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View Full Version : Riding my bicycle with a shotgun in SF


mofugly13
10-25-2009, 8:55 AM
I live really close to the Pacific Rod & Gun Club in San Francisco, and frequently ride my bicycle from my house near Golden Gate Park, to Lake Merced. I always stop at PRGC and watch the trap and skeet shooters for a while, and wish I could partake... Is there a legal way for me to transport my shotgun, perhap broken down in my backpack? I live in a school zone, and probably pass through a few on my way over there. Also, I usually ride along the Great Highway, which (I believe) is part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. Are there any issues with this?

bombadillo
10-25-2009, 9:08 AM
Wow, i'll let the law guru's chime in but it looks like you've pretty much got everything working against you on this one.

DRM6000
10-25-2009, 9:17 AM
you should be good to go with the broken down shotgun in a locked backpack.

xxdabroxx
10-25-2009, 9:23 AM
^ what he said. So long as its in a locked container you should be G2G. Sucks to carry around the shells though.

Sarkoon
10-25-2009, 10:15 AM
I thought only handguns and assault weapons had to be transported in locked containers. I believe you should be legal even openly exposed as long as it's unloaded. Oh, school zones. Forgot about those.

cadurand
10-25-2009, 10:18 AM
Maybe it would be legal to just strap your shotgunt to your back and jump on your motorcycle but wouldn't it actually be easier (and probably safer) to break it down and put it in a backpack or even better a saddle/tankbag?

Blackhawk556
10-25-2009, 10:29 AM
At first it sounds like you're playing with fire but I'm sure others will clarify this. You got huevos if you do it, just because its SF

Dr Rockso
10-25-2009, 10:46 AM
You could always get an old ratty guitar case from the goodwill store, buy a POS bicycle, and don't bathe for a couple of days. Nobody would think twice about the dirty hippie riding around San Francisco with a guitar on his back.

Like others have said, be discreet and make sure the container is locked.

GrizzlyGuy
10-25-2009, 11:11 AM
You need to place the shotgun in a locked container so as to comply with the Federal Gun-free School Zones Act:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law

You don't need to worry about having a suitable 12025 (concealed weapon) exemption since a shotgun is not a concealable weapon.

There may be local ordinances that effect this as well, I don't know about those.

sfwdiy
10-25-2009, 12:39 PM
You could always get an old ratty guitar case from the goodwill store, buy a POS bicycle, and don't bathe for a couple of days. Nobody would think twice about the dirty hippie riding around San Francisco with a guitar on his back.

Like others have said, be discreet and make sure the container is locked.

+1 on the guitar case. I transport all my long guns in guitar cases all the time. Perfect example: Cheap Fender Gig Bag (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Fender-Standard-Gig-Bag-for-Strat-Tele-100337942-i1152415.gc)

My neighbors all know I play music, so when I walk past them on a Saturday carrying an AK and a Mossberg they have no clue that I'm on my way to the range. I just say I'm going to band practice. :) I can ride the bus, walk down the street in broad daylight, etc. Just make sure you get a luggage lock to lock the zippers together if you're going to be transporting on a bike.

--B

gunsmith
10-25-2009, 1:38 PM
+1 on the guitar case. I transport all my long guns in guitar cases all the time. Perfect example: Cheap Fender Gig Bag (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Fender-Standard-Gig-Bag-for-Strat-Tele-100337942-i1152415.gc)

My neighbors all know I play music, so when I walk past them on a Saturday carrying an AK and a Mossberg they have no clue that I'm on my way to the range. I just say I'm going to band practice. :) I can ride the bus, walk down the street in broad daylight, etc. Just make sure you get a luggage lock to lock the zippers together if you're going to be transporting on a bike.

--B

I carried all the time in guitar cases, no problems

forgiven
10-25-2009, 2:06 PM
What about joining the club and storing it there.

SJgunguy24
10-25-2009, 2:16 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=233025 I think you should go and check out my thread about this very question.
You also need to think of the attitude of the SFPD and firearms.

mofugly13
10-25-2009, 4:34 PM
So it sounds like as long as I have the shotgun (at least the action) in a locked case I'm good to go, according to the law. If It is not readily identifiable as a firearm, even better.

GrizzlyGuy
10-25-2009, 6:47 PM
So it sounds like as long as I have the shotgun (at least the action) in a locked case I'm good to go, according to the law. If It is not readily identifiable as a firearm, even better.

As long as you don't go so far as inadvertently making a short-barreled shotgun. From PC 12020:

--------------
(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches
and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 18 inches in length.
--------------

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html

Personally, I'd carry it fully assembled in a locked case. That's definitely legal under state and federal law (YMMV on local law).

mofugly13
10-25-2009, 8:14 PM
As long as you don't go so far as inadvertently making a short-barreled shotgun. From PC 12020:

--------------
(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches
and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 18 inches in length.
--------------

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html

Personally, I'd carry it fully assembled in a locked case. That's definitely legal under state and federal law (YMMV on local law).


I don't see how a broken down shotgun can in any way be considered an SBS. With the barrel removed, it cannot fire a shell at all, as the chamber is part of the barrel itself.

