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View Full Version : Detroit: One 43 y.o. Female CCW'er vs Two BGs -- Care to Guess Who Wins?


Paladin
10-23-2009, 7:31 PM
Another example of a life being protected because of "Shall Issue" CCW (I now have 21 examples of this.)

Another example of handguns being "equalizers": a woman is able to prevail against a man; one person is able to prevail against two; and here, one woman is able to prevail against two men.

Another example of why "Shall Issue" is my #1 public policy priority.

Again, there is NO MENTION of this woman having what our urban CLEOs would consider "good cause" prior to this incident. :rolleyes:

http://www.examiner.com/x-19336-Detroit-Crime-Examiner~y2009m9d27-Detroit-woman-shoots-at-two-would-be-robbers-killing-one

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID19336/images/gas_station.jpg

Detroit woman shoots at two would be robbers, killing one
September 27, 12:32 PM
Detroit Crime Examiner
Robert Brignall

At about 5:30 AM Friday morning, a 43 year old woman was pumping gas at a Schoolcraft and Southfield Mobile station on Detroit's northwest side, when two men approached her. They were after her purse, and she must have looked to them like an easy mark. She wasn't.

What neither men could have known was that the woman had a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and was packing heat. While the men did grab her purse, one was struck by a number of bullets from the Detroit woman's gun. "They didn't realize she has a CCW (permit), so she had a weapon of her own," said police spokesman John Roach. "She fired several rounds at the suspects and they fled."

Police have released no names thusfar. Detroit Free Press, 9/26/09.

Only half an hour after the shooting, Two men presented at Harper Grace Hospital, one suffering from multiple gunshot wounds. He died soon after. Roach said "We believe (the dead man) is one of the individuals in the robbery." They should, since the shooter's purse was recovered, most likely at the hospital. Police believe the man who brought him to the hospital was the dead man's accomplice.

This is all the information I can gather at this point. However, anyone who witnessed the shooting is encouraged to call the Detroit Police Homicide unit at (313) 596-2260.

mecam
10-23-2009, 7:55 PM
nice. :thumbsup:

CalNRA
10-23-2009, 8:40 PM
good for her.

Looks like Michigan is ahead of women's rights then California by a long shot.

sephy
10-23-2009, 8:43 PM
Excellent. Too much scum out there preying on people they suspect are defenseless.

Electricboy
10-23-2009, 8:56 PM
good for her

Fjold
10-23-2009, 8:59 PM
She's batting .500, not bad.

SickofSoCal
10-23-2009, 9:08 PM
good for her.

Looks like Michigan is ahead of women's rights then California by a long shot.

LMFAO!

That's creative!

FS00008
10-23-2009, 9:56 PM
She needs a more effective CCW Gun. Sounds like she was using something small if it didn't make him DRT.

Turo
10-23-2009, 10:00 PM
Awesome!

woodey
10-23-2009, 10:04 PM
Nice job:D

Kid Stanislaus
10-23-2009, 10:34 PM
She needs a more effective CCW Gun. Sounds like she was using something small if it didn't make him DRT.

On the one hand you cannot argue with sucess, but on the other hand ya just can't be comfortable with a self defense weapon that is not strong enough to put'm down and keep'm down right on the spot. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances, like the amount of meth the guy had surging thru his veins. All the more reason to pack heat with considerable WHALLOP.

dantodd
10-23-2009, 11:02 PM
On the one hand you cannot argue with sucess, but on the other hand ya just can't be comfortable with a self defense weapon that is not strong enough to put'm down and keep'm down right on the spot. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances, like the amount of meth the guy had surging thru his veins. All the more reason to pack heat with considerable WHALLOP.

Carry a gun you're comfortable with. If you're afraid of the recoil from a .45 it's better to carry a 9mm than a gun you're afraid of.

WarEagle
10-23-2009, 11:08 PM
Good for her.

xLusi0n
10-23-2009, 11:10 PM
This is all the information I can gather at this point. However, anyone who witnessed the shooting is encouraged to call the Detroit Police Homicide unit at (313) 596-2260.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why call the police? So long as they aren't charging her, why provide more information to the police that could only be used to scrutinize what I consider a clean shoot.

dantodd
10-23-2009, 11:13 PM
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why call the police? So long as they aren't charging her, why provide more information to the police that could only be used to scrutinize what I consider a clean shoot.

