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View Full Version : WTK-WHERE is it stated we cant buy bare receivers as..bare receivers!?


DisgruntledReaper
10-27-2009, 12:34 AM
Hi to the legal eagles...this issue has been tormenting me..

On the NEW FFL forms there is a spot that SAYS 'rifle','pistol', 'RECEIVER' ...WHY and WHERE isit SPECIFICALLY stated in the DOinJ pile of goo that says we CANNOT buy a bare receiver in this state?? That we HAVE to state it is for a rifle and lock ourselves in..Reason is that I want a couple receivers but dont know what I will build them into(if I am lucky and can move out of here I will do them as SBR/AOW/Pistol but for now i just want a few on hand so I at least have them and decide later down the road..

Can someone PLEASE point me in the direction,post a link,etc otherwise I am going to insist on doing the paperwork as a receiver...hell we have to wait 10 days anyway.. I cant find squat regarding this...just word of mouth...

Thank you very much legal eagles!

leelaw
10-27-2009, 1:05 AM
California DROS requires that the firearm or receiver be identified as being for a pistol or a longgun, due to the way we register (or don't) firearms here.

ATF has decided that receivers are "other firearms" and, if not assembled into anything prior to the purchase, are not locked into being either pistols or longguns.

You won't be able to purchase a frame as a "non longgun or pistol firearm frame" in California. However, purchasing one as a longgun frame does not lock it into being a rifle or shotgun. It can later be built -in compliance with local, state and federal laws- into the SBS, SBR, or AOW that you want, once out of California.

I'm not sure if buying a bare receiver and DROSing it as a longgun receiver will change the federal status of it, and thus make turning it into a pistol when out of state run afoul of SBR law, but my gut feeling is that it doesn't, as long as you don't build it into a rifle beforehand.

mikehaas
10-27-2009, 7:49 AM
It's the "gun" - the part with the serial number.

See - don't you feel safer?

Flopper
10-27-2009, 9:44 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that we can't do this because of a technicality. It's not forbidden, but there's just no way to mark it as a "receiver" or "frame" on the DROS.

At best it's an oversight; at worst it's illegal Underground Regulation.

CHS
10-27-2009, 11:36 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that we can't do this because of a technicality. It's not forbidden, but there's just no way to mark it as a "receiver" or "frame" on the DROS.

At best it's an oversight; at worst it's illegal Underground Regulation.

This.

Federally a receiver is a receiver is a receiver. It's not a handgun or long gun. A receiver can be built into any legal firearm that the owner wishes. Pistol, rifle, shotgun, whatever.

However, in CA when a dealer does a sale he has to electronically submit your information for the background check. Part of this submission is that the dealer must choose the type of firearm and there are ONLY TWO choices: Long gun or Handgun.

Since we can't DROS a frame as a handgun (which would require registration, HSC, rostering, etc), dealers choose "long gun".

However, there is no law saying a long gun can't become a handgun. A RIFLE can't become a handgun, but a "long gun" that has no buttstock and was not designed to fire from the shoulder can legally go below 26" and become a handgun.

I have always been of the opinion that it is perfectly legal to DROS an AR receiver as a long gun and build a handgun out of it. However, be prepared to defend yourself because if you get caught with it, it will be an unregistered handgun. You could always self-register with the form you download from the DoJ though.

But "The right people" tend to discourage this behavior.

shadowofnight
10-27-2009, 11:58 AM
I purchased 3 custom machined receivers last year to be made into custom 10/22's....2 of which are already rifles...one receiver sits unused at the moment. Could I use this to build my own 10/22 pistol ? Basically like Ruger's factory Charger ?

They sell the trick stocks and barrels just for that, if it's legal to do I would love to use that receiver for a build like that... The Charger isnt legal here in CA because it's magazine fed with a pistol grip ( AW )...is there anything I can do stockwise to make a legal variant and still use the shorter barrel? Any input appreciated.


P.S. The receivers were DROS'd as rifles...but after reading bdsmchs reply....it might be feasable after all :)


http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/354L.jpg


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36291&d=1256672765

CHS
10-27-2009, 12:16 PM
Could I use this to build my own 10/22 pistol ? Basically like Ruger's factory Charger ?

They sell the trick stocks and barrels just for that, if it's legal to do I would love to use that receiver for a build like that... The Charger isnt legal here in CA because it's magazine fed with a pistol grip ( AW )...is there anything I can do stockwise to make a legal variant and still use the shorter barrel? Any input appreciated.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/354L.jpg

You would need a magazine lock/bullet button to make it legal in CA, and you would not be allowed to use your hi-caps with it with the bullet button installed.

cbn620
10-27-2009, 1:18 PM
I don't believe AW law would apply to a rimfire firearm. I believe 10/22's can have pistol grips and detachable mags.

CHS
10-27-2009, 1:24 PM
I don't believe AW law would apply to a rimfire firearm. I believe 10/22's can have pistol grips and detachable mags.

You would be wrong.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

A semi-automatic pistol, that accepts a magazine outside of the pistol grip = AW.

Doesn't matter if it's rimfire or centerfire.

