issue.

The other problem with mass things like this is there inevitably will be goons in cammies spouting revolutionary BS to the news cameras. Whether these guys are low IQ trailer park dwellers or Bradyite provacatuers remains to be seen (and doesn't matter - same effect in the end). The news crews will always focus on the goons.

When Heller decision was handed down, one of our senior NRA staff in CA was asked by a newsie for "someone dressed in camoflauge who's an NRA member that disagrees with the NRA". Naturally that phone call ended quickly.

Lone_Gunman
10-28-2009, 11:19 AM
Well Wyomingite, I'm sure you are going to get some salty answers to that post. Just be aware that most of the people that frequent the 2A forum here are VERY active in the RKBA fight. Here in California it seems we make the most progress fighting for 2A rights in the courts and not by marching in the streets and scaring the libtards.

-LG

dantodd
10-28-2009, 11:23 AM
Californians:

I see on www.secondamendmentmarch.com that noone in your state has volunteered to be the second amendment march coordinator.

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. We need the west coast on board; especially after the "governator" signed that anti-gun ammo bill.

Wyomingite

Thanks for taking the time to join the board. I hope you stay around. Do a quick search and also browse the 2a area. It helps if you understand a little about what is going on before you accuse people of being complacent by not joining in your futile effort.

ripcurlksm
10-28-2009, 12:29 PM
welcome to the forums wyomingite

i like his rhetoric, I don't think it was meant to be offensive. whether or not a march is needed/appropriate is another question.

7x57
10-28-2009, 12:46 PM
One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate.

That's very offensive. :mad:

Who are you calling suntanned? ;)

7x57

dantodd
10-28-2009, 12:48 PM
One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate.

funny, my wife keeps saying I need to step away from the plate before thirdsies.

OlderThanDirt
10-28-2009, 2:12 PM
Millions of illegal aliens marched several years ago to agitate for citizenship. Look what it got them...mainly the ire of legal citizens. Even they figured out it was the wrong approach.

People in Wyoming had better be nice to Californians or we'll kick your @$$ and take your gas, but, um, we already take a lot of your natural gas anyway.

7x57
10-28-2009, 2:21 PM
People in Wyoming had better be nice to Californians or we'll kick your @$$ and take your gas, but, um, we already take a lot of your natural gas anyway.

I've been in Wyoming in the winter, and I've seen Californians shivering in the balmy comfort of what they mistake for winter. If they don't time it pretty carefully the invading Californians would get worse than what the Russians got from the Finns.

And as for the carefully-timed early summer invasion, the weather's still a problem. Ever see a Wyoming windsock? It's a logging chain shackled to a stout pole. When the chain makes a 90-degree angle with the pole, it's getting windy. :D

7x57

forgiven
10-28-2009, 7:30 PM
Hey, I'm only half sun-tanned. My lower half is pretty darn white.:D

bomb_on_bus
10-28-2009, 7:37 PM
marches just make the rest of the country that much more pissed off at who ever is marching and all they really end up doing is reinforce said stereotypes about said marchers.

bodger
10-28-2009, 8:29 PM
marches just make the rest of the country that much more pissed off at who ever is marching and all they really end up doing is reinforce said stereotypes about said marchers.


Mainly because the media will focus only on those involved in the demonstration who actually do reinforce the stereotype.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, most CalGuns members would probably not present the image of the gun nut. But I'll bet the evening news that night would be chock full of the most gun nut looking folks possible.

It's just so politically incorrect to own a gun in this state.

KylaGWolf
10-28-2009, 8:32 PM
Californians:

I see on www.secondamendmentmarch.com that noone in your state has volunteered to be the second amendment march coordinator.

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. We need the west coast on board; especially after the "governator" signed that anti-gun ammo bill.

Wyomingite

Dude I have stepped up to the plate more than once for 2A rights in this state. You have a lot of balls to come to this forum having only posted three times and say we have done nothing for gun rights in this country. I should ask YOU what have YOU done to further gun rights in this state and country. I have a feeling it will be something akin to NADA! I did all I could to try to have that ammo bill defeated and doing all I can to reverse the bad law. I also talk to others about their legal rights in this state and country in general. I also volunteer time to Calguns in their community groups. So do me a favor and take your sanctimonious BS somewhere else.

I went and checked out the website for this so called march and have to say I am unimpressed. First off the march will more than likely do nothing more than get a token response from the media or will paint everyone there as a nut, gangbanger, wild west mentality. Second name me one protest in the last two decades that has done anything to change thing.

7x57
10-28-2009, 8:57 PM
Protests are really more of a left-wing sacrament, pursued more for their religious significance than practical effect.

