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nicki
10-23-2009, 3:39 PM
Our opponents like to pull out that we should restrict guns because of suicide, yet many of them support assisted suicide:rolleyes:

Several years ago Time magazine ran a whole magazine on people who got killed during one week throughout the US and they put pictures how the person was killed.

I noticed half the people in the magazine who died from gunshots were suicides. What I noticed about the sucides is close to half the people were old people and comments were that the person had "medical problems".

For the rest of the suicides, we probably could say that the problem isn't access to guns, rather it is lack of access to competent mental health care.

After all, we are compassionate on this forum:D

By making Suicide a "gun issue" , the Brady Campaign is diverting the attention of the American people away from needed reform of the mental health system to promote their agenda.

The Brady Campaign has blood on their hands.

Nicki

Ding126
10-23-2009, 3:41 PM
I concur

Turo
10-23-2009, 3:55 PM
I like it. I hate when the antis make that stupid argument. "Well, if he didn't have access to the gun, he wouldn't have killed himself." Well, yeah, he couldn't POSSIBLY have done it any other way. It's not like people regularly keep knives in their kitchens, enough drugs in their medicine cabinets to knock down a horse, or any kind of lawn care tools in their garage... :rolleyes:

ugh.

Decoligny
10-23-2009, 3:59 PM
I like it. I hate when the antis make that stupid argument. "Well, if he didn't have access to the gun, he wouldn't have killed himself." Well, yeah, he couldn't POSSIBLY have done it any other way. It's not like people regularly keep knives in their kitchens, enough drugs in their medicine cabinets to knock down a horse, or any kind of lawn care tools in their garage... :rolleyes:

ugh.

And it's not like they can't find a high building anywhere to jump off.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/_suicide640.jpg

foxtrotuniformlima
10-23-2009, 4:02 PM
The reason they play the suicide card is that was the tactic that worked in Austrailia.

sephy
10-23-2009, 4:05 PM
I think the people pushing this campaign would make the best statement by killing themselves with guns.

GrizzlyGuy
10-23-2009, 4:35 PM
A bit dated, but these refute a lot of the FUD regarding guns and suicide:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=117&issue=023

bodger
10-23-2009, 4:37 PM
I think the people pushing this campaign would make the best statement by killing themselves with guns.


Maybe some of the pending legal cases will go our way and a lot of these antis will get depressed. Really depressed.

yellowfin
10-23-2009, 5:15 PM
One of the Bradys actually did off himself recently.


As for countries with low gun ownership and high suicide incidence, one need look no farther than India and Japan.

bodger
10-23-2009, 5:20 PM
One of the Bradys actually did off himself recently.


As for countries with low gun ownership and high suicide incidence, one need look no farther than India and Japan.


Did he use a gun?

India and Japan. They're depressed because of their horribly constraining gun laws and then they commit Harry Carey. See what happens when gun control gets out of control? :43:

AndrewMendez
10-23-2009, 5:21 PM
Generally people that kill themselves have had a long history with some type of abuse, neglect, drug use, and the like. I don't think mental health care for everyone is the problem! There are almost always signs before someone kills or attempts to kill themselves, and rarely a suicide note!

JDoe
10-23-2009, 5:26 PM
Did he use a gun?

Here you go, courtesy of Pvt. Cowboy!

Brady Campaign lawyer commits suicide with firearm (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179425)

freakshow10mm
10-23-2009, 5:32 PM
I have no problem with people that commit suicide. Only those that hurt someone else before they kill themselves.

bodger
10-23-2009, 5:33 PM
Here you go, courtesy of Pvt. Cowboy!

Brady Campaign lawyer commits suicide with firearm (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179425)


Wow.

radioman
10-23-2009, 6:35 PM
To be or not to be, man has been asking him self that for a very long time, and why not? I shoot insulin two times a day, some day I could lose a leg, or my kidneys could out, I was blind for over a year, that was a drag. It may get a point I don't want to go on, I won't use a gun, that's to messy. I take a pill for this and a pill for that, I have more damm pills then I know what to do with. But, I still put up a fight to live no matter how bad it gets, for my wife and kids, so to understand why someone commits suicide is to understand life.

yellowfin
10-23-2009, 6:52 PM
My wife is a psychologist and deals with suicidality often. She's got a heart of gold, I'll tell ya that much.

forgiven
10-23-2009, 7:15 PM
And it's not like they can't find a high building anywhere to jump off.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/_suicide640.jpg

:eek: Impressive picture.

dantodd
10-23-2009, 9:35 PM
Here you go, courtesy of Pvt. Cowboy!

