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View Full Version : I want to build a world where handguns are unnecessary


joelberg
10-23-2009, 6:11 AM
http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/2a-today-download.htm

"But I'm not going to delude myself into believing that guns aren't necessary" -Orthodox Jewish Rabbi

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/10c.htm

The second hyperlink will lead you to the interview that i'm quoting.

Can you say OWNED to the anti here?

I sent these links to a bunch of my "anti" friends and it's hard to disagree with an orthodox Jew on gun rights. Who can argue with 9/11, the holocaust, and antisemetic terrorism?

Good Stuff.

The Director
10-23-2009, 8:52 AM
Hey, I've always bantered about the flawed thought that:

"If you could somehow magically take away everyone's guns so that we were 100% certain that NO guns existed on planet earth, I'd give up mine".

Wait.....we did have those conditions on earth a little over 500 years ago....and at that time people had spears, clubs, crossbows, knives, maces, lances.....

The need for self defense probably goes back to when Neanderthals started packing rocks in their pockets "just in case".

locosway
10-23-2009, 9:04 AM
In a perfect world violence would not exist. However, being humans, violence is a part of us whether we like it or not. The technology of firearms has been learned by man, there is no unlearning this. Even if we did unlearn it, how long would it take to relearn this technology? Also, murders and violence happened before there were firearms around, just look at the bible for old, detailed, written history of murder and violence.

Since we can't remove guns from society, media (film, tv), other countries. Why try and stop it? Why pretend like weapons don't exist?

I understand some people are afraid of guns. That's understandable to an uninformed person. It seems almost magical, you pull a trigger and a heat seeking bullet kills the desired or undesired target(s). There were never these problems before people got away from learning firearms. When a firearm was an every day tool it wasn't feared, it was revered.

Most of America is still rural. Firearms are still a hunting tool for a lot of families. The idea that guns are suddenly bad now that we have our cities here and there is absurd. The right to defend ones self is always present, and the need arises for tens of thousands of people a year.

SgtDinosaur
10-23-2009, 9:36 AM
Even if by some miracle all my guns were taken away, I would still have plenty of weapons at hand. I will always look for an advantage.

armandolo
10-23-2009, 9:45 AM
...Who can argue with 9/11, the holocaust, and antisemetic terrorism?

Good Stuff.

Armenians, first were stripped of their guns in their own homeland by Ottoman Turks and massacred en mass (1.5 million) in whats known as the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

dwtt
10-23-2009, 10:02 AM
People who had relatives who went through the concentration camps during WWII are very progun and proself defense. They have the attitude that this will never be allowed to happen again. I had a Jewish neighbor when I was in college and she was one of those liberal tofu-and-cottage-cheese eating people in Berkeley, but she bought a Smith & Wesson .357 to protect herself. Quite a contrast.

dfletcher
10-23-2009, 10:21 AM
A world without handguns would still have children, senior citizens living alone and people with physical disadvantages. To take from them a viable defense under the premise we're all equally capable and equally safe is just incredible.

Too bad ADA can't be used for CCW.

hill billy
10-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Armenians, first were stripped of their guns in their own homeland by Ottoman Turks and massacred en mass (1.5 million) in whats known as the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

There's been a lot of them...

five.five-six
10-23-2009, 10:38 AM
IDK, if everyone had a rifle, who would need a pistol? I read somewhere, that the only value in a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have set down in the first place

MP301
10-23-2009, 12:01 PM
Disappearing all the guns would not change anything...not just because of the other weapons available.... A firearm is the ONLY equalization that has the ability to put a 115 lb woman on the same level as a 250 lb man.

If all the bad guys had only knifes or clubs, or even thier bare hands...guns would still be needed for protection against these predators. Even a regular person, in most cases depending on their experiences, usis rarely prepared to fend off a violent attack in hand to hand combat, even without weapons. Should they not be able to stop imminent life threatening attacks with the highest probability of success?

Guns are necessary and are here to stay, even in the impossibile event that someone waves a magic wand and somehow permantly removes firearms from the bad guys.

The old saying, "God created man.....(insert your brand) made them equal" is probably one of the most profound slogans ever invented...

OlderThanDirt
10-23-2009, 1:00 PM
People will always be people, with or without guns.

Cokebottle
10-23-2009, 1:37 PM
It's a simple impossibility.
The cat's out of the bag.
The governments could go door to door and confiscate every single firearm in the world.

Within a week, criminals would again have firearms unless the governments also confiscate all lathes and mills.

Scratch705
10-23-2009, 2:32 PM
It's a simple impossibility.
The cat's out of the bag.
The governments could go door to door and confiscate every single firearm in the world.

Within a week, criminals would again have firearms unless the governments also confiscate all lathes and mills.

don't you mean the criminals would just buy it from government personnel that is looking to pay off gambling debts or make extra cash on the side?

there are a lot of people that can be bought for a right price.

Cokebottle
10-23-2009, 2:46 PM
don't you mean the criminals would just buy it from government personnel that is looking to pay off gambling debts or make extra cash on the side?
I was operating under the utopian assumption that the government is 100% white and pure and everyone except criminals would follow the law 100% (since the gun grabbers seem to believe that even criminals will follow new laws).

Yes, the reality is that criminals would use the same illegal sources that they use today (and add fabrication to their list of sources), and the LACs on Calguns would become criminals by fabricating their own PD weapons.

E Pluribus Unum
10-23-2009, 2:58 PM
Even in a (theoretical) perfect society, guns will still be required to prevent oppression by the government. Guns will always be needed to keep the peace, even if there is some, someday.