If only they'd bathe before the observances.... :chris:

7x57

jmlivingston
10-28-2009, 9:20 PM
And as for the carefully-timed early summer invasion, the weather's still a problem. Ever see a Wyoming windsock? It's a logging chain shackled to a stout pole. When the chain makes a 90-degree angle with the pole, it's getting windy. :D



That's not windy, that's just a breezy afternoon! And weather? Doesn't matter the time of year, just wait 15 minutes and it'll change.

But a fun place to live, for sure. Sinks Canyon, Thermopolis, Powder River, South Pass, lots of exciting places besides the Tetons and Yellowstone.

cbn620
10-28-2009, 9:30 PM
Protests are really more of a left-wing sacrament, pursued more for their religious significance than practical effect.

If only they'd bathe before the observances.... :chris:

7x57

I think I disagree. In general I think today's American style protest is certainly impractical, so we agree there, but I think it is most definiely not limited to the liberal. I think it's limited to the politically butthurt, which I will concede the liberals have been for the better part of the last 20 years in this country.

Protest in America is weak and we haven't gotten crap done with it for decades. But I'd say it's not so much the fault of protesters as it is the system which is simply not built to be changed through legitimate protest. I won't rule out the march as a viable option, but in today's political climate I think it is anything but.

That said I'm sure Fox News would cover such a march favorably, at the very least. And apparently they've got all the ratings.

Any sentiment that we are not doing anything in California simply because we're not parading through the streets, though, is totally bunk and quite far from intellectually honest. These are the front lines and the battlefield is in the courts.

Suvorov
10-29-2009, 6:52 AM
I've been in Wyoming in the winter, and I've seen Californians shivering in the balmy comfort of what they mistake for winter. If they don't time it pretty carefully the invading Californians would get worse than what the Russians got from the Finns.

And as for the carefully-timed early summer invasion, the weather's still a problem. Ever see a Wyoming windsock? It's a logging chain shackled to a stout pole. When the chain makes a 90-degree angle with the pole, it's getting windy. :D

7x57

Quite true - all of it.

There are less that 1/2 a million Wyominites out there. Before you guys judge this guy by his rude introduction, consider me. I have lived on both lines, was raised in Wyoming, and once held the view that Kalifornians got what they deserved, but now that I have been here almost 10 years with "boots on the ground" as they say - I see the enormity of what we are up against.

Wyomingite, there are 10 times more pro-gun Californians as there are people in Wyoming, the problem is we/they are outnumbered two to one. The cultural demographics are entirely different as well and it is much harder to convince the "fence sitters" when they have no understanding or experience with lawful gun ownership. And if you think for a moment, that the anti-gun movement (and to the same extent the leftist agenda) in Kalifornia is entirely home grown, think again, it is national and even international. The other side is focusing their blood and treasure here to win this fight, establish a good beachhead and then pick the rest of the states off. Here in Kalifornia - this IS THE FRONT LINE! So when you ask (somewhat rudely) why no one has joined your Crusade to Washington, please understand that we are already fully engaged.

7x57
10-29-2009, 7:13 AM
That's not windy, that's just a breezy afternoon!


Spoken like a true native.


But a fun place to live, for sure. Sinks Canyon, Thermopolis, Powder River, South Pass, lots of exciting places besides the Tetons and Yellowstone.

You know Powder River? Nice place--all 50 people (actually, more than that I suspect, but not too many more). We have family friends there.

The California invasion will never get that far--no more than half-way from the rockies the amount of open space will start to get on the nerves of the city boys and they'll get shipped home in a fetal position, begging for something to interrupt the horizon.

7x57

dantodd
10-29-2009, 7:17 AM
There are less that 1/2 a million Wyominites out there. Before you guys judge this guy by his rude introduction, consider me. I have lived on both lines, was raised in Wyoming, and once held the view that Kalifornians got what they deserved, but now that I have been here almost 10 years with "boots on the ground" as they say - I see the enormity of what we are up against.

Hopefully the next Californian that moves to Wyoming and demands his city council put street lights on the 100 miles of street serving 300 residents finds a defender such as you to help ease the culture shock.

7x57
10-29-2009, 7:37 AM
Hopefully the next Californian that moves to Wyoming and demands his city council out street lights on the 100 miles of street serving 300 residents finds a defender such as you to help ease the culture shock.

And for verbally defending the local culture against the invasion of Californians determined to reproduce the hell they just fled from, dantodd has my thanks.

7x57

jmlivingston
10-29-2009, 7:45 AM
Spoken like a true native.

No, I'm a native of Idaho. But if I had a 2nd choice? It'd probably be WY.



You know Powder River? Nice place--all 50 people (actually, more than that I suspect, but not too many more). We have family friends there.


We did some camping up on Powder River Pass when I lived in WY (as a kid, growing up). Fishing was awesome, but WOW do they have mosquitos! Worse than Alaska I think, and I've lived there too.....