GrizzlyGuy
10-25-2009, 9:40 PM
I don't see how a broken down shotgun can in any way be considered an SBS. With the barrel removed, it cannot fire a shell at all, as the chamber is part of the barrel itself.

No worries then, sounds like you're good to go! If you get hassled by the cops, don't forget about the magic 4th and 5th amendments. ;)

SJgunguy24
10-25-2009, 10:47 PM
No worries then, sounds like you're good to go! If you get hassled by the cops, don't forget about the magic 4th and 5th amendments. ;)

To the OP, you really should check out my thread in the LEO forum. I wouldn't bother with braking it down. They maybe considered concealing the gun.
And the magic 4th and 5th are helpful if your breaking the law as well. If you get stopped be truthful carry ID and you'll most likely be on your way. If you are hassled or arrested there is help for you.

mofugly13
10-26-2009, 6:21 AM
To the OP, you really should check out my thread in the LEO forum. I wouldn't bother with braking it down. They maybe considered concealing the gun.
And the magic 4th and 5th are helpful if your breaking the law as well. If you get stopped be truthful carry ID and you'll most likely be on your way. If you are hassled or arrested there is help for you.

I read the whole thread. I understand that LEO's may have a different attitiude about it, I want to make sure that I would be within the law to transport on my bicycle. There was a lot of good info in that thread, thanks.

gunn
10-26-2009, 6:29 AM
I don't see how a broken down shotgun can in any way be considered an SBS. With the barrel removed, it cannot fire a shell at all, as the chamber is part of the barrel itself.

It depends on how you break it down.
Most people would consider just pulling the barrel off (esp if its a pump.)

However, I believe the previous posted wanted to make sure that the OP does not pull off the buttstock to make it fit in the carrying case. In that situation, it could be a "SBS" since it could fire while shortened. IMO, that seems like a much bigger pain in the butt though.
-g

paul0660
10-26-2009, 6:50 AM
SFPD cops are usually quite friendly one on one. I would ask one, before carrying the shotgun around. Explain it's for target practice, describe the location, etc, and your idea for breaking it down.

mofugly13
10-26-2009, 7:06 AM
SFPD cops are usually quite friendly one on one. I would ask one, before carrying the shotgun around. Explain it's for target practice, describe the location, etc, and your idea for breaking it down.

I have found this to be absolutely true. The only times I have ever been hassled by SFPD was (in my younger years) when I was doing something wrong, and even then I got a lot of leeway. For all the crap I've heard talked about SF, the cops have always been very fair with me during the few interactions I've had with them.

xxdabroxx
10-26-2009, 8:26 AM
To the OP, you really should check out my thread in the LEO forum. I wouldn't bother with braking it down. They maybe considered concealing the gun.
And the magic 4th and 5th are helpful if your breaking the law as well. If you get stopped be truthful carry ID and you'll most likely be on your way. If you are hassled or arrested there is help for you.

A shotgun is not a concealable firearm.

It depends on how you break it down.
Most people would consider just pulling the barrel off (esp if its a pump.)

However, I believe the previous posted wanted to make sure that the OP does not pull off the buttstock to make it fit in the carrying case. In that situation, it could be a "SBS" since it could fire while shortened. IMO, that seems like a much bigger pain in the butt though.
-g

A SBS has to do with the barrel length. He is not shortening the barrel, only breaking down the shotgun. Not a SBS.

tombinghamthegreat
10-26-2009, 8:41 AM
A shotgun is not a concealable firearm.


to go further legally he could hide a shotgun or any other long gun under your coat since it would not violate the PC12025.

To the OP, if it is in a soft case container, gym bag ect with a cheap lock to put the gun/ammo you are good to go as far as school zones go. If school zones were a non issue then you could just conceal it with out the lock. Don't waste your time to break it down.

tiki
10-26-2009, 9:27 AM
Isn't there some law that makes it illegal to carry a firearm in a guitar case or in a case designed to hide the fact that you are carrying a firearm?
Not sure, but thought I read that somewhere.

mofugly13
10-26-2009, 9:28 AM
Don't waste your time to break it down.


There isn't a problem with it broken down, right? It's not really a waste of time, it's an Ithaca 37 and takes about 30 seconds to break down, if I take my time. I'd be transporting it in a backpack, so, broken down would be much more convenient.

cmth
10-26-2009, 9:36 AM
I am not giving legal advice, only my personal opinion. The federal GFSZ is unconstitutional. U.S. v. Lopez made it clear that carrying a gun is not a commercial act nor does it affect interstate commerce, therefore Congress has no authority to regulate it on state property and within a state. So the revised law is still unconstitutional, and I believe the consensus was that nobody has been convicted of the revised law. I personally would not concern myself with the federal law, but I would follow the state law. The state law doesn't apply to long guns, so you should be fine carrying the broken down weapon in a backpack, no lock necessary. Besides, why would a cop ever see your concealed long gun? Concealed means concealed. Only if you allowed them to search your pack would they know about it. You are not breaking the law concealing a long gun anyway. Always refuse any searches. If they search you anyway without probable cause that you are committing a crime, then no worries. Fruit of the poisonous tree and such. If you really wanted to be bold, just strap the shotgun on your back and go for a ride. The cops could perform a 12031(e) check but that is all. Not recommended, but legal all the same. Again this is not legal advice, just my personal opinion and how I would conduct myself in this situation. You do whatever you feel is right.