Turo
10-23-2009, 3:46 PM
It's a simple impossibility.
The cat's out of the bag.
The governments could go door to door and confiscate every single firearm in the world.

Within a week, criminals would again have firearms unless the governments also confiscate all lathes and mills.

Lol, I always laughed at the "if all guns disappeared" idea, because my dad owns a machine shop, and anything they can make disappear, I can recreate given enough time.

Lol heck I think a few air guns have even been made there.

Dwight K. Schrute
10-23-2009, 3:52 PM
I think I read in someone's signature, possibly here, that if politicians existed way back when Cain killed Abel, there would be a 10 day waiting period on rocks.

joelberg
10-23-2009, 4:09 PM
Dunno where anybody got the "what if all guns disappeared" idea from.

He said where guns are unnecessary, not non-existant.

yellowfin
10-23-2009, 5:27 PM
I suppose I wouldn't have a need for handguns if I had SBR's and AOW's to take their place. I'll gladly carry a Krink or 10mm MP5k if that'll let those who are insecure about me carrying a 1911 feel better. See, I can be reasonable, right?

radioman
10-23-2009, 6:56 PM
Even if there were no guns the world would be unsafe.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-23-2009, 6:59 PM
Not understanding a Rabbi hoping that someday handguns will be unnecessary, given what happened to Jews for a long time didn't require a gun.

joelberg
10-24-2009, 8:38 AM
Not understanding a Rabbi hoping that someday handguns will be unnecessary, given what happened to Jews for a long time didn't require a gun.

The point is that defensive tools should be unnecessary because nobody is initiating violence.

And I agree. I would love to live in a world that didn't incentivize me to purchase deadly weapons due to crime and genocide. But the fact is that we do live in that world, and he is recognizing it, and if you listen to the interview you will find that he is a hardcore 2nd Amendment supporter.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-24-2009, 11:49 AM
The point is that defensive tools should be unnecessary because nobody is initiating violence.

And I agree. I would love to live in a world that didn't incentivize me to purchase deadly weapons due to crime and genocide. But the fact is that we do live in that world, and he is recognizing it, and if you listen to the interview you will find that he is a hardcore 2nd Amendment supporter.

I understand him being a 2nd Amendment supporter, but the nuance of "because we don't live in a perfect world" completely misses the point. Even if the world was perfect, the presence of guns would not change that perfection. I find that argument (as long as the world is violent) to be stupid and self-defeating, since it infers that firearms would have no purpose in a 'perfect' state. That's a bunch of b-o-l-o-g-n-a.

joelberg
10-24-2009, 12:16 PM
I understand him being a 2nd Amendment supporter, but the nuance of "because we don't live in a perfect world" completely misses the point. Even if the world was perfect, the presence of guns would not change that perfection. I find that argument (as long as the world is violent) to be stupid and self-defeating, since it infers that firearms would have no purpose in a 'perfect' state. That's a bunch of b-o-l-o-g-n-a.

It says "unnecessary" not "non-existant". I don't know where people got the idea that guns wouldn't exist just because they are "unnecessary".

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-24-2009, 12:18 PM
It says "unnecessary" not "non-existant". I don't know where people got the idea that guns wouldn't exist just because they are "unnecessary".

A handgun will never be unnecessary-that's the entire point. It's a quick step to eliminate something when it no longer deemed useful or "necessary". Catch my drift?

M. Sage
10-24-2009, 12:24 PM
IDK, if everyone had a rifle, who would need a pistol? I read somewhere, that the only value in a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have set down in the first place

You need a secondary, man! What happens when the rifle goes "click" (the loudest sound in a gunfight)? It's faster to bring a pistol on line to buy yourself space to find out what's wrong with your rifle than it is to sit down and try fixing that double-feed or popped primer in your AR.

joelberg
10-24-2009, 4:10 PM
A handgun will never be unnecessary-that's the entire point. It's a quick step to eliminate something when it no longer deemed useful or "necessary". Catch my drift?

Well I ride motorcycles and they certainly aren't "necessary". But I see where you're coming from and will agree to disagree.

tombinghamthegreat
10-24-2009, 4:29 PM
Mikhail Kalashnikov might have come close to having a world not needing handguns?

joelberg
10-24-2009, 6:10 PM
Mikhail Kalashnikov might have come close to having a world not needing handguns?

lol are you saying all anyone needs is an AK47?

I can dig that.

Cokebottle
10-24-2009, 6:33 PM
lol are you saying all anyone needs is an AK47?

I can dig that.
Between the rifle and pistol variants... quite possibly ;)

yellowfin
10-24-2009, 6:51 PM
Dunno, even with a 74SU I'd still want a Makarov as well. Both great guns.

Cos
10-25-2009, 12:07 AM
Somehow I feel very cautious (for a lack of better word) about people who want to build a new world for all. I'm not saying they want to play god or something: sure this particular guy wishes us all the best and all that, but somehow the law of unintended consequences proves these folks wrong time and again :-(

Shall I call any specific names to backup my point? I guess not - these names are well known to any educated person.

dantodd
10-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Somehow I feel very cautious (for a lack of better word) about people who want to build a new world for all. I'm not saying they want to play god or something: sure this particular guy wishes us all the best and all that, but somehow the law of unintended consequences proves these folks wrong time and again :-(

Shall I call any specific names to backup my point? I guess not - these names are well known to any educated person.

To whom are you directing this post? If the OP, did you read the actual articles?

Cos
10-25-2009, 12:28 AM
Yes, I'm directing it to OP. And yes - I've read the actual interview.