Brady Campaign lawyer commits suicide with firearm (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179425)

Missed that one. I wonder if D.C. fined the body for having an unregistered firearm in a place of business within the District..... (or is it a place of employment... :D )

Kid Stanislaus
10-23-2009, 10:58 PM
I went to Oroville today and visited my mother in a "rest home". Many of those people there are pathetic remnants of their former selves. I reserve the right to blow my brains out before spending my last years in a warehouse of the demented.

sephy
10-23-2009, 11:07 PM
One of my nursing instructors summed it up like this -- some people are willing to give up their quality of life just to live, while others aren't. She said for herself, if she is sitting on a vent with a trach and requires round the clock meds, it's time to just turn the vent off. I think I'd agree.

dantodd
10-23-2009, 11:12 PM
She said for herself, if she is sitting on a vent with a trach and requires round the clock meds, it's time to just turn the vent off. I think I'd agree.

Make sure it's in writing. Deciding when to terminate the life of a loved one is an incredibly painful experience and only more so when those making the decision can't agree.

Carnivore
10-24-2009, 12:31 AM
Canada claimed that suicides declined by 22% when they instituted there gun licensing policy. What they forgot to mention that over all suicides went up 10% an hangings went up 33%. I guess they meant gun suicides went down 22%.....funny how the anti's use numbers to make their argument look better with out worrying about accuracy.

nicki
10-24-2009, 5:08 AM
The reason I made this post was to get you guys thinkng.

The Antis throw out all the suicides with guns, but what they don't look at is the suicide issue itself.

I honestly don't blame people for ending it all if they have a terminal illness, I personally have NO FEAR OF DEATH.

What I do fear is SUFFERING and BEING A BURDEN on my kids.

Many people do have emotional issues and we have a societal stigma against seeking mental health because no one wants to be labled "nuts".

Of course if government policies weren't causing so much stess in people's lives, if people did not have to contribute over half their income in taxes, we just might have less economic stress in people's lives.

If government wasn't there to put cold water on people's dream, they might actually have hope, have purpose in their lives.

People who have purpose for their lives don't end their lives.

See, this is a argument we always hear from the VD proponents and it is one that we could turn around and stuff it in their face if we went on offense.

Right now they use emotional arguments, we use logic and acts. Human beings repsond 24 X more to emotional arguements vs logical.

This is why we clobber our opponents on the facts and still lose the debate.

Nicki

Mulay El Raisuli
10-24-2009, 7:01 AM
As it happens, Harvard has published a study on this.

Titled, "Would Banning guns reduce murder and suicide?" by Don B. Kates & Gary Mauser.

I'm having a little trouble finding where it can be d/l'd again, but it was up on the Harvard Law School website. A search there with the title, or the authors names, should get it for anyone wanting it.

The Raisuli

B Strong
10-24-2009, 7:27 AM
The reason they play the suicide card is that was the tactic that worked in Austrailia.

Bingo!

They're all about their "tactics" and talking points.

Ever spoken with one face to face? When asked a question not included within their talking points, they'll either change the subject and divert, or answer a question not asked and throw in a question of their own to further derail the conversation.

dizzy
10-24-2009, 8:05 AM
Don't forget suicide by train. I heard of at least four in Palo Alto by commuter train in six months. It must be an extremely traumatic experience for the train engineer and conductors to go through.

JDoe
10-24-2009, 8:21 AM
As it happens, Harvard has published a study on this.

Titled, "Would Banning guns reduce murder and suicide?" by Don B. Kates & Gary Mauser.

I'm having a little trouble finding where it can be d/l'd again, but it was up on the Harvard Law School website. A search there with the title, or the authors names, should get it for anyone wanting it.

Here you go...

Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence (http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7212&context=expresso)

Gary A. Mauser, Simon Fraser University
Don B. Kates, retired

Here is the Abstract (http://law.bepress.com/expresso/eps/1564/) for those who want it...

Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence

Gary A. Mauser, Simon Fraser University
Don B. Kates, retired

Abstract

The world abounds in instruments with which people can kill each other. Is the widespread availability of one of these instruments, firearms, a crucial determinant of the incidence of murder? Or do patterns of murder and/or violent crime reflect basic socio-economic and/or cultural factors to which the mere availability of one particular form of weaponry is irrelevant?

This article examines a broad range of international data that bear on two distinct but interrelated questions: first, whether widespread firearm access is an important contributing factor in murder and/or suicide, and second, whether the introduction of laws that restrict general access to firearms has been successful in reducing violent crime, homicide or suicide. Our conclusion from the available data is that suicide, murder and violent crime rates are determined by basic social, economic and/or cultural factors with the availability of any particular one of the world’s myriad deadly instrument being irrelevant.

Mulay El Raisuli
10-25-2009, 5:33 AM
JDoe, you are a gentleman & a scholar. That's the one.

The Raisuli

Meplat
10-25-2009, 3:36 PM
Depends on who they hurt.:43:

I have no problem with people that commit suicide. Only those that hurt someone else before they kill themselves.

Meplat
10-25-2009, 3:42 PM
You are right, If you use enough gun to be sure it's way too messy for the family. The right drugs, CO-2, or opening a large artery are a few of the better ways that are easily available.


To be or not to be, man has been asking him self that for a very long time, and why not? I shoot insulin two times a day, some day I could lose a leg, or my kidneys could out, I was blind for over a year, that was a drag. It may get a point I don't want to go on, I won' t use a gun, that's to messy. I take a pill for this and a pill for that, I have more damm pills then I know what to do with. But, I still put up a fight to live no matter how bad it gets, for my wife and kids, so to understand why someone commits suicide is to understand life.

D_fens
10-25-2009, 4:01 PM
Don't forget suicide by train. I heard of at least four in Palo Alto by commuter train in six months. It must be an extremely traumatic experience for the train engineer and conductors to go through.

+1 to this. I'm from Palo Alto (I spent most of Elementary school, and all of Middle/ High School there, and graduated not too long ago) Although all of the suicides that I know of were committed by entering/ current high school students (IE minors), it does show that guns are by far not the only way to commit suicide...
And so, if you "take away" firearms there are many many other means for a determined person.

Again restating what Bodger mentioned, there are many highly "restrictive" (in the firearms sense) countries that have much higher suicide rates than the United States. See: http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/index.html
IMHO, it's largely a social-type thing. Very little to do with the availability of guns... Man this feels like a negative post :(

Meplat
10-25-2009, 4:01 PM
I'm a christian but if you don't own your own life what do you own. So, I concur. I do not have any great medical problems at this time but I have no intention of ever seeing the inside of a rest home. At a certain point a man only has two obligations left. To leave his best possible legacy for his family and to die well.:43:



I went to Oroville today and visited my mother in a "rest home". Many of those people there are pathetic remnants of their former selves. I reserve the right to blow my brains out before spending my last years in a warehouse of the demented.

bwiese
10-25-2009, 4:02 PM
We lost a good Calgunner last year (Parag). He was a great & good friend who decided not to stick around. Many of you going to the Bay Area ShootNQs may remember him as the friendly samosas supplier who liked to visit with gunnies as much as shoot.

I knew for some time Parag had a bit of the 'blues' but did not know extent or depth of his depression until aftermath (in his will). I knew he took some meds but that had seemed to be more of a "mood enhancer" and "motivator" to deal with work situations and trivialities he'd prefer to avoid.

Parag generally had the luxury of controlling his life, leading a well-structured life and avoiding situations that caused stress (wait for parking, long lines, etc.). His impatience for BS would lead him to take alternate courses (i.e, prefer work as a contractor, not an employee, hop around to interesting gigs). I suspect when he wrecked his car in Utah and had to wait 4 hours in the rain he just got P.O's and said "what's the point" - wet and tired, and no cell service in the hills.

I know Parag, a freedom advocate nonpareil, would hate for his exit to be used as a motivating factor for gun control. Maybe it could be used for improved cellphone coverage.


... if you don't own your own life what do you own. So, I concur. I do not have any great medical
problems at this time but I have no intention of ever seeing the inside of a rest home. At a certain point a man
only has two obligations left. To leave his best possible legacy for his family and to die well.:43:

Brudda, I concur.

