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tx77057
10-23-2009, 9:55 AM
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maschronic
10-23-2009, 9:57 AM
i think black powder guns do not require FFL. i could be wrong though. im sure someone will chime in with the correct answer.

halifax
10-23-2009, 10:00 AM
If they can be converted to rimfire or centerfire easily (simple cylinder replacement), they will require an FFL. Can't point to the code, but I'm pretty sure it exists.

freakshow10mm
10-23-2009, 10:04 AM
The antique rule applies to blackpowder firearms and replicas thereof.

Guns like the TC Encore/Contender muzzle loaders are readily convertible so they are "4473 guns" meaning an FFL is required even or the muzzle loaders.

CFR 478.11 contains definitions.
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Here's more code from the ATF FAQ:

(A3) Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA?

No.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (16), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.141(d)]

The GCA as amended deals with the BG checks, FFLs, interstate transfer, etc. The ATF does not recognize black powder firearms as firearms and does not regulate them. This is why the definition of rifle, shotgun, and handguns all contain the phrase "fixed ammunition" ie a cartridge or shell.

Dr Pete
10-23-2009, 10:22 AM
Read the above 3 times, slowly.

Black powder replica 1851 handgun.
Was told Cash & carry. Is it because it's pre 1898?
FFL,Yes or NO?

Thank you

ke6guj
10-23-2009, 10:58 AM
If they can be converted to rimfire or centerfire easily (simple cylinder replacement), they will require an FFL. Can't point to the code, but I'm pretty sure it exists.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that.

I thought that someone could buy a new Uberti 1858 blackpowder revolver (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=722781)cash-and-carry, no DROS required. Then, they could buy the conversion cylinder (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=990984)cash-and-carry as well.

ke6guj
10-23-2009, 11:04 AM
Read the above 3 times, slowly.

Black powder replica 1851 handgun.
Was told Cash & carry. Is it because it's pre 1898?
FFL,Yes or NO?

Thank you

you can buy a replica handgun that does not use fixed ammo without using an FFL.

12001(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

Title 18
921(a)(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
If it is considered an antique firearm, then it is exempt from needing to be transfered through an FFL for both federal and CA law.

freakshow10mm
10-23-2009, 11:47 AM
Read the above 3 times, slowly.

Black powder replica 1851 handgun.
Was told Cash & carry. Is it because it's pre 1898?
FFL,Yes or NO?

Thank you
Take your own advice. I answered your question. Have a great day!

Dr Pete
10-23-2009, 12:09 PM
I appreciate the quick reply.

halifax
10-23-2009, 2:20 PM
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that.

I thought that someone could buy a new Uberti 1858 blackpowder revolver (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=722781)cash-and-carry, no DROS required. Then, they could buy the conversion cylinder (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=990984)cash-and-carry as well.

Damn, I wish I could remember who I heard that from. It did make sense at the time I heard it though.

Wouldn't one be building an un-registered handgun if one did what you said.

ke6guj
10-23-2009, 5:43 PM
Damn, I wish I could remember who I heard that from. It did make sense at the time I heard it though.
.


(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

They might have been talking about this, which does mention some muzzle loaders that can be converted to fire fixed ammo by swapping certain components, but the cylinder is not one of them.


Wouldn't one be building an un-registered handgun if one did what you said.perhaps, but that isn't illegal.