John

7x57
10-29-2009, 7:46 AM
I think I disagree. In general I think today's American style protest is certainly impractical, so we agree there, but I think it is most definiely not limited to the liberal. I think it's limited to the politically butthurt, which I will concede the liberals have been for the better part of the last 20 years in this country.


There's more of a connection than you think. Protests appeal more to people with an ideology that makes a virtue of rudeness and incivility, and are distasteful to people who make a virtue of civility. Guess which view of incivility is ideologically connected to the left, and which to the right? That's why I called it a "sacrament"; it has an ideological and cultural component entirely disconnected from it's effectiveness.

That said--this *is* changing, apparently, since the tea party movement is basically a lot of people who value civility discovering that there are things they value more than civility. That's on the whole good, because an excess of civility is one of the contributing factors that allowed Britain to decivilize. But it has problems, one of which is that it's unclear that they'll use their movement the right way, which is to use the protests to connect, organize, and motivate the troops to do the things that *actually matter*. If they follow the left's playbook too closely they'll make the mistake of thinking that the protests are action in their own right, which could be fatal.

Protests are only really effective when you have a friendly media that will plump hard for you and a population that can be persuaded by friendly media coverage. Since neither they nor we have either *In California*, they're not useful unless one can simply make them a way to meet and organize. That won't work for our issue and isn't worth the cost if it would.

7x57

Suvorov
10-29-2009, 7:48 AM
And for verbally defending the local culture against the invasion of Californians determined to reproduce the hell they just fled from, dantodd has my thanks.

7x57

Well, that is the problem. Not so much in Wyoming, but was/is blatantly so in Colorado. Many Californians fled California to Colorado and then started to impose their lefty ways. This largely shapes a lot of the anti-Kalifornia attitudes in the Rocky Mountain states. Like I told my wife, if/when we move to Colorado, we are changing our license plates before we get there and I'm taking off her Cal sticker and replacing it with one of my UW stickers.


When I came out here, I figured I'd be just like those guys, but in reverse. But it is very hard to generalize California. I flew cargo to the far flung reaches of Northern California and the Sierras, places like Yreka, Alturas, Portal, and Bishop. These places are much closer in spirit, and thinking to Montana, Wyoming, and Western Colorado than they are to the Bay Area. But the problem once again, is that of population density.

OlderThanDirt
10-29-2009, 10:05 AM
I've been in Wyoming in the winter, and I've seen Californians shivering in the balmy comfort of what they mistake for winter. If they don't time it pretty carefully the invading Californians would get worse than what the Russians got from the Finns.

And as for the carefully-timed early summer invasion, the weather's still a problem. Ever see a Wyoming windsock? It's a logging chain shackled to a stout pole. When the chain makes a 90-degree angle with the pole, it's getting windy. :D

7x57

You mean all those large slatted fences along the highway aren't there to keep the cows off the road? Its the only place I've been where you couldn't tell which way was up by the direction of the blowing snow.

I'm working on a natural gas development project in Sublette County, and when an oil company is only willing to drill in the summer, you know its bad. I found the people in Wyoming to be quite friendly, especially when they realized I wasn't a commie. The California transplants are the nasty ones.

Suvorov
10-29-2009, 11:26 AM
I found the people in Wyoming to be quite friendly, especially when they realized I wasn't a commie. The California transplants are the nasty ones.

I can't tell you how much I miss the simple act of the "2 finger" wave when you meet another car on the road. I still can't get used to the fact that police in Kalifornia hardly ever acknowledge a wave from another driver or pedestrian. I used to tell my wife how in Wyoming, road rage was when drivers didn't wave to each other, she didn't believe me until I took her there.

Oh well, different world.

Now I'm all homesick :(

jmlivingston
10-29-2009, 11:43 AM
Sigh..... All this reminiscing about WY and now I want to move back.

7x57
10-29-2009, 11:51 AM
I found the people in Wyoming to be quite friendly, especially when they realized I wasn't a commie. The California transplants are the nasty ones.

That's essentially it. Hospitality is a custom and obligation--perhaps not as mandatory as in the Middle East, informally it's there.

The rules, however, are suspended for outlaws, rodent vermin, and Californians who want to change the local system. Once you make it clear you're a refugee and not a colonist, you are regarded as a human being worthy of courtesy. Perhaps even the extra kindness one affords to survivors of disasters, refugees from wars, and escapees from California and New York.

You Californians probably think I'm exaggerating in some way. :chris:

Interesting cultural clash--when I volunteered to campaign in Las Vegas last fall, my partner one day kept telling people who answered the door that we were from California. I was *acutely* uncomfortable, because I thought we'd be better off admitting we were kitten abusers who never bathed, or something more socially acceptable like that. It turned out OK, only because the usual social rules of the real West don't seem to apply (after all, LV depends on tourist money and already has so many refugees).

