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Greg Beck
03-04-2005, 12:02 PM
I read in the state fish and game laws that it is legal for a fisherman to carry a concealed weapon while fishing. Is this true? I was surf fishing and got surrounded by a group of toughs. They were leading me into fear with their comments. I pulled the gaff out and they backed off.

eviioiive
03-04-2005, 3:09 PM
if you read it from an official source. id say print it and keep it with you if you plan to carry

LongBch_SigP226
03-04-2005, 8:49 PM
Originally posted by maxter:
I read in the state fish and game laws that it is legal for a fisherman to carry a concealed weapon while fishing. Is this true? I was surf fishing and got surrounded by a group of toughs. They were leading me into fear with their comments. I pulled the gaff out and they backed off.

Where exactly does it say that? Having hunting or fishing license will allow you lawful possession and transportation of the firearm, nothing in the law states that you can carry concealed weapon while fishing.

Download this file and start reading from page 32. (Its under Concealed Weapon section so you might have got confused. Read it once more carefully. (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf)

C.G.
03-04-2005, 9:49 PM
If a fisherman is on his boat, which is his place of business, he may have a concealed weapon on the boat.

03-04-2005, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by maxter:
I was surf fishing and got surrounded by a group of toughs. They were leading me into fear with their comments.

Just curious, where did this happen?

Greg Beck
03-05-2005, 8:06 AM
I was fishing just north of crystal pier at pacific beach. One punk was telling me how he bonked a fisherman with a rock. I reeled in and was waving a 8 ounce sinker with three # o/2 hooks in his face. Then I pulled my little gaff. Sure wish I owned a Aussie Blue Heeler. My friend Vikki will walk anytime, anywhere with that little dog. Even Bruce Lee would have trouble with Sydney.

Librarian
03-05-2005, 10:31 AM
Hi, Ding,

Here's the law:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
...
12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
...
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition. and here's what the summary you reference says Penal Code Section 12025 does not apply to or affect the lawful transportation or possession of a firearm under specific circumstances, including, but not limited to, the following:
...
• Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from such hunting or fishing expeditions.

The LAW includes the word "carrying"; the SUMMARY somehow omits that word.

And case law? I have no idea. Might be real, might be swamp gas. And the law doesn't actually say 'carry concealed' is OK, though since that's what 12025 is about it's a reasonable inference - to a lay person. To a court? I sure don't want to commit to that without competent legal advice.

Mark in Eureka
03-05-2005, 12:27 PM
As long as you are in an area that would allow you to discharge that firearm, you can carry concealed and loaded while fishing.

Remember: there are two laws. One restricts where and under what conditions you can carry a weapon. The other one restricts where a firearm can be loaded. Basicly it says a weapon, without a permit of some kind, can only be loaded where it would be legal to discharge it.

Greg Beck
03-05-2005, 12:32 PM
I went to library and found same section. I don't think I will test the law on a crowded public beach. Maybe in a wild area it would be ok. Guess I will get a bigger gaff hook. Kind of a vague law that open for clarification. Maybe there is a lawyer that can clear this up.

Mark in Eureka
03-05-2005, 12:36 PM
I think the relevent sections of the Penal Code are around 120025 and 120035. The concealed carry license is a PC 120050.

03-05-2005, 5:57 PM
Forget all the speculation and PC being quoted here, Maxter.
DON'T go packing down in P.B. - you will likely get arrested for doing so (if found out) as it is well within the city limits.

Turbinator
03-06-2005, 2:41 PM
Originally posted by maxter:
I pulled the gaff out and they backed off.

For those of us who don't fish, could someone clarify what a "gaff" is - is that slang for a firearm, or is it actually something else fishing related?

Turby

fastmanusa
03-06-2005, 2:46 PM
A friend of mine got hit over the head while fishing with a Razor scooter. As he suffers from brain damage today I am sure if he could do it all over again he would of rather packed and took the risk of getting caught. But, its your call.

Mark in Eureka
03-06-2005, 6:34 PM
A "gaff" is a hook that you can pull your fish in when you get it to the river bank.

Greg Beck
03-07-2005, 7:19 AM
The law is not about shooting legally. Law states that a licensed fisherman or hunter who legally owns a firearm may carry unloaded and concealed weapons and may carry a concealed and loaded weapons when engaged in. This means any time, any where, or does it. I think you might get into a lot of trouble on a crowded public area on a sunny day. If my favorite fishing spot is a gang hangout and I'm fishing at 1am on a dark night its probably ok. This law is so a person who is burdened with gear and focused on their expedition may defend against dangers either animal or human.

03-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by maxter:
If my favorite fishing spot is a gang hangout and I'm fishing at 1am on a dark night its probably ok. This law is so a person who is burdened with gear and focused on their expedition may defend against dangers either animal or human.

