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Write Winger
10-24-2009, 3:02 PM
My father in law, who lived in Nevada, owned a Taurus Judge. He passed away a couple months ago, and because he had no will, it is now the property of my wife (and technically her brother too). She is a California resident.

What is the legality of owning this gun in California? Our knowledge of interfamily transfer laws, unsafe guns, etc, is limited (and yes, I have tried reading through this forum). Can she own it? If so, or if not, what does she need to do to remain a law abiding citizen of The People'z Republik of Kalifornia?

tyrist
10-24-2009, 3:04 PM
She can own it but not inside the state of California.

nrakid88
10-24-2009, 3:04 PM
im pretty sure that handgun cant be had in california. It may be an assault pistol or something. I know revolving shotguns are a no no here.

joelberg
10-24-2009, 3:09 PM
It's considered an SBS in CA.

Fjold
10-24-2009, 3:10 PM
California classes the Judge as a short barreled shotgun.

dantodd
10-24-2009, 3:23 PM
The story about the judge is not so simple. I have heard that it is considered an SBS but I've also heard stories about gun stores in CA selling it (only to LE because it is not rostered.)

As a bequest it is not subject to the roster so that is no problem. What you have to worry about if it is considered an SBS.

00BuckShot
10-24-2009, 3:29 PM
I know of several stores that sell the Judge as an LEO only sale in California. I won't name names but some very reputable dealers. I assume that it is not considered a SBS for this purpose.

bwiese
10-24-2009, 3:38 PM
Regardless of its Roster status (which is irrelevant in inheritance/bequest estate matters) the Taurus Judge is a no-no gun in CA since it can chamber shotgun shells.

Your wife can take possession of it outside California and (must) leave it outside CA. Since this is an estate/bequest situation (i.e, the result of owner actually dying) neither a CA nor NV FFL is needed for transfer.

For normal handguns, Rostering status does not matter for inheritance/bequest, operation of law, etc. - just like intrafamily transfers.

jamesob
10-24-2009, 3:50 PM
what if it was disassembled? or if they make a diffeent cylinder?

FS00008
10-24-2009, 4:09 PM
Doesn't it have a smoothbore...? That's what leads to teh SBS classification right?

Quiet
10-24-2009, 4:20 PM
Doesn't it have a smoothbore...? That's what leads to teh SBS classification right?

Taurus Judge has a rifled barrel.

But, CA law defines it as a SBS because it can use shotgun shells.


Penal Code 12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 12001
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

Plisk
10-24-2009, 4:26 PM
12276.1.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

I believe this applies to it as well, on top of the SBS ruling.

Maestro Pistolero
10-24-2009, 4:27 PM
I wonder if incorporation will eventually force standardization of this BS so you don't need a law degree to figure out if the average citizen is a felon or not.

ke6guj
10-24-2009, 4:39 PM
12276.1.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

I believe this applies to it as well, on top of the SBS ruling.Well, a Judge isn't a shotgun (defined as a shoulder-fired firearm), so it wouldn't be an AW.

But, as mentioned above, it is an SBS.

dantodd
10-24-2009, 4:56 PM
Well, a Judge isn't a shotgun (defined as a shoulder-fired firearm), so it wouldn't be an AW.

But, as mentioned above, it is an SBS.

Is there a place in CPC that defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon? I couldn't find it in an admittedly brief search.

ke6guj
10-24-2009, 5:02 PM
Is there a place in CPC that defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon? I couldn't find it in an admittedly brief search.

12020(c)(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the triggerthis is the only place I see it defined. So, I'm told, even though that the definition says "as used in this section", unless there is another definition elsewhere in the PC, that this definition would be applied across the entire firearms PC title.

Seesm
10-24-2009, 5:48 PM
Calguns get it legal in California somehow... I WANT ONE!!

dantodd
10-24-2009, 7:02 PM
this is the only place I see it defined. So, I'm told, even though that the definition says "as used in this section", unless there is another definition elsewhere in the PC, that this definition would be applied across the entire firearms PC title.

Thanks, I was sure it was there just didn't know where to find it.

Sounds like this needs to be taken care of. No better test case than a bequest...

I wonder how FFLs are managing to sell them to roster exempt buyers.

kcbrown
10-24-2009, 7:09 PM
I wonder if incorporation will eventually force standardization of this BS so you don't need a law degree to figure out if the average citizen is a felon or not.

You don't need a law degree to figure out if the average citizen is a felon or not. With the laws on the books these days, I'd say there's no question that the average citizen today is a felon! The only question is whether or not said citizen has been arrested.

:mad:

Librarian
10-24-2009, 7:59 PM
Thanks, I was sure it was there just didn't know where to find it.

Sounds like this needs to be taken care of. No better test case than a bequest...