My partner was originally from elsewhere (Europe?) and simply didn't know that elsewhere if he let it be known that we were *Californians* interfering in local politics (the worst of all possible transgressions) we might have been shown the gate with a shotgun. At least metaphorically. But I apparently still remember the rules after so many years of living in Babylon.

Actually, living in Babylon probably reinforces the rules by making clear the reasons they are necesary. :chris: Being in direct contact with California's attitudes toward guns is not exactly undermining that, either.

All the same rules apply to New Yorkers, BTW--probably more strongly except for the fact that California is the main demographic threat. People still remember that California was once Western, or maybe even that the still-Western parts are currently prisoners of war under the occupation of foreign troops from LA and SF. NYC was always the antithesis of everything Good and Proper. On the other hand I think it might be less strong for Chicagoans--probably some cultural memory that Chicago was once part of the West, even a vital one as the ultimate destination for the great cattle drives of the late nineteenth century.

D.C., on the other hand, I think is essentially unspeakable. There are probably other rule nuances that follow that pattern--Boston is probably the same as NY, Dallas is actually just fine (except for the inevitable "whose more Western" kind of rivalry that always follows Texans), and so on.

I'd like to point out to all offended Californians that the rules are highly correlated with the gun rights situation. It's not an accident, but rather a symptom of the deep rules. And also connected to the fact that we, and the Great Compromise that gave us the same number of senators as you have, saved what rights you still have, at least on a Federal level.

Saved them from yourselves, basically. You're welcome. ;)

Wow. This subject is making me very tribal today, isn't it? Too bad I don't have a Stetson and boots so I can go with the feeling.

Remember the Alamo! ;)

7x57

OlderThanDirt
10-29-2009, 12:33 PM
Sigh..... All this reminiscing about WY and now I want to move back.

I'm at work with my office door open onto the deck and wearing shorts and a t-shirt (a very fine SATF Bill of Rights t-shirt). Below is what you are missing in Wyoming (and it's only October):

This Afternoon
Blowing Snow
Hi 22 F

Tonight
Blowing Snow
Lo 12 F

Friday
Blowing Snow
Hi 32 F

Friday Night
Mostly Cloudy
Lo 22 F

Saturday
Mostly Sunny
Hi 41 F

Saturday Night
Partly Cloudy
Lo 26 F

Sunday
Mostly Sunny
Hi 47 F

Sunday Night
Partly Cloudy
Lo 22 F

Monday
Sunny
Hi 48

7x57
10-29-2009, 1:26 PM
I'm at work with my office door open onto the deck and wearing shorts and a t-shirt (a very fine SATF Bill of Rights t-shirt). Below is what you are missing in Wyoming (and it's only October):


You realize that Wyomingites also work in shorts with the door open in balmy weather like that, right? :D

I had a friend who wore shorts year-around when we were in college in Bozeman, Montana. I don't recall him in long pants no matter how much snow was on the ground. It must have happened the week the temperature hit fifty below, but I don't actually remember it. Even if the weather required a jacket, he probably still was wearing shorts.

This was admittedly a bit extreme even by local standards, however. At one point he had to practice a speech and couldn't find a place where he'd be left alone, so he finally went out into the large open lot in front of the dorm and began to pace back and forth in the snow, practicing his delivery with gestures and all. He happened to do this about lunchtime, fully visible from the row of large windows where we ate, so it was an unusual enough display of eccentricity to be rather entertaining to the entire dorm.

Unfortunately for him, this also happened to be in front of an all-women's dorm, and apparently after a half-hour or so some of the inhabitants were less entertained than we were. The show got much more interesting than anyone expected when campus security showed up to question the possibly dangerous nut about why he was talking to thin air in that state of dress in front of the women's dorm.

Which might not have even been worthy of remark at some California schools.

7x57

Flopper
10-29-2009, 3:15 PM
I'm at work with my office door open onto the deck and wearing shorts and a t-shirt (a very fine SATF Bill of Rights t-shirt). Below is what you are missing in Wyoming (and it's only October):

This Afternoon
Blowing Snow
Hi 22 F

Tonight
Blowing Snow
Lo 12 F

Friday
Blowing Snow
Hi 32 F

Friday Night
Mostly Cloudy
Lo 22 F

Saturday
Mostly Sunny
Hi 41 F

Saturday Night
Partly Cloudy
Lo 26 F

Sunday
Mostly Sunny
Hi 47 F

Sunday Night
Partly Cloudy
Lo 22 F

Monday
Sunny
Hi 48

It's pretty telling when the only comeback we have to living in other states is, "Oh yeah??? Well, we have mild weather, so there :p"

And people wonder why other states look at us like wimps. I lived in WA for a couple of years, and the other CA transplants would be bundled up for a Siberian blizzard when it was 60 degrees.

gbp
10-29-2009, 3:24 PM
we eat our own

jdberger
10-29-2009, 3:36 PM
we eat our own

Sometimes.