---------------------------------------

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding PC section 12276, assault weapon shall
also mean the following: Pistols

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward
handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the
barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or
her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.

OR

(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds.

curtisfong
10-27-2009, 1:32 PM
Doesn't matter if it's rimfire or centerfire.


That has always confused me in the flow chart... I wish the flowchart actually showed which laws are centerfire specific in a more obvious fashion.

CHS
10-27-2009, 2:05 PM
That has always confused me in the flow chart... I wish the flowchart actually showed which laws are centerfire specific in a more obvious fashion.

There are THREE sets of AW regulations:


Those that apply to rifles
Those that apply to handguns
Those that apply to shotguns


The regulations applying to rifles specify centerfire, and therefore rimfire rifles are not covered and are exempt.

The regulations applying to handguns DO NOT specify centerfire, and therefore encompass both centerfire and rimfire handguns.

FYI, the original flowchart only applies to rifles and specifically says centerfire. Now there are flowcharts for both shotguns and handguns, and they each let you know what they apply to and how.

SJgunguy24
10-27-2009, 2:15 PM
That has always confused me in the flow chart... I wish the flowchart actually showed which laws are centerfire specific in a more obvious fashion.

It does, it states relevent PC and you can just open up another page and look those up. California gun laws are written to be confusing. IMO it's vague so the LEO will just arrest and or take any questionable firarms and then make the process next to inpossible to get the firarms back. Therefore their work is done, get guns out of peoples hands at the costs of your freedom.

They don't care about guns and freedom, only if you smoke dope and want to marry another dude. At least thats the crap I see being pushed through.
They like to pick and choose the constitution and what they want to fight for, me i'll take the whole thing and what it stands for, even the stuff I don't like.

DisgruntledReaper
10-27-2009, 2:19 PM
thank you for the info guys...I am a bit less confused but no less pissssed off.

Thanks all! It also did not occur to me that the pistol chart INCLUDED 22LR or rimfire period......i mesn come on..a 22lr assault pistol:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::banghead::cen sored:

wash
10-27-2009, 2:21 PM
California DROS requires that the firearm or receiver be identified as being for a pistol or a longgun, due to the way we register (or don't) firearms here.

ATF has decided that receivers are "other firearms" and, if not assembled into anything prior to the purchase, are not locked into being either pistols or longguns.

You won't be able to purchase a frame as a "non longgun or pistol firearm frame" in California. However, purchasing one as a longgun frame does not lock it into being a rifle or shotgun. It can later be built -in compliance with local, state and federal laws- into the SBS, SBR, or AOW that you want, once out of California.

I'm not sure if buying a bare receiver and DROSing it as a longgun receiver will change the federal status of it, and thus make turning it into a pistol when out of state run afoul of SBR law, but my gut feeling is that it doesn't, as long as you don't build it into a rifle beforehand.
That's interesting, if you buy a long gun receiver in CA, then take it out of state and make it a pistol, what stops you from bringing it back in state?

You didn't import anything...

Gray Peterson
10-27-2009, 2:25 PM
They don't care about guns and freedom, only if you smoke dope and want to marry another dude.

California gun law is not difficult to understand if you're willing to educate yourself and use the flowchart system to great effect. As for everything else, trying to combine your homophobia with the anti-gun bigotry, it only deserves one response: Shut your pie hole. You poorly represent gun owners in California by acting like a bigot towards gay people.

DisgruntledReaper
10-27-2009, 2:27 PM
This.

Federally a receiver is a receiver is a receiver. It's not a handgun or long gun. A receiver can be built into any legal firearm that the owner wishes. Pistol, rifle, shotgun, whatever.

However, in CA when a dealer does a sale he has to electronically submit your information for the background check. Part of this submission is that the dealer must choose the type of firearm and there are ONLY TWO choices: Long gun or Handgun.

Since we can't DROS a frame as a handgun (which would require registration, HSC, rostering, etc), dealers choose "long gun".

However, there is no law saying a long gun can't become a handgun. A RIFLE can't become a handgun, but a "long gun" that has no buttstock and was not designed to fire from the shoulder can legally go below 26" and become a handgun.

I have always been of the opinion that it is perfectly legal to DROS an AR receiver as a long gun and build a handgun out of it. However, be prepared to defend yourself because if you get caught with it, it will be an unregistered handgun. You could always self-register with the form you download from the DoJ though.

But "The right people" tend to discourage this behavior.

Interesting....I suppose you would have to self register the AR/AK/etc platform based pistols as 'single shot' on the self registration form instead of 'semi' due to the AW issues and 'Roster' issues or would 'semi' be fine to mark since it becomes a PPT IF one were to try to sell it in the future....actually I guess doing it as a single shot would make more legally safe sense....:confused::cool:

ke6guj
10-27-2009, 2:41 PM
Thanks all! It also did not occur to me that the pistol chart INCLUDED 22LR or rimfire period......i mesn come on..a 22lr assault pistol:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::banghead::cen sored:I did not think it was neccessary to say that the pistol chart included rimfire pistols. With both the handgun and shotgun charts, I started from scratch as I asked the questions to determine legality, not like the rifle AW chart that already assumes "centerfire rifle" before you even start the flowchart. Since the rules for rimfire handguns are the same as centerfire handguns, there was no need to differentiate between them.

wash
10-27-2009, 2:44 PM
California gun law is not difficult to understand if you're willing to educate yourself and use the flowchart system to great effect. As for everything else, trying to combine your homophobia with the anti-gun bigotry, it only deserves one response: Shut your pie hole. You poorly represent gun owners in California by acting like a bigot towards gay people.
He's not saying that he's against that, just that those are the topics our legislature seems to be concerned with right now.