I have no desire to live in a convalescent home, hospice, etc. either. Institutionalization is jail without bars/guards.

If I can't make it around by myself - perhaps with some occasional home help for housekeeping - then it's time for me to say the Big Goodbye. If I can't see or hear or think well, or it takes me 4 hours on the john, and if I don't have a certain comfort (i.e., don't wanna be bedridden, do wanna get out of the house) then I don't wanna be around - I'll make room for the next guy.

I don't wanna burden others or the gov't with my care and I'd rather my remaining assets go to NRA, family, care of my cats so they don't go to shelter, etc. - with my guns going to my friends & family or gunrights benefit sale. Render me unto fertilizer, hold a big BBQ at a gun range telling "Bill jokes" between shooting periods - and serve lotsa roast beef and use it as a fundraiser for NRA, CGF, etc.

Meplat
10-25-2009, 4:21 PM
I honestly don't blame people for ending it all if they have a terminal illness, I personally have NO FEAR OF DEATH.

What I do fear is SUFFERING and BEING A BURDEN on my kids.

Nicki

You realize that when you admit to no fear of death you become a very dangerous person to the powers that be?

To me God is love and a loving god does not
require unneeded and unproductive suffering. My god will not condemn those who jumped from the twin towers rather than burn to death. Your god may very.

bwiese
10-25-2009, 4:33 PM
You realize that when you admit to no fear
of death you become a very dangerous person to the powers that be?


Yup.

The most dangerous organization in the world would be a unified-but-unorganized group of the terminally ill working for freedom - nothing to lose, everything to gain for others.

trashman
10-25-2009, 4:57 PM
Ever spoken with one face to face? When asked a question not included within their talking points, they'll either change the subject and divert, or answer a question not asked and throw in a question of their own to further derail the conversation.

Exactamundo. The real reason that suicides are incorporated into the "deaths by gun" statistic/argument is that without it the measured number of deaths by gun is 60% lower.

In order to maintain the false urgency of the moral panic the anti-gunnies have to incorporate the suicide numbers.

I read another study somewhere that also analyzes the demographics of suicide deaths -- and (while I can't put my hand on it right this second) guess what the overwhelming suicide-by-gun demographic is? White adult men.

The real shocker to most casual anti-gunnies is the number of accidental child deaths. While utterly deplorable those deaths are a fraction of what most folks think it is. (for 2002 the number of accidental gun deaths through age 19 was 167 according to the National Safety Council via the 2006 World Almanac).

--Neill

The Director
10-25-2009, 5:15 PM
You guys are bringing me down, man!:(

Meplat
10-25-2009, 5:22 PM
Sorry, talk to me about kids under 12. After that they know they are dealing with a deadly weapon and they understand the finality of death.


Exactamundo. The real reason that suicides are incorporated into the "deaths by gun" statistic/argument is that without it the measured number of deaths by gun is 60% lower.

In order to maintain the false urgency of the moral panic the anti-gunnies have to incorporate the suicide numbers.

I read another study somewhere that also analyzes the demographics of suicide deaths -- and (while I can't put my hand on it right this second) guess what the overwhelming suicide-by-gun demographic is? White adult men.

The real shocker to most casual anti-gunnies is the number of accidental child deaths. While utterly deplorable those deaths are a fraction of what most folks think it is. (for 2002 the number of accidental gun deaths through age 19 was 167 according to the National Safety Council via the 2006 World Almanac).

--Neill

virulosity
10-25-2009, 5:24 PM
I think the prudent thing for these anti-gun suicide groups to do is to drink the kool-aid and show the world how to do it the right way (kidding). I saw on the news the other day that there are bunch of train tracks suicides near a california high school. Does that mean we should ban trains, or should we figure out what makes life crappy for high school students? Maybe health class should involve more than just learning about how dangerous alcohol and having sex is? What do I know though? Im not a parent or a politician so disregard everthing I just said. :eek:

radioman
10-25-2009, 5:24 PM
Life is a blast, good food, good wine, good friends, and good loving, but what do you do when the good is over? when hamlet asked. to be or not to be, it was out pain in his mind, when I lost my vision, I could feel and hear, smell and the wine was still good, I was down to 120 lb's, and I knew death was on it's way. But for me it was not time to go, I knew that one day I would see, I can't do a lot of things I like to do, me wife won't let me near a bike and I don't drive a car as hard as I did, but you find life, you find why you want to live, me I like to smell the roses and hear the birds, and to see the kids in love for the first time. and to all of us, may you live as long you want, and not want as long you live.