They taste like chicken.

jdberger
10-29-2009, 3:46 PM
Actually, the Second Amendment March appears to be a project of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners (http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/) which bills itself as the largest State based firearms advocate in America (bigger than VCDL?).

They have a PAC and a 501 (c) (3) fundraising arm. (http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_about.asp)

MCRGO representatives are actively involved with proposed legislation in Michigan. Many times we have been the only pro-gun group testifying at committee hearings. MCRGO was closely involved in the passage of concealed carry reform and legislation which protects firearms manufacturers, distributors and dealers from lawsuits by cities and counties. We have become the "gun group" to which legislators and media representatives turn when they want information or perspective on gun-related issues in Michigan.

Interesting organization. (Brandon - you seeing this?)

Still, the March doesn't appeal to me.

I ain't only got one pair of clean overalls and I wear them to church on Sundays.

:D

oaklander
10-29-2009, 3:56 PM
This psychographic will shed light on the issue:

http://i35.tinypic.com/6nrv52.jpg

bwiese
10-29-2009, 4:15 PM
Oak, that's a good diagram.

I didn't know massage parlors had computer/net access.



<j/k>

7x57
10-29-2009, 4:41 PM
This psychographic will shed light on the issue:

http://i35.tinypic.com/6nrv52.jpg

Once again, I suggest, nay *demand* a softcover book of "Oaklander's greatest charts and graphs" as a CGN or CGF fundraiser.

Hey, it beats me culling a book of "Zombies, Nutcases, and Girls With Guns: the most demanded, most DEMENTED threads from Calguns' wacky side." Which represents us better--our most demented lunatic discussions or Oaklander's charts? :43:

You know I'm desperate to see the book when I concoct crazy threats like that, huh?

7x57

oaklander
10-29-2009, 9:18 PM
LOL - I'm starting to put them on my blog at http://kevinthomason.blogspot.com/

I've got about 30 that I've saved!!!

Will try and get most of them up in the next few days!!!!

Once again, I suggest, nay *demand* a softcover book of "Oaklander's greatest charts and graphs" as a CGN or CGF fundraiser.

Hey, it beats me culling a book of "Zombies, Nutcases, and Girls With Guns: the most demanded, most DEMENTED threads from Calguns' wacky side." Which represents us better--our most demented lunatic discussions or Oaklander's charts? :43:

You know I'm desperate to see the book when I concoct crazy threats like that, huh?

7x57

oaklander
10-29-2009, 9:19 PM
When I am there, they have a "big pipe."

Oak, that's a good diagram.

I didn't know massage parlors had computer/net access.



<j/k>

cbn620
10-29-2009, 11:41 PM
There's more of a connection than you think. Protests appeal more to people with an ideology that makes a virtue of rudeness and incivility, and are distasteful to people who make a virtue of civility. Guess which view of incivility is ideologically connected to the left, and which to the right? That's why I called it a "sacrament"; it has an ideological and cultural component entirely disconnected from it's effectiveness.

That said--this *is* changing, apparently, since the tea party movement is basically a lot of people who value civility discovering that there are things they value more than civility. That's on the whole good, because an excess of civility is one of the contributing factors that allowed Britain to decivilize. But it has problems, one of which is that it's unclear that they'll use their movement the right way, which is to use the protests to connect, organize, and motivate the troops to do the things that *actually matter*. If they follow the left's playbook too closely they'll make the mistake of thinking that the protests are action in their own right, which could be fatal.

Protests are only really effective when you have a friendly media that will plump hard for you and a population that can be persuaded by friendly media coverage. Since neither they nor we have either *In California*, they're not useful unless one can simply make them a way to meet and organize. That won't work for our issue and isn't worth the cost if it would.

7x57

My problems with this are twofold:

1) I fail to see how anything left of center is automatic grounds of any desire to be uncivil, if that is what you are implying (and it would appear you are.)

2) I think it's unfair to give the Tea Party guys a break from this universal you define when so many of them were acting as very much the fringe whack-a-doos out for the politically butt-hurt sacrament we're all talking about. If, for instance, some theoretical Calguns march were to come to fruition and members of this forum were marching with some of the kinds of signs Tea Party-ers were marching with, we'd have the same sort of public relations nightmare we're all talking down on protest marches for.

The relationship between both of these issues I take with your reasoning are telling. I think you are poisoning the well on protest marches as something that only a liberal would resort to while considering "conservative" marches a game changer, despite any real difference between the two. And I think this talk of being "civil" and "uncivil" has more to do with a certain diametric politics than anything.

oaklander
10-30-2009, 12:22 AM
Ta-da!