I think they are trying to find witnesses to determine if the guy who brought in dead guy is the accomplice.

Warhawk014
10-24-2009, 12:16 AM
i like her already

Mulay El Raisuli
10-24-2009, 7:40 AM
She needs a more effective CCW Gun. Sounds like she was using something small if it didn't make him DRT.


Whatever she had met the first rule of a gunfight & worked well enough that the BGs did leave once the shooting started. That's not too bad, is it?

BTW, what's "DRT" mean?

The Raisuli

Dirtbozz
10-24-2009, 8:14 AM
Whatever she had met the first rule of a gunfight & worked well enough that the BGs did leave once the shooting started. That's not too bad, is it?

BTW, what's "DRT" mean?

The Raisuli

Why not spell out all of the words so that we all know what you are saying? Not everyone who reads these threads know what those God-awful acronyms stand for. :26:

M. Sage
10-24-2009, 8:18 AM
DRT = Dead right there.

No handgun you want to carry night and day is going to be a certain DRT gun. Handguns are for breaking contact (getting people to leave you alone), if you want them dead you need a rifle or shotgun.

There's an entire acronym thread around here somewhere...

Dirtbozz
10-24-2009, 8:39 AM
DRT = Dead right there.

There's an entire acronym thread around here somewhere...

A pointless waste of time and should not be necessary.

sammy
10-24-2009, 9:41 AM
Good job!! I assume the surviving perp is going stand trial for his buddy's dirt nap? Lets hope so, good riddance!!

dasmi
10-24-2009, 9:43 AM
Damn fine work.

BigDogatPlay
10-24-2009, 9:49 AM
An inner city contrarian from "Day-twaaah" might try to make the point that if the woman hadn't been so outwardly flashing her wealth (the car in the linked photo looks like a Jaguar to me) then she might not have attracted the attention of her victims and nothing would have happened. She caused it because she was flouting her wealth in the inner city, and hence she made herself a target for the instant re-distribution of her wealth.

I wouldn't say that... but some scummy apologist might.

I say... good shoot and well played.

vrand
10-24-2009, 10:29 AM
A .22 will drop someone if it hits just the right place, and a 44mag might not drop someone if it's not in the right place. Plus, she's shooting at a moving target under stress. She did damn well in my book.

:thumbsup:

SarcoBlaster
10-24-2009, 10:51 AM
Good riddance. Too bad the other ******* didn't buy the farm as well.

snobord99
10-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Good job!! I assume the surviving perp is going stand trial for his buddy's dirt nap? Lets hope so, good riddance!!

I'd say probably not. I don't know if this applies in Michigan, but in most jurisdictions a felon can't be guilty of murder if the person that died is a co-felon who was shot by the police or a victim defending themselves.

mquejr
10-24-2009, 11:31 AM
perp - 0
would-be-victim - 1

i wonder if i'll still be around to see "shall-issue" ccw?

jaymz
10-24-2009, 11:38 AM
Why not spell out all of the words so that we all know what you are saying? Not everyone who reads these threads know what those God-awful acronyms stand for. :26:

For the same reason pretty much nobody uses their real identity as a screen name - because "they" are watching, and we need to make sure that "they" don't know who we are, or what we are saying.
:TFH:

Colt-45
10-24-2009, 11:46 AM
good for her.

Looks like Michigan is ahead of women's rights then California by a long shot.

jaja that's a great way of putting it lol.:D

Paladin
10-24-2009, 12:06 PM
I'd say probably not. I don't know if this applies in Michigan, but in most jurisdictions a felon can't be guilty of murder if the person that died is a co-felon who was shot by the police or a victim defending themselves.Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

For a 2008 case of someone being charged in CA w/felony murder because the person they were street racing against lost control of his car, crashed into another car (w/a family in it), and died, see: http://www.articlesbase.com/personal-injury-articles/man-sentenced-in-el-monte-california-street-racing-car-accident-695206.html
"He was charged with one felony count of murder with the special allegation of causing great bodily injury, one felony count of vehicular manslaughter and four counts of felony reckless driving causing injury, as well as misdemeanor street racing."