I wonder how FFLs are managing to sell them to roster exempt buyers.

Except that Quiet already posted Penal Code 12001
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

Just forget about the Judge for a few years; leave it out of state in a safe deposit box or with a trusted friend or family member.

Since the Judge is not a Roster issue, I cannot imagine how any FFL is selling them in CA to anyone.

Write Winger
10-24-2009, 8:36 PM
Thanks everyone for your info, opinions, and comments. It's currently still in probate in Nevada, so we'll take the appropriate precautions.

Just on a side note, I find it reprehensible the quantity of words, pages, regulations, loopholes, etc that make up Kalifornia gun laws, as well as any other industry here. It's just mindblowing when I read the Constitution, and I see how simple and straight forward it is.

ke6guj
10-24-2009, 8:45 PM
Since the Judge is not a Roster issue, I cannot imagine how any FFL is selling them in CA to anyone.hopefully the lawyers backing up that FFL are as good as they have been mentioned to be.

Not only is the FFL breaking the law, but the owner's of the Judges have non-permitted CA SBSs. But since most of them are probably LEOs, they may get lucky and have the brass pass protect them (unless they run into a SoCal version of Iggy).

ontargetrange
10-24-2009, 8:53 PM
Having gone directly to the DOJ and ATF about these "pistols" I know what "their" current rulling is : They are a Short Barreled Shotgun that can ONLY be purchase by the Department or with letterhead stating that the Officer can have it, but only on loan from the Department they work for -- even LE's have a few limits -- so unless you are an LE with a letter signed by the Chief of that Department you may not have one EVEN if you are LE -- the DOJ person I discussed this with stated they are reviewing all Judges for the reason stated -- nothing but corrective action on paperwork from the Departments -- so no one is going to jail. Unlike us who don't get to make a mistake on paperwork.

bwiese
10-24-2009, 9:15 PM
Having gone directly to the DOJ and ATF about these "pistols" I know what "their" current rulling is : They are a Short Barreled Shotgun that can ONLY be purchase by the Department or with letterhead stating that the Officer can have it, but only on loan from the Department they work for -- even LE's have a few limits -- so unless you are an LE with a letter signed by the Chief of that Department you may not have one EVEN if you are LE -- the DOJ person I discussed this with stated they are reviewing all Judges for the reason stated -- nothing but corrective action on paperwork from the Departments -- so no one is going to jail. Unlike us who don't get to make a mistake on paperwork.

BATF is irrelevant. Taurus Judges are legal for regular sale in approx. 49 states and are not SBSes there.

While an SBS under CA law, Taurus Judges may also be CA generic AWs i- "any shotgun with a revolving cylinder".

The DOJ sounds like it's doing cleanup like they did with the Evan's Gunsmithing + Iggy Chinn listed AW screwup.

Sounds like someone at the DOJ didn't realize this and gave permission, confusing non-Rostered w/SBS status.

"Corrective action" will be interesting since I'm betting these guns are cop property and most likely not departmental guns.

Thanks for the info. We have to PRAR the sh*t outta this - this can help a lotta folks.

bwiese
10-24-2009, 9:21 PM
E
Since the Judge is not a Roster issue, I cannot imagine how
any FFL is selling them in CA to anyone.

I'm betting because some cop told them they were Roster exempt.

And they assumed that was the only issue, because they believed cops know the law.

dantodd
10-24-2009, 10:45 PM
Is there a place in CPC that defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon? I couldn't find it in an admittedly brief search.
Except that Quiet already postedPenal Code 12001
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the posted excerpt to my question.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-25-2009, 12:06 AM
I'm not sure of the relevance of the posted excerpt to my question.

I believe he posted that in response to your statement...

...Sounds like this needs to be taken care of. No better test case than a bequest...

Were you saying that there should be a test case to see if the Taurus Judge is really considered a SBS under California law?

Librarian
10-25-2009, 10:34 AM
I'm not sure of the relevance of the posted excerpt to my question.

In 15 you posted Is there a place in CPC that defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon? I couldn't find it in an admittedly brief search. and then you later posted your 'test case' comment.

Since this is a thread about the Judge, I inferred you may believe that a pistol could not be a shotgun. Someone else provided the general definition of shotgun, and I repeated the 12001 language Quiet posted showing that, despite not being a shoulder weapon, a handgun could be a short barreled shotgun.

ke6guj
10-25-2009, 11:51 AM
Since this is a thread about the Judge, I inferred you may believe that a pistol could not be a shotgun. Someone else provided the general definition of shotgun, and I repeated the 12001 language Quiet posted showing that, despite not being a shoulder weapon, a handgun could be a short barreled shotgun.