I have a graph that deals with this:

http://kevinthomason.blogspot.com/2009/10/press-bias-against-guns-graphic.html

:D

My problems with this are twofold:

1) I fail to see how anything left of center is automatic grounds of any desire to be uncivil, if that is what you are implying (and it would appear you are.)

2) I think it's unfair to give the Tea Party guys a break from this universal you define when so many of them were acting as very much the fringe whack-a-doos out for the politically butt-hurt sacrament we're all talking about. If, for instance, some theoretical Calguns march were to come to fruition and members of this forum were marching with some of the kinds of signs Tea Party-ers were marching with, we'd have the same sort of public relations nightmare we're all talking down on protest marches for.

The relationship between both of these issues I take with your reasoning are telling. I think you are poisoning the well on protest marches as something that only a liberal would resort to while considering "conservative" marches a game changer, despite any real difference between the two. And I think this talk of being "civil" and "uncivil" has more to do with a certain diametric politics than anything.

7x57
10-30-2009, 12:27 AM
1) I fail to see how anything left of center is automatic grounds of any desire to be uncivil, if that is what you are implying (and it would appear you are.)


I have been to both. So far, the data is absolutely unanimous. Go look at the pictures of the capitol mall after the recent protest--the people were clean, and they left the place clean.

The protest before that were those outside of Sarah Palin's SoCal appearance. I'd have been willing to purchase the soap, if I could afford that much. They'd have had to be gagged for me to come close, though, they couldn't open their mouths without obscenities coming out.


2) I think it's unfair to give the Tea Party guys a break from this universal you define when so many of them were acting as very much the fringe whack-a-doos out for the politically butt-hurt sacrament we're all talking about.


And now we know your prejudices.

In any event, you do not account for the vast difference in circumstance. Having been to a few it is clear that what they accomplish is for themselves. The media coverage is just as negative as it would be for gun owners, after all it's the same ideological attack by the same people on the same culture they despise.

However, it's clear that those involved do *not* (well, did not, they're now using social networking sites extensively) have the communications channels we do--after all we started organizing right after the '68 GCA, and Calguns ties the California activists together very well. They have *none* of that. At the start, it seems the great discovery was that they weren't alone.

When you are starting from scratch with people with no history of organization or action, it doesn't matter how negative the portrayal--if you don't get them together to exchange emails, there is no movement. That's the difference in circumstance--you have to do whatever you can to get your people together. We're already together and have more effective strategies. We don't need to pay such a high cost to figure out that we're not the only people who care about the Second Amendment and who they are.


The relationship between both of these issues I take with your reasoning are telling. I think you are poisoning the well on protest marches as something that only a liberal would resort to while considering "conservative" marches a game changer, despite any real difference between the two. And I think this talk of being "civil" and "uncivil" has more to do with a certain diametric politics than anything.

Since you're clearly partisan, perhaps you simply see yourself in a mirror.

The game changer is the difference between having a movement and not having a movement, and having no existing plan of action that promise better results. That should be clear. We're not in that situation.

And while it's not really apropos, my main objection to the Tea Party concept was always that it does little that one can see. The fact that their public perception trended positive according to the polls contradicts my expectation. It did not seem to me to be obviously their best strategy.

It is from attending a few that I learned that they had no other options until they started meeting and figuring out who and what they were. In Southern California, they also had to learn that there were, in fact, others that agreed with them. (This is evident from other happenstance gatherings of Conservatives, not just the Tea Parties). Gun-rights people already know those things. We have an army of volunteers, good lobbyists in Sacramento, communications channels, and shared goals.

Basically, we're grown up and have the capability to do grown up things, like play hardball in the legislature. The Tea Parties are working that out. The smarter ones are creating precinct-level organization for 2010--that means they're growing up too. But they aren't there yet, and we are.

At some point, they may have too many other activities to protest at all, especially since it just makes them a big target for the dinosaur media.

7x57

Rascal
10-30-2009, 5:38 PM
Ta-da!

I have a graph that deals with this:

http://kevinthomason.blogspot.com/2009/10/press-bias-against-guns-graphic.html

:D

Yea, but you forgot Paris Hilton, Octomom, and the Grosselins in your graph. :p

cbn620
10-30-2009, 6:03 PM
I think we agree more than disagree, but how can you say I'm clearly partisan when I'm simply saying there is no "good side" to protest marches in today's political climate. I'm saying both sides of America's political duopoly are bound to have those who fail to represent the movement, the issue, etc. while doing nothing but detracting from it. This is what you were arguing at the beginning of the thread and I was there with you, I only really began to detract from your line of reasoning with this talk of anything leftist being automatically "uncivil" by nature, and that somehow the right wing is exempt from the rule.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but with all due respect I just want to make it clear I am absolutely not "partisan." I am registered independent, and if I were towing the Democratic party line I would not be on a site supporting gun rights. I am definitely left of something, but I do not consider myself a liberal and disagree vehemently with people who tend to call themselves such (i.e. your typical trade marked party line "liberal Democrats").