Be sure to pass that along to anyone you know who likes racing on the streets. Tell them to sign up for a track day instead.

Remember this the next time you're tempted to race/harass someone who's driving like a jerk.

M. Sage
10-24-2009, 12:15 PM
I'd say probably not. I don't know if this applies in Michigan, but in most jurisdictions a felon can't be guilty of murder if the person that died is a co-felon who was shot by the police or a victim defending themselves.

You'd be incorrect. The felony murder rule absolutely applies in this situation.

snobord99
10-24-2009, 2:37 PM
Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

For a 2008 case of someone being charged in CA w/felony murder because the person they were street racing against lost control of his car, crashed into another car (w/a family in it), and died, see: http://www.articlesbase.com/personal-injury-articles/man-sentenced-in-el-monte-california-street-racing-car-accident-695206.html
"He was charged with one felony count of murder with the special allegation of causing great bodily injury, one felony count of vehicular manslaughter and four counts of felony reckless driving causing injury, as well as misdemeanor street racing."

Be sure to pass that along to anyone you know who likes racing on the streets. Tell them to sign up for a track day instead.

Remember this the next time you're tempted to race/harass someone who's driving like a jerk.

You'd be incorrect. The felony murder rule absolutely applies in this situation.

Sorry, you're both wrong. Where the killed is a co-felon and the killer is a victim or LEO (this fact pattern is important), there is no felony murder in most jurisdictions. This is an exception to the felony murder rule. See People v. Washington, 62 Cal. 2d 777 (1965) (where CA Supremes first recognized the exception). Again, I know it applies in most jurisdictions but have no idea if it applies in Michigan.

Edit: Actually, Sage, you might be right if you're in TX. I have no idea if the exception is recognized there ;).

gunsmith
10-24-2009, 2:47 PM
I hope the dead guy has learned his lesson and will now be a nice guy

GaryV
10-24-2009, 4:39 PM
Sorry, you're both wrong. Where the killed is a co-felon and the killer is a victim or LEO (this fact pattern is important), there is no felony murder in most jurisdictions. This is an exception to the felony murder rule. See People v. Washington, 62 Cal. 2d 777 (1965) (where CA Supremes first recognized the exception). Again, I know it applies in most jurisdictions but have no idea if it applies in Michigan.

Edit: Actually, Sage, you might be right if you're in TX. I have no idea if the exception is recognized there ;).

You're correct - felony murder would apply in some jurisdictions and not in others. Looking through Michigan laws it appears that felony murder would not apply in this case. Michigan makes felony murder a mandatory life sentence, but appears to require that the criminal actively commit the crime of murder during the commission of a qualifying felony, not simply that someone die as a result of the underlying felony.

Seesm
10-24-2009, 6:55 PM
I do not care WHAT she looks like she is HOT in my book...

Good shooting lady!!

I less BG in the world. (THE way it SHOULD be)

Paladin
10-24-2009, 8:38 PM
Sorry, you're both wrong. Where the killed is a co-felon and the killer is a victim or LEO (this fact pattern is important), there is no felony murder in most jurisdictions. This is an exception to the felony murder rule. See People v. Washington, 62 Cal. 2d 777 (1965) (where CA Supremes first recognized the exception). Again, I know it applies in most jurisdictions but have no idea if it applies in Michigan.Oh yeah, the old Redline exception. Forgot about that. I'll refund my fee. :p

a1c
10-24-2009, 9:25 PM
What you're thinking about for CA is actually not exactly felony murder, although it's related. It's called the Provocative Act doctrine, a form of transferred intent.

I know personally a DA who used this law to charge and prosecute a case but he failed to get a conviction on that count.