Yes, even though a Judge may not be a shotgun, it can be considered a short-barreld shotgun. Per federal law, only shotguns can be short-barreded shotguns, but CA law provides for something to be a short-barreled shotgun without actually being a shotgun.

dantodd
10-25-2009, 3:07 PM
In 15 you posted and then you later posted your 'test case' comment.

Since this is a thread about the Judge, I inferred you may believe that a pistol could not be a shotgun. Someone else provided the general definition of shotgun, and I repeated the 12001 language Quiet posted showing that, despite not being a shoulder weapon, a handgun could be a short barreled shotgun.

Got ya. I see how it could have been so interpreted. Sorry for the poor choice of wording.

Cali-V
10-29-2009, 1:23 PM
So please enlighten me, I'm confused...

Depending on how the state defines "designed or redesigned" and "fixed shotgun shell", Owners of 8mm, 9mm, and 22LR handguns may be in possession of SBS's?

I'm lead in this direction because, there are/were many shotguns manufactured to accept the above shells, and the shells more than likely, can be chambered in like caliber handguns...

Take a look at the 9mm Flobert, it sure looks like it'll chamber in my Glock17,(the 9mm luger is 1.169 long)... If so, the 9mm Luger and Flobert have a close correlation to the 45LC and the .410... Could my 9mm Glock be a SBS???

http://www.ammo-one.com/9mmRimfireShotshellFiocchi.jpg

Decoligny
10-29-2009, 1:33 PM
So please enlighten me, I'm confused...

Depending on how the state defines "designed or redesigned" and "fixed shotgun shell", Owners of 8mm, 9mm, and 22LR handguns may be in possession of SBS's?

I'm lead in this direction because, there are/were many shotguns manufactured to accept the above shells, and the shells more than likely, can be chambered in like caliber handguns...

Take a look at the 9mm Flobert, it sure looks like it'll chamber in my Glock17,(the 9mm luger is 1.169 long)... If so, the 9mm Luger and Flobert have a close correlation to the 45LC and the .410... Could my 9mm Glock be a SBS???

http://www.ammo-one.com/9mmRimfireShotshellFiocchi.jpg

While all of the above listed ammunition is indeed "shot shells" they are not shotgun shells. A shot shell is a shell that contains shot that is designed to be fired from a pistol or a rifle. A shotgun shell is a shell that contains shot and it is specifically designed to be fired from a shotgun.

You probably won't find any .22lr shotguns on the market. You probably won't find any 9mm shotguns on the market.

Cali-V
10-29-2009, 1:48 PM
While all of the above listed ammunition is indeed "shot shells" they are not shotgun shells. A shot shell is a shell that contains shot that is designed to be fired from a pistol or a rifle. A shotgun shell is a shell that contains shot and it is specifically designed to be fired from a shotgun.

You probably won't find any .22lr shotguns on the market. You probably won't find any 9mm shotguns on the market.

Here you go...

9mm Flobert Shotgun (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144568348)
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/144568000/144568348/pix1063606062.jpg

I'm just curious weather or not the 9mm Flobert will chamber in a 9mm Luger, and if so what are the ramifications, relating to CA's definition of a SBS....

Decoligny
10-29-2009, 2:04 PM
Here you go...

9mm Flobert Shotgun (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144568348)
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/144568000/144568348/pix1063606062.jpg

I'm just curious weather or not the 9mm Flobert will chamber in a 9mm Luger, and if so what are the ramifications, relating to CA's definition of a SBS....

Seeing as the 9mm Flobert is a rimfire shotgun, then even if a 9mm Luger would chamber, it would not fire. And upon closer examination of the photos of the 9mm Flobert ammunition, it appears to be longer (9mm X 33mm) than a standard 9mm Luger pistol round (9mm X 19mm). I doubt that it would fit into the magazine.

Cali-V
10-29-2009, 2:17 PM
yeah with a closer look the Flobert is about .1875" too long... It probably won't chamber without mods... No SBS there...

CHS
10-29-2009, 2:50 PM
yeah with a closer look the Flobert is about .1875" too long... It probably won't chamber without mods... No SBS there...

It looks like it will chamber just fine, since it's a stepped cartridge.

However, Decoligny hit the nail on the head. Flobert is a rimfire cartridge, and 9mm luger is a centerfire :)

No amount of pulling the trigger is going to set off a flobert in a 9mm chamber.

Cali-V
10-29-2009, 3:04 PM
Yeah in "designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell"...
I guess fire is kinda key...

ponderosa
10-29-2009, 3:38 PM
...but CA law provides for something to be a short-barreled shotgun without actually being a shotgun.

hahahahaha. lovely.

dantodd
10-29-2009, 7:04 PM
There are shot shells available in several calibers. We used to carry .38 or .22 snake shot all the time when hunting in Alabama, the damn snakes were dangerous.

The gun may be able to fire shot shells but they weren't designed to fire shotgun shells.