wildhawker
11-01-2009, 5:35 PM
1. The book of graphs should be titled "99 Graphs That Got Me Banned" :D :D

2. Just received this by email, interesting that I *never* signed up for RKBA Forum:

wildhawker,

As you all may or may not know the Second Amendment March is coming up on April 19 2010. This function is the most important event for gun rights of all time. If we can get one million gun owners out to Washing DC on April 19 2010 it would make a statement world wide. A statement that would tell the world that we want our guns.

The second amendment march needs your help. The march is only 6 months away and donations seem to be low. I am not part of the SAM committee or hold any other title for the SAM. I am sending this to the registered users of my forum only. RTKBA.com.

The lack of donations seems to me that gun owners are either not interested or broke. I know we are all broke but if we could just get all the gun owners that chat on all the gun forums to donate $10 or $20 then it would really make a difference.

Our sister site. CCW Targets ( http://ccwtargets.com ) is donating 10% of every purchase of our SAM combo pack to the Second Amendment March. To this day we are pleased to announce that we have donated over $100 to the march and will continue to do so for the next six months.

If gun owners do not step up and support this cause, not only will they be hurting every gun owner out there but the leftist news media will use our own event against us. I know most gun owners do not want to make waves or call attention to themselves, hell I don't want to call attention to myself. But if we do nothing then we are doomed and so are our guns.

I hope to see you all in DC on April 19 2010 and please donate to the Second Amendment March, every little bit helps.

Stay safe
Charlie Marracco

The Second Amendment March Website
http://secondamendmentmarch.com/


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KylaGWolf
11-01-2009, 9:56 PM
Wildhaker I think you have been spammed. I can almost bet it was our OP that did it. I went to the march website and can say I am way underwhelmed. From everything I have seen on the GOA I am not impressed. I figure if I am going to put money to help 2A I will put it where I know for a fact it will go for that. So my choices would be CGF, NRA, and CPRA.

Oaklander love the blog.

tboyer
11-01-2009, 10:20 PM
Californians:

I see on www.secondamendmentmarch.com that noone in your state has volunteered to be the second amendment march coordinator.

One of you suntanned gun fanatics needs to step to the plate. We need the west coast on board; especially after the "governator" signed that anti-gun ammo bill.

Wyomingite

It as been sunnier than is my preference this summer in
San Francisco.

As for stepping up to the plate we have had Calgunners
march in support of the Pink Pistols in the San Francisco
Gay Parade.
Would you be willing to march in a gay parade if you werent
gay?

Calgunners step up to the plate constantly.

Thank you though for posting on Calguns, I feel it is
vary important for freedom loving firearm enthusiast,
not just in the United States, but the whole world to
learn from each other.

oaklander
11-01-2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks!

:D

Wildhaker I think you have been spammed. I can almost bet it was our OP that did it. I went to the march website and can say I am way underwhelmed. From everything I have seen on the GOA I am not impressed. I figure if I am going to put money to help 2A I will put it where I know for a fact it will go for that. So my choices would be CGF, NRA, and CPRA.

Oaklander love the blog.

mikehaas
11-02-2009, 6:27 AM
"Marching" is lame. Ever hear of attending a hearing? Organizing a letter-writing campaign? Recruiting for NRA?

No, instead let's host a PUBLIC EVENT where guns are likely to show up (they show up at TEA PARTY events, fer chrissakes, to our clear detriment!)

Let's organize to SCARE THE HELL out of the average American (the ones we're trying to WIN OVER). As long as it FEELS GOOD to us, it must be a good idea, right? (Reminds me of the nasty, self-centered and underhanded people running that CA RKBA Initiative years ago, or the Silveira case - SOME PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO COMMON SENSE.) LET'S FORCETHE GUN ISSUE FRONT AND CENTER AND HELP OUR ENEMIES SPREAD FEAR ABOUT GUNS.

Do us all a favor and "step up" by standing down.

Maestro Pistolero
11-02-2009, 8:16 AM
"Marching" is lame. Ever hear of attending a hearing? Organizing a letter-writing campaign? . . .Let's organize to SCARE THE HELL out of the average American (the ones we're trying to WIN OVER) . . .
I'm glad Martin Luther King didn't subscribe to your point of view. People in the 60s were way more afraid of blacks than firearms, but thank God, they got over it, in part because marchers forced the issue.

nicki
11-02-2009, 10:30 AM
The Second amendment march really needs to show strong activity on the East Coast first, especially by firearms owners who reside within 300 miles of Washington DC who could make the march a day trip.