Meplat
10-25-2009, 5:27 PM
Life sucks, then you die.:)

You guys are bringing me down, man!:(

Meplat
10-25-2009, 5:32 PM
WOW. that was lame after Radio's last post.:o

Life sucks, then you die.:)

trashman
10-25-2009, 5:33 PM
Sorry, talk to me about kids under 12. After that they know they are dealing with a deadly weapon and they understand the finality of death.

I generally agree - however was just making the point that it's an incredibly small number relative to things like deaths-by-accidental-poisonings and most anti-gunnies don't know it.

(In fact the accidental deaths under 12 is like ... 7 or something for year 2002.)

--Neill

Meplat
10-25-2009, 5:37 PM
I was just reacting to the fact that HCI tends to call gangbangers in their 20's "children" to pump their numbers.

I generally agree - however was just making the point that it's an incredibly small number relative to things like deaths-by-accidental-poisonings and most anti-gunnies don't know it.

(In fact the accidental deaths under 12 is like ... 7 or something for year 2002.)

--Neill

bruceflinch
10-25-2009, 6:09 PM
I don't want to be a burden on my family & friends. So, should I get to an overripe old age & can't even wipe myself, then I will check out. I'll confer to The Hemlock Society & take a course the least hard on my Survivors. I have lived a life full of adventure, sailing, scuba diving, motorcyles, Skydiving, drugs, sex, Rock N Roll & guns, lots of guns. I could never use any of these experiences to end my life. ( well maybe drugs..)

With some luck & continued good living, You can read my Obit in about 45 years! :D

Super Spy
10-25-2009, 6:47 PM
I'd be happy to provide impartial counseling to any Brady advocate who's feeling poorly about themselves. The bath tub is a great place to spend your final moments, make sure you leave a window open, leave a note saying how much your life sucks because your an anti, and how bad it feels that the gun lobby keeps kicking your ***........

Decoligny
10-26-2009, 3:47 PM
Did he use a gun?

India and Japan. They're depressed because of their horribly constraining gun laws and then they commit Harry Carey. See what happens when gun control gets out of control? :43:

Harry Carey
http://www.peoplequiz.com/images/bios/harry_caray.jpg-1575.jpg

Hara Kiri
http://www.bujinninpokan.com/Textos/imagenes/seppuku_2.jpg

bodger
10-26-2009, 7:51 PM
Harry Carey
http://www.peoplequiz.com/images/bios/harry_caray.jpg-1575.jpg

Hara Kiri
http://www.bujinninpokan.com/Textos/imagenes/seppuku_2.jpg


Harry Carey Junior:
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt10/dingoff/harrycareyjr.jpg




LOL! Thanks for clearing that up.

I did know Hara Kiri and Harry Carey aren't the same. But thanks for the lesson just the same.
:D:D

Seesm
10-26-2009, 7:55 PM
IF I EVER decide to OFF myself I will do it with a "SPORK" so the anti can not use me as a example.... :)

cbn620
10-28-2009, 3:24 PM
I come from a long line of depression and anxiety and have dealt with it all my life. It's not something I like to talk about especially since I own guns, but yeah--let's just say been there, done that. The issue really is mental health care here, not guns. Neither political party wants to address it.

I think gun control in general is a symptom of our society's inability to address complex social issues head on. I think mental health care is one such issue. We could deal with mental health issues, we could end this delay, deny mentality in our approach to those who are mentally ill. But no, we would instead prefer to just ban the crap out of everything we could so much as remotely associate with the problem, and hope it goes away. In the end all it does is bury us in more problems.

For rhetoric's sake, it is an oft-repeated adage that the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again while expecting different results. The war on alcohol, the war on drugs, the war on guns, the war on terror... When is our society going to get it? When is it going to click?

Aldemar
10-28-2009, 3:38 PM
IF I EVER decide to OFF myself I will do it with a "SPORK" so the anti can not use me as a example.... :)

Me, I'm going to drive over a cliff on my bike. Have a little rush before I go and my life insurance will pay off because it won't look like a suicide