Truth is, it is rarely charged in CA (I think you can count on the finger of two hands the number of cases where it was charged, and probably on one the number of cases that went to trial and where there was a conviction on that count), because most juries have a tough time buying it. Most DAs won't take that chance and will stick with less exotic charges.

snobord99
10-24-2009, 11:09 PM
What you're thinking about for CA is actually not exactly felony murder, although it's related. It's called the Provocative Act doctrine, a form of transferred intent.

I know personally a DA who used this law to charge and prosecute a case but he failed to get a conviction on that count.

Truth is, it is rarely charged in CA (I think you can count on the finger of two hands the number of cases where it was charged, and probably on one the number of cases that went to trial and where there was a conviction on that count), because most juries have a tough time buying it. Most DAs won't take that chance and will stick with less exotic charges.

Not exactly. What I'm talking about is an exception to both felony murder and the Provocative Act Doctrine (PAD). Under this specific fact pattern (co-felon killed by intended victim or LEO), the charge won't even reach the jury since they can't be legally guilty. PAD applies if the person killed was an innocent bystander whereas here, the person killed is a co-felon.

What you're talking about under PAD is that they're not likely to be found to be factually guilty but there's still a law under which they can be prosecuted. In the case of the co-felon, even if you could find a jury to say "yea, they should be guilty" they can't be convicted because no "legal" murder occurred.

In other words, it's neither felony murder nor PAD, it's an exception/exclusion to both.

a1c
10-24-2009, 11:23 PM
Not exactly. What I'm talking about is an exception to both felony murder and the Provocative Act Doctrine (PAD). Under this specific fact pattern (co-felon killed by intended victim or LEO), the charge won't even reach the jury since they can't be legally guilty. PAD applies if the person killed was an innocent bystander whereas here, the person killed is a co-felon.

No. PAD can apply to a "co-felon." I can cite two recent CA cases where PAD was used to charge someone with the murder of their accomplice: Chad O'Connell and Renato Hughes.

Meplat
10-25-2009, 9:57 AM
If a .22 is what you got it's what you use. A .22 will take the mind of most perps off what they wanted to do to you and on where the nearest emergency room is located.:43:

A .22 will drop someone if it hits just the right place, and a 44mag might not drop someone if it's not in the right place. Plus, she's shooting at a moving target under stress. She did damn well in my book.

snobord99
10-25-2009, 12:22 PM
No. PAD can apply to a "co-felon." I can cite two recent CA cases where PAD was used to charge someone with the murder of their accomplice: Chad O'Connell and Renato Hughes.

I think you're right. I was under the impression that CA was amongst the majority jurisdictions where the exception was applicable. Apparently, CA's one of the few jurisdictions where it isn't.

Funny thing is the CA Supreme Court case that established PAD in CA came out less than 7 months after the same court said that this doesn't qualify for felony murder.

Learn something new every day. Thanks!

a1c
10-25-2009, 12:37 PM
I think you're right. I was under the impression that CA was amongst the majority jurisdictions where the exception was applicable. Apparently, CA's one of the few jurisdictions where it isn't.

Funny thing is the CA Supreme Court case that established PAD in CA came out less than 7 months after the same court said that this doesn't qualify for felony murder.

Learn something new every day. Thanks!

Check out Maryland too. They have a somewhat similar statute, but I really don't know much about it.

bruceflinch
10-25-2009, 5:53 PM
I love these stories w/ a Happy Ending! :)

devildog999
10-25-2009, 8:11 PM
Good for her

DougJ
10-25-2009, 8:58 PM
She did great, obviously.

Whatever her weapon of choice was it did exactly what is was designed to do, she still standing and the bad guys caused her no harm. The fact that one of them will never cause anyone any harm again is a pretty nice bonus.

Mulay El Raisuli
10-26-2009, 6:20 AM
Why not spell out all of the words so that we all know what you are saying? Not everyone who reads these threads know what those God-awful acronyms stand for. :26:


You mean I shouldn't have used an acronym while asking what another acronym means?

Fair enough, I guess. "BTW" is short for "by the way."

In my defense "BTW" is a pretty standard internet abbreviation. But, I'll try to be better about this.

The Raisuli

Capt. Speirs
10-26-2009, 4:37 PM
Saved tax payer court cost on one at least.