The cost to attend the march for a east coast gun owner would be around 100 dollars, the cost for a California gun owner would be in the range of 600 to 1000 dollars.

From our perspective, if we don't see significant movement on the east coast for this action, it doesn't make much sense to deplete what resources we do have fighting gun laws on the Leftern front to go to the Eastern front.

The Second amendment foundation and the NRA rotate where they hold their annual events in different parts of the country because they recognize that most people will drive, but except for the hard core, few will fly.

Except for people who would be key speakers, the most cost effective thing for Californian's and others who reside more than say 500 miles from DC would be to donate money to help subsidize transport for attendees who may be out of work, but have time to burn so to speak.

There has got to be over 20 million gun owners within 300 miles of Washington DC.

If those people are unwilling to get involved when time/money commitment is minimal, then why should we get involved when our involvement would require 5 to 10X the involvement.

We have 10,000 active members on this board. It would be better uses of our resources at this point to fund the Calguns foundation and the second amendment foundation than attend the march.

California is the big battleground state since this is where many stupid gun laws are created.

Nicki

Sgt Raven
11-02-2009, 11:22 AM
"Marching" is lame. Ever hear of attending a hearing? Organizing a letter-writing campaign? Recruiting for NRA?

No, instead let's host a PUBLIC EVENT where guns are likely to show up (they show up at TEA PARTY events, fer chrissakes, to our clear detriment!)

Let's organize to SCARE THE HELL out of the average American (the ones we're trying to WIN OVER). As long as it FEELS GOOD to us, it must be a good idea, right? (Reminds me of the nasty, self-centered and underhanded people running that CA RKBA Initiative years ago, or the Silveira case - SOME PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO COMMON SENSE.) LET'S FORCETHE GUN ISSUE FRONT AND CENTER AND HELP OUR ENEMIES SPREAD FEAR ABOUT GUNS.

Do us all a favor and "step up" by standing down.

Mike, Mike, Mike you really want to say that Don Kilmer EQUALS Gary Gorski? Do you really want to open your big mouth and say THAT?

ETA: 943. (SA01RF0041).

Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Initiative Constitutional Amendment.
Summary Date: 12/28/01 Circulation Deadline: 05/28/02 Signatures Required: 670,816

Proponents: Donald Kilmer Esq., Geoffrey M. Metcalf (408) 998-8489

Amends the California Constitution to add a personal right to keep and bear arms for defense of self, family, and home. Requires state to prove a compelling government interest for any action regulating the keeping and bearing of arms. Provides that this amendment, and such state laws as it allows, take precedence over county, city, and local government regulations on this subject. Allows the state to continue regulating the acquisition or possession of arms by felons, minors, mentally incompetent persons, or persons subject to restraining orders based on their violent conduct. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would result in unknown, potential costs to the state and unknown net fiscal effects on local governments.
from here:http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_j_060602.htm

Sgt Raven
11-02-2009, 12:46 PM
So you remember that you knew Don was involved with the RKBA Initiative, here's your post from an earlier thread:

Thanks all for the vote of confidence, but I'm not a representative of NRA, I'm a volunteer. Don't set policy (I am asked my opinion), just support/help implement it. I can't discuss NRA's plans or internal discussions publicly - no gun owner should want that! Public forums are not the best place for laying out strategies, y'know?

But as far as the RKBA Initiative, NRA was VERY vocal about their thoughts in 2000 (Initiative #1). The leadership (Wayne, Sandy, Kayne, Board members, lobbyist, etc) even came out to California and held 2 meetings to address the issue of the growing RKBA Initiative movement back then - one in Northern CA (Burlingame), the other in So. Cal (Culver City). Hundreds of members showed in both meetings, NRA directly addressed "Why aren't you supporting the RKBA Initiative?" and any other question, right down to the dollars and details of the political scene. Even Don Kilmer and Geoff Metcalf were at the Burlingame meeting. They weren't happy, but they were there.

Was anybody on this forum at those meetings? I was - helped organize both meetings. (Drove down to Culver City just for the southern meeting, then right back! Yes, I was younger then :-) NRA laid it all out, no hedging - each meeting took HOURS. I guess NRA doesn't budget for an annual trip to CA to explain why the RKBA Initiative is not a very good tact for California (and in fact is dangerous to gun rights and candidates who support RKBA), and this is the third time it's been proposed.

We could discuss some of the content of those meetings, but I'm not sure it would be productive. There are obviously some strong proponents of the initiative here and nobody wants to antagonize them. I try to remember who the enemy is - it's not RKBA Initiative supporters - we're on the same team, even if we don't agree about this one issue.

But in those 2000 meeting, they fully explained why they were not supporting the RKBA Initiative.

Mike