Decoligny
10-26-2009, 9:42 AM
To the OP, you really should check out my thread in the LEO forum. I wouldn't bother with braking it down. They maybe considered concealing the gun. And the magic 4th and 5th are helpful if your breaking the law as well. If you get stopped be truthful carry ID and you'll most likely be on your way. If you are hassled or arrested there is help for you.

Since California Penal Code has a specific definition of a "concealable firearm", and a shotgun does NOT fall into the category of "concealable firearm" then Penal Code 12025 DOES NOT apply. You could legally walk down the street with an unloaded shotgun hung from a sling hanging under your arm covered by a trenchcoat, and you woul NOT be carrying a "concealed firearm".

Decoligny
10-26-2009, 9:47 AM
Isn't there some law that makes it illegal to carry a firearm in a guitar case or in a case designed to hide the fact that you are carrying a firearm?
Not sure, but thought I read that somewhere.

Another misread of what the Penal Code actually spells out quite clearly. If you rig up the guitar case with an external trigger so the shotgun can be fired from within the guitar case, then it would be illegal.

PC 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

...

(9) As used in this section, a "camouflaging firearm container" means a container which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It is designed and intended to enclose a firearm.
(B) It is designed and intended to allow the firing of the enclosed firearm by external controls while the firearm is in the container.
(C) It is not readily recognizable as containing a firearm.
"Camouflaging firearm container" does not include any camouflaging covering used while engaged in lawful hunting or while going to or returning from a lawful hunting expedition.

chiefcrash
10-26-2009, 11:05 AM
can someone throw up the picture of Wes on his scooter? I think it's obligatory for this thread, and I'm too busy to track it down at the moment...

SJgunguy24
10-26-2009, 11:26 AM
Since California Penal Code has a specific definition of a "concealable firearm", and a shotgun does NOT fall into the category of "concealable firearm" then Penal Code 12025 DOES NOT apply. You could legally walk down the street with an unloaded shotgun hung from a sling hanging under your arm covered by a trenchcoat, and you woul NOT be carrying a "concealed firearm".

I know the law, but in the same light a LEO might run you in for doing something perfectly legal. Like open carrying a shotgun to the range. That is why I said don't bother with breaking the shotgun down. You can explain till your blue in the face, if the cop ain't buying it your going down. And they'll hear from the lawyers.

locosway
10-26-2009, 11:55 AM
I know the law, but in the same light a LEO might run you in for doing something perfectly legal. Like open carrying a shotgun to the range. That is why I said don't bother with breaking the shotgun down. You can explain till your blue in the face, if the cop ain't buying it your going down. And they'll hear from the lawyers.

Cops don't need to know the law. In fact, they're exempt from knowing the law. All they need to know is that you're acting suspicious "to them", and that they "feel" you may be breaking a (some) law.

It's silly, really... Guilty until innocent anymore.

tiki
10-26-2009, 12:37 PM
Another misread of what the Penal Code actually spells out quite clearly. If you rig up the guitar case with an external trigger so the shotgun can be fired from within the guitar case, then it would be illegal.


Cool. Thanks for the clarification. I knew I read something somewhere about it but I wasn't sure.

ColdDeadHands1
10-26-2009, 6:44 PM
The answer is simple since you live in San Fransicko... Dress up like a filthy gang banging punk illegal alien, get hammered drunk, and drive to the range in a stolen and unregistered car and don't bring your drivers license or insurance card. When the SFPD pull you over, simply say "no habla ingles". They'll apologize for pulling you over and bothering you and then send you on your way.

mecam
10-26-2009, 8:31 PM
The answer is simple since you live in San Fransicko... Dress up like a filthy gang banging punk illegal alien, get hammered drunk, and drive to the range in a stolen and unregistered car and don't bring your drivers license or insurance card. When the SFPD pull you over, simply say "no habla ingles". They'll apologize for pulling you over and bothering you and then send you on your way.

Nailed it right there. :D

bigcalidave
10-26-2009, 9:18 PM
can someone throw up the picture of Wes on his scooter? I think it's obligatory for this thread, and I'm too busy to track it down at the moment...


I don't know why...

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/elrojo14/guns/jk1.jpg



uggghhhhhh

Mulay El Raisuli
10-27-2009, 6:16 AM
Another misread of what the Penal Code actually spells out quite clearly. If you rig up the guitar case with an external trigger so the shotgun can be fired from within the guitar case, then it would be illegal.

PC 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

...

(9) As used in this section, a "camouflaging firearm container" means a container which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It is designed and intended to enclose a firearm.
(B) It is designed and intended to allow the firing of the enclosed firearm by external controls while the firearm is in the container.
(C) It is not readily recognizable as containing a firearm.
"Camouflaging firearm container" does not include any camouflaging covering used while engaged in lawful hunting or while going to or returning from a lawful hunting expedition.


WHEW! Happy to know that I was and am legal while doing this.

The Raisuli