If this is the case, you might want to fish somewhere else. Not that I think we the law-abiding should bend over and relent to the desires of criminals, but it might be the prudent thing to do.

If you feel that your life is in immediate danger, I believe that you can carry concealed and loaded and technically be in accordance with CA law regardless of your status as a fisherman. You might have a hard time defending this in court though, if it's determined that you willing continued to return to a place where you knew and had experience with it's dangerousness. I'm not saying that it would be fair, but I'd bet money that it would become an issue for you if the unspeakable occurred.

Use your own judgment.

imported_Skammy
03-12-2005, 1:24 AM
Originally posted by Librarian:
Hi, Ding,

Here's the law:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
...
12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
...
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition. and here's what the summary you reference says Penal Code Section 12025 does not apply to or affect the lawful transportation or possession of a firearm under specific circumstances, including, but not limited to, the following:
...
• Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from such hunting or fishing expeditions.

The LAW includes the word "carrying"; the SUMMARY somehow omits that word.

And case law? I have no idea. Might be real, might be swamp gas. And the law doesn't actually say 'carry concealed' is OK, though since that's what 12025 is about it's a reasonable inference - to a lay person. To a court? I sure don't want to commit to that without competent legal advice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post, I think another thing to point out that is very important is how it says "fishing expedition"

Dictionary definition :
1 a : a journey or excursion undertaken for a specific purpose b : the group of persons making such a journey

Greg Beck
03-12-2005, 7:33 AM
Next week I will call the DFG and see what they think. Also, I would like a judicial rendering of this law. The law states that you may carry loaded when engaged in the expedition, so, when does the expedition begin? Also, what does unloaded mean under law? It sounds like you carry concealed, unloaded, and can load up as soon as leave your transport and begin. Does unloaded mean rounds in your pocket or must they be locked up in your trunk until you become engaged? Archers are hunters too.

delloro
03-13-2005, 8:43 AM
"'We note that when the Legislature has determined to limit the exemption of section 12027 to a person while such person is acting in the course of a certain duty, it has done so. Thus, subdivision (a) of section 12027 provides that a person summoned by any peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace is exempt "while he is actually engaged in assisting such officer." Likewise, subdivision (c) exempts members of the armed forces "when on duty." Subdivision (e) exempts certain guards and messengers "while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bouillon, bonds, or other thing of value within this state." Likewise, subdivisions (f), (g) and (h) exempt members of shooting clubs, licensed hunters or fishermen, and members of antique gun clubs during the period they are engaged in such activities." (78 Ops.Cal.Atty.Gen. 209 (1995)[citing 63 Ops.Cal.Atty.Gen. 385 (1980)].)

One published case cited the section, but it was dicta, as it was a search and seizure case, and the defendant had given consent. Bear in mind that the above opinion is not really on point, and AG opinions are not binding on courts, though they are persuasive.

P.C. section 12027(g) was added in 1953, and amended in 1996. I did not check for citations before 1953.

DFG doesn't care about this - the AG does. They are the ones to call and ask.


Basura Blanca, you said: "...DON'T go packing down in P.B. - you will likely get arrested for doing so (if found out) as it is well within the city limits."

What does city limits have to do with this?

03-13-2005, 1:45 PM
Originally posted by delloro:
Basura Blanca, you said: "...DON'T go packing down in P.B. - you will likely get arrested for doing so (if found out) as it is well within the city limits."

<span class="ev_code_RED">What does city limits have to do with this?</span>

Not much, rather, not as much as the probability that even if you were within your lawful rights to do so (that is, "pack" while engaged in a fishing "expedition") you'd still more than likely be arrested if caught. It may be legal, but does anyone really want to test the law in this case? I wouldn't. My advice is like that of many others here; err on the side of caution. I personally couldn't care less if someone packed (without ill-intention of course) a handgun into a school or federal building or wherever else the ultimate taboo of doing so would exist. I personally don't see that anything beyond the 2nd amendment is needed to do so (carry a concealed weapon). In fact, absent the 2nd, I still don't believe that a "permit" or otherwise is necessary to "bear arms". That's preaching to the choir here, but it's not what I usually advocate on this forum to be taken as advice. As was pointed out here before (for different reasons) we are becoming, if not already become, a very "*********" society.

Since it was also pointed out that the law is vague on the issue of concealed carry or just plain "open" carry (as quoted above in pc 12025 & 12027) for fisherman, I'd say that open carry in that particular area (Pacific Beach) would most definitely attract unwanted attention at the very least.

If you're familiar with Pacific Beach and it surroundings, this should be obvious.

delloro
03-13-2005, 10:24 PM
gotcha. I agree that getting arrested sucks, especially if you are a law-abiding citizen.

and yes, open carry is an invitation to disaster.

Greg Beck
03-14-2005, 7:03 AM
I mentioned 12027 to a gunsmith and he said don't do it, unless you want to charged with a felony. He knows three trappers who have been issued limited concealed carry license's by the sheriff's dept.