Dirtbiker
10-27-2009, 2:49 PM
California gun law is not difficult to understand if you're willing to educate yourself and use the flowchart system to great effect. As for everything else, trying to combine your homophobia with the anti-gun bigotry, it only deserves one response: Shut your pie hole. You poorly represent gun owners in California by acting like a bigot towards gay people.


So I guess youre ok with the smoking dope part??

Youre being overly sensitive, please lighten up.

curtisfong
10-27-2009, 2:52 PM
Apologies in advance if this is offtopic.


The regulations applying to rifles specify centerfire, and therefore rimfire rifles are not covered and are exempt.

The regulations applying to handguns DO NOT specify centerfire, and therefore encompass both centerfire and rimfire handguns.


But that leaves the area of rimfire rifles in a confusing area.... magazine well outside grip, SBR, long overall length, "fired from the shoulder", none of those are rimfire handguns, are they?

CHS
10-27-2009, 3:18 PM
But that leaves the area of rimfire rifles in a confusing area.... magazine well outside grip, SBR, long overall length, "fired from the shoulder", none of those are rimfire handguns, are they?

There is nothing confusing about rimfire rifles.

AW reg's apply to firearms configured as rifles ONLY if they chamber a centerfire round.

AW regs apply to handguns NO MATTER what kind of round they chamber.

You're confusing things like magwell outside the pistol grip. That doesn't apply to rifles. Inside the actual legislation there are *THREE* sections that apply different sets of criteria to different types of firearms.

One set for handguns.
One set for rifles.
One set for shotguns.

For instance, in the rifle regs there's nothing about threaded barrels or magwell's outside the pistol grip. But in the handgun regs, those are both AW features.

curtisfong
10-27-2009, 4:20 PM
One set for handguns.
One set for rifles.
One set for shotguns.


I'm sorry, I'm dense :(

Please be patient with me!

You are saying that handgun regs apply to rimfire rifles, regardless of overall length, or stock style?

wash
10-27-2009, 4:32 PM
Nope, federal rifle laws apply, You can get a 26" OAL .22 and it's not an SBR unless the barrel is less than 16".

curtisfong
10-27-2009, 4:34 PM
Nope, federal rifle laws apply

So what you are saying is the ONLY CA regs that apply are magazine regs?

wash
10-27-2009, 4:39 PM
For rimfire rifles, yes.

ke6guj
10-27-2009, 4:39 PM
why is this so difficult?

For rimfire rifles, basically you only need to make sure you don't have an SBR. Pretty much anything else goes. If the firearm at any time had a shoulder stock, it is considered a rifle. As such, it must have a 16" barrel, and be at least 26" long. Any less and it is an SBR. Feds measure OAL with the stock extended, but CA measures OAL with the stock in its shortest fireable configuration.

There are no regulations on what magazines you use in a rimfire rifle. Magazine regulations deal with the magazine itself, not its usage in the rimfire rifle.

CHS
10-27-2009, 5:17 PM
You are saying that handgun regs apply to rimfire rifles, regardless of overall length, or stock style?

There are 3 kinds of firearms to which AW reg's apply:

Shotguns
Rifles
Handguns

For each kind of firearm there is a UNIQUE set of criteria that ONLY apply to that kind of firearm that will make it an AW.

The criteria for handguns applies to ALL handguns and ONLY handguns, and DOES NOT include rifles or shotguns. The criteria for handguns DOES NOT differentiate between rimfire HANDGUNS or centerfire HANDGUNS.

The criteria for rifles ONLY applies to centerfire rifles, and centerfire rifles ONLY and DOES NOT include handguns or shotguns. The criteria for rifles DOES NOT include rimfire rifles, they are EXEMPT.

The criteria for shotguns applies ONLY to shotguns and shotguns ONLY. The criteria for shotguns ONLY applies to SEMI-AUTOMATIC shotguns.

I have no idea why you think any handgun AW reg's would apply to or include rimfire rifles.

Gray Peterson
10-27-2009, 7:51 PM
Youre being overly sensitive, please lighten up.

No.

curtisfong
10-27-2009, 8:08 PM
Thanks bdsmchs and ke6guj. Sorry. Like I said, I'm dense, and find much of the law baffling :)

Also, I don't like making assumptions, so having you guys clarify it for me is very helpful. Sorry if my questioning was frustrating ...

wash
10-28-2009, 7:39 AM
What about me?

curtisfong
10-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Well. I hate you.

No. Just kidding. Didn't mean anything by omitting you :P

Thanks to wash too :)