Greg Beck
03-14-2005, 7:21 AM
A bow hunter cannot carry any firearm while hunting. That sucks if you are hunting dangerous game. They ought to change this dfg regulation for safteys sake. A 600 pound bear or hog will eat you.

delloro
03-14-2005, 8:08 AM
Originally posted by maxter:
...a gunsmith ... knows three trappers who have been issued limited concealed carry license's by the sheriff's dept.

I wonder how well that would go over, asking for a ltd CCW while surf fishing? The police would probably tell me "but you don't need one, you have 12027" and then the cop arresting me would say "why didn't you just get a ltd CCW?"

delloro
05-01-2005, 8:43 PM
Just ran across PC 12031. no concealed carry exception in city limits or where discharge of weapons is prohibited.

I would bet a lot that discharge of firearms is prohibited on public beaches, esp. in So. Cal.

just an FYI

jester
05-20-2005, 3:59 PM
Just curious, I'm going on a fishing expedition up in Bridgeport(eastern sierra) in 2 weeks. Would this apply to this? There ARE bears in the campgrounds up there. While a 9mm wouldn't do much except piss-off all but a small bear, couldn't I keep a 9mm in my (locked?) tackle box while in the act of fishing?

05-21-2005, 6:16 PM
Originally posted by jester:
Just curious, I'm going on a fishing expedition up in Bridgeport(eastern sierra) in 2 weeks. Would this apply to this?

Considering the location, the question really is, who would know anyhow?

There ARE bears in the campgrounds up there. While a 9mm wouldn't do much except piss-off all but a small bear, couldn't I keep a 9mm in my (locked?) tackle box while in the act of fishing?

Every bear I've ever seen in the Sierras and elsewhere has been merely a blur in my periphery save for a handful of incidents when I was very young -and those were in "established" campgrounds.
IOW, short of actually trying to get a bear to become interested in you to the point that they will for some reason attack, would be a challenge IMO.

jester
06-10-2005, 4:00 PM
Took it anyway. Had a great time. There WERE bears, evidence & hearsay anyway but no sightings. Caught a LOT of trout.
Just felt better having my BHP in the ol tackle box.

06-11-2005, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by jester:
Took it anyway. Had a great time. There WERE bears, evidence & hearsay anyway but no sightings. Caught a LOT of trout.
Just felt better having my BHP in the ol tackle box.

Well, I do suppose that 9mm would be a suitable round if a rogue Rainbow went for your throat as you pulled it from the water.
I think you made the right choice.
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MAVERICK
06-13-2005, 4:31 PM
12025 says that you cannot do the following!!

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:
(1) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.
(2) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.
(3) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
(commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

BUT YOU MAY DO...12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.
(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a
licensed common carrier or an authorized agent or employee thereof
when transported in conformance with applicable federal law.

But if it is within city limits and the city has a law preventing then you will be arrested for
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

MAVERICK
06-13-2005, 4:42 PM
You can carry conclealed while fishing in the sierras or a local stream or lake, that is not in a city that prohibitea carring a loaded waepon. I have carried many time open and concealed and have been approached by F&G and local cops. never have had a problem. It is ture that alot of LEO see a private citizen carring a side arm and think you are up to no good. You can be arrested, this does not mean you will be convicted. Carrying at the local pier is most likely a no, but while surf fishing outside side city limits is ok.

06-13-2005, 5:59 PM
Originally posted by MAVERICK:
You can carry conclealed while fishing in the sierras or a local stream or lake, that is not in a city that prohibitea carring a loaded waepon.

...or a National Park which is where a large part of the "Sierras" are located.


I have carried many time open and concealed and have been approached by F&G and local cops. never have had a problem. It is ture that alot of LEO see a private citizen carring a side arm and think you are up to no good. You can be arrested, this does not mean you will be convicted. Carrying at the local pier is most likely a no, but while surf fishing outside side city limits is ok.

Where is there a surfishing spot on the California coast that is not within the city limits though?
Serious question, no flame intended.

MAVERICK
06-13-2005, 6:32 PM
Originally posted by Basura Blanca:


...or a National Park which is where a large part of the "Sierras" are located.



[QUOTE]
Where is there a surfishing spot on the California coast that is not within the city limits though?
Serious question, no flame intended.

Can you even fish in a National Park? Most of the fishing is in the National Forest! witch you can carry.

I don't surf fish but i bet there is plenty up the 101.

06-13-2005, 8:40 PM
Originally posted by MAVERICK:

Can you even fish in a National Park? Most of the fishing is in the National Forest! witch you can carry.

Come to think of it, I can't recall. I was thinking of the Golden Trout Wilderness in the So. Sierras, but that may actually lie outside of Sequoia NP.
I'd have to check for sure